EPTI'm just pointing out how clueless and ignorant you are. Have you played beta after patch? Have you tried new openings mech TvP? Do you realize how big it is for Terran to be safe against 1base Protoss with mech opening? Do you think at all before jumping on the bandwagon?
Beta Balance Update #11 (Jan 9, 2013) - Page 40
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
I'm just pointing out how clueless and ignorant you are. Have you played beta after patch? Have you tried new openings mech TvP? Do you realize how big it is for Terran to be safe against 1base Protoss with mech opening? Do you think at all before jumping on the bandwagon? | ||
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Sc2Null
United States3754 Posts
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monsta
172 Posts
no techlab for reaper? dafuq no siege upgrade for siege mode? dafuq DAFUQ!?!? | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On January 10 2013 22:57 Sc2Null wrote: my concern is, why are they pushing mech so hard. They are saying: don't go bio, go mech or else. Like..I don't understand why blizzard is purposely trying to drive the metagame. It's not driving the metagame if one style of play is 10x worse against everything than the other is. | ||
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lardlord
United States22 Posts
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On January 10 2013 22:57 Sc2Null wrote: my concern is, why are they pushing mech so hard. They are saying: don't go bio, go mech or else. Like..I don't understand why blizzard is purposely trying to drive the metagame. No, they are just making other tech paths more accesible, which is a good, good, good thing.. They are not driving anything. Bio is more then viable both in WoL and HotS, so what is wrong making other units also more viable? | ||
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MarcH
United Kingdom362 Posts
On January 10 2013 22:57 Sc2Null wrote: my concern is, why are they pushing mech so hard. They are saying: don't go bio, go mech or else. Like..I don't understand why blizzard is purposely trying to drive the metagame. They arent trying to get rid of bio they are trying to give T the option of mech in all matchups as at the moment it is not. | ||
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FS_SlimJim
29 Posts
On January 10 2013 23:01 MarcH wrote: They arent trying to get rid of bio they are trying to give T the option of mech in all matchups as at the moment it is not. Truth status. It is in TvZ ofc with this siege mode change (since tier1 harass from zerg is dead as a result). I do want them to buff siege tank damage too, but at a cost of longer transitions between modes. And WM still need addressing... | ||
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Glorfindel21
France51 Posts
Problem is, that adressing builds in such an obivous way is somehow admit it's really hard to balance tank without making it OP in TvZ, which is logical. But the flaw here is as follows : they quite hope that toss army will be small enough(toss dev. tech)/toss tech will be low enough (toss dev. army) with the safe build to prevent mech-all-in from toss, THAT, later in the game, the toss can't totally obliterate a mech army. So what they changed is not the cost-effectiveness of protoss armies vs mech terran (expected change), but the number of units/tech of toss army at the moment of the fight. BUT, it won't make any solution for the late game, when both armies have only their cost-effectiveness in play. So late game terran vs late game toss (assuming both have full upgraded tech), with still be highly in toss favor in any direct fight. But why not. | ||
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KamikazeDurrrp
United States95 Posts
On January 10 2013 22:25 Everlong wrote: Wrong. They are making mech openings more viable by lowering tech requirements for mech units to hold allins and by enabling offensive builds. This is good for 2 reasons: 1) You can play greedy now going for quick 3cc, because with Siege Tanks and Widow Mines, you are able to lock down areas pretty quickly now. MsC no longer detecting makes WM very potent early game against Protoss and free siege tech is not only making you safe early on, but it allowes for quick armory or second factory, which means additional units, faster Thor or upgrades. All of this snowballs into better economy, infrastructure and transitions overall. So yeah, you don't get +25 dmg for Tank, but mech play generally is better. You can use the saved gas for Ghosts as well. You have free siege tech and you don't need blue flame so badly. That is a lot of gas. 2) You can actually go offensive now playing mech. This is one of the most significant changes this patch allowes you to do. Of course, mass Tempest/Templar/Carrier is difficult to deal with 30 tanks, but guess what, now you can just go kill him the second you see 2-3 Stargates or Fleet Beacon. So please, don't just write something without thinking. It's already like 30+ pages of pure whining because Blizzard did not buff Tank in a way people want. edit: Also, it is mind blowing for me to see people like Beastyqt and Avilo to try mech TvP, build Hellion/Tank, get destroyed by Zealot/Immortal/Archon and claim it doesn't work and that they won't mech TvP ever again. The fuck? Get Ghost, Mines, Ravens, Banshees.. Mech being "Hellion/Tank" doesn't work we fucking know it from WoL. So stop trying the same shit again, again and again. Accept what Blizzard said, they want mech to be used with support from Barracks (Ghosts) and/or Starport (Viking/Banshee/Raven), so go and use it. You don't just build Marines/Marauders in TvP, right? The problem's not about viability, it's about precedent. The whole point of having such upgrades in the first place was to promote a playstyle, and make it so that using that specific playstyle required an investment, thus once your investments paid off, it gave you more leeway. When I don't have to research siege tech to use siege tanks all the tension that used to be there trying to researching seige tech is immediately lost. And why should we stop at siege tanks in order to make units more viable? Why not just give roaches the speed upgrade from the beginning, it makes it easier to defend, AND gives you more offensive options in the early game. Why not just give marines their stim and combat shield upgrades from the start? Why don't we just give colossus their 9 range from the start? Waiting for colossus range is boring, and colossus obviously need more ways to be viable offensively. PLUS you can be greedy with 9 range colossus too! I mean, does it make sense to anyone that people should be allowed to access higher tech WHILE being greedy at the same time? Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of being "greedy"? And the fact that this shuts down most all-in? Again, we want to reduce the STRENGTH of all-ins, not completely remove the viability of them. I mean, I'm just shocked. I've never seen a change more antithesis to what Starcraft is supposed to be about. Is this really what it takes to achieve balance? I guess I'm just ignorant and don't know anything at this point. | ||
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Elendur
Canada43 Posts
On January 10 2013 22:35 TeslasPigeon wrote: I don't disagree with what you are saying, but it seems so sad that they would remove upgrades in order to do this. Upgrades are what make the game fun and add another layer of complexity. If you want to allow mech to be more offensive, surely there are better ways than stripping upgrades? What about allowing rax before depot? This would introduce quicker factory timings without stripping upgrades. But wouldn't that strengthen two rax pushes and potentially create other issues as well? Free useful mech upgrades early on saving 250/250 (assuming that is the case) is almost like getting two free mules very early in the game. Or, why not say we are getting two free scans if that helps more? How does that not help every Terran mech-ing player that is somewhat able to adapt to seize an advantage that helps in winning the game, early, mid-game or late? (so long as you put it to your advantage by pressuring at some point, directly or by expanding, teching, etc.) Why do we need to be given an upgrade path choice that is always researched by default (whether mech or bio)? Who doesn't get siege tech relatively early? Maybe I am wrong here, but it seems fairly obvious to me that they are kind of giving us two free mules worth of research early on without making rax only builds OP. They are trying to give all terrans going beyond raxes a nice boost should they be wise enough to see the benefit and use it to put themselves in a better position for the rest of the game. Also, they are making it so mech can get more benefit out of the free tech than other builds as arguably you are even more likely to otherwise get those upgrades if you are going mech. No sense arguing too heavily on this until we see results at the pro level. But getting useful things for free early on has to change the playstyle of other races to some degree. Again, just go back to how the Queen changes had an impact on what Terran/Protoss would do as harassment in the first part of the game. You can't deny it made a difference and pushed late game zerg into a better position as a result of droning harder, etc. My 2 cents...  | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
I think that in Starcraft 2 it is often the case that there are scenarios in the game that don't require too much skill to execute, that are very well understood by virtue of being at the center of the metagame, and which will always give advantage to one race. Because for these scenarios the difficulty of the game has essentially disappeared, the influence that map and race imbalance have is more pronounced. If the game would require more skill then there would be less complaints about imbalance. In Starcraft 2 a 55% winrate for ZvT means that Euro zergs are favored against top Korean terrans, but in Brood War they would still lose simply because of the skill difference. I don't see how anything Blizzard does is addressing this core issue, instead of fiddling around with upgrade timings they should rather focus on the relation between unit design and things like economy and map design. | ||
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summerloud
Austria1201 Posts
i thought the generally accepted pattern was that good patches and horrible patches alternate so what gives us this monstrosity after the complete failure of the last patch? most changes seem to be utterly retarded and accomplish exactly the opposite of what was stated as goal goal: make reapers viable all game but not too strong early game blizzard solution: make them suck all game but make it easier to get them very early goal: make mech viable without making timing pushes too strong blizzard solution: change nothing about the tank but get rid of siege upgrade to make them more useful for early timing pushes community outraged about fungal growth range change blizzard solution: keep the absurd range but nerf the damage slightly like that would matter at all even though i like the changes to raven and that cadaceus reactor is gone (would have prefered a nerf than to cut better healing completely though), this patch still is a huge, huge disappointment blizzard said they will look into mech and this is what we get. no change to thor, no change to widow mine, no improvement of mech anti-air, no buff to tank except for cutting the upgrade which will do nothing but make them better for timing pushes and actually work against any possible buffs horrible, horrible, horrible. time to cancel my pre-order i guess... | ||
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shubcraft
Germany145 Posts
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On January 10 2013 23:13 KamikazeDurrrp wrote: The problem's not about viability, it's about precedent. The whole point of having such upgrades in the first place was to promote a playstyle, and make it so that using that specific playstyle required an investment, thus once your investments paid off, it gave you more leeway. When I don't have to research siege tech to use siege tanks all the tension that used to be there trying to researching seige tech is immediately lost. And why should we stop at siege tanks in order to make units more viable? Why not just give roaches the speed upgrade from the beginning, it makes it easier to defend, AND gives you more offensive options in the early game. Why not just give marines their stim and combat shield upgrades from the start? Why don't we just give colossus their 9 range from the start? Waiting for colossus range is boring, and colossus obviously need more ways to be viable offensively. PLUS you can be greedy with 9 range colossus too! I mean, does it make sense to anyone that people should be allowed to access higher tech WHILE being greedy at the same time? Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of being "greedy"? And the fact that this shuts down most all-in? Again, we want to reduce the STRENGTH of all-ins, not completely remove the viability of them. I mean, I'm just shocked. I've never seen a change more antithesis to what Starcraft is supposed to be about. Is this really what it takes to achieve balance? I guess I'm just ignorant and don't know anything at this point. I'll just quote myself: "I agree, but at this point I work with what I get. I'm not going to pretend Blizzard is about to buff Tank + 25dmg, because this is not going to happen. They are offering us this different route and I accept it. You might either cry about how badly they are balancing TvP mech, or you can go explore stuff that is possible now and oh boy, is it a new game with all those changes." See, I'm just happy I might not need to research stim now in TvP.. Also, you are exaggerating a bit, it's not like I start with 3 BCs patroling around my base now. | ||
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BerthaG
France74 Posts
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
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Elendur
Canada43 Posts
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Kvassten
Sweden159 Posts
On January 10 2013 23:33 Everlong wrote: I mean, instead of having slightly more powerfull mech units overall, you are going to have more of them, faster, more upgraded and overall better mix of them.. How come nobody sees that? They just took this different route and instead of buffing Tank's damage directly, they made it so that you can rely on them faster, which snowballs into better economy, and so on. Same goes with Hellbat. Free siege tech and blue flame (kinda) is like 250/250? That is Academy + Ghost right? Well, now you have ghost/mech going fairly soon.. What's up with your Immortals? I agree with this. I don't really think you can buff siege tank damage without destroying TvZ and TvT. Zerg won't be able to do that much and Bio in TvT won't be viable if you buff siege damage. | ||
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