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On December 07 2012 09:48 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 09:21 RavenLoud wrote:On December 07 2012 05:07 urashimakt wrote:On December 07 2012 02:49 RavenLoud wrote:
Wait, if the unit you attack first dies while you're in leash range, does the interceptors return to the carrier or do they auto-target something else?
(Assuming that you didn't have time to issue another attack command, e.g. you killed a marine instantaneously.) If you do not issue a new attack target to the carrier within leash range then the interceptors will dutifully return to the carrier. Micro is required. If there is a target within launch range, however, that will be auto-acquired. Darn, so basically it's impossible to use this micro against mid-low hp units once you get graviton catapult and a critical mass of carriers because you kill your first target way to fast to possibly give another attack command in time. It'll only be useful in small numbers of carriers that allow you the time to target another enemy unit before the first one dies. I'm fairly sure that you can re-target after the unit has died, provided you do so before the returning interceptors actually reach their carrier.
Ah awesome, thanks for the info.
I'd like to see carrier armor being brought back to 4, especially if the merging of vehicle and air upgrades go through. Still, great change.
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On December 07 2012 08:58 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 08:52 ledarsi wrote:
Now terran just needs goliaths, or something similar.
You know, Blizzard, making the Thor switch between multi-target mode and single-target mode makes you look like you are trying to polish a turd. You know a really simple way to either do more damage to one target, or hit multiple targets? HAVE MULTIPLE UNITS. Three goliaths don't need splash damage- they can hit three mutas anyway. And they can focus fire on a single target and do increased damage.
Thors are an incredibly poorly designed unit, always have been. "Let the art lead" because giant mechs are cool? Seriously? They have vikings already. With the micro back for the carrier, there will be similar micro with the Viking (except perhaps a little less frustrating now, since it can fly) in the way that you must choose whether to pursue the carriers or back up, and trying to mess up the carrier micro etc. Also... a thor can do much more damage if they clump up a lot. So it's not quite the same. And did you forget thors have great DPS vs ground? And you have vikings already. So the goliath role for mech was split up into viking and thor, which is nice because there is more specialization, while bio compositions can use thors and vikings too, offering more strategy in picking which units to use than simply using only marines (and the occasional valkyries) or only goliaths (and sometimes wraiths).
Plus, combined Armory upgrades essentially means all Terran air units are now part of the Mech tech path, and the Viking's anti-air attack has a huge range advantage over the Goliath while doing roughly the same amount of damage. The Viking's ground attack has the same DPS as a Goliath, plus it looks like one to boot, too. Not starting with 1 armor is a detriment, though.
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Northern Ireland25247 Posts
On December 07 2012 15:05 mongoose22 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 08:58 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On December 07 2012 08:52 ledarsi wrote:
Now terran just needs goliaths, or something similar.
You know, Blizzard, making the Thor switch between multi-target mode and single-target mode makes you look like you are trying to polish a turd. You know a really simple way to either do more damage to one target, or hit multiple targets? HAVE MULTIPLE UNITS. Three goliaths don't need splash damage- they can hit three mutas anyway. And they can focus fire on a single target and do increased damage.
Thors are an incredibly poorly designed unit, always have been. "Let the art lead" because giant mechs are cool? Seriously? They have vikings already. With the micro back for the carrier, there will be similar micro with the Viking (except perhaps a little less frustrating now, since it can fly) in the way that you must choose whether to pursue the carriers or back up, and trying to mess up the carrier micro etc. Also... a thor can do much more damage if they clump up a lot. So it's not quite the same. And did you forget thors have great DPS vs ground? And you have vikings already. So the goliath role for mech was split up into viking and thor, which is nice because there is more specialization, while bio compositions can use thors and vikings too, offering more strategy in picking which units to use than simply using only marines (and the occasional valkyries) or only goliaths (and sometimes wraiths). Plus, combined Armory upgrades essentially means all Terran air units are now part of the Mech tech path, and the Viking's anti-air attack has a huge range advantage over the Goliath while doing roughly the same amount of damage. The Viking's ground attack has the same DPS as a Goliath, plus it looks like one to boot, too. Not starting with 1 armor is a detriment, though.
Hopefully they find a way. I was amazed at how little balancing they did to the Carrier throughout WoL, but this new patch has shown a willingness to try things so perhaps they will make it viable over time, even if it isn't immediately tearing things up
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On December 07 2012 14:21 flyingnimbus wrote:
Unfortunately, no. While the change in this patch was a step in the right direction, carrier micro won't be complete until they implement all of NonY's suggestions. As of right now, the moment the interceptors start to return to the carrier, you won't be able to deploy them again unless you're within 8 range of the target - and they don't deploy instantaneously either.
Agree. Maybe Blizzard is scared to remove "Gravitic Catapult". Still it's huge, the original SC 2 carrier was just so frustrating to use.
On December 07 2012 10:07 Markwerf wrote:
The problem with the carrier was never this lack of micro capability so well brought to attention by Nony. It's the fact the carrier is countered by air units.. There will never be any interesting carrier micro in sc2 because it's carrier vs viking, carrier vs corruptor or carrier vs tempest
Could very well be. Time will tell.
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On December 07 2012 19:31 IPS.Blue wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 14:21 flyingnimbus wrote:
Unfortunately, no. While the change in this patch was a step in the right direction, carrier micro won't be complete until they implement all of NonY's suggestions. As of right now, the moment the interceptors start to return to the carrier, you won't be able to deploy them again unless you're within 8 range of the target - and they don't deploy instantaneously either. Agree. Maybe Blizzard is scared to remove "Gravitic Catapult". Still it's huge, the original SC 2 carrier was just so frustrating to use. Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 10:07 Markwerf wrote:
The problem with the carrier was never this lack of micro capability so well brought to attention by Nony. It's the fact the carrier is countered by air units.. There will never be any interesting carrier micro in sc2 because it's carrier vs viking, carrier vs corruptor or carrier vs tempest Could very well be. Time will tell.
Corruptors are like devourers that cost 100m / 50g less and shoot twice as fast.
They also need to bring back the 4 armor, I dunno why they got rid of that =/
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On December 07 2012 20:24 Ooshmagoosh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 19:31 IPS.Blue wrote:On December 07 2012 14:21 flyingnimbus wrote:
Unfortunately, no. While the change in this patch was a step in the right direction, carrier micro won't be complete until they implement all of NonY's suggestions. As of right now, the moment the interceptors start to return to the carrier, you won't be able to deploy them again unless you're within 8 range of the target - and they don't deploy instantaneously either. Agree. Maybe Blizzard is scared to remove "Gravitic Catapult". Still it's huge, the original SC 2 carrier was just so frustrating to use. On December 07 2012 10:07 Markwerf wrote:
The problem with the carrier was never this lack of micro capability so well brought to attention by Nony. It's the fact the carrier is countered by air units.. There will never be any interesting carrier micro in sc2 because it's carrier vs viking, carrier vs corruptor or carrier vs tempest Could very well be. Time will tell. Corruptors are like devourers that cost 100m / 50g less and shoot twice as fast. They also need to bring back the 4 armor, I dunno why they got rid of that =/
crazy idea on how to balance corruptors: make corruption energy-based and make it cost 100 energy, give corruptors 400 energy max
then watch them get raped by feedback if you dont spend your energy 
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I love this. You don't even need interceptor follow, honestly. It is a little confusing and looks weird. But "hey, attack THAT now" is about as intuitive as it gets.
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On December 07 2012 20:24 Ooshmagoosh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 19:31 IPS.Blue wrote:On December 07 2012 14:21 flyingnimbus wrote:
Unfortunately, no. While the change in this patch was a step in the right direction, carrier micro won't be complete until they implement all of NonY's suggestions. As of right now, the moment the interceptors start to return to the carrier, you won't be able to deploy them again unless you're within 8 range of the target - and they don't deploy instantaneously either. Agree. Maybe Blizzard is scared to remove "Gravitic Catapult". Still it's huge, the original SC 2 carrier was just so frustrating to use. On December 07 2012 10:07 Markwerf wrote:
The problem with the carrier was never this lack of micro capability so well brought to attention by Nony. It's the fact the carrier is countered by air units.. There will never be any interesting carrier micro in sc2 because it's carrier vs viking, carrier vs corruptor or carrier vs tempest Could very well be. Time will tell. Corruptors are like devourers that cost 100m / 50g less and shoot twice as fast.
Imagine Corruptors having to be morphed out of Mutas ...
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Carrier micro has.. only sent a message via the internet. This is a good, but small step towards actual carrier micro.
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Does noone think hots will increase in viability just because of the addition of tempests?
before, carriers fared well against vikings, however vikings could snipe a carrier all of them would launch , and then theyd kill a viking, vikings backed off, 1 for 1.
Now its much more dangerous for vikings to enter the protoss air. especially with vortex, storm, and archon support.
I personally think carrier / tempest will be quite strong, if not even too strong.
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this is not carrier micro, this is crap, they made a useless thing and now everybody is happy? ... that's not the carrier micro
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On December 07 2012 14:49 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 09:48 Belisarius wrote:On December 07 2012 09:21 RavenLoud wrote:On December 07 2012 05:07 urashimakt wrote:On December 07 2012 02:49 RavenLoud wrote:
Wait, if the unit you attack first dies while you're in leash range, does the interceptors return to the carrier or do they auto-target something else?
(Assuming that you didn't have time to issue another attack command, e.g. you killed a marine instantaneously.) If you do not issue a new attack target to the carrier within leash range then the interceptors will dutifully return to the carrier. Micro is required. If there is a target within launch range, however, that will be auto-acquired. Darn, so basically it's impossible to use this micro against mid-low hp units once you get graviton catapult and a critical mass of carriers because you kill your first target way to fast to possibly give another attack command in time. It'll only be useful in small numbers of carriers that allow you the time to target another enemy unit before the first one dies. I'm fairly sure that you can re-target after the unit has died, provided you do so before the returning interceptors actually reach their carrier. Ah awesome, thanks for the info. I'd like to see carrier armor being brought back to 4, especially if the merging of vehicle and air upgrades go through. Still, great change.
I mentioned carrier armor being buffed to a friend and got shot down so hard about how OP it would be.
Was told I just want an a-move unit that wins games.
No what we have is a a-move unit that is bad.
They need more survivability and they need a build time decrease.
Improved leash range micro is a start but there are other things they can do to make the carrier a unit that requires micro and will be good in the right hands.
I don't see how this kind of buff is out of line when mech/air upgrades get combined and ultras are getting a flat 35 damage.
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On December 07 2012 20:24 Ooshmagoosh wrote:
They also need to bring back the 4 armor, I dunno why they got rid of that =/
Because of guardian shield perhaps, that would make an effective armor of 6 against anything that can shoot it. I don't think it would be a problem in an actual game, but it may have been a concern back in the alpha days.
Just speculating here.
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Sweet! I hope this makes carrier viable again ^.^
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The thread title and reddit title are being super misleading.. No this is no way near carrier micro, it's only one step closer.
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Nothing new an that front anymore? I tested it myself, you can't switch targets when a unit dies, so this is pretty useless ATM. Sorry for getting this thread back up, but I feel like this needs some attention, or they won't fix it, till release... They probably don't even realize it's not done properly yet...
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Well I think this should be addressed as well since skytoss seems to be more viable in HotS.
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EPT
