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Some terrible changes.
The issue with the tank was not that siege mode took a long time to research. It's that the unit does pitiful damage, and costs too much supply. Blizzard completely missed the point, and is likely out of tune with the community.
Why does siege mode not need to be researched? It doesn't even make sense from a consistency standpoint, and Z and P will continue to a-move tank lines with minimal losses.
On January 10 2013 15:23 Arceus wrote:
next thing we know, Blizzard revolutionizes RTS genre by completely removing the research aspects of the game. Everyone can just make units and roll
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On January 10 2013 15:02 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 14:00 Kal_rA wrote:On January 10 2013 13:52 Rabiator wrote:
Are they really this stupid? Removing the upgrade for Siege Tank does NOT buff its performance and that is what is bad about it. I think its just the research. So auto siege mode... This is so weird. Fixing wrong things imo. Many better ways to approach the game to make it a lot better. "Remove the upgrade" (or merge the upgrades) seems to be their standard answer to "buffing" everything, but researching upgrades is one of the key things about the game.
You realize that by being buffed in this way, mech gets a faster foot up in the early game, and that this improvement can be used to affect all things later in the game, thus buffing mech? I know what you mean by tanks not being stronger or being better by this, but you get to more bases + bigger army + 3/3 upgrades etc faster. Also Terran doesn't have to worry about lategame -- you can get a 170-180 supply army with lots of MULEs. So getting a foot up early game will help mech/tanks be stronger too. If you watch Liquid Sea he's able to split his tanks into 2 large groups many times because he has sooo many tanks and is able to deal with the main protoss force as long as he got a good positioning (choke and/or wall).
On January 10 2013 15:11 Sufinsil wrote:
Take a deep breath.
Now go test it on beta.
See actually how it affects the game.
Leave good feedback.
Speculation and raging on TL does nothing.
Agreed... so many posts seem to not have even finished reading the patch notes or spent more than a minute thinking about them. Especially those saying hellbats got nerfed... if you try it out they are ridiculously good now and their scary close combat power adds some positioning to the unit, trying to corner the enemy army so they can't stay away forever. Well I guess that is still subjective, but then there are still the people who are surprised blue-flame doesn't apply to hellbats anymore, even though hellbats are stronger now than before WITH blue flame.
Also I just realized, it may feel weird to have siege mode not be upgraded anymore, but it makes the game more consistent with the transforming concept. The only thing weird now is the hellbat needing armory to transform though... all other units can transform without requirements.
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i fail to see how zealots will not still completely destroy mech...
hellbat need a single shot, hard hitting attack that deals bonus vs light if blizzard doesn't want to destroy TvZ with hellbats.
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most random patch ever....
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next thing we know, Blizzard revolutionizes RTS genre by completely removing the research aspects of the game. Everyone can just make units and roll
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On January 10 2013 15:13 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Some terrible changes.
The issue with the tank was not that siege mode took a long time to research. It's that the unit does pitiful damage, and costs too much supply. Blizzard completely missed the point, and is likely out of tune with the community.
wrong. the issue with tanks is what i described on page 31. nothing more, nothing less. tanks deal lots of damage. immortals were their only counter and immortals/protoss ground armies are dealt with handily by combining tanks with hellbats
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On January 10 2013 15:23 Arceus wrote:
next thing we know, Blizzard revolutionizes RTS genre by completely removing the research aspects of the game. Everyone can just make units and roll
LOL I feel like it's already a lot like that.
Leastwise, that's where they seem to be heading. I don't like their approach. I would like to see some good old, honest buffs to units based on merit, instead of trying to buff the core my touching up on fringe issues.
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Will see how this patch change the meta-game.
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i think they should redo this patch lol...
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On January 10 2013 13:14 avilo wrote:
So, I played a few games, HSM energy change is of course good because now you build the unit and it is able to do something! Aka, you build ravens, they have a missile, so if Zerg remaxes on 20 corruptors or what not you actually have a fighting chance.
As for mech TvP...played 1 game of it, and that's enough for me. Nothing changed. Tempest + templar still beats everything, add in carriers and it's even worse for Terran/mech.
As explained in the game: You played horrible and therefore you lost. The only factor that has not changed is how you just assume the match up should be played. After the game you proceeded to make excuses on your stream, lie about how good you are with bio, and even called me out saying you beat me all the time in WoL and that I suck. I don't really understand why, but it's quite saddening to see a player be well regarded by many viewers in the community while acting simply pathetic. To clarify, I've played you many times in HotS and WoL and I'm quite sure I have not lost to you since probably 2011, of course I could very well be wrong about this, I am sure I have a very large winning record against you. I know I've played you a number of times on my other HotS acc and even when you played bio you proceeded to lose. This I can supply a replay of if need be, even though I do constantly wipe them. However, if it makes you feel better in front of your viewers you can continue to lie. edit: I do want to add though: If you ever want to have a civil discussion about balance then I'd be more than glad to do so, not here of course, but I'd be more than happy to talk about it. The problem is just the way you conduct your behavior and cannot maintain a reasonable debate on the subject, let alone stay calm when a simple explanation is being given.
I find it much without basis though.. even though when I do type something about your character I attempt to be nice about your skill set and the way you try to play the game; however, I will continue to maintain the argument I bring up constantly which is: you have no idea what you're talking about in terms of balance and need to stop deluding this forum with mindless posts that are only bound to emotion instead of rationale.
Moving past this though, this patch is significantly better for PvP due to the fact that now DTs are not completely useless mid game. I think there are still many issues though. I'm not sure how I feel about the mothership core yet.. I do wish it was exclusively a defensive unit to avoid needless early game abuse versus certain terran builds; and likewise, to allow room for an additional ground protoss unit based around micro or something of the sort. I feel like they're getting all jumbled up with what to do with the mothership core..
Currently, my PvZ build has been doing well, though there are a few who are finally starting to figure out how to beat it straight up. I will say, I'm not quite sure how to beat swarm hosts on certain maps... and it really bugs me that we're supposed to be balance testing this game with the map pool we have where one race is significantly stronger than another on whatever map it may be for instance if there is only one attack path to an expo and you cannot run around swarm host positioning even to counter...
I'll hopefully be able to put some more time into the patch over the next few days/weekend and see how well things work out.
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Blizzard doesn't even try anymore. Such a joke. Who wants to bet on which race wins most tourneys the 1st six months of HOTS?
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On January 10 2013 15:40 -Kyo- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 13:14 avilo wrote:
So, I played a few games, HSM energy change is of course good because now you build the unit and it is able to do something! Aka, you build ravens, they have a missile, so if Zerg remaxes on 20 corruptors or what not you actually have a fighting chance.
As for mech TvP...played 1 game of it, and that's enough for me. Nothing changed. Tempest + templar still beats everything, add in carriers and it's even worse for Terran/mech. As explained in the game: You played horrible and therefore you lost. The only factor that has not changed is how you just assume the match up should be played. After the game you proceeded to make excuses on your stream, lie about how good you are with bio, and even called me out saying you beat me all the time in WoL and that I suck. I don't really understand why, but it's quite saddening to see a player be well regarded by many viewers in the community while acting simply pathetic. To clarify, I've played you many times in HotS and WoL and I'm quite sure I have not lost to you since probably 2011, of course I could very well be wrong about this, I am sure I have a very large winning record against you. I'm know I've played you a number of times on my other HotS acc and even when you played bio you proceeded to lose. This I can supply a replay of even though I do constantly wipe them. However, if it makes you feel better in front of your viewers you can continue to lie. I find it much without basis though.. even though when I do type something about your character I attempt to be nice about your skill set and the way you try to play the game; however,I will continue to maintain the argument I bring up constantly which is: you have no idea what you're talking about in terms of balance and need to stop deluding this forum with mindless posts that are only bound to emotion instead of rationale. Moving past this though, this patch is significantly better for PvP due to the fact that now DTs are not completely useless mid game. I think there are still many issues though. I'm not sure how I feel about the mothership core yet.. I do wish it was exclusively a defensive unit to avoid needless early game abuse versus certain terran builds; and likewise, to allow room for an additional ground protoss unit based around micro or something of the sort. I feel like they're getting all jumbled up with what to do with the mothership core.. Currently, my PvZ build has been doing well, though there are a few who are finally starting to figure out how to beat it straight up. I will say, I'm not quite sure how to beat swarm hosts on certain maps... and it really bugs me that we're supposed to be balance testing this game with the map pool we have where one race is significantly stronger than another on whatever map it may be for instance if there is only one attack path to an expo and you cannot run around swarm host positioning even to counter... I'll hopefully be able to put some more time into the patch over the next few days/weekend and see how well things work out.
him and you are both wrong
what hes wrong about is he said nothing has changed about mech. thats wrong. now the counter to mech is skytoss (because immortals no longer counter mech). fix skytoss and you will fix mech
you are wrong if you think avilo isnt completely 100% correct that skytoss is pretty BS right now in the beta. as a master protoss I feel skytoss needs heavy changes.
"air" should not be viable in a RTS. it was the biggest problem with zerg for 2 years in WoL (and still is the problem with zerg). RTS should be ~80% ground focused ~20% air focused to be exciting. blizzard is making a mistake if they want "air" to be viable for protoss in hots.
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Hate the Hellbat change. Awful.
The Siege research removal seems random, at best. It just shifts one specific timing attack to earlier.
Cannot really comment on the Reaper changes, a little hard to predict their new utilization. However, as some people have mentioned, early mass Reapers might be common. Will make early TvTs kind of boring, honestly.
The rest, surprisingly, I'm completely fine with.
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Still mad about the caduceus reactor...
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They probably were drinking a lot before this patch
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About 10 games in to the patch, mainly TvZ's
TvZ feels more like the old days now. With all the early game options T is mega strong. I open widow mine/marine/medivac. I can switch to tank asap whenever I want in case of all-in. So i power early and mid game with those cheap units then add tanks in when I need. Now without cadaceus reactor late game is really bad again. Ultras are mega strong.
TvP rofl, thx for the non-buff to mech. Did damage early with a push, then got rolled late game.
TvT nice to not have the reaper mess,Seeker missle is really cool now in this match up in late game.
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On January 10 2013 15:13 DemigodcelpH wrote:Some terrible changes. The issue with the tank was not that siege mode took a long time to research. It's that the unit does pitiful damage, and costs too much supply. Blizzard completely missed the point, and is likely out of tune with the community. Why does siege mode not need to be researched? It doesn't even make sense from a consistency standpoint, and Z and P will continue to a-move tank lines with minimal losses. Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 15:23 Arceus wrote:
next thing we know, Blizzard revolutionizes RTS genre by completely removing the research aspects of the game. Everyone can just make units and roll
Well put out. This is truly a testament to blizzard's skills in balancing a game. Have they not received feedbacks? Reapers are now a decent unit with good micro. Why bother buffing it so T v Z becomes a pain for the zerg and makes it the only powerful opening for terran? Additionally, tanks are in much needed help in terms of damage and durability, but removing siege tech bears no relevance what so ever to helping it in actual confrontation. Helbats were actually useful with blue flame against zealots and mass lings with their arcing weapon. Now they're just trash with a 45 degree attack?
I really am concerned about where they are receiving their data from and whether they are actually considering player feedback at all. Problems lie in the tank statistic and certain underdeveloped units like the viking. While the raven change is welcome (no overlap with yamato now) i'm not sure everything else is necessary. Also there are no indications of Protoss Air being a major issue for mech in general. A fleet of vikings and thor's new HIP is not sufficient to combat a full balanced sky toss, while transitioning to ravens from mech is still extremely gas intensive.
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On January 10 2013 15:45 bankobauss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 15:40 -Kyo- wrote:On January 10 2013 13:14 avilo wrote:
So, I played a few games, HSM energy change is of course good because now you build the unit and it is able to do something! Aka, you build ravens, they have a missile, so if Zerg remaxes on 20 corruptors or what not you actually have a fighting chance.
As for mech TvP...played 1 game of it, and that's enough for me. Nothing changed. Tempest + templar still beats everything, add in carriers and it's even worse for Terran/mech. As explained in the game: You played horrible and therefore you lost. The only factor that has not changed is how you just assume the match up should be played. After the game you proceeded to make excuses on your stream, lie about how good you are with bio, and even called me out saying you beat me all the time in WoL and that I suck. I don't really understand why, but it's quite saddening to see a player be well regarded by many viewers in the community while acting simply pathetic. To clarify, I've played you many times in HotS and WoL and I'm quite sure I have not lost to you since probably 2011, of course I could very well be wrong about this, I am sure I have a very large winning record against you. I'm know I've played you a number of times on my other HotS acc and even when you played bio you proceeded to lose. This I can supply a replay of even though I do constantly wipe them. However, if it makes you feel better in front of your viewers you can continue to lie. I find it much without basis though.. even though when I do type something about your character I attempt to be nice about your skill set and the way you try to play the game; however,I will continue to maintain the argument I bring up constantly which is: you have no idea what you're talking about in terms of balance and need to stop deluding this forum with mindless posts that are only bound to emotion instead of rationale. Moving past this though, this patch is significantly better for PvP due to the fact that now DTs are not completely useless mid game. I think there are still many issues though. I'm not sure how I feel about the mothership core yet.. I do wish it was exclusively a defensive unit to avoid needless early game abuse versus certain terran builds; and likewise, to allow room for an additional ground protoss unit based around micro or something of the sort. I feel like they're getting all jumbled up with what to do with the mothership core.. Currently, my PvZ build has been doing well, though there are a few who are finally starting to figure out how to beat it straight up. I will say, I'm not quite sure how to beat swarm hosts on certain maps... and it really bugs me that we're supposed to be balance testing this game with the map pool we have where one race is significantly stronger than another on whatever map it may be for instance if there is only one attack path to an expo and you cannot run around swarm host positioning even to counter... I'll hopefully be able to put some more time into the patch over the next few days/weekend and see how well things work out. him and you are both wrong what hes wrong about is he said nothing has changed about mech. thats wrong. now the counter to mech is skytoss (because immortals no longer counter mech). fix skytoss and you will fix mech you are wrong if you think avilo isnt completely 100% correct that skytoss is pretty BS right now in the beta. as a master protoss I feel skytoss needs heavy changes. "air" should not be viable in a RTS. it was the biggest problem with zerg for 2 years in WoL (and still is the problem with zerg). RTS should be ~80% ground focused ~20% air focused to be exciting. blizzard is making a mistake if they want "air" to be viable for protoss in hots.
I think the hellbat's ridiculous strength will force protoss to not be able to pressure/harass safetly with air while getting a giant deathball. They will be actually scared when terran pushes out and such, or just kills bases and ignores harass or being under fire by air units (like mech vs BCs in tvt).
But you're right, pure air probably shouldn't be viable, or at least not on every map (there were some weird air maps in BW for example).
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Such a random patch. This makes no sense whatsoever. Reapers....?
I guess the Raven changes are good. And the largely cosmetic Zerg and Protoss changes are good also. Vortex is now actually gone instead of just being gone in all practical sense. Time Warp is a worthy alternative to Vortex- makes sense. Would be more interesting to have more numerous casters able to use abilities like that than just one though...... harkening back to the old song of giant-units-are-retarded once again.
Blizzard.... removed the siege mode research? Making siege tanks strong earlier, without buffing them? So what? They're still weak units. At best, 1-1-1 just got faster, and Blizzard claims to not like that type of play.
Hellbats.... what? They are not completely different units from Hellions, completely divorced from the logic of the Hellion. Honestly, why bother making it a transformation? Hell, make it an Armored unit on its own, and call it a Firebat at this point. It's even Biological.....
I just don't get it Blizzard. I really want this game to be good. I want you to get it. I want you to make HOTS the game WOL wasn't. But I see every patch, you completely miss the train.
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EPT
