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On January 10 2013 22:53 BerthaG wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 22:49 Everlong wrote:On January 10 2013 22:45 BerthaG wrote:On January 10 2013 22:40 Cloak wrote:
Such early timings on the mine is going to be hurtful. Detection pressure is too strenuous. Obs too fragile to be consistent detector. Terran get infiniscan, zerg get 0 supply spam Overseers, what do protoss get? -5 hp little paper air plane bullshitters. Paper air plane bullshitter costing 75 gaz a delaying colosus or immo, forcing robo. I want a fucking detector like other race... add a observer on nexus with no cloak and we good. Ok, you are going to get 200gas flying paper air plane bullshitter @Stargate tech, deal?? No deal, I want a no gaz detection and no teck path. Look scan look overcire.... want the same as other race that it. Don t want oracle detection they can stuck it when the sun does not shine.
FFS either u start playing other races or you let it be.
If you want to have everything the same in every race, then we don't need different races anymore.
Why do you keep mentioning the observer/detector problem. I already told you: it was the same in Brood War and there it was considered 100% balanced.
Beside that, I personally would like 100x more to have a cheap observer which lasts very long if not the entire game, than scanning, maybe seing nothing, thus wasting a mule or ~270 minerals mined less.
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On January 10 2013 22:55 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 22:52 Wildmoon wrote:On January 10 2013 22:50 Everlong wrote:On January 10 2013 22:47 Wildmoon wrote:
This patch doesn't fucking fix anything about TvP. Are they dumb or what? The fuck? Tanks don't do 400 dmg now? How am I supposed to mech TvP? Cancelled preorder.. What are you talking about? I'm just pointing out how clueless and ignorant you are. Have you played beta after patch? Have you tried new openings mech TvP? Do you realize how big it is for Terran to be safe against 1base Protoss with mech opening? Do you think at all before jumping on the bandwagon?
who's being ignorant.
He is talking about mech in TvP over the whole game, not a early push bei either side
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is there some build order tester in the beta, if so i dont seem to find it, wanna test out some things without actually playing a full game 
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On January 10 2013 23:33 Everlong wrote:
They just took this different route and instead of buffing Tank's damage directly, they made it so that you can rely on them faster, which snowballs into better economy, and so on.
Without taking anything away from your post, people have to keep in mind that all that matters is "...into better economy, relatively speaking". I know as a Zerg player that I might not be able to drone so hard or delay my roach warren so long in favor of more drones, if that siege tank is going to set up behind that bunker quite a bit earlier. How will I know such a push is coming? I might not. I mean, what zerg is suprised to see a siege tank come down a terran ramp?
So... more SCV's to drone count. Who doesn't see that will help the 200/200 terran army win a battle? Why is it so different in the protoss matchup? Maybe you salvage that bunker earlier or skip more marines to slam down that 3rd CC a minute earlier since that siege tank just came out of the factory and is sieging on the high ground beside that low ground bunker? Dump the saved resources into tech or another CC (which will also give mules throughout the game)...
Just speculating on the numbers but what if that results in a 200/200 terran versus 160/200 toss rather than 180/200 on toss side? What if it means an extra medivac drop that kills 8 probes (for free) a bit later on in the game (snowball effect)? I think that is what Everlong is trying to explain in broad terms.
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On January 10 2013 23:40 Rollora wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 22:55 Everlong wrote:On January 10 2013 22:52 Wildmoon wrote:On January 10 2013 22:50 Everlong wrote:On January 10 2013 22:47 Wildmoon wrote:
This patch doesn't fucking fix anything about TvP. Are they dumb or what? The fuck? Tanks don't do 400 dmg now? How am I supposed to mech TvP? Cancelled preorder.. What are you talking about? I'm just pointing out how clueless and ignorant you are. Have you played beta after patch? Have you tried new openings mech TvP? Do you realize how big it is for Terran to be safe against 1base Protoss with mech opening? Do you think at all before jumping on the bandwagon? who's being ignorant. He is talking about mech in TvP over the whole game, not a early push bei either side
Like I said before: queen range was an early game change, only affecting the viability of early aggression, and look how profound an effect that had on Zerg's ability to prepare for the late game.
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Wow. Some really crazy changes here
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On January 10 2013 23:26 BerthaG wrote:
Worst of all: Helion... Should be haras unit like banchies dts or mutas, if you failed it your are behind because there are bad in strain fight but here no just click and waooo new unit .... This is so wrong.
Well its a click, then it taks some time and then the same unit has a different function and it suddenly has a different name (i don't know why, cause they just could call it assault mode or so)
Why is it wrong? It is part of the game ever since Starcraft exists. Its like with siege tanks: Unsieged-> damage single target. Sieged -> splash damage, cannot target close units. Completely different unit/function by just a click.
All you do throughout this thread is whine around about everything. Oh the others got imba units, imba detection blablabla.
On January 10 2013 23:44 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 23:40 Rollora wrote:On January 10 2013 22:55 Everlong wrote:On January 10 2013 22:52 Wildmoon wrote:On January 10 2013 22:50 Everlong wrote:On January 10 2013 22:47 Wildmoon wrote:
This patch doesn't fucking fix anything about TvP. Are they dumb or what? The fuck? Tanks don't do 400 dmg now? How am I supposed to mech TvP? Cancelled preorder.. What are you talking about? I'm just pointing out how clueless and ignorant you are. Have you played beta after patch? Have you tried new openings mech TvP? Do you realize how big it is for Terran to be safe against 1base Protoss with mech opening? Do you think at all before jumping on the bandwagon? who's being ignorant. He is talking about mech in TvP over the whole game, not a early push bei either side Like I said before: queen range was an early game change, only affecting the viability of early aggression, and look how profound an effect that had on Zerg's ability to prepare for the late game.
while i can agree with that, it still doesn't solve the problem, that mech as a whole is still inefficient vs protoss.
I can only tell you in a 15 minute game vs toss, lets pretend i play mech, i don't give a shit about a 100/100 research I had to do before.
It just changes the timing of my first sieged tanks. OFC i can push earlier now with 1-1-1 or defend better. But how does it help T over long term?
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On January 10 2013 23:21 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 23:13 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On January 10 2013 22:25 Everlong wrote:On January 10 2013 22:06 Jerom wrote:
Blizzard doesn't seem to understand why mech in TvP doesn't work. They don't have a single clue about what should happen to make it work it seems. Wrong. They are making mech openings more viable by lowering tech requirements for mech units to hold allins and by enabling offensive builds. This is good for 2 reasons: 1) You can play greedy now going for quick 3cc, because with Siege Tanks and Widow Mines, you are able to lock down areas pretty quickly now. MsC no longer detecting makes WM very potent early game against Protoss and free siege tech is not only making you safe early on, but it allowes for quick armory or second factory, which means additional units, faster Thor or upgrades. All of this snowballs into better economy, infrastructure and transitions overall. So yeah, you don't get +25 dmg for Tank, but mech play generally is better. You can use the saved gas for Ghosts as well. You have free siege tech and you don't need blue flame so badly. That is a lot of gas. 2) You can actually go offensive now playing mech. This is one of the most significant changes this patch allowes you to do. Of course, mass Tempest/Templar/Carrier is difficult to deal with 30 tanks, but guess what, now you can just go kill him the second you see 2-3 Stargates or Fleet Beacon. So please, don't just write something without thinking. It's already like 30+ pages of pure whining because Blizzard did not buff Tank in a way people want. edit: Also, it is mind blowing for me to see people like Beastyqt and Avilo to try mech TvP, build Hellion/Tank, get destroyed by Zealot/Immortal/Archon and claim it doesn't work and that they won't mech TvP ever again. The fuck? Get Ghost, Mines, Ravens, Banshees.. Mech being "Hellion/Tank" doesn't work we fucking know it from WoL. So stop trying the same shit again, again and again. Accept what Blizzard said, they want mech to be used with support from Barracks (Ghosts) and/or Starport (Viking/Banshee/Raven), so go and use it. You don't just build Marines/Marauders in TvP, right? The problem's not about viability, it's about precedent. The whole point of having such upgrades in the first place was to promote a playstyle, and make it so that using that specific playstyle required an investment, thus once your investments paid off, it gave you more leeway. When I don't have to research siege tech to use siege tanks all the tension that used to be there trying to researching seige tech is immediately lost. And why should we stop at siege tanks in order to make units more viable? Why not just give roaches the speed upgrade from the beginning, it makes it easier to defend, AND gives you more offensive options in the early game. Why not just give marines their stim and combat shield upgrades from the start? Why don't we just give colossus their 9 range from the start? Waiting for colossus range is boring, and colossus obviously need more ways to be viable offensively. PLUS you can be greedy with 9 range colossus too! I mean, does it make sense to anyone that people should be allowed to access higher tech WHILE being greedy at the same time? Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of being "greedy"? And the fact that this shuts down most all-in? Again, we want to reduce the STRENGTH of all-ins, not completely remove the viability of them. I mean, I'm just shocked. I've never seen a change more antithesis to what Starcraft is supposed to be about. Is this really what it takes to achieve balance? I guess I'm just ignorant and don't know anything at this point. I'll just quote myself: "I agree, but at this point I work with what I get. I'm not going to pretend Blizzard is about to buff Tank + 25dmg, because this is not going to happen. They are offering us this different route and I accept it. You might either cry about how badly they are balancing TvP mech, or you can go explore stuff that is possible now and oh boy, is it a new game with all those changes." See, I'm just happy I might not need to research stim now in TvP.. Also, you are exaggerating a bit, it's not like I start with 3 BCs patroling around my base now.
That was the entire point of my post. Why are we even trying to call this Starcraft at this point? We should just call it "turtle till deathball versus deathball with huge explosions game" now. And WTF with the "3 BCs patrolling around my base"? People are already comparing this to the queen patch as a "good" thing. No, it's not "3 BCs patolling my base", but it's still a change that completely changes the dynamic of the game. You even mentioned it yourself. "Now I don't have to research stim! Now it's so much easier to defend all-ins! Now I can push earlier AND be a lot stronger with it! Now I can be greedy AND have the benefits of higher tech!" People used the exact same argument to defend the queen patch and look where it's gotten us: one-dimensional games, the loss of early-mid game dynamic interaction and the slow death of what had the potential to be a great game. Why does it matter if it's supposedly "balanced" or "makes more compositions viable"?
I mean, instead of having slightly more powerfull mech units overall, you are going to have more of them, faster, more upgraded and overall better mix of them.. How come nobody sees that? They just took this different route and instead of buffing Tank's damage directly, they made it so that you can rely on them faster, which snowballs into better economy, and so on. Same goes with Hellbat. Free siege tech and blue flame (kinda) is like 250/250? That is Academy + Ghost right? Well, now you have ghost/mech going fairly soon.. What's up with your Immortals?
Sigh, I give up.
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Ok Im just guessing but I dont think that the solution to "making mech viable" is to make better all-ins or easy early agresion. Even if you have new openings to be more greedy with some siege defense at the end I fear that HoTS will be more like "If Mech terran push before min X, T wins, otherwise T lose".
Removing siege tech will not change much mid-late game, and reaper nerf will make him like the "Neosteel Frame" upgrade in pro games.
Lets hope not, Im looking forward to make some tests.
Can anyone create a post with some facts like this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=389830 with new timings, reaper dps, etc...?
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On January 10 2013 23:52 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 23:21 Everlong wrote:On January 10 2013 23:13 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On January 10 2013 22:25 Everlong wrote:On January 10 2013 22:06 Jerom wrote:
Blizzard doesn't seem to understand why mech in TvP doesn't work. They don't have a single clue about what should happen to make it work it seems. Wrong. They are making mech openings more viable by lowering tech requirements for mech units to hold allins and by enabling offensive builds. This is good for 2 reasons: 1) You can play greedy now going for quick 3cc, because with Siege Tanks and Widow Mines, you are able to lock down areas pretty quickly now. MsC no longer detecting makes WM very potent early game against Protoss and free siege tech is not only making you safe early on, but it allowes for quick armory or second factory, which means additional units, faster Thor or upgrades. All of this snowballs into better economy, infrastructure and transitions overall. So yeah, you don't get +25 dmg for Tank, but mech play generally is better. You can use the saved gas for Ghosts as well. You have free siege tech and you don't need blue flame so badly. That is a lot of gas. 2) You can actually go offensive now playing mech. This is one of the most significant changes this patch allowes you to do. Of course, mass Tempest/Templar/Carrier is difficult to deal with 30 tanks, but guess what, now you can just go kill him the second you see 2-3 Stargates or Fleet Beacon. So please, don't just write something without thinking. It's already like 30+ pages of pure whining because Blizzard did not buff Tank in a way people want. edit: Also, it is mind blowing for me to see people like Beastyqt and Avilo to try mech TvP, build Hellion/Tank, get destroyed by Zealot/Immortal/Archon and claim it doesn't work and that they won't mech TvP ever again. The fuck? Get Ghost, Mines, Ravens, Banshees.. Mech being "Hellion/Tank" doesn't work we fucking know it from WoL. So stop trying the same shit again, again and again. Accept what Blizzard said, they want mech to be used with support from Barracks (Ghosts) and/or Starport (Viking/Banshee/Raven), so go and use it. You don't just build Marines/Marauders in TvP, right? The problem's not about viability, it's about precedent. The whole point of having such upgrades in the first place was to promote a playstyle, and make it so that using that specific playstyle required an investment, thus once your investments paid off, it gave you more leeway. When I don't have to research siege tech to use siege tanks all the tension that used to be there trying to researching seige tech is immediately lost. And why should we stop at siege tanks in order to make units more viable? Why not just give roaches the speed upgrade from the beginning, it makes it easier to defend, AND gives you more offensive options in the early game. Why not just give marines their stim and combat shield upgrades from the start? Why don't we just give colossus their 9 range from the start? Waiting for colossus range is boring, and colossus obviously need more ways to be viable offensively. PLUS you can be greedy with 9 range colossus too! I mean, does it make sense to anyone that people should be allowed to access higher tech WHILE being greedy at the same time? Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of being "greedy"? And the fact that this shuts down most all-in? Again, we want to reduce the STRENGTH of all-ins, not completely remove the viability of them. I mean, I'm just shocked. I've never seen a change more antithesis to what Starcraft is supposed to be about. Is this really what it takes to achieve balance? I guess I'm just ignorant and don't know anything at this point. I'll just quote myself: "I agree, but at this point I work with what I get. I'm not going to pretend Blizzard is about to buff Tank + 25dmg, because this is not going to happen. They are offering us this different route and I accept it. You might either cry about how badly they are balancing TvP mech, or you can go explore stuff that is possible now and oh boy, is it a new game with all those changes." See, I'm just happy I might not need to research stim now in TvP.. Also, you are exaggerating a bit, it's not like I start with 3 BCs patroling around my base now. That was the entire point of my post. Why are we even trying to call this Starcraft at this point? We should just call it "turtle till deathball versus deathball with huge explosions game" now. And WTF with the "3 BCs patrolling around my base"? People are already comparing this to the queen patch as a "good" thing. No, it's not "3 BCs patolling my base", but it's still a change that completely changes the dynamic of the game. You even mentioned it yourself. "Now I don't have to research stim! Now it's so much easier to defend all-ins! Now I can push earlier AND be a lot stronger with it! Now I can be greedy AND have the benefits of higher tech!" People used the exact same argument to defend the queen patch and look where it's gotten us: one-dimensional games, the loss of early-mid game dynamic interaction and the slow death of what had the potential to be a great game. Why does it matter if it's supposedly "balanced" or "makes more compositions viable"? Show nested quote +I mean, instead of having slightly more powerfull mech units overall, you are going to have more of them, faster, more upgraded and overall better mix of them.. How come nobody sees that? They just took this different route and instead of buffing Tank's damage directly, they made it so that you can rely on them faster, which snowballs into better economy, and so on. Same goes with Hellbat. Free siege tech and blue flame (kinda) is like 250/250? That is Academy + Ghost right? Well, now you have ghost/mech going fairly soon.. What's up with your Immortals? Sigh, I give up.
I'm sorry mate, we have different approach to the game. While I agree with your statements, I'm trying to see how mech could actually work within current HotS state. You are just bashing these same arguments against the wall again and again. I was in the same place. But I've moved on, because I live in reality.
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If anyone thinks the Siege Mode upgrade removal doesn't address late game TvP mech, you're partially right but mostly wrong.
Yeah, Protoss still soft counters tanks with every unit.
But the most important aspect of any late game strategy is actually not getting busted and blown to shit before you even take your third.
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On January 10 2013 23:56 drkcid wrote:Ok Im just guessing but I dont think that the solution to "making mech viable" is to make better all-ins or easy early agresion. Even if you have new openings to be more greedy with some siege defense at the end I fear that HoTS will be more like "If Mech terran push before min X, T wins, otherwise T lose". Removing siege tech will not change much mid-late game, and reaper nerf will make him like the "Neosteel Frame" upgrade in pro games. Lets hope not, Im looking forward to make some tests. Can anyone create a post with some facts like this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=389830 with new timings, reaper dps, etc...?
Sure, it makes aggression with siege tanks a bit easier, and also you almost get a "free" tank if you go for the exact same build as before. But it also makes greedy play easier with tanks. The greedier you are early on, the better you become in the late game. It's like someone pointed out earlier in this thread that it could be similar to the Queen buff, which magically made all zergs "op". This is because of early greed. The very same could happen for terran with this tank buff.
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On January 11 2013 00:23 Millet wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 10 2013 23:56 drkcid wrote:Ok Im just guessing but I dont think that the solution to "making mech viable" is to make better all-ins or easy early agresion. Even if you have new openings to be more greedy with some siege defense at the end I fear that HoTS will be more like "If Mech terran push before min X, T wins, otherwise T lose". Removing siege tech will not change much mid-late game, and reaper nerf will make him like the "Neosteel Frame" upgrade in pro games. Lets hope not, Im looking forward to make some tests. Can anyone create a post with some facts like this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=389830 with new timings, reaper dps, etc...? Sure, it makes aggression with siege tanks a bit easier, and also you almost get a "free" tank if you go for the exact same build as before. But it also makes greedy play easier with tanks. The greedier you are early on, the better you become in the late game. It's like someone pointed out earlier in this thread that it could be similar to the Queen buff, which magically made all zergs "op". This is because of early greed. The very same could happen for terran with this tank buff.
Of course the greedier you are early on, the better you become in the late game but Im not sure if you invest that extra income in mech play will give you extra posibilities against skytoss or inmortals. Im going to wait to see some replays.
And the reapers? “Won't somebody please think of the reapers?!” XD
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On January 10 2013 07:21 idkfa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 07:13 Iodem wrote:
Hellbat
Attack speed changed from 1.9 to 2.The Infernal Pre-Igniter upgrade no longer increases Hellbat weapon damage.Napalm Spray weapon damage increased from 10 +9 vs. light to 18 +12 vs. light.Splash damage radius decreased from 110 to 45.
Sigh. Does anyone at Blizzard know what an arc is?
No. Have you ever played the WoL campaign?
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It would seem the hellbat upgrade it too good against Zerg. Zerg must go roaches or die, and this is not a good way to promote different play.
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Jesus proxy tank so strong now TvT
And finally HSM energy reduced! I would have been happy with 100 but this works 
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Russian Federation216 Posts
with that siege tank buff (1-1-1 now 100 gas cheaper and faster) i feel like Blizzard really dont get what is mech in TvP.. problems with it starts after supplies pass 100 gap, and.. well.. thx i switched race from terrans, so now i just can say LOL GL TERRANZ
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Horrible, horrible patch.
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"The Vortex ability has been removed from the game."
So go remove Mothership right ?
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EPT
