Remember Liquid`Tyler's exposé on why the carrier has lost it's luster? If you don't, you can brush up on it here.
Tyler pointed out three differences between the carrier then and now in order of impact on gameplay:
The new carrier cannot perform a target switch between launch range and leash range (vitally important)
The new interceptors do not remain deployed after a stop-move command (launch speed upgrade makes it less of a big deal)
Players can't accidentally attack their own interceptors (also claimed this was not a big deal)
This is an example of the Brood War target switching from leash range.
This is an example of a Wings of Liberty carrier failing to switch targets from leash range.
And this is an example of a Heart of the Swarm Carrier successfully switching targets from leash range due to an undocumented change in the 2.0.2 (or possibly earlier) beta patch:
Why you no work Youtube. I'm pretty interested to see this undocumented change.
Edit:
Ok this is pretty cool. I haven't been able to test it myself but judging for the posts later on in the thread the leashing range is there, BUT carriers do not launch all interceptors at once. Pretty cool change, its about time the carrier was given some ability to be microed and actually show the difference the art of control can make. Now Protoss just need to find a way to get to 6-10 gas, get fleet beacon and stall time for carriers to make after their gateway/robo/whatever non-stargate army dies. LOL gl.
On December 06 2012 19:14 althaz wrote: This totally feels like an epic troll, but I am praying that is turns out to be true. Anybody got access to the Beta and can confirm?
On December 06 2012 19:14 althaz wrote: This totally feels like an epic troll, but I am praying that is turns out to be true. Anybody got access to the Beta and can confirm?
I have access to the beta. I've been on TL.net for over 3 years without trolling, I've created a mod for a charity event, and I love you.
You can trust me. The video's got about 10 minutes on it.
On December 06 2012 19:14 althaz wrote: This totally feels like an epic troll, but I am praying that is turns out to be true. Anybody got access to the Beta and can confirm?
The Beta is down right now.
I actually used the map editor for this.
On December 06 2012 19:16 YyapSsap wrote: Can I spread the word in the beta forums? *if true*
On December 06 2012 19:14 althaz wrote: This totally feels like an epic troll, but I am praying that is turns out to be true. Anybody got access to the Beta and can confirm?
I have access to the beta. I've been on TL.net for over 3 years without trolling, I've created a mod for a charity event, and I love you.
You can trust me. The video's got about 10 minutes on it.
Why didn't blizz mention this? Their patch would have had twice the positive press it already has.
On December 06 2012 19:14 althaz wrote: This totally feels like an epic troll, but I am praying that is turns out to be true. Anybody got access to the Beta and can confirm?
I have access to the beta. I've been on TL.net for over 3 years without trolling, I've created a mod for a charity event, and I love you.
You can trust me. The video's got about 10 minutes on it.
Why didn't blizz mention this? Their patch would have had twice the positive press it already has.
On December 06 2012 19:14 althaz wrote: This totally feels like an epic troll, but I am praying that is turns out to be true. Anybody got access to the Beta and can confirm?
I have access to the beta. I've been on TL.net for over 3 years without trolling, I've created a mod for a charity event, and I love you.
You can trust me. The video's got about 10 minutes on it.
Why didn't blizz mention this? Their patch would have had twice the positive press it already has.
On December 06 2012 19:18 Semtext wrote: Beta is down, Update on the situation is scheduled for 12:00 PST (6th of December, 2012) . Whenever the hell that is. In 4 hours and 20 Minutes?
On December 06 2012 19:14 althaz wrote: This totally feels like an epic troll, but I am praying that is turns out to be true. Anybody got access to the Beta and can confirm?
I have access to the beta. I've been on TL.net for over 3 years without trolling, I've created a mod for a charity event, and I love you.
You can trust me. The video's got about 10 minutes on it.
Why didn't blizz mention this? Their patch would have had twice the positive press it already has.
Maybe Muta stacking is possible too?
I think I saw Reaver on Sterling's stream.. :D
Those two changes, along with this would truly amount to a Christmas miracle, lol.
But god damn, I'm really really happy blizzard managed to bring back even one of the mechanics that made the original starcraft what it was. We should all get together to make the dev team a card or something.
Shouldn't they let us select the interceptors, i understand it will be difficult to select ground units if theres a million interceptors over them, but it would be awesome to be able to move a bunch of them in a single direction in order to dodge possible missile attacks, i.e. the new projectile fungal growth, storm(not really a missile but move interceptors out of the way).
On December 06 2012 19:14 althaz wrote: This totally feels like an epic troll, but I am praying that is turns out to be true. Anybody got access to the Beta and can confirm?
I have access to the beta. I've been on TL.net for over 3 years without trolling, I've created a mod for a charity event, and I love you.
You can trust me. The video's got about 10 minutes on it.
Why didn't blizz mention this? Their patch would have had twice the positive press it already has.
Exactly. Maybe they think it's too complicated to put it in words in the patch notes :D So only the people that care (TL) will figure out.
While its great that they added the change to the leash mechanics, its unclear from the video as to whether they added the deployed movement from BW which Nony talked about.
On December 06 2012 19:14 althaz wrote: This totally feels like an epic troll, but I am praying that is turns out to be true. Anybody got access to the Beta and can confirm?
I have access to the beta. I've been on TL.net for over 3 years without trolling, I've created a mod for a charity event, and I love you.
You can trust me. The video's got about 10 minutes on it.
Why didn't blizz mention this? Their patch would have had twice the positive press it already has.
Exactly. Maybe they think it's too complicated to put it in words in the patch notes :D So only the people that care (TL) will figure out.
I like to think there's one rogue programmer working at Blizzard who masked new ammo launch code as code for the new collapsible rocks.
On December 06 2012 19:51 n00b1n8R wrote: While its great that they added the change to the leash mechanics, its unclear from the video as to whether they added the deployed movement from BW which Nony talked about.
Can anybody confirm whether they did?
Stop-moving returns the interceptors to the carrier. The shown change is the only one I found after attempting all of Nony's stunts.
On December 06 2012 19:43 Callynn wrote: Now remove the boring tempest and replace it with something cool? They will probably do that in LotV ;P
I actually kinda like the possible relationship between the Carrier and the Tempest.
With the Tempest, you get a long-range (range 15) siege flier that is easier to use but has lower DPS.
With the Carrier, you get a sorta long-range (Interceptor release range 8, leash range 14) siege flier that is harder to use but has higher DPS.
A skilled player can possibly make Carriers do wonders, but at the cost of babysitting the Carriers to make maximum use of their leash-range target-switching. Meanwhile, a Tempest doesn't require as much babysitting as long as it's positioned correctly, but at the cost of some DPS.
I wonder how all theorycrafting will turn out in the live game, however.
I don't think there's a need for instant full interceptor launch. First because it looks more like a bug than anything else. Second because it makes an upgrade relevant.
On December 06 2012 19:51 n00b1n8R wrote: While its great that they added the change to the leash mechanics, its unclear from the video as to whether they added the deployed movement from BW which Nony talked about.
Can anybody confirm whether they did?
I love the carrier change that was carried out by blizzard, to allow more micro. However, "deploying interceptors with stop command" is in my eyes nothing less than a bug or at the very least, extremely confusing and counter intuitive; if it was possible to have them out at all times, why not simply have them always out? It makes no sense to add a bug-exploit that doesn't even do much, after the quick-lauch upgrade.
I have a really hard time believing this is really going to change anything. While it's nice that it's possible to micro carriers now to some degree now rather than just a-moving, like pheonix vs. muta (atleast pre patch); sure you can spend all the time in the world microing your pheonix against muta, it's still not a good idea just because you can do it.
There were numerous more differences than just the micro why carriers were good against terran in bw, and most of those reasons are absent in sc2.
It does give me hope at least that perhaps DB and kim might be willing to make some other necessary changes though, not that much hope though.
On December 06 2012 21:28 TheLight wrote: Could someone explain to me how this will increase the utility of the carrier in a real game?
You can change targets and the carriers won't go to range 8. You can launch first volley and move up to 12 range and force change target there. Like this you can siege things a lot easier with carriers.
On December 06 2012 21:28 TheLight wrote: Could someone explain to me how this will increase the utility of the carrier in a real game?
Well you could say that Blizzard effectively buffed Carriers to range 12.
How's that sound, not too shabby huh?
Technically, the leash range is 14 according to Liquipedia, so maybe some gifted micro can extend that effective range even further to the limits of the leash range.
In comparison, the Tempest currently has range 15, so maybe Carrier micro can be an alternative to Tempest use.
On December 06 2012 21:28 TheLight wrote: Could someone explain to me how this will increase the utility of the carrier in a real game?
Well you could say that Blizzard effectively buffed Carriers to range 12.
How's that sound, not too shabby huh?
Technically, the leash range is 14 according to Liquipedia, so maybe some gifted micro can extend that effective range even further to the limits of the leash range.
In comparison, the Tempest currently has range 15, so maybe Carrier micro can be an alternative to Tempest use.
Doesnt that mean that your disengage at the same time when your going to range 14? I mean the interceptors launch their last attacks but their return to carrier of that range. At least thats what i remember from BW (watched a LOT, silver stork carry micro<3)
I think they are still deciding whether to do this or not. But probably not unfortunately, because it would take over the tempest's role. I think the carrier will just sit at the "expensive but extremely powerful and food efficient -- build lots of me if you're rich!"
On December 06 2012 19:14 althaz wrote: This totally feels like an epic troll, but I am praying that is turns out to be true. Anybody got access to the Beta and can confirm?
I have access to the beta. I've been on TL.net for over 3 years without trolling, I've created a mod for a charity event, and I love you.
You can trust me. The video's got about 10 minutes on it.
Why didn't blizz mention this? Their patch would have had twice the positive press it already has.
Because they probably implemented this weeks ago and shoved into the "big sledgehammer patch" box without adding the documentation to the proper file. Half the changed data is missing from the patch notes (like the tiny detail that the Thor with its single-target-AA attack shoots faster than the regular AoE attack).
On December 06 2012 19:14 althaz wrote: This totally feels like an epic troll, but I am praying that is turns out to be true. Anybody got access to the Beta and can confirm?
I have access to the beta. I've been on TL.net for over 3 years without trolling, I've created a mod for a charity event, and I love you.
You can trust me. The video's got about 10 minutes on it.
Why didn't blizz mention this? Their patch would have had twice the positive press it already has.
Because they probably implemented this weeks ago and shoved into the "big sledgehammer patch" box without adding the documentation to the proper file.
On December 06 2012 22:42 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I think they are still deciding whether to do this or not. But probably not unfortunately, because it would take over the tempest's role. I think the carrier will just sit at the "expensive but extremely powerful and food efficient -- build lots of me if you're rich!"
Nah, I think what Blizzard have decided is to give each race two main threads they can go down, so with Terran it's
T Bio T Mech
Z Melee Z Ranged
P Ground P Air
It wouldn't surprise me if they fold Air upgrades for zerg into the ranged upgrades solely to buff a roach/hydra/muta composition.
There are obvious overlaps (particularly in TvZ) but that strikes me as the direction they're going atm.
On December 06 2012 19:14 althaz wrote: This totally feels like an epic troll, but I am praying that is turns out to be true. Anybody got access to the Beta and can confirm?
I have access to the beta. I've been on TL.net for over 3 years without trolling, I've created a mod for a charity event, and I love you.
You can trust me. The video's got about 10 minutes on it.
Why didn't blizz mention this? Their patch would have had twice the positive press it already has.
Maybe Muta stacking is possible too?
I think I saw Reaver on Sterling's stream.. :D
Those two changes, along with this would truly amount to a Christmas miracle, lol.
But god damn, I'm really really happy blizzard managed to bring back even one of the mechanics that made the original starcraft what it was. We should all get together to make the dev team a card or something.
They have the Reaver now? Or should I just assume they dont?
I never thought it would actually be implemented.. This is amazing!
Thanks so much for making that video, NonY! You might have singlehandedly changed how the protoss match-ups will play out in HotS. Considering this, even though it existed before, let's call it Tyler-micro when ever it happens, as a way to credit the change to him (much like what artosis pylon derived from) :D
This is really fantastic! I don't understand why they kept us in the dark about it. It's easily one of the most requested changes by Protoss players.... that's really odd.
Neat. Glad they put this in. Can't wait to learn how to use it effectively. Now if they'd just reduce the damn build time a bit...
Is there any confirmation on whether interceptors stay out of the carrier now when the unit continues moving similar to BW? I understand the graviton catapult makes that less useful in sc2 but it'd still be nice to have.
Wait, if the unit you attack first dies while you're in leash range, does the interceptors return to the carrier or do they auto-target something else?
(Assuming that you didn't have time to issue another attack command, e.g. you killed a marine instantaneously.)
On December 06 2012 19:43 Callynn wrote: Now remove the boring tempest and replace it with something cool? They will probably do that in LotV ;P
I actually kinda like the possible relationship between the Carrier and the Tempest.
With the Tempest, you get a long-range (range 15) siege flier that is easier to use but has lower DPS.
With the Carrier, you get a sorta long-range (Interceptor release range 8, leash range 14) siege flier that is harder to use but has higher DPS.
A skilled player can possibly make Carriers do wonders, but at the cost of babysitting the Carriers to make maximum use of their leash-range target-switching. Meanwhile, a Tempest doesn't require as much babysitting as long as it's positioned correctly, but at the cost of some DPS.
I wonder how all theorycrafting will turn out in the live game, however.
There's also the fact that Intercepters can be shot by GtA, while Tempests can't. And Intercepters cost money to build.
awwww goodbye hard to micro carrier. But hello easy to use carrier that will be used by people ... maybe. Had my fun share in Wings with them, so I don't mind.
like there was significant micro with carriers in Wol before lol. I used them quiet a bit in Wol and other than shift queing targets there isnt much micro you can do before fungal roots so much of your army you just keep the carriers above/roots the carrier itself.
Maybe i can now nibble away at bases/ infestor count with them; needs some testing.
On December 06 2012 19:14 althaz wrote: This totally feels like an epic troll, but I am praying that is turns out to be true. Anybody got access to the Beta and can confirm?
I have access to the beta. I've been on TL.net for over 3 years without trolling, I've created a mod for a charity event, and I love you.
You can trust me. The video's got about 10 minutes on it.
Why didn't blizz mention this? Their patch would have had twice the positive press it already has.
Because they probably implemented this weeks ago and shoved into the "big sledgehammer patch" box without adding the documentation to the proper file. Half the changed data is missing from the patch notes (like the tiny detail that the Thor with its single-target-AA attack shoots faster than the regular AoE attack).
Makes sense... are you or anyone else compiling these undocumented changes?
On December 07 2012 03:11 FeyFey wrote: awwww goodbye hard to micro carrier. But hello easy to use carrier that will be used by people ... maybe. Had my fun share in Wings with them, so I don't mind.
Haha so you`re a WoL elitist? "Damn Hots noobs, in WoL Carriers used to be crap and they were impossible to micro, so only pros on FFA maps could use them. Now look at you idiots, crushing me with your "micro" usage and leashing, pathethic.". It wasnt hard in WoL, it was unmicroable.
On December 07 2012 02:49 RavenLoud wrote: Wait, if the unit you attack first dies while you're in leash range, does the interceptors return to the carrier or do they auto-target something else?
(Assuming that you didn't have time to issue another attack command, e.g. you killed a marine instantaneously.)
As long as the interceptors are still outside of the carrier, they can receive new attack commands from leash range. Once they touch the carrier, they need to be redeployed from launch range.
On December 07 2012 03:11 FeyFey wrote: awwww goodbye hard to micro carrier. But hello easy to use carrier that will be used by people ... maybe. Had my fun share in Wings with them, so I don't mind.
The reality is that in Wings of Liberty the carrier behaved the same no matter who used them. They weren't hard to micro. They could not be microed. Now, if you micro, they are a bit better.
On December 07 2012 04:08 Toads wrote: Is there a link for the undocumented change in the 2.0.2 beta patch video on youtube ?
Do you mean the video I uploaded? This is the only undocumented change I discovered.
On December 07 2012 03:52 JoshSuth wrote: 2 month old stealth change, posted forever go. x.x
VIDEO SNIPPED
The video mentions (and demonstrates) "carriers now being able to attack while moving", which is a feature the carrier has always had even since the Wings of Liberty beta. It could be that the HotS beta has had leashed target switching since the patch that you documented, but I only discovered it last night and I've found no record of it being mentioned on YouTube, reddit, TL.net, or the official SC2 forums.
Did Blizzard give you any notes on a carrier change? It could be they meant it was leash target switching but in communicating it to you the message was jumbled.
On December 07 2012 02:49 RavenLoud wrote: Wait, if the unit you attack first dies while you're in leash range, does the interceptors return to the carrier or do they auto-target something else?
(Assuming that you didn't have time to issue another attack command, e.g. you killed a marine instantaneously.)
As long as the interceptors are still outside of the carrier, they can receive new attack commands from leash range. Once they touch the carrier, they need to be redeployed from launch range.
On December 07 2012 03:11 FeyFey wrote: awwww goodbye hard to micro carrier. But hello easy to use carrier that will be used by people ... maybe. Had my fun share in Wings with them, so I don't mind.
The reality is that in Wings of Liberty the carrier behaved the same no matter who used them. They weren't hard to micro. They could not be microed. Now, if you micro, they are a bit better.
On December 07 2012 02:49 RavenLoud wrote: Wait, if the unit you attack first dies while you're in leash range, does the interceptors return to the carrier or do they auto-target something else?
(Assuming that you didn't have time to issue another attack command, e.g. you killed a marine instantaneously.)
If you do not issue a new attack target to the carrier within leash range then the interceptors will dutifully return to the carrier. Micro is required.
If there is a target within launch range, however, that will be auto-acquired.
Wow, this is a really cool change. It makes carriers harder to use and more viable at the same time. Thanks for bringing this to our attention Nony, this is a wonderful addition to the game.
On December 07 2012 03:11 FeyFey wrote: awwww goodbye hard to micro carrier. But hello easy to use carrier that will be used by people ... maybe. Had my fun share in Wings with them, so I don't mind.
Haha so you`re a WoL elitist? "Damn Hots noobs, in WoL Carriers used to be crap and they were impossible to micro, so only pros on FFA maps could use them. Now look at you idiots, crushing me with your "micro" usage and leashing, pathethic.". It wasnt hard in WoL, it was unmicroable.
The scary thing is that he probably believes that. This is why blizzard can't listen to the forum threads...there will always be people like this
Now terran just needs goliaths, or something similar.
You know, Blizzard, making the Thor switch between multi-target mode and single-target mode makes you look like you are trying to polish a turd. You know a really simple way to either do more damage to one target, or hit multiple targets? HAVE MULTIPLE UNITS. Three goliaths don't need splash damage- they can hit three mutas anyway. And they can focus fire on a single target and do increased damage.
Thors are an incredibly poorly designed unit, always have been. "Let the art lead" because giant mechs are cool? Seriously?
Holy shit they actually added the micro back??? what the fuck
That's surprising... ACTUALLY ITS NOT. I totally forgot about the tempest nerf, no more massive damage vs ground, meaning it doesn't own thors anymore. So now Tempest is solution to colossi/BL and capital ships in the air, and Carrier is good against mech and has its own uses!
NICE!!!
I doubted they would change the carrier back to this or even keep it in the game, because its role overlapped with the previous tempest, except it just has a little less range than tempest.
Damn blizzard, so fucking impressed as always with their patches. But now more than ever
Although it goes without saying that I have a massive erection, I don't know if this will be enough in practice.
Smart-fire still means that incerceptors will melt to any form of AA (especially marines), they can still be fungaled, and the carrier itself is still incredibly squishy versus both corruptors and vikings.
I'm excited that they made the change, but I'm pretty sure the carrier is still en route.
On December 07 2012 08:52 ledarsi wrote: Now terran just needs goliaths, or something similar.
You know, Blizzard, making the Thor switch between multi-target mode and single-target mode makes you look like you are trying to polish a turd. You know a really simple way to either do more damage to one target, or hit multiple targets? HAVE MULTIPLE UNITS. Three goliaths don't need splash damage- they can hit three mutas anyway. And they can focus fire on a single target and do increased damage.
Thors are an incredibly poorly designed unit, always have been. "Let the art lead" because giant mechs are cool? Seriously?
They have vikings already. With the micro back for the carrier, there will be similar micro with the Viking (except perhaps a little less frustrating now, since it can fly) in the way that you must choose whether to pursue the carriers or back up, and trying to mess up the carrier micro etc.
Also... a thor can do much more damage if they clump up a lot. So it's not quite the same. And did you forget thors have great DPS vs ground?
And you have vikings already. So the goliath role for mech was split up into viking and thor, which is nice because there is more specialization, while bio compositions can use thors and vikings too, offering more strategy in picking which units to use than simply using only marines (and the occasional valkyries) or only goliaths (and sometimes wraiths).
On December 07 2012 08:52 ledarsi wrote: Now terran just needs goliaths, or something similar.
You know, Blizzard, making the Thor switch between multi-target mode and single-target mode makes you look like you are trying to polish a turd. You know a really simple way to either do more damage to one target, or hit multiple targets? HAVE MULTIPLE UNITS. Three goliaths don't need splash damage- they can hit three mutas anyway. And they can focus fire on a single target and do increased damage.
Thors are an incredibly poorly designed unit, always have been. "Let the art lead" because giant mechs are cool? Seriously?
You know, Thors are more than just anti-air. They do strong single-target damage at a healthy range. They have lots of Hp, so that they can soak damage. And their large size means that AoE doesn't hurt them nearly as much.
The only reason they weren't viable in TvP before now was that they had energy (for a worthless ability) and thus were susceptible to Feedback. That's gone now.
Going back to the Goliath would be a mistake at this point; you'd be throwing away a worthwhile unit for something easily killed and who's GtG attack is hardly impressive. In short, you'd be using a one-dimensional unit that you only build in response to someone going air.
Regardless of whether there is a Viking in the game, the Thor would be better designed to be replaced with a 2 supply version of itself, with less HP and damage. If you want to split the Goliath into two units, an anti-air one and an anti-ground one, then you should have a 2 supply Viking (in the game) and a 2 supply ground mech from the factory. It can be good against ground, and less strong against air than the Viking, that would be acceptable. Heck, make it an anti-light anti-air attack, similar to the thor's. But the huge mech thing is boring, leads to deathballs, and limits terran's options for producing them and distributing them around the map.
On December 07 2012 09:06 ledarsi wrote: Regardless of whether there is a Viking in the game, the Thor would be better designed to be replaced with a 2 supply version of itself, with less HP and damage. If you want to split the Goliath into two units, an anti-air one and an anti-ground one, then you should have a 2 supply Viking (in the game) and a 2 supply ground mech from the factory. It can be good against ground, and less strong against air than the Viking, that would be acceptable. Heck, make it an anti-light anti-air attack, similar to the thor's. But the huge mech thing is boring, leads to deathballs, and limits terran's options for producing them and distributing them around the map.
Which forces the Terran to have to diversify their economy instead of just building everything from the Factory. And since factory and ship upgrades all work the same now... I don't see the problem with it. If you're serious about anti-air, bring out your Vikings. If you need just some anti-air, you have your Thors.
On December 07 2012 02:49 RavenLoud wrote: Wait, if the unit you attack first dies while you're in leash range, does the interceptors return to the carrier or do they auto-target something else?
(Assuming that you didn't have time to issue another attack command, e.g. you killed a marine instantaneously.)
If you do not issue a new attack target to the carrier within leash range then the interceptors will dutifully return to the carrier. Micro is required.
If there is a target within launch range, however, that will be auto-acquired.
Darn, so basically it's impossible to use this micro against mid-low hp units once you get graviton catapult and a critical mass of carriers because you kill your first target way to fast to possibly give another attack command in time.
It'll only be useful in small numbers of carriers that allow you the time to target another enemy unit before the first one dies.
On December 07 2012 02:49 RavenLoud wrote: Wait, if the unit you attack first dies while you're in leash range, does the interceptors return to the carrier or do they auto-target something else?
(Assuming that you didn't have time to issue another attack command, e.g. you killed a marine instantaneously.)
If you do not issue a new attack target to the carrier within leash range then the interceptors will dutifully return to the carrier. Micro is required.
If there is a target within launch range, however, that will be auto-acquired.
Darn, so basically it's impossible to use this micro against mid-low hp units once you get graviton catapult and a critical mass of carriers because you kill your first target way to fast to possibly give another attack command in time.
It'll only be useful in small numbers of carriers that allow you the time to target another enemy unit before the first one dies.
I'm fairly sure that you can re-target after the unit has died, provided you do so before the returning interceptors actually reach their carrier.
unfortunately this change is almost completely irrelevant so far since carriers are still complete trash in the current game: - zerg counter they very hard with corruptors, no micro saves you from that. - protoss has the tempest now, can't do cute micro tricks against that. It's not even good enough against stlakers anyway to even have a chance even if you surprise your opponent - terran did have some big weaknesses to the carrier if they went mech but with the thor and upgrade buff that is hardly true anymore, 1/0 or 2/0 carriers suck really hard against 3/3 vikings.
The problem with the carrier was never this lack of micro capability so well brought to attention by Nony. It's the fact the carrier is countered by air units.. There will never be any interesting carrier micro in sc2 because it's carrier vs viking, carrier vs corruptor or carrier vs tempest There were some options to create interesting carrier play in hots, for example if they had given terran a goliath unit or if they had buffed the carrier for PvP and made the stalker the only counter. IF that had happened then this carrier micro stuff would be cool and something to rejoice about, now it's practically irrelevant...
On December 07 2012 10:07 Markwerf wrote: unfortunately this change is almost completely irrelevant so far since carriers are still complete trash in the current game: - zerg counter they very hard with corruptors, no micro saves you from that. - protoss has the tempest now, can't do cute micro tricks against that. It's not even good enough against stlakers anyway to even have a chance even if you surprise your opponent - terran did have some big weaknesses to the carrier if they went mech but with the thor and upgrade buff that is hardly true anymore, 1/0 or 2/0 carriers suck really hard against 3/3 vikings.
The problem with the carrier was never this lack of micro capability so well brought to attention by Nony. It's the fact the carrier is countered by air units.. There will never be any interesting carrier micro in sc2 because it's carrier vs viking, carrier vs corruptor or carrier vs tempest There were some options to create interesting carrier play in hots, for example if they had given terran a goliath unit or if they had buffed the carrier for PvP and made the stalker the only counter. IF that had happened then this carrier micro stuff would be cool and something to rejoice about, now it's practically irrelevant...
I don't know, the Carrier's problem was never its base stats.
A microable Carrier could at least be useful mixing into balanced compositions if it was done right. It was very all-or-nothing in WoL, which made it a lot more hard-counterable.
On December 06 2012 19:18 Crawdad wrote: I have heard this from other sources, so it might be legit.
Would be typical of Blizz not to document it, LOL.
Lol its probably in bug fixes.
I would laugh so hard if they put a note like 'forgot to include any ability to micro the unit' beside it. Dustin 'Rock' Browder has the capacity for such self-deprecating humour I hope he rises to it.
Does this include the micro trick where you move carriers so the interceptors don't come inside and when you hit attack, all interceptors near-instantaneously pop out again?
On December 07 2012 14:03 Don.681 wrote: Does this include the micro trick where you move carriers so the interceptors don't come inside and when you hit attack, all interceptors near-instantaneously pop out again?
Unfortunately, no. While the change in this patch was a step in the right direction, carrier micro won't be complete until they implement all of NonY's suggestions. As of right now, the moment the interceptors start to return to the carrier, you won't be able to deploy them again unless you're within 8 range of the target - and they don't deploy instantaneously either.
On December 07 2012 02:49 RavenLoud wrote: Wait, if the unit you attack first dies while you're in leash range, does the interceptors return to the carrier or do they auto-target something else?
(Assuming that you didn't have time to issue another attack command, e.g. you killed a marine instantaneously.)
If you do not issue a new attack target to the carrier within leash range then the interceptors will dutifully return to the carrier. Micro is required.
If there is a target within launch range, however, that will be auto-acquired.
Darn, so basically it's impossible to use this micro against mid-low hp units once you get graviton catapult and a critical mass of carriers because you kill your first target way to fast to possibly give another attack command in time.
It'll only be useful in small numbers of carriers that allow you the time to target another enemy unit before the first one dies.
I'm fairly sure that you can re-target after the unit has died, provided you do so before the returning interceptors actually reach their carrier.
Ah awesome, thanks for the info.
I'd like to see carrier armor being brought back to 4, especially if the merging of vehicle and air upgrades go through. Still, great change.
On December 07 2012 08:52 ledarsi wrote: Now terran just needs goliaths, or something similar.
You know, Blizzard, making the Thor switch between multi-target mode and single-target mode makes you look like you are trying to polish a turd. You know a really simple way to either do more damage to one target, or hit multiple targets? HAVE MULTIPLE UNITS. Three goliaths don't need splash damage- they can hit three mutas anyway. And they can focus fire on a single target and do increased damage.
Thors are an incredibly poorly designed unit, always have been. "Let the art lead" because giant mechs are cool? Seriously?
They have vikings already. With the micro back for the carrier, there will be similar micro with the Viking (except perhaps a little less frustrating now, since it can fly) in the way that you must choose whether to pursue the carriers or back up, and trying to mess up the carrier micro etc.
Also... a thor can do much more damage if they clump up a lot. So it's not quite the same. And did you forget thors have great DPS vs ground?
And you have vikings already. So the goliath role for mech was split up into viking and thor, which is nice because there is more specialization, while bio compositions can use thors and vikings too, offering more strategy in picking which units to use than simply using only marines (and the occasional valkyries) or only goliaths (and sometimes wraiths).
Plus, combined Armory upgrades essentially means all Terran air units are now part of the Mech tech path, and the Viking's anti-air attack has a huge range advantage over the Goliath while doing roughly the same amount of damage. The Viking's ground attack has the same DPS as a Goliath, plus it looks like one to boot, too. Not starting with 1 armor is a detriment, though.
On December 07 2012 08:52 ledarsi wrote: Now terran just needs goliaths, or something similar.
You know, Blizzard, making the Thor switch between multi-target mode and single-target mode makes you look like you are trying to polish a turd. You know a really simple way to either do more damage to one target, or hit multiple targets? HAVE MULTIPLE UNITS. Three goliaths don't need splash damage- they can hit three mutas anyway. And they can focus fire on a single target and do increased damage.
Thors are an incredibly poorly designed unit, always have been. "Let the art lead" because giant mechs are cool? Seriously?
They have vikings already. With the micro back for the carrier, there will be similar micro with the Viking (except perhaps a little less frustrating now, since it can fly) in the way that you must choose whether to pursue the carriers or back up, and trying to mess up the carrier micro etc.
Also... a thor can do much more damage if they clump up a lot. So it's not quite the same. And did you forget thors have great DPS vs ground?
And you have vikings already. So the goliath role for mech was split up into viking and thor, which is nice because there is more specialization, while bio compositions can use thors and vikings too, offering more strategy in picking which units to use than simply using only marines (and the occasional valkyries) or only goliaths (and sometimes wraiths).
Plus, combined Armory upgrades essentially means all Terran air units are now part of the Mech tech path, and the Viking's anti-air attack has a huge range advantage over the Goliath while doing roughly the same amount of damage. The Viking's ground attack has the same DPS as a Goliath, plus it looks like one to boot, too. Not starting with 1 armor is a detriment, though.
Hopefully they find a way. I was amazed at how little balancing they did to the Carrier throughout WoL, but this new patch has shown a willingness to try things so perhaps they will make it viable over time, even if it isn't immediately tearing things up
On December 07 2012 14:21 flyingnimbus wrote: Unfortunately, no. While the change in this patch was a step in the right direction, carrier micro won't be complete until they implement all of NonY's suggestions. As of right now, the moment the interceptors start to return to the carrier, you won't be able to deploy them again unless you're within 8 range of the target - and they don't deploy instantaneously either.
Agree. Maybe Blizzard is scared to remove "Gravitic Catapult". Still it's huge, the original SC 2 carrier was just so frustrating to use.
On December 07 2012 10:07 Markwerf wrote: The problem with the carrier was never this lack of micro capability so well brought to attention by Nony. It's the fact the carrier is countered by air units.. There will never be any interesting carrier micro in sc2 because it's carrier vs viking, carrier vs corruptor or carrier vs tempest
On December 07 2012 14:21 flyingnimbus wrote: Unfortunately, no. While the change in this patch was a step in the right direction, carrier micro won't be complete until they implement all of NonY's suggestions. As of right now, the moment the interceptors start to return to the carrier, you won't be able to deploy them again unless you're within 8 range of the target - and they don't deploy instantaneously either.
Agree. Maybe Blizzard is scared to remove "Gravitic Catapult". Still it's huge, the original SC 2 carrier was just so frustrating to use.
On December 07 2012 10:07 Markwerf wrote: The problem with the carrier was never this lack of micro capability so well brought to attention by Nony. It's the fact the carrier is countered by air units.. There will never be any interesting carrier micro in sc2 because it's carrier vs viking, carrier vs corruptor or carrier vs tempest
Could very well be. Time will tell.
Corruptors are like devourers that cost 100m / 50g less and shoot twice as fast.
They also need to bring back the 4 armor, I dunno why they got rid of that =/
On December 07 2012 14:21 flyingnimbus wrote: Unfortunately, no. While the change in this patch was a step in the right direction, carrier micro won't be complete until they implement all of NonY's suggestions. As of right now, the moment the interceptors start to return to the carrier, you won't be able to deploy them again unless you're within 8 range of the target - and they don't deploy instantaneously either.
Agree. Maybe Blizzard is scared to remove "Gravitic Catapult". Still it's huge, the original SC 2 carrier was just so frustrating to use.
On December 07 2012 10:07 Markwerf wrote: The problem with the carrier was never this lack of micro capability so well brought to attention by Nony. It's the fact the carrier is countered by air units.. There will never be any interesting carrier micro in sc2 because it's carrier vs viking, carrier vs corruptor or carrier vs tempest
Could very well be. Time will tell.
Corruptors are like devourers that cost 100m / 50g less and shoot twice as fast.
They also need to bring back the 4 armor, I dunno why they got rid of that =/
crazy idea on how to balance corruptors: make corruption energy-based and make it cost 100 energy, give corruptors 400 energy max
then watch them get raped by feedback if you dont spend your energy
I love this. You don't even need interceptor follow, honestly. It is a little confusing and looks weird. But "hey, attack THAT now" is about as intuitive as it gets.
On December 07 2012 14:21 flyingnimbus wrote: Unfortunately, no. While the change in this patch was a step in the right direction, carrier micro won't be complete until they implement all of NonY's suggestions. As of right now, the moment the interceptors start to return to the carrier, you won't be able to deploy them again unless you're within 8 range of the target - and they don't deploy instantaneously either.
Agree. Maybe Blizzard is scared to remove "Gravitic Catapult". Still it's huge, the original SC 2 carrier was just so frustrating to use.
On December 07 2012 10:07 Markwerf wrote: The problem with the carrier was never this lack of micro capability so well brought to attention by Nony. It's the fact the carrier is countered by air units.. There will never be any interesting carrier micro in sc2 because it's carrier vs viking, carrier vs corruptor or carrier vs tempest
Could very well be. Time will tell.
Corruptors are like devourers that cost 100m / 50g less and shoot twice as fast.
Imagine Corruptors having to be morphed out of Mutas ...
Does noone think hots will increase in viability just because of the addition of tempests?
before, carriers fared well against vikings, however vikings could snipe a carrier all of them would launch , and then theyd kill a viking, vikings backed off, 1 for 1. Now its much more dangerous for vikings to enter the protoss air. especially with vortex, storm, and archon support.
I personally think carrier / tempest will be quite strong, if not even too strong.
On December 07 2012 02:49 RavenLoud wrote: Wait, if the unit you attack first dies while you're in leash range, does the interceptors return to the carrier or do they auto-target something else?
(Assuming that you didn't have time to issue another attack command, e.g. you killed a marine instantaneously.)
If you do not issue a new attack target to the carrier within leash range then the interceptors will dutifully return to the carrier. Micro is required.
If there is a target within launch range, however, that will be auto-acquired.
Darn, so basically it's impossible to use this micro against mid-low hp units once you get graviton catapult and a critical mass of carriers because you kill your first target way to fast to possibly give another attack command in time.
It'll only be useful in small numbers of carriers that allow you the time to target another enemy unit before the first one dies.
I'm fairly sure that you can re-target after the unit has died, provided you do so before the returning interceptors actually reach their carrier.
Ah awesome, thanks for the info.
I'd like to see carrier armor being brought back to 4, especially if the merging of vehicle and air upgrades go through. Still, great change.
I mentioned carrier armor being buffed to a friend and got shot down so hard about how OP it would be. Was told I just want an a-move unit that wins games.
No what we have is a a-move unit that is bad. They need more survivability and they need a build time decrease. Improved leash range micro is a start but there are other things they can do to make the carrier a unit that requires micro and will be good in the right hands.
I don't see how this kind of buff is out of line when mech/air upgrades get combined and ultras are getting a flat 35 damage.
On December 07 2012 20:24 Ooshmagoosh wrote: They also need to bring back the 4 armor, I dunno why they got rid of that =/
Because of guardian shield perhaps, that would make an effective armor of 6 against anything that can shoot it. I don't think it would be a problem in an actual game, but it may have been a concern back in the alpha days. Just speculating here.
Nothing new an that front anymore? I tested it myself, you can't switch targets when a unit dies, so this is pretty useless ATM. Sorry for getting this thread back up, but I feel like this needs some attention, or they won't fix it, till release... They probably don't even realize it's not done properly yet...
On December 10 2012 01:52 Talic_Zealot wrote: The thread title and reddit title are being super misleading.. No this is no way near carrier micro, it's only one step closer.
Come from the WoL carrier it is a pretty bit step though.
EPT
