Beta Balance Update #11 (Jan 9, 2013) - Page 28

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syroz

France249 Posts

January 10 2013 02:55 GMT

#541

On January 10 2013 11:52 zhurai wrote:

Show nested quote +

just because something can kill a lot of units if the opponent isn't focusing, doesn't mean it's "super OP"

Figure of speech. Anyway protoss will feel the way terran feel (at least a couple of week), beeing focus all the game or die :D

playnice

Malaysia302 Posts

January 10 2013 02:56 GMT

#542

On January 10 2013 11:54 ke_ivan wrote:
I think the siege tank upgrade removal is really unbalanced... and I'm terran! I think tech lab is still needed to build siege tanks. This is gonna make the game faster for terran mech. Much much faster.

If i'm reading this correctly, you'll still need to have a tech lab to build siege tanks. The difference is the upgrade is no longer available.

Yoshi Kirishima

United States10364 Posts

January 10 2013 02:58 GMT

#543

On January 10 2013 10:41 Sapphire.lux wrote:

Show nested quote +

What do you think removing the upgrades addresses and do you think this is what mech was missing from becoming strong?

Well unintentional or intentional, this is how I see it:

Easier to tech, as they say. This is pretty important because I feel mech is too slow to get started up. There aren't that many ways to be greedy and get fast 3 bases like in the other MUs (whether it be bio or mech). Liquid Sea may have been onto something with his mech TvP, but now he's retired, he can't really prove if his build/style would still work after a few more months of him doing it. And he certainly couldn't do it over and over in a BoX, since he could get build order sniped (he probably wouldn't die instantly since his build is able to adapt early on, but yea he'd be taken advantage of).

Anyways, I guess the free 100/100 just makes mech a lot more flexible without effecting TvZ nor TvT in particularly bad or imbalanced ways. Besides, it's not like anyone wants to make Siege Tanks just for unsieged tanks right? It's not really a choice to get siege mode. Maybe it kept BW balanced, but maybe it's better this way for SC2.

Of course it's probably not close enough to perfect yet, but it's a step that should help a little. (Little risk/change, great reward).

Now it'll be easier to defend all-ins (don't have to worry about choosing siege mode or not if you don't have enough scouting info, and if you do have enough scouting info but aren't ready, then it'll help too) and make 1 Rax gasless expand a lot easier with fast siege mode tanks for defense.

It'll also be easier to get defense while getting a fast third with some harass/map control (like 1 rax gasless expand into cloak shee + quick siege tanks), so we shouldn't be seeing only a turtle fest terran like in WoL, trying not to die, or seeing a very aggressive kind (like a 2 base aggression build), but hopefully more early 3 base builds (or rather, 3 OC builds). Not too sure on if it's a great idea having a mecher to be able to get a quick 3rd OC up, but i mean they can do it in TvP bio or TvZ bio or marine/tank where they might even have 4 OC on 2 base. So I feel that mech not being able to do that as easily in TvP is another disadvantage that has been slightly addressed ( i think it's enough though... don't want to see a mecher outexpand a protoss lol ).

Well, that's my thoughts for now...

On another note, just gonna say again... holy fuck hellbats are so strong, or have I just been to used to super weak mech? XD

AxionSteel

United States7754 Posts

January 10 2013 02:59 GMT

#544

Seems to me that they see a bad Terran unit and their solution is simply to remove an upgrade. On WoL they removed the seeker missile upgrade, now they remove the siege upgrade and think it'll fix Mech. Ooookayy

happyness

United States2400 Posts

January 10 2013 03:00 GMT

#545

I'm glad for the terran attention, but it seems like blizzard doesn't know what to do at this point and are just making random changes.....

Ldawg

United States328 Posts

January 10 2013 03:05 GMT

#546

My concern about swapping the Oracle and MSC abilities is this may result in restricting Protoss into Robo builds with anything else carrying a large risk vs. cloaked banshees. It might be possible to scout with the MSC core before any cloaked banshee timings, however.

I was enjoying the non-Robo openings and hopefully that can still be done without the huge vulnerability to cloak openings. The idea of getting a stargate to build a unit that can't attack air but has an energy ability to detect banshees just seems odd.

Doc Daneeka

United States577 Posts

January 10 2013 03:07 GMT

#547

i feel like this is the first across-the-board bad patch so far. i hope most of it gets reverted. the only thing i like is giving hsm back splash damage, cos the new version was basically just yamato cannon junior. everything else is completely wtf. even reverting to the old caduceus reactor is kind of uncalled for - it was a decent idea, just overpowered. how in god's name did they NOT think it would result in more mmm? the hellbat bio modifier is weird anyway and i'm still tapping my foot while they continue to not change that for some reason. and what purpose could the msc having time warp possibly serve? just a bizzare patch all around.

mongoose22

174 Posts

January 10 2013 03:10 GMT

#548

Those are some wild Hellbat changes. The walker form now does base damage equivalent to a Roach, albeit at half range, and the anti-Light damage is terrifying. What's the weapon upgrade add? Because if it's +2, a fully upgraded Hellbat would be able to one-shot a Zergling (24+12 = 36). Lost a lot of its overlapping coverage on its attack, though.

HollowLord

United States3862 Posts

January 10 2013 03:11 GMT

#549

On January 10 2013 11:59 AxionSteel wrote:
Seems to me that they see a bad Terran unit and their solution is simply to remove an upgrade. On WoL they removed the seeker missile upgrade, now they remove the siege upgrade and think it'll fix Mech. Ooookayy

Don't worry, it's not like they'll get rid of the Khaydarin Amulet, Phase Shift, Ultralisk Speed Upgrade, Flux Vanes, Frenzy, and Defensive Matrix.

Oh wait...

SolidMoose

United States1240 Posts

January 10 2013 03:12 GMT

#550

Well I was right about caduceus. It's back to +25 energy. Good job to all the people who didn't believe me XD

akademikx

37 Posts

January 10 2013 03:13 GMT

#551

On January 10 2013 12:12 SolidMoose wrote:
Well I was right about caduceus. It's back to +25 energy. Good job to all the people who didn't believe me XD

cept now it requires a fusion core 8D

neoghaleon55

United States7435 Posts

January 10 2013 03:15 GMT

#552

On January 10 2013 12:13 akademikx wrote:

Show nested quote +

cept now it requires a fusion core 8D

omg
didn't realize that...now that upgrade will be super useless

akademikx

37 Posts

January 10 2013 03:17 GMT

#553

On January 10 2013 12:15 neoghaleon55 wrote:

Show nested quote +

omg
didn't realize that...now that upgrade will be super useless

yeah. the sc2 balance team is laughably incompetent

FalletLoki

United States2 Posts

January 10 2013 03:18 GMT

#554

I do believe that this will make TaeJa finally incorporate earlier tanks in his bio build XD haha. Honestly i do like this overall it seems like some changes will go, but mostly pretty awesome.

Yoshi Kirishima

United States10364 Posts

January 10 2013 03:18 GMT

#555

On January 10 2013 09:24 Sapphire.lux wrote:
First thing that jumped to mind is how will Helbats deal with Zealots with the small AOE. I hope they didn't break one of the only good things they managed to do with mech.

The Tank "buff" is a joke, just that. It helps for defense but in a very boring way. Takes decisions and suspense away from the game.

The Raven change sound great. Although, will the targeted unit light up red still?

Over all, Tanks still suck and so will mech in TvP. I hope they can do better then this, sigh...

Don't lose hope. This patch makes ground BROKEN for terran. Remember it's a cone shape AOE, so it's still very effective (the 15 degrees after the right angle of 90 makes it hit to the sides, but you should have hellions there anyways).

Anyways 30 damage against zealots WITHOUT BFH is ridiculous. You can just go in a game and do a 1 or 2 base rush of mass hellbats, it is just so funny. Not sure how to stop it in TvP to be honest, and probably is still strong in TvT, probably more strong in TvZ.

The reduced AOE may sound really bad, but this helps TvP early on even more. Although there is less splash, it is easier for hellbats to deal with small groups of units now. This makes mech scale slightly weaker but makes its scaling lategame more linear as opposed to "exponential" with the lategame scaling of splash damage in general.

However, this is a huge damage buff, from 10+4 vs light to 18+ vs light. And it doesn't even need an upgrade ;O just armory. So even without splash, it'll still be great lategame.

I think it also fixes the problem of mech not being able to hold against small zealot warp ins, since hellbats do good damage against small groups of units without having to rely so much on mass splash. The splash is still decent, but now hellbats are truly strong, considering how immobile they are (can be outranged and can be out run). So maybe we can now put some hellbats + tanks + WM to hold some areas unless protoss wants to trade slightly inefficiently or move a large portion of his army there.

bankobauss

204 Posts

January 10 2013 03:27 GMT

#556

at this point the blueflame upgrade is almost pointless as lategame TvP and TvZ actual successful hellion harassment lategame (or earlygame) is usually never ever seen (maybe only seen in 0.0001% of games)

considering hellions will essentially always be used for combat in battle mode, the blueflame upgrade will essentially never ever have a reason to be researched in the current state of the game

IMO its probably a better idea to have a 100/100 upgrade in the techlab for battle hellions that takes as long as armory to upgrade, thus preventing a terran from being able to get reactor hellions + factory + battlemode at the same time\

EDIT: never mind, never mind, i now think the best way to do it is to keep hellions at 18 damage in battlemode, and they dont get +12 light until blueflame is researched

Warpish

834 Posts

January 10 2013 03:32 GMT

#557

If not even the blue flame upgrade can be used to improve the Hellbats, wouldn't it be logical to separate the two units?

Maybe replace it for some bio unit called Firebat that could be healed with Medivacs...

docvoc

United States5491 Posts

January 10 2013 03:37 GMT

#558

I'm very confused by these changes. Some of them seem to be purely aesthetic in reality (such as the seige tank buff) and some of these are just plain random. I don't know what to make of this. The fact that they took out vortex makes me very angry though, since they have now relieved protoss of one of the main late game abilities that has been used to kill blord-festor.