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On January 10 2013 15:45 bankobauss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 15:40 -Kyo- wrote:On January 10 2013 13:14 avilo wrote:
So, I played a few games, HSM energy change is of course good because now you build the unit and it is able to do something! Aka, you build ravens, they have a missile, so if Zerg remaxes on 20 corruptors or what not you actually have a fighting chance.
As for mech TvP...played 1 game of it, and that's enough for me. Nothing changed. Tempest + templar still beats everything, add in carriers and it's even worse for Terran/mech. As explained in the game: You played horrible and therefore you lost. The only factor that has not changed is how you just assume the match up should be played. After the game you proceeded to make excuses on your stream, lie about how good you are with bio, and even called me out saying you beat me all the time in WoL and that I suck. I don't really understand why, but it's quite saddening to see a player be well regarded by many viewers in the community while acting simply pathetic. To clarify, I've played you many times in HotS and WoL and I'm quite sure I have not lost to you since probably 2011, of course I could very well be wrong about this, I am sure I have a very large winning record against you. I'm know I've played you a number of times on my other HotS acc and even when you played bio you proceeded to lose. This I can supply a replay of even though I do constantly wipe them. However, if it makes you feel better in front of your viewers you can continue to lie. I find it much without basis though.. even though when I do type something about your character I attempt to be nice about your skill set and the way you try to play the game; however,I will continue to maintain the argument I bring up constantly which is: you have no idea what you're talking about in terms of balance and need to stop deluding this forum with mindless posts that are only bound to emotion instead of rationale. Moving past this though, this patch is significantly better for PvP due to the fact that now DTs are not completely useless mid game. I think there are still many issues though. I'm not sure how I feel about the mothership core yet.. I do wish it was exclusively a defensive unit to avoid needless early game abuse versus certain terran builds; and likewise, to allow room for an additional ground protoss unit based around micro or something of the sort. I feel like they're getting all jumbled up with what to do with the mothership core.. Currently, my PvZ build has been doing well, though there are a few who are finally starting to figure out how to beat it straight up. I will say, I'm not quite sure how to beat swarm hosts on certain maps... and it really bugs me that we're supposed to be balance testing this game with the map pool we have where one race is significantly stronger than another on whatever map it may be for instance if there is only one attack path to an expo and you cannot run around swarm host positioning even to counter... I'll hopefully be able to put some more time into the patch over the next few days/weekend and see how well things work out. him and you are both wrong what hes wrong about is he said nothing has changed about mech. thats wrong. now the counter to mech is skytoss (because immortals no longer counter mech). fix skytoss and you will fix mech you are wrong if you think avilo isnt completely 100% correct that skytoss is pretty BS right now in the beta. as a master protoss I feel skytoss needs heavy changes. "air" should not be viable in a RTS. it was the biggest problem with zerg for 2 years in WoL (and still is the problem with zerg). RTS should be ~80% ground focused ~20% air focused to be exciting. blizzard is making a mistake if they want "air" to be viable for protoss in hots.
I think you've completely misunderstood what I've said.
I never said the game is or isn't broken. I said when you play horrible, make excuses, and cannot maintain an objective standpoint on the game then you should not even be allowed into the discussion. If you can get past emotional barriers then we can begin to discuss balance and how the matchup is played/problems in it etc.
I mean, the game he's trying to claim that proves the imbalance of protoss in PvT is below...
The VoD the game is here on his stream:
http://www.twitch.tv/avilo/b/355563217 -- 2 hours 23 minutes
my POV:
http://www.twitch.tv/kyo7763/b/355579811 -- 1 hour 8 minutes (sorry my frames start to drop due to school net  / I assume someone who watches my stream won't get my very thick sense of humor. I'm joking throughout my commentary.)
I can always supply a replay if you'd like to look at everything from an on top view.
But just a few things to note... his avg apm over the game: 276 versus mine: 350..
ending number of minerals/gas his: 2.5k/5k versus mine: 20k/12k........................
numbers of bases still with resources on their side of the map his: 3 FULL bases versus mine: 2 bases with 300 patches...
I mean the list goes on and on, but if he is seriously trying to say that this game is why PvT is imbalanced idk... I mean.. I even went colossus drop as opener -_-;;
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wat terran needs in tvp is cost/supply efficient army... not just hellbats..
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On January 10 2013 15:45 bankobauss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 15:40 -Kyo- wrote:On January 10 2013 13:14 avilo wrote:
So, I played a few games, HSM energy change is of course good because now you build the unit and it is able to do something! Aka, you build ravens, they have a missile, so if Zerg remaxes on 20 corruptors or what not you actually have a fighting chance.
As for mech TvP...played 1 game of it, and that's enough for me. Nothing changed. Tempest + templar still beats everything, add in carriers and it's even worse for Terran/mech. As explained in the game: You played horrible and therefore you lost. The only factor that has not changed is how you just assume the match up should be played. After the game you proceeded to make excuses on your stream, lie about how good you are with bio, and even called me out saying you beat me all the time in WoL and that I suck. I don't really understand why, but it's quite saddening to see a player be well regarded by many viewers in the community while acting simply pathetic. To clarify, I've played you many times in HotS and WoL and I'm quite sure I have not lost to you since probably 2011, of course I could very well be wrong about this, I am sure I have a very large winning record against you. I'm know I've played you a number of times on my other HotS acc and even when you played bio you proceeded to lose. This I can supply a replay of even though I do constantly wipe them. However, if it makes you feel better in front of your viewers you can continue to lie. I find it much without basis though.. even though when I do type something about your character I attempt to be nice about your skill set and the way you try to play the game; however,I will continue to maintain the argument I bring up constantly which is: you have no idea what you're talking about in terms of balance and need to stop deluding this forum with mindless posts that are only bound to emotion instead of rationale. Moving past this though, this patch is significantly better for PvP due to the fact that now DTs are not completely useless mid game. I think there are still many issues though. I'm not sure how I feel about the mothership core yet.. I do wish it was exclusively a defensive unit to avoid needless early game abuse versus certain terran builds; and likewise, to allow room for an additional ground protoss unit based around micro or something of the sort. I feel like they're getting all jumbled up with what to do with the mothership core.. Currently, my PvZ build has been doing well, though there are a few who are finally starting to figure out how to beat it straight up. I will say, I'm not quite sure how to beat swarm hosts on certain maps... and it really bugs me that we're supposed to be balance testing this game with the map pool we have where one race is significantly stronger than another on whatever map it may be for instance if there is only one attack path to an expo and you cannot run around swarm host positioning even to counter... I'll hopefully be able to put some more time into the patch over the next few days/weekend and see how well things work out. him and you are both wrong what hes wrong about is he said nothing has changed about mech. thats wrong. now the counter to mech is skytoss (because immortals no longer counter mech). fix skytoss and you will fix mech you are wrong if you think avilo isnt completely 100% correct that skytoss is pretty BS right now in the beta. as a master protoss I feel skytoss needs heavy changes. "air" should not be viable in a RTS. it was the biggest problem with zerg for 2 years in WoL (and still is the problem with zerg). RTS should be ~80% ground focused ~20% air focused to be exciting. blizzard is making a mistake if they want "air" to be viable for protoss in hots.
No no no, immortals didnt just disappear. They are still extremely good, and counter mech hard. The reason you see Sky Toss is because its better not because immortals are suddenly countered by mech.
I agree tho that I absolutely do not want to here or see SKYTOSS anymore. If this game becomes about making a big fleet its going to be terrible. Air units are important but should not be the main army.
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On January 10 2013 15:58 ledarsi wrote:
Such a random patch. This makes no sense whatsoever. Reapers....?
I guess the Raven changes are good. And the largely cosmetic Zerg and Protoss changes are good also. Vortex is now actually gone instead of just being gone in all practical sense. Time Warp is a worthy alternative to Vortex- makes sense. Would be more interesting to have more numerous casters able to use abilities like that than just one though...... harkening back to the old song of giant-units-are-retarded once again.
Blizzard.... removed the siege mode research? Making siege tanks strong earlier, without buffing them? So what? They're still weak units. At best, 1-1-1 just got faster, and Blizzard claims to not like that type of play.
Hellbats.... what? They are not completely different units from Hellions, completely divorced from the logic of the Hellion. Honestly, why bother making it a transformation? Hell, make it an Armored unit on its own, and call it a Firebat at this point. It's even Biological.....
I just don't get it Blizzard. I really want this game to be good. I want you to get it. I want you to make HOTS the game WOL wasn't. But I see every patch, you completely miss the train.
THe last few patches were spot on, but they still don't get why we don't want strong early tanks. We want a mid game tanks without achieving critical mass (20+) to be a forced to be reckoned with. We just don't want to be attack moved because tanks are doing pitiful damage. It is that simple for mech to be effective.
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On January 10 2013 16:06 Novacute wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 15:58 ledarsi wrote:
Such a random patch. This makes no sense whatsoever. Reapers....?
I guess the Raven changes are good. And the largely cosmetic Zerg and Protoss changes are good also. Vortex is now actually gone instead of just being gone in all practical sense. Time Warp is a worthy alternative to Vortex- makes sense. Would be more interesting to have more numerous casters able to use abilities like that than just one though...... harkening back to the old song of giant-units-are-retarded once again.
Blizzard.... removed the siege mode research? Making siege tanks strong earlier, without buffing them? So what? They're still weak units. At best, 1-1-1 just got faster, and Blizzard claims to not like that type of play.
Hellbats.... what? They are not completely different units from Hellions, completely divorced from the logic of the Hellion. Honestly, why bother making it a transformation? Hell, make it an Armored unit on its own, and call it a Firebat at this point. It's even Biological.....
I just don't get it Blizzard. I really want this game to be good. I want you to get it. I want you to make HOTS the game WOL wasn't. But I see every patch, you completely miss the train. THe last few patches were spot on, but they still don't get why we don't want strong early tanks. We want a mid game tanks without achieving critical mass (20+) to be a forced to be reckoned with. We just don't want to be attack moved because tanks are doing pitiful damage. It is that simple for mech to be effective.
But saving 100/100 resources as well as being safer early game means you can propel yourself into a stronger midgame with more tanks.
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Idk whether these changes will help tvp, I can't really say until I see the pros duke it out on the beta. What I CAN say, as an avid SC2 follower... these changes leave me thoroughly scratching my head. They usually have a pretty clear direction with balance changes (which I will agree or disagree with), but this feels ... messy. Not bad, persay, but unfocused and undirected.
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Seige mode change only to affect TvP? Blizzard doesn't understand TvP. I want to fire the person who wrote 'will only affect TvP'.
The sooner they realise that the problem in TvP is the immortal the better. Otherwise, they'll never be able to encourage Terran to build a mechanised army.
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On January 10 2013 15:58 -Kyo- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 15:45 bankobauss wrote:On January 10 2013 15:40 -Kyo- wrote:On January 10 2013 13:14 avilo wrote:
So, I played a few games, HSM energy change is of course good because now you build the unit and it is able to do something! Aka, you build ravens, they have a missile, so if Zerg remaxes on 20 corruptors or what not you actually have a fighting chance.
As for mech TvP...played 1 game of it, and that's enough for me. Nothing changed. Tempest + templar still beats everything, add in carriers and it's even worse for Terran/mech. As explained in the game: You played horrible and therefore you lost. The only factor that has not changed is how you just assume the match up should be played. After the game you proceeded to make excuses on your stream, lie about how good you are with bio, and even called me out saying you beat me all the time in WoL and that I suck. I don't really understand why, but it's quite saddening to see a player be well regarded by many viewers in the community while acting simply pathetic. To clarify, I've played you many times in HotS and WoL and I'm quite sure I have not lost to you since probably 2011, of course I could very well be wrong about this, I am sure I have a very large winning record against you. I'm know I've played you a number of times on my other HotS acc and even when you played bio you proceeded to lose. This I can supply a replay of even though I do constantly wipe them. However, if it makes you feel better in front of your viewers you can continue to lie. I find it much without basis though.. even though when I do type something about your character I attempt to be nice about your skill set and the way you try to play the game; however,I will continue to maintain the argument I bring up constantly which is: you have no idea what you're talking about in terms of balance and need to stop deluding this forum with mindless posts that are only bound to emotion instead of rationale. Moving past this though, this patch is significantly better for PvP due to the fact that now DTs are not completely useless mid game. I think there are still many issues though. I'm not sure how I feel about the mothership core yet.. I do wish it was exclusively a defensive unit to avoid needless early game abuse versus certain terran builds; and likewise, to allow room for an additional ground protoss unit based around micro or something of the sort. I feel like they're getting all jumbled up with what to do with the mothership core.. Currently, my PvZ build has been doing well, though there are a few who are finally starting to figure out how to beat it straight up. I will say, I'm not quite sure how to beat swarm hosts on certain maps... and it really bugs me that we're supposed to be balance testing this game with the map pool we have where one race is significantly stronger than another on whatever map it may be for instance if there is only one attack path to an expo and you cannot run around swarm host positioning even to counter... I'll hopefully be able to put some more time into the patch over the next few days/weekend and see how well things work out. him and you are both wrong what hes wrong about is he said nothing has changed about mech. thats wrong. now the counter to mech is skytoss (because immortals no longer counter mech). fix skytoss and you will fix mech you are wrong if you think avilo isnt completely 100% correct that skytoss is pretty BS right now in the beta. as a master protoss I feel skytoss needs heavy changes. "air" should not be viable in a RTS. it was the biggest problem with zerg for 2 years in WoL (and still is the problem with zerg). RTS should be ~80% ground focused ~20% air focused to be exciting. blizzard is making a mistake if they want "air" to be viable for protoss in hots. I think you've completely misunderstood what I've said. I never said the game is or isn't broken. I said when you play horrible, make excuses, and cannot maintain an objective standpoint on the game then you should not even be allowed into the discussion. If you can get past emotional barriers then we can begin to discuss balance and how the matchup is played/problems in it etc. I mean, the game he's trying to claim that proves the imbalance of protoss in PvT is below... The VoD the game is here on his stream: http://www.twitch.tv/avilo/b/355563217 -- 2 hours 23 minutes my POV: http://www.twitch.tv/kyo7763/b/355579811 -- 1 hour 8 minutes (sorry my frames start to drop due to school net / I assume someone who watches my stream won't get my very thick sense of humor. I'm joking throughout my commentary.) I can always supply a replay if you'd like to look at everything from an on top view. But just a few things to note... his avg apm over the game: 276 versus mine: 350.. ending number of minerals/gas his: 2.5k/5k versus mine: 20k/12k........................ numbers of bases still with resources on their side of the map his: 3 FULL bases versus mine: 2 bases with 300 patches... I mean the list goes on and on, but if he is seriously trying to say that this game is why PvT is imbalanced idk... I mean.. I even went colossus drop as opener -_-;;
Virtually every mech game is like that. From the start of the game you basically could do whatever you wanted. You opened with a collosus drop that if i had opened bio is easy as hell to handle.
Instead a single collosus and warp prism can man handle mech. Protoss can literally choose anything, throwing a dart at a unit on the dartboard to play vs "mech" and get away with it. I've beaten you with bio plenty of times, but then when i go mech suddenly you seem pro level! I also often play mech into lategame from both sides of the match-up, PvT and TvP and it's incredibly broken in P's favor. The moment you know it's Pvmech Tempest + templar solves everything.
Also, if you get even 1 warp prism through vs mech, it's basically gg.
The thing you have to realize is, templar tempest has no counter from Terran and Zerg in lategame. No race should have an unbeatable unit composition once they "reach it" because when the game develops to this point in lategame, all the good players are going to be able to reach it quite easily.
Zerg has no option against tempest + templar, Terran is slightly better off, but not by much.
Nothing changed with mech this last patch, in fact the battle hellion is worse than it was (it was nerfed, less splash, lower attack speed). They say they want to make mech better but simultaenously give it nerfs each patch they claim this.
p.s. By the way, you could have got a free win vs the mech opener i tried by dropping the collosus out and shifting the prism to phase mode and just microing the collosus in and out of the warp prism while warping in stalkers...mech is still shit.
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I don't even know why I play the Beta when they make changes as drastic as this. I'm not trying to hate, I just see no rhyme or reason to what they're doing.
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On January 10 2013 16:26 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 15:58 -Kyo- wrote:On January 10 2013 15:45 bankobauss wrote:On January 10 2013 15:40 -Kyo- wrote:On January 10 2013 13:14 avilo wrote:
So, I played a few games, HSM energy change is of course good because now you build the unit and it is able to do something! Aka, you build ravens, they have a missile, so if Zerg remaxes on 20 corruptors or what not you actually have a fighting chance.
As for mech TvP...played 1 game of it, and that's enough for me. Nothing changed. Tempest + templar still beats everything, add in carriers and it's even worse for Terran/mech. As explained in the game: You played horrible and therefore you lost. The only factor that has not changed is how you just assume the match up should be played. After the game you proceeded to make excuses on your stream, lie about how good you are with bio, and even called me out saying you beat me all the time in WoL and that I suck. I don't really understand why, but it's quite saddening to see a player be well regarded by many viewers in the community while acting simply pathetic. To clarify, I've played you many times in HotS and WoL and I'm quite sure I have not lost to you since probably 2011, of course I could very well be wrong about this, I am sure I have a very large winning record against you. I'm know I've played you a number of times on my other HotS acc and even when you played bio you proceeded to lose. This I can supply a replay of even though I do constantly wipe them. However, if it makes you feel better in front of your viewers you can continue to lie. I find it much without basis though.. even though when I do type something about your character I attempt to be nice about your skill set and the way you try to play the game; however,I will continue to maintain the argument I bring up constantly which is: you have no idea what you're talking about in terms of balance and need to stop deluding this forum with mindless posts that are only bound to emotion instead of rationale. Moving past this though, this patch is significantly better for PvP due to the fact that now DTs are not completely useless mid game. I think there are still many issues though. I'm not sure how I feel about the mothership core yet.. I do wish it was exclusively a defensive unit to avoid needless early game abuse versus certain terran builds; and likewise, to allow room for an additional ground protoss unit based around micro or something of the sort. I feel like they're getting all jumbled up with what to do with the mothership core.. Currently, my PvZ build has been doing well, though there are a few who are finally starting to figure out how to beat it straight up. I will say, I'm not quite sure how to beat swarm hosts on certain maps... and it really bugs me that we're supposed to be balance testing this game with the map pool we have where one race is significantly stronger than another on whatever map it may be for instance if there is only one attack path to an expo and you cannot run around swarm host positioning even to counter... I'll hopefully be able to put some more time into the patch over the next few days/weekend and see how well things work out. him and you are both wrong what hes wrong about is he said nothing has changed about mech. thats wrong. now the counter to mech is skytoss (because immortals no longer counter mech). fix skytoss and you will fix mech you are wrong if you think avilo isnt completely 100% correct that skytoss is pretty BS right now in the beta. as a master protoss I feel skytoss needs heavy changes. "air" should not be viable in a RTS. it was the biggest problem with zerg for 2 years in WoL (and still is the problem with zerg). RTS should be ~80% ground focused ~20% air focused to be exciting. blizzard is making a mistake if they want "air" to be viable for protoss in hots. I think you've completely misunderstood what I've said. I never said the game is or isn't broken. I said when you play horrible, make excuses, and cannot maintain an objective standpoint on the game then you should not even be allowed into the discussion. If you can get past emotional barriers then we can begin to discuss balance and how the matchup is played/problems in it etc. I mean, the game he's trying to claim that proves the imbalance of protoss in PvT is below... The VoD the game is here on his stream: http://www.twitch.tv/avilo/b/355563217 -- 2 hours 23 minutes my POV: http://www.twitch.tv/kyo7763/b/355579811 -- 1 hour 8 minutes (sorry my frames start to drop due to school net / I assume someone who watches my stream won't get my very thick sense of humor. I'm joking throughout my commentary.) I can always supply a replay if you'd like to look at everything from an on top view. But just a few things to note... his avg apm over the game: 276 versus mine: 350.. ending number of minerals/gas his: 2.5k/5k versus mine: 20k/12k........................ numbers of bases still with resources on their side of the map his: 3 FULL bases versus mine: 2 bases with 300 patches... I mean the list goes on and on, but if he is seriously trying to say that this game is why PvT is imbalanced idk... I mean.. I even went colossus drop as opener -_-;; Virtually every mech game is like that. From the start of the game you basically could do whatever you wanted. You opened with a collosus drop that if i had opened bio is easy as hell to handle. Instead a single collosus and warp prism can man handle mech. I've beaten you with bio plenty of times, but then when i go mech suddenly you seem pro level! I also often play mech into lategame from both sides of the match-up, PvT and TvP and it's incredibly broken in P's favor. The moment you know it's Pvmech Tempest + templar solves everything. Also, if you get even 1 warp prism through vs mech, it's basically gg.
I can't recall any game you've beaten me in HotS with or without mech. Here is the last game we played before this: http://drop.sc/293433 You went bio this game. You almost won but you did not. Again, if you'd like to just make stuff up that's fine. However, if you'd actually like to have a good discussion about the game instead of just flaming these forums with whining about losing you need to rethink how you approach the game issues at hand... :l
P.S: I'm not pro and never will be. I played like 10 games a week in 2012 and barely have time for HotS now being a full time student. Additionally: I also often play mech into lategame from both sides of the match-up, PvT and TvP and it's incredibly broken in P's favor.
Is horrible logic so please stop. You're completely going over the original point I made about how to actually get to the bottom of these issues by saying something like this. :/
ah edit: I recall the one other time we played before this now. I did the same proxy dt build and killed you with it straight up because you went for a marine mine timing attack. These are the 3 times we've played in HotS. You've won zero. =( WoL, like I said, I can't even remember the last time we played versus each other in that :p
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On January 10 2013 16:32 -Kyo- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 16:26 avilo wrote:On January 10 2013 15:58 -Kyo- wrote:On January 10 2013 15:45 bankobauss wrote:On January 10 2013 15:40 -Kyo- wrote:On January 10 2013 13:14 avilo wrote:
So, I played a few games, HSM energy change is of course good because now you build the unit and it is able to do something! Aka, you build ravens, they have a missile, so if Zerg remaxes on 20 corruptors or what not you actually have a fighting chance.
As for mech TvP...played 1 game of it, and that's enough for me. Nothing changed. Tempest + templar still beats everything, add in carriers and it's even worse for Terran/mech. As explained in the game: You played horrible and therefore you lost. The only factor that has not changed is how you just assume the match up should be played. After the game you proceeded to make excuses on your stream, lie about how good you are with bio, and even called me out saying you beat me all the time in WoL and that I suck. I don't really understand why, but it's quite saddening to see a player be well regarded by many viewers in the community while acting simply pathetic. To clarify, I've played you many times in HotS and WoL and I'm quite sure I have not lost to you since probably 2011, of course I could very well be wrong about this, I am sure I have a very large winning record against you. I'm know I've played you a number of times on my other HotS acc and even when you played bio you proceeded to lose. This I can supply a replay of even though I do constantly wipe them. However, if it makes you feel better in front of your viewers you can continue to lie. I find it much without basis though.. even though when I do type something about your character I attempt to be nice about your skill set and the way you try to play the game; however,I will continue to maintain the argument I bring up constantly which is: you have no idea what you're talking about in terms of balance and need to stop deluding this forum with mindless posts that are only bound to emotion instead of rationale. Moving past this though, this patch is significantly better for PvP due to the fact that now DTs are not completely useless mid game. I think there are still many issues though. I'm not sure how I feel about the mothership core yet.. I do wish it was exclusively a defensive unit to avoid needless early game abuse versus certain terran builds; and likewise, to allow room for an additional ground protoss unit based around micro or something of the sort. I feel like they're getting all jumbled up with what to do with the mothership core.. Currently, my PvZ build has been doing well, though there are a few who are finally starting to figure out how to beat it straight up. I will say, I'm not quite sure how to beat swarm hosts on certain maps... and it really bugs me that we're supposed to be balance testing this game with the map pool we have where one race is significantly stronger than another on whatever map it may be for instance if there is only one attack path to an expo and you cannot run around swarm host positioning even to counter... I'll hopefully be able to put some more time into the patch over the next few days/weekend and see how well things work out. him and you are both wrong what hes wrong about is he said nothing has changed about mech. thats wrong. now the counter to mech is skytoss (because immortals no longer counter mech). fix skytoss and you will fix mech you are wrong if you think avilo isnt completely 100% correct that skytoss is pretty BS right now in the beta. as a master protoss I feel skytoss needs heavy changes. "air" should not be viable in a RTS. it was the biggest problem with zerg for 2 years in WoL (and still is the problem with zerg). RTS should be ~80% ground focused ~20% air focused to be exciting. blizzard is making a mistake if they want "air" to be viable for protoss in hots. I think you've completely misunderstood what I've said. I never said the game is or isn't broken. I said when you play horrible, make excuses, and cannot maintain an objective standpoint on the game then you should not even be allowed into the discussion. If you can get past emotional barriers then we can begin to discuss balance and how the matchup is played/problems in it etc. I mean, the game he's trying to claim that proves the imbalance of protoss in PvT is below... The VoD the game is here on his stream: http://www.twitch.tv/avilo/b/355563217 -- 2 hours 23 minutes my POV: http://www.twitch.tv/kyo7763/b/355579811 -- 1 hour 8 minutes (sorry my frames start to drop due to school net / I assume someone who watches my stream won't get my very thick sense of humor. I'm joking throughout my commentary.) I can always supply a replay if you'd like to look at everything from an on top view. But just a few things to note... his avg apm over the game: 276 versus mine: 350.. ending number of minerals/gas his: 2.5k/5k versus mine: 20k/12k........................ numbers of bases still with resources on their side of the map his: 3 FULL bases versus mine: 2 bases with 300 patches... I mean the list goes on and on, but if he is seriously trying to say that this game is why PvT is imbalanced idk... I mean.. I even went colossus drop as opener -_-;; Virtually every mech game is like that. From the start of the game you basically could do whatever you wanted. You opened with a collosus drop that if i had opened bio is easy as hell to handle. Instead a single collosus and warp prism can man handle mech. I've beaten you with bio plenty of times, but then when i go mech suddenly you seem pro level! I also often play mech into lategame from both sides of the match-up, PvT and TvP and it's incredibly broken in P's favor. The moment you know it's Pvmech Tempest + templar solves everything. Also, if you get even 1 warp prism through vs mech, it's basically gg. I can't recall any game you've beaten me in HotS with or without mech. Here is the last game we played before this: http://drop.sc/293433 You went bio this game. You almost won but you did not. Again, if you'd like to just make stuff up that's fine. However, if you'd actually like to have a good discussion about the game instead of just flaming these forums with whining about losing you need to rethink how you approach the game issues at hand... :l P.S: I'm not pro and never will be. I played like 10 games a week in 2012 and barely have time for HotS now being a full time student. Additionally: Show nested quote +I also often play mech into lategame from both sides of the match-up, PvT and TvP and it's incredibly broken in P's favor. Is horrible logic so please stop. You're completely going over the original point I made about how to actually get to the bottom of these issues by saying something like this. :/
No one is flaming these forums. You're dellusional if you think mech vs protoss changed any though or that tempests don't absolutely hard counter mech with zero thought behind it required.
I can play PvT at grandmasters level, same for PvZ. I don't think i've lost a single game in PvT when the Terran has gone for mech because it's too easily abusable, and with the new DT accessibility with warp prisms, it's even better for P vs mech.
Same for PvZ. When i've gotten to templar + tempest lategame, which isn't that hard, i haven't lost.
The point is mech vs P was not addressed in this last patch with the changes they have made here, and in fact it AGAIN got worse with a battle hellion nerf.
None of the mech vs P issues were addressed in the slightest.
You're also quite arrogant to think i was basing any of my contributions to the forums here off of any games with you. I've played a hell of a ton of mech tvp from wings of liberty beta up until now in the HOTS beta. So has a lot of other people. No one cares about your single game on ladder. My analysis is after thousands of games played (mech vs P) over the course of my playtime, and it still sucks that mech is like this bad (vs P).
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Sigh, As a protoss player so sad to see this siege tank patch.....so worthless
what should happen to tank
revert stupid patch 11 change to tanks
First off
stage one: change tank supply to 2 supply down from 3
Allows heavier tank comp without sacrificing support or Allows heavier support of tanks in mid to late game
Test for 2 weeks
Stage 2 if neccessary: add upgrade that allows for fast siege deployment so gives better mobility (siege tank pushing can move at snail speed instead of severely crippled snail speed.
Test for 2 weeks
Stage 3 if neccessary: Damage buff
Depending on how successful it is Stage 2 and 3 may not even be neccessary
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Deleted because I actually dont want to get involved with this thread haha, also lack of a beta means I cant test anything.
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I like the tank buff, reapers are once again useless though...
but at the same time, prior to this patch you were forced to go reaper in TvT
i have a feeling they have no idea how to fix the early game TvT lol
they should also leave the med healing upgrade in the game or that upgrade will be useless once again..
aaand, the delay from the raven was ok at 3, 5 is too much.
this patch is ok-ish.
i hope they add another terran unit tho
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WHY would you ever remove siege mode?
it does not change anything about TvP mech lategame..
Reapers should stay with the nitro packs else they are super useless lategame..
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What?
Blizzard, please, understand: Terran does not need changes in early game. We need to have something for late game! And taking away new healing you took away us only late game change for Terran in HotS.
This changes for Terran won't last long as it makes T too powerful in early game. 2 years has been Blizzard nerfing Terran. coz Terran was too strong in early game, too strong in all-ins. Just to make same mistakes in HotS.
EDIT: oh, and what was wrong with Hellions? Why would you want to ruin it?
In other words: What the f**** is this s***?
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Wow I play Terran and I'm not liking this siege tank change. This doesn't make siege tanks any better, or just opens up for some unnecessary timing attacks...
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On January 10 2013 16:00 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 15:45 bankobauss wrote:On January 10 2013 15:40 -Kyo- wrote:On January 10 2013 13:14 avilo wrote:
So, I played a few games, HSM energy change is of course good because now you build the unit and it is able to do something! Aka, you build ravens, they have a missile, so if Zerg remaxes on 20 corruptors or what not you actually have a fighting chance.
As for mech TvP...played 1 game of it, and that's enough for me. Nothing changed. Tempest + templar still beats everything, add in carriers and it's even worse for Terran/mech. As explained in the game: You played horrible and therefore you lost. The only factor that has not changed is how you just assume the match up should be played. After the game you proceeded to make excuses on your stream, lie about how good you are with bio, and even called me out saying you beat me all the time in WoL and that I suck. I don't really understand why, but it's quite saddening to see a player be well regarded by many viewers in the community while acting simply pathetic. To clarify, I've played you many times in HotS and WoL and I'm quite sure I have not lost to you since probably 2011, of course I could very well be wrong about this, I am sure I have a very large winning record against you. I'm know I've played you a number of times on my other HotS acc and even when you played bio you proceeded to lose. This I can supply a replay of even though I do constantly wipe them. However, if it makes you feel better in front of your viewers you can continue to lie. I find it much without basis though.. even though when I do type something about your character I attempt to be nice about your skill set and the way you try to play the game; however,I will continue to maintain the argument I bring up constantly which is: you have no idea what you're talking about in terms of balance and need to stop deluding this forum with mindless posts that are only bound to emotion instead of rationale. Moving past this though, this patch is significantly better for PvP due to the fact that now DTs are not completely useless mid game. I think there are still many issues though. I'm not sure how I feel about the mothership core yet.. I do wish it was exclusively a defensive unit to avoid needless early game abuse versus certain terran builds; and likewise, to allow room for an additional ground protoss unit based around micro or something of the sort. I feel like they're getting all jumbled up with what to do with the mothership core.. Currently, my PvZ build has been doing well, though there are a few who are finally starting to figure out how to beat it straight up. I will say, I'm not quite sure how to beat swarm hosts on certain maps... and it really bugs me that we're supposed to be balance testing this game with the map pool we have where one race is significantly stronger than another on whatever map it may be for instance if there is only one attack path to an expo and you cannot run around swarm host positioning even to counter... I'll hopefully be able to put some more time into the patch over the next few days/weekend and see how well things work out. him and you are both wrong what hes wrong about is he said nothing has changed about mech. thats wrong. now the counter to mech is skytoss (because immortals no longer counter mech). fix skytoss and you will fix mech you are wrong if you think avilo isnt completely 100% correct that skytoss is pretty BS right now in the beta. as a master protoss I feel skytoss needs heavy changes. "air" should not be viable in a RTS. it was the biggest problem with zerg for 2 years in WoL (and still is the problem with zerg). RTS should be ~80% ground focused ~20% air focused to be exciting. blizzard is making a mistake if they want "air" to be viable for protoss in hots. No no no, immortals didnt just disappear. They are still extremely good, and counter mech hard. The reason you see Sky Toss is because its better not because immortals are suddenly countered by mech. I agree tho that I absolutely do not want to here or see SKYTOSS anymore. If this game becomes about making a big fleet its going to be terrible. Air units are important but should not be the main army.
Yes yes yes, immortals as a counter to mech did just disappear. They no longer counter mech at all due to hellbats which when combo'ed with tanks beat immortals. Terrans talking about the "immortal problem" really havent truly tested it much in HOTS, because "the immortal problem" no longer exists there.
it was pointless to open mech safely before the siegetank buff because you died to all-ins, but if the terran got mech up and running he should have noticed 100% of the time it was skytoss that was raping him, not immortals
If skytoss is removed, mech would be imbalanced currently against protoss. Hellbats are the same cost and food as zealots but beefier, stronger, and mech compositions currently pretty much defeat all toss ground compositions which is why every toss goes 100% mass air every TvP game now because its his only option if he wants to win if his opponent doesnt suck.
im not defending protoss, i believe skytoss should be nerfed. however open your eyes, the true thing mech needs is something like the goliath to counter skytoss, or preferably skytoss needs to be nerfed into the ground because it goes against the spirit of RTS to have "air" be a strategy that pros use
the immortal now isnt even a "soft counter" to mech, they barely trade evenly if they are lucky but usually just get obliterated.
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On January 10 2013 16:37 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 16:32 -Kyo- wrote:On January 10 2013 16:26 avilo wrote:On January 10 2013 15:58 -Kyo- wrote:On January 10 2013 15:45 bankobauss wrote:On January 10 2013 15:40 -Kyo- wrote:On January 10 2013 13:14 avilo wrote:
So, I played a few games, HSM energy change is of course good because now you build the unit and it is able to do something! Aka, you build ravens, they have a missile, so if Zerg remaxes on 20 corruptors or what not you actually have a fighting chance.
As for mech TvP...played 1 game of it, and that's enough for me. Nothing changed. Tempest + templar still beats everything, add in carriers and it's even worse for Terran/mech. As explained in the game: You played horrible and therefore you lost. The only factor that has not changed is how you just assume the match up should be played. After the game you proceeded to make excuses on your stream, lie about how good you are with bio, and even called me out saying you beat me all the time in WoL and that I suck. I don't really understand why, but it's quite saddening to see a player be well regarded by many viewers in the community while acting simply pathetic. To clarify, I've played you many times in HotS and WoL and I'm quite sure I have not lost to you since probably 2011, of course I could very well be wrong about this, I am sure I have a very large winning record against you. I'm know I've played you a number of times on my other HotS acc and even when you played bio you proceeded to lose. This I can supply a replay of even though I do constantly wipe them. However, if it makes you feel better in front of your viewers you can continue to lie. I find it much without basis though.. even though when I do type something about your character I attempt to be nice about your skill set and the way you try to play the game; however,I will continue to maintain the argument I bring up constantly which is: you have no idea what you're talking about in terms of balance and need to stop deluding this forum with mindless posts that are only bound to emotion instead of rationale. Moving past this though, this patch is significantly better for PvP due to the fact that now DTs are not completely useless mid game. I think there are still many issues though. I'm not sure how I feel about the mothership core yet.. I do wish it was exclusively a defensive unit to avoid needless early game abuse versus certain terran builds; and likewise, to allow room for an additional ground protoss unit based around micro or something of the sort. I feel like they're getting all jumbled up with what to do with the mothership core.. Currently, my PvZ build has been doing well, though there are a few who are finally starting to figure out how to beat it straight up. I will say, I'm not quite sure how to beat swarm hosts on certain maps... and it really bugs me that we're supposed to be balance testing this game with the map pool we have where one race is significantly stronger than another on whatever map it may be for instance if there is only one attack path to an expo and you cannot run around swarm host positioning even to counter... I'll hopefully be able to put some more time into the patch over the next few days/weekend and see how well things work out. him and you are both wrong what hes wrong about is he said nothing has changed about mech. thats wrong. now the counter to mech is skytoss (because immortals no longer counter mech). fix skytoss and you will fix mech you are wrong if you think avilo isnt completely 100% correct that skytoss is pretty BS right now in the beta. as a master protoss I feel skytoss needs heavy changes. "air" should not be viable in a RTS. it was the biggest problem with zerg for 2 years in WoL (and still is the problem with zerg). RTS should be ~80% ground focused ~20% air focused to be exciting. blizzard is making a mistake if they want "air" to be viable for protoss in hots. I think you've completely misunderstood what I've said. I never said the game is or isn't broken. I said when you play horrible, make excuses, and cannot maintain an objective standpoint on the game then you should not even be allowed into the discussion. If you can get past emotional barriers then we can begin to discuss balance and how the matchup is played/problems in it etc. I mean, the game he's trying to claim that proves the imbalance of protoss in PvT is below... The VoD the game is here on his stream: http://www.twitch.tv/avilo/b/355563217 -- 2 hours 23 minutes my POV: http://www.twitch.tv/kyo7763/b/355579811 -- 1 hour 8 minutes (sorry my frames start to drop due to school net / I assume someone who watches my stream won't get my very thick sense of humor. I'm joking throughout my commentary.) I can always supply a replay if you'd like to look at everything from an on top view. But just a few things to note... his avg apm over the game: 276 versus mine: 350.. ending number of minerals/gas his: 2.5k/5k versus mine: 20k/12k........................ numbers of bases still with resources on their side of the map his: 3 FULL bases versus mine: 2 bases with 300 patches... I mean the list goes on and on, but if he is seriously trying to say that this game is why PvT is imbalanced idk... I mean.. I even went colossus drop as opener -_-;; Virtually every mech game is like that. From the start of the game you basically could do whatever you wanted. You opened with a collosus drop that if i had opened bio is easy as hell to handle. Instead a single collosus and warp prism can man handle mech. I've beaten you with bio plenty of times, but then when i go mech suddenly you seem pro level! I also often play mech into lategame from both sides of the match-up, PvT and TvP and it's incredibly broken in P's favor. The moment you know it's Pvmech Tempest + templar solves everything. Also, if you get even 1 warp prism through vs mech, it's basically gg. I can't recall any game you've beaten me in HotS with or without mech. Here is the last game we played before this: http://drop.sc/293433 You went bio this game. You almost won but you did not. Again, if you'd like to just make stuff up that's fine. However, if you'd actually like to have a good discussion about the game instead of just flaming these forums with whining about losing you need to rethink how you approach the game issues at hand... :l P.S: I'm not pro and never will be. I played like 10 games a week in 2012 and barely have time for HotS now being a full time student. Additionally: I also often play mech into lategame from both sides of the match-up, PvT and TvP and it's incredibly broken in P's favor. Is horrible logic so please stop. You're completely going over the original point I made about how to actually get to the bottom of these issues by saying something like this. :/ I can play PvT at grandmasters level, same for PvZ. I don't think i've lost a single game in PvT when the Terran has gone for mech because it's too easily abusable, and with the new DT accessibility with warp prisms, it's even better for P vs mech.
More or less sums up the current situation of the game. Before I switched to random and used to play Terran I could off-race and do (significantly) better vs mech than meching vs others.
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EPT
