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Now terran just needs goliaths, or something similar.
You know, Blizzard, making the Thor switch between multi-target mode and single-target mode makes you look like you are trying to polish a turd. You know a really simple way to either do more damage to one target, or hit multiple targets? HAVE MULTIPLE UNITS. Three goliaths don't need splash damage- they can hit three mutas anyway. And they can focus fire on a single target and do increased damage.
Thors are an incredibly poorly designed unit, always have been. "Let the art lead" because giant mechs are cool? Seriously?
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Holy shit they actually added the micro back??? what the fuck
That's surprising... ACTUALLY ITS NOT. I totally forgot about the tempest nerf, no more massive damage vs ground, meaning it doesn't own thors anymore. So now Tempest is solution to colossi/BL and capital ships in the air, and Carrier is good against mech and has its own uses!
NICE!!!
I doubted they would change the carrier back to this or even keep it in the game, because its role overlapped with the previous tempest, except it just has a little less range than tempest.
Damn blizzard, so fucking impressed as always with their patches. But now more than ever
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Although it goes without saying that I have a massive erection, I don't know if this will be enough in practice.
Smart-fire still means that incerceptors will melt to any form of AA (especially marines), they can still be fungaled, and the carrier itself is still incredibly squishy versus both corruptors and vikings.
I'm excited that they made the change, but I'm pretty sure the carrier is still en route.
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On December 07 2012 08:52 ledarsi wrote:
Now terran just needs goliaths, or something similar.
You know, Blizzard, making the Thor switch between multi-target mode and single-target mode makes you look like you are trying to polish a turd. You know a really simple way to either do more damage to one target, or hit multiple targets? HAVE MULTIPLE UNITS. Three goliaths don't need splash damage- they can hit three mutas anyway. And they can focus fire on a single target and do increased damage.
Thors are an incredibly poorly designed unit, always have been. "Let the art lead" because giant mechs are cool? Seriously?
They have vikings already. With the micro back for the carrier, there will be similar micro with the Viking (except perhaps a little less frustrating now, since it can fly) in the way that you must choose whether to pursue the carriers or back up, and trying to mess up the carrier micro etc.
Also... a thor can do much more damage if they clump up a lot. So it's not quite the same. And did you forget thors have great DPS vs ground?
And you have vikings already. So the goliath role for mech was split up into viking and thor, which is nice because there is more specialization, while bio compositions can use thors and vikings too, offering more strategy in picking which units to use than simply using only marines (and the occasional valkyries) or only goliaths (and sometimes wraiths).
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On December 07 2012 08:52 ledarsi wrote:
Now terran just needs goliaths, or something similar.
You know, Blizzard, making the Thor switch between multi-target mode and single-target mode makes you look like you are trying to polish a turd. You know a really simple way to either do more damage to one target, or hit multiple targets? HAVE MULTIPLE UNITS. Three goliaths don't need splash damage- they can hit three mutas anyway. And they can focus fire on a single target and do increased damage.
Thors are an incredibly poorly designed unit, always have been. "Let the art lead" because giant mechs are cool? Seriously?
You know, Thors are more than just anti-air. They do strong single-target damage at a healthy range. They have lots of Hp, so that they can soak damage. And their large size means that AoE doesn't hurt them nearly as much.
The only reason they weren't viable in TvP before now was that they had energy (for a worthless ability) and thus were susceptible to Feedback. That's gone now.
Going back to the Goliath would be a mistake at this point; you'd be throwing away a worthwhile unit for something easily killed and who's GtG attack is hardly impressive. In short, you'd be using a one-dimensional unit that you only build in response to someone going air.
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Regardless of whether there is a Viking in the game, the Thor would be better designed to be replaced with a 2 supply version of itself, with less HP and damage. If you want to split the Goliath into two units, an anti-air one and an anti-ground one, then you should have a 2 supply Viking (in the game) and a 2 supply ground mech from the factory. It can be good against ground, and less strong against air than the Viking, that would be acceptable. Heck, make it an anti-light anti-air attack, similar to the thor's. But the huge mech thing is boring, leads to deathballs, and limits terran's options for producing them and distributing them around the map.
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On December 07 2012 09:06 ledarsi wrote:
Regardless of whether there is a Viking in the game, the Thor would be better designed to be replaced with a 2 supply version of itself, with less HP and damage. If you want to split the Goliath into two units, an anti-air one and an anti-ground one, then you should have a 2 supply Viking (in the game) and a 2 supply ground mech from the factory. It can be good against ground, and less strong against air than the Viking, that would be acceptable. Heck, make it an anti-light anti-air attack, similar to the thor's. But the huge mech thing is boring, leads to deathballs, and limits terran's options for producing them and distributing them around the map.
Which forces the Terran to have to diversify their economy instead of just building everything from the Factory. And since factory and ship upgrades all work the same now... I don't see the problem with it. If you're serious about anti-air, bring out your Vikings. If you need just some anti-air, you have your Thors.
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On December 07 2012 05:07 urashimakt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 02:49 RavenLoud wrote:
Wait, if the unit you attack first dies while you're in leash range, does the interceptors return to the carrier or do they auto-target something else?
(Assuming that you didn't have time to issue another attack command, e.g. you killed a marine instantaneously.) If you do not issue a new attack target to the carrier within leash range then the interceptors will dutifully return to the carrier. Micro is required. If there is a target within launch range, however, that will be auto-acquired.
Darn, so basically it's impossible to use this micro against mid-low hp units once you get graviton catapult and a critical mass of carriers because you kill your first target way to fast to possibly give another attack command in time.
It'll only be useful in small numbers of carriers that allow you the time to target another enemy unit before the first one dies.
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Everyone who is happy about this change (and hopefully a followup change implementing the full version of BW carrier micro) should thank Tyler.
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On December 07 2012 09:21 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 05:07 urashimakt wrote:On December 07 2012 02:49 RavenLoud wrote:
Wait, if the unit you attack first dies while you're in leash range, does the interceptors return to the carrier or do they auto-target something else?
(Assuming that you didn't have time to issue another attack command, e.g. you killed a marine instantaneously.) If you do not issue a new attack target to the carrier within leash range then the interceptors will dutifully return to the carrier. Micro is required. If there is a target within launch range, however, that will be auto-acquired. Darn, so basically it's impossible to use this micro against mid-low hp units once you get graviton catapult and a critical mass of carriers because you kill your first target way to fast to possibly give another attack command in time. It'll only be useful in small numbers of carriers that allow you the time to target another enemy unit before the first one dies.
I'm fairly sure that you can re-target after the unit has died, provided you do so before the returning interceptors actually reach their carrier.
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Finally Blizzard getting the good stuff done. Loving this patch all over.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
I'm so annoyed Blizzard didn't publicise this fine change better, seems somewhat strange
Loving the change though, nice.
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So blizzard is actually fixing the game in HOTS!? this is looking good.
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unfortunately this change is almost completely irrelevant so far since carriers are still complete trash in the current game:
- zerg counter they very hard with corruptors, no micro saves you from that.
- protoss has the tempest now, can't do cute micro tricks against that. It's not even good enough against stlakers anyway to even have a chance even if you surprise your opponent
- terran did have some big weaknesses to the carrier if they went mech but with the thor and upgrade buff that is hardly true anymore, 1/0 or 2/0 carriers suck really hard against 3/3 vikings.
The problem with the carrier was never this lack of micro capability so well brought to attention by Nony. It's the fact the carrier is countered by air units.. There will never be any interesting carrier micro in sc2 because it's carrier vs viking, carrier vs corruptor or carrier vs tempest
There were some options to create interesting carrier play in hots, for example if they had given terran a goliath unit or if they had buffed the carrier for PvP and made the stalker the only counter. IF that had happened then this carrier micro stuff would be cool and something to rejoice about, now it's practically irrelevant...
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On December 07 2012 10:07 Markwerf wrote:
unfortunately this change is almost completely irrelevant so far since carriers are still complete trash in the current game:
- zerg counter they very hard with corruptors, no micro saves you from that.
- protoss has the tempest now, can't do cute micro tricks against that. It's not even good enough against stlakers anyway to even have a chance even if you surprise your opponent
- terran did have some big weaknesses to the carrier if they went mech but with the thor and upgrade buff that is hardly true anymore, 1/0 or 2/0 carriers suck really hard against 3/3 vikings.
The problem with the carrier was never this lack of micro capability so well brought to attention by Nony. It's the fact the carrier is countered by air units.. There will never be any interesting carrier micro in sc2 because it's carrier vs viking, carrier vs corruptor or carrier vs tempest
There were some options to create interesting carrier play in hots, for example if they had given terran a goliath unit or if they had buffed the carrier for PvP and made the stalker the only counter. IF that had happened then this carrier micro stuff would be cool and something to rejoice about, now it's practically irrelevant...
I don't know, the Carrier's problem was never its base stats.
A microable Carrier could at least be useful mixing into balanced compositions if it was done right. It was very all-or-nothing in WoL, which made it a lot more hard-counterable.
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This is absolutely wonderful, I have no idea why blizz wouldn't put this in the patch notes, but oh well, a huge buff to the carrier!
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On December 06 2012 19:18 Crawdad wrote:
I have heard this from other sources, so it might be legit.
Would be typical of Blizz not to document it, LOL.
Lol its probably in bug fixes.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On December 07 2012 12:47 Cyanocyst wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 19:18 Crawdad wrote:
I have heard this from other sources, so it might be legit.
Would be typical of Blizz not to document it, LOL. Lol its probably in bug fixes.
I would laugh so hard if they put a note like 'forgot to include any ability to micro the unit' beside it. Dustin 'Rock' Browder has the capacity for such self-deprecating humour I hope he rises to it.
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Does this include the micro trick where you move carriers so the interceptors don't come inside and when you hit attack, all interceptors near-instantaneously pop out again?
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On December 07 2012 14:03 Don.681 wrote:
Does this include the micro trick where you move carriers so the interceptors don't come inside and when you hit attack, all interceptors near-instantaneously pop out again?
Unfortunately, no. While the change in this patch was a step in the right direction, carrier micro won't be complete until they implement all of NonY's suggestions. As of right now, the moment the interceptors start to return to the carrier, you won't be able to deploy them again unless you're within 8 range of the target - and they don't deploy instantaneously either.
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EPT
