|
Well people seem to miss what it does address in terms of mech TvP - surviving a 1 base all in.
It seems all well and good until you just get absolutely smashed by a blink all in etc.
Whilst I'm not entirely convinced, it should hopefully make that a bit easier and make you safer, maybe allowing you to pressure if toss gets greedy.
However it does little to change the late game situation of being facerolled despite a reasonable position (ie not surrounded by buildings / depots and they do a small flank, but still fully siege'd and prepared). It also doesn't address air.
It's still their first attempt though, maybe the ability to put pressure on will change things drastically, but I'm not sure.
|
On January 10 2013 22:15 adwodon wrote:
Well people seem to miss what it does address in terms of mech TvP - surviving a 1 base all in.
It seems all well and good until you just get absolutely smashed by a blink all in etc.
Whilst I'm not entirely convinced, it should hopefully make that a bit easier and make you safer, maybe allowing you to pressure if toss gets greedy.
However it does little to change the late game situation of being facerolled despite a reasonable position (ie not surrounded by buildings / depots and they do a small flank, but still fully siege'd and prepared). It also doesn't address air.
It's still their first attempt though, maybe the ability to put pressure on will change things drastically, but I'm not sure.
Yea, I'm sure they'll have more changes ready if this really really doesn't work. Like you say, hopefully this gives mech enough power to pressure back early on if protoss it too greedy. After all, it's quite boring to see a mech player turtle (with or without harass) til 4 bases while protoss takes like half his map. And it may be even more boring to play as those players, since the mech player is afraid of pushing out and especially early because he won't have all his tech up, and since protoss should know that. I hope there will be more interaction, I guess you could say.
|
On January 10 2013 22:06 Jerom wrote:
Blizzard doesn't seem to understand why mech in TvP doesn't work. They don't have a single clue about what should happen to make it work it seems.
Wrong. They are making mech openings more viable by lowering tech requirements for mech units to hold allins and by enabling offensive builds. This is good for 2 reasons:
1) You can play greedy now going for quick 3cc, because with Siege Tanks and Widow Mines, you are able to lock down areas pretty quickly now. MsC no longer detecting makes WM very potent early game against Protoss and free siege tech is not only making you safe early on, but it allowes for quick armory or second factory, which means additional units, faster Thor or upgrades. All of this snowballs into better economy, infrastructure and transitions overall. So yeah, you don't get +25 dmg for Tank, but mech play generally is better. You can use the saved gas for Ghosts as well. You have free siege tech and you don't need blue flame so badly. That is a lot of gas.
2) You can actually go offensive now playing mech. This is one of the most significant changes this patch allowes you to do. Of course, mass Tempest/Templar/Carrier is difficult to deal with 30 tanks, but guess what, now you can just go kill him the second you see 2-3 Stargates or Fleet Beacon.
So please, don't just write something without thinking. It's already like 30+ pages of pure whining because Blizzard did not buff Tank in a way people want.
edit: Also, it is mind blowing for me to see people like Beastyqt and Avilo to try mech TvP, build Hellion/Tank, get destroyed by Zealot/Immortal/Archon and claim it doesn't work and that they won't mech TvP ever again. The fuck? Get Ghost, Mines, Ravens, Banshees.. Mech being "Hellion/Tank" doesn't work we fucking know it from WoL. So stop trying the same shit again, again and again. Accept what Blizzard said, they want mech to be used with support from Barracks (Ghosts) and/or Starport (Viking/Banshee/Raven), so go and use it. You don't just build Marines/Marauders in TvP, right?
|
On January 10 2013 22:25 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 22:06 Jerom wrote:
Blizzard doesn't seem to understand why mech in TvP doesn't work. They don't have a single clue about what should happen to make it work it seems. Wrong. They are making mech openings more viable by lowering tech requirements for mech units to hold allins and by enabling offensive builds. This is good for 2 reasons: 1) You can play greedy now going for quick 3cc, because with Siege Tanks and Widow Mines, you are able to lock down areas pretty quickly now. MsC no longer detecting makes WM very potent early game against Protoss and free siege tech is not only making you safe early on, but it allowes for quick armory or second factory, which means additional units, faster Thor or upgrades. All of this snowballs into better economy, infrastructure and transitions overall. So yeah, you don't get +25 dmg for Tank, but mech play generally is better. You can use the saved gas for Ghosts as well. You have free siege tech and you don't need blue flame so badly. That is a lot of gas. 2) You can actually go offensive now playing mech. This is one of the most significant changes this patch allowes you to do. Of course, mass Tempest/Templar/Carrier is difficult to deal with 30 tanks, but guess what, now you can just go kill him the second you see 2-3 Stargates or Fleet Beacon. So please, don't just write something without thinking. It's already like 30+ pages of pure whining because Blizzard did not buff Tank in a way people want.
*sigh*
That advice about "posting without thinking" wasnt really necessary, because mech is not about "succeeding" but much more about "how you get there" and that includes a playstyle. Sure the changes make mech OPENINGS more viable, but what happens after the opening? You are back to the same old "doesnt work" shit we have seen for several years now.
The point why people are "whining" is that they want alternative playstyles and not to just win with different units in the same playstyle. That doesnt really give you an alternative to play or watch ...
|
On January 10 2013 22:25 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 22:06 Jerom wrote:
Blizzard doesn't seem to understand why mech in TvP doesn't work. They don't have a single clue about what should happen to make it work it seems. Wrong. They are making mech openings more viable by lowering tech requirements for mech units to hold allins and by enabling offensive builds. This is good for 2 reasons: 1) You can play greedy now going for quick 3cc, because with Siege Tanks and Widow Mines, you are able to lock down areas pretty quickly now. MsC no longer detecting makes WM very potent early game against Protoss and free siege tech is not only making you safe early on, but it allowes for quick armory or second factory, which means additional units, faster Thor or upgrades. All of this snowballs into better economy, infrastructure and transitions overall. So yeah, you don't get +25 dmg for Tank, but mech play generally is better. You can use the saved gas for Ghosts as well. You have free siege tech and you don't need blue flame so badly. That is a lot of gas. 2) You can actually go offensive now playing mech. This is one of the most significant changes this patch allowes you to do. Of course, mass Tempest/Templar/Carrier is difficult to deal with 30 tanks, but guess what, now you can just go kill him the second you see 2-3 Stargates or Fleet Beacon. So please, don't just write something without thinking. It's already like 30+ pages of pure whining because Blizzard did not buff Tank in a way people want.
Wow very well said, finally someone seems to see what I see. Not going to elaborate on anything since you said it so well.
I wonder if the 3 fact build ("gorapadong", sometimes 4 fact where you get reactor marine expand then get siege tanks + 2 more reactor BFH and leave at about 9:45) will be too strong in HotS. Without BF and Siege mode, you save a whoopin 250/250 resources, like holy shit!
And not only that, you don't even need to reactor marine expand anymore, since you get the siege tanks in siege mode quickly and can probably safetly 1 Rax gasless expand much of the time. Maybe you can even go 2 TL 2-3 Reactor Fact push at about 10 minutes with an armory finishing up by the time your hellions arrive.
Or depending on what protoss does, you could go for a BFH + siege tank push earlier than 10 minutes, just saving 100/100 from siege mode.
I guess this is just an example of how strong mech pushes can be, and how careful protoss has to be with their stargate builds. This makes me wonder if Blizzard ever wanted air toss to be a composition you can get throughout the whole game, versus what I thought they were going to do (mostly gateway like templar or robo tech, but with supporting air units). It seems it may be very hard to defend mech now if they just go all air + canons.
These changes seem to make protoss need more scouting overall. Like in my example, there's 2 variations there already. I hope this gives more interaction and choices in the MU before lategame.
On January 10 2013 22:33 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 22:25 Everlong wrote:On January 10 2013 22:06 Jerom wrote:
Blizzard doesn't seem to understand why mech in TvP doesn't work. They don't have a single clue about what should happen to make it work it seems. Wrong. They are making mech openings more viable by lowering tech requirements for mech units to hold allins and by enabling offensive builds. This is good for 2 reasons: 1) You can play greedy now going for quick 3cc, because with Siege Tanks and Widow Mines, you are able to lock down areas pretty quickly now. MsC no longer detecting makes WM very potent early game against Protoss and free siege tech is not only making you safe early on, but it allowes for quick armory or second factory, which means additional units, faster Thor or upgrades. All of this snowballs into better economy, infrastructure and transitions overall. So yeah, you don't get +25 dmg for Tank, but mech play generally is better. You can use the saved gas for Ghosts as well. You have free siege tech and you don't need blue flame so badly. That is a lot of gas. 2) You can actually go offensive now playing mech. This is one of the most significant changes this patch allowes you to do. Of course, mass Tempest/Templar/Carrier is difficult to deal with 30 tanks, but guess what, now you can just go kill him the second you see 2-3 Stargates or Fleet Beacon. So please, don't just write something without thinking. It's already like 30+ pages of pure whining because Blizzard did not buff Tank in a way people want. *sigh* That advice about "posting without thinking" wasnt really necessary, because mech is not about "succeeding" but much more about "how you get there" and that includes a playstyle. Sure the changes make mech OPENINGS more viable, but what happens after the opening? You are back to the same old "doesnt work" shit we have seen for several years now.
There isn't really a way to argue with what you're saying, unless you post more specifics on why the current buffs won't be enough to help later on. (Or maybe you did and I didn't see your post?)
Saving up to 250/250 early game is quite huge. That means you can safely get 3 fact and double armory upgrades up and not have to turtle for like 9000 minutes just to get your 3 fact going.
|
The Medivac heal beam upgrade didn't go as intended. We want players to use Hellbats as meat shields, but instead, players were just using Marines and Marauders.
The Hellbat changes in this patch should allow players to more easily combo Hellbats, no matter what army composition they’re creating in their games.
David Kim is as ridiculous as ever, marines and marauders share upgrades, while hellbats don't, and cannot stim to kite zealots or evade storms.
|
On January 10 2013 22:25 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 22:06 Jerom wrote:
Blizzard doesn't seem to understand why mech in TvP doesn't work. They don't have a single clue about what should happen to make it work it seems. Wrong. They are making mech openings more viable by lowering tech requirements for mech units to hold allins and by enabling offensive builds. This is good for 2 reasons: 1) You can play greedy now going for quick 3cc, because with Siege Tanks and Widow Mines, you are able to lock down areas pretty quickly now. MsC no longer detecting makes WM very potent early game against Protoss and free siege tech is not only making you safe early on, but it allowes for quick armory or second factory, which means additional units, faster Thor or upgrades. All of this snowballs into better economy, infrastructure and transitions overall. So yeah, you don't get +25 dmg for Tank, but mech play generally is better. You can use the saved gas for Ghosts as well. You have free siege tech and you don't need blue flame so badly. That is a lot of gas. 2) You can actually go offensive now playing mech. This is one of the most significant changes this patch allowes you to do. Of course, mass Tempest/Templar/Carrier is difficult to deal with 30 tanks, but guess what, now you can just go kill him the second you see 2-3 Stargates or Fleet Beacon. So please, don't just write something without thinking. It's already like 30+ pages of pure whining because Blizzard did not buff Tank in a way people want.
I don't disagree with what you are saying, but it seems so sad that they would remove upgrades in order to do this. Upgrades are what make the game fun and add another layer of complexity.
If you want to allow mech to be more offensive, surely there are better ways than stripping upgrades? What about allowing rax before depot? This would introduce quicker factory timings without stripping upgrades.
|
Time Warp should affect air units too now...
each energy point in the MsC is far more precious than the oracle's energy...
75 energy from the MsC is like 200 energy from the oracle.
|
Such early timings on the mine is going to be hurtful. Detection pressure is too strenuous. Obs too fragile to be consistent detector. Terran get infiniscan, zerg get 0 supply spam Overseers, what do protoss get? -5 hp little paper air plane bullshitters.
|
On January 10 2013 22:35 TeslasPigeon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 22:25 Everlong wrote:On January 10 2013 22:06 Jerom wrote:
Blizzard doesn't seem to understand why mech in TvP doesn't work. They don't have a single clue about what should happen to make it work it seems. Wrong. They are making mech openings more viable by lowering tech requirements for mech units to hold allins and by enabling offensive builds. This is good for 2 reasons: 1) You can play greedy now going for quick 3cc, because with Siege Tanks and Widow Mines, you are able to lock down areas pretty quickly now. MsC no longer detecting makes WM very potent early game against Protoss and free siege tech is not only making you safe early on, but it allowes for quick armory or second factory, which means additional units, faster Thor or upgrades. All of this snowballs into better economy, infrastructure and transitions overall. So yeah, you don't get +25 dmg for Tank, but mech play generally is better. You can use the saved gas for Ghosts as well. You have free siege tech and you don't need blue flame so badly. That is a lot of gas. 2) You can actually go offensive now playing mech. This is one of the most significant changes this patch allowes you to do. Of course, mass Tempest/Templar/Carrier is difficult to deal with 30 tanks, but guess what, now you can just go kill him the second you see 2-3 Stargates or Fleet Beacon. So please, don't just write something without thinking. It's already like 30+ pages of pure whining because Blizzard did not buff Tank in a way people want. I don't disagree with what you are saying, but it seems so sad that they would remove upgrades in order to do this. Upgrades are what make the game fun and add another layer of complexity. If you want to allow mech to be more offensive, surely there are better ways than stripping upgrades? What about allowing rax before depot? This would introduce quicker factory timings without stripping upgrades.
I agree, but at this point I work with what I get. I'm not going to pretend Blizzard is about to buff Tank + 25dmg, because this is not going to happen. They are offering us this different route and I accept it. You might either cry about how badly they are balancing TvP mech, or you can go explore stuff that is possible now and oh boy, is it a new game with all those changes.
|
On January 10 2013 22:40 Cloak wrote:
Such early timings on the mine is going to be hurtful. Detection pressure is too strenuous. Obs too fragile to be consistent detector. Terran get infiniscan, zerg get 0 supply spam Overseers, what do protoss get? -5 hp little paper air plane bullshitters.
Paper air plane bullshitter costing 75 gaz a delaying colosus or immo, forcing robo. I want a fucking detector like other race... add a observer on nexus with no cloak and we good.
|
This patch doesn't fucking fix anything about TvP. Are they dumb or what?
|
Time will tell, I'll be tuning into a lot more HotS this weekend to see how these pan out. If anything else it should be interesting to see what kind of shenanigans come out at the highest level, but doubtless most of the patch will be heavily revised before release.
What I do like about it, is it will add some incentive and variety to one base play or aggression into expansion and encourage some earlier exchanges at least as far as potential for aggression from Terran.
|
On January 10 2013 22:45 BerthaG wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 22:40 Cloak wrote:
Such early timings on the mine is going to be hurtful. Detection pressure is too strenuous. Obs too fragile to be consistent detector. Terran get infiniscan, zerg get 0 supply spam Overseers, what do protoss get? -5 hp little paper air plane bullshitters. Paper air plane bullshitter costing 75 gaz a delaying colosus or immo, forcing robo. I want a fucking detector like other race... add a observer on nexus with no cloak and we good.
Ok, you are going to get 200gas flying paper air plane bullshitter @Stargate tech, deal??
|
On January 10 2013 22:47 Wildmoon wrote:
This patch doesn't fucking fix anything about TvP. Are they dumb or what?
The fuck? Tanks don't do 400 dmg now? How am I supposed to mech TvP? Cancelled preorder..
|
On January 10 2013 22:49 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 22:45 BerthaG wrote:On January 10 2013 22:40 Cloak wrote:
Such early timings on the mine is going to be hurtful. Detection pressure is too strenuous. Obs too fragile to be consistent detector. Terran get infiniscan, zerg get 0 supply spam Overseers, what do protoss get? -5 hp little paper air plane bullshitters. Paper air plane bullshitter costing 75 gaz a delaying colosus or immo, forcing robo. I want a fucking detector like other race... add a observer on nexus with no cloak and we good. Ok, you are going to get 200gas flying paper air plane bullshitter @Stargate tech, deal??
And don't forget to add a robo requirement to the stargate! :D
|
Ummmm
Yay no more vortex?
Right guys?
|
On January 10 2013 22:50 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 22:47 Wildmoon wrote:
This patch doesn't fucking fix anything about TvP. Are they dumb or what? The fuck? Tanks don't do 400 dmg now? How am I supposed to mech TvP? Cancelled preorder..
What are you talking about?
|
On January 10 2013 22:49 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 22:45 BerthaG wrote:On January 10 2013 22:40 Cloak wrote:
Such early timings on the mine is going to be hurtful. Detection pressure is too strenuous. Obs too fragile to be consistent detector. Terran get infiniscan, zerg get 0 supply spam Overseers, what do protoss get? -5 hp little paper air plane bullshitters. Paper air plane bullshitter costing 75 gaz a delaying colosus or immo, forcing robo. I want a fucking detector like other race... add a observer on nexus with no cloak and we good. Ok, you are going to get 200gas flying paper air plane bullshitter @Stargate tech, deal??
No deal, I want a no gaz detection and no teck path. Look scan look overcire.... want the same as other race that it. Don t want oracle detection they can stuck it when the sun does not shine.
|
Unless there is no longer a limit of 1 on the mothership core with certain abilities needing research or adjusting energy costs, I do not think time warp will ever really see much use. With the way recall works the mothership has to stay with the army and it is already a primary target because of that, so it can not use time warp to slow an opponents kiting/retreat and it has recall so there is no need for it to allow protoss to retreat.
On the other hand detection on the oracle is very powerful. Terran can no longer rely on widow mines to defend against protoss air harass which makes going mech all the more difficult, could straight up lose to the first few oracles if going mech.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
