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On November 26 2012 01:50 AfricanPsycho wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2012 10:14 avilo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 25 2012 06:57 denyeverything wrote:Don't build Mutas. Build Corruptors (if anything at all). Mutas are poor as generally as their advantage (speed) is greatly reduced due to Stalkers speed and warp-ins. Further, they have poor transitions (ie. they eat up gas that isn't going towards Infestor+Broodlord). Even in this case, the extreme range of Tempests greatly increases the risk of harassment. And additionally, they come with 2 native armor making Mutas terrible head to head too as the Muta bounce is greatly reduced (second bounce does nothing, first bounce does one). I haven't done the math, but head to head Mutas might just end up doing as atrocious damage against Tempest as Tempest do to everything else. Corruptors kill Protoss tech (air anything and Colossus) or lead to something that does (Broodlords beat Templar). The only time you don't build Corruptors is if they focus on Immortals. From a defensive standpoint, unless something novel is being done with them (i.e. not deathball), Tempests don't really play any differently than Colossus. Protoss is just trading away some of the reward (much lower DPS) for mitigating risk (can fight back against unit counter, range and HP make them harder to take down). But they get countered the same way, beat them before they come out/hit a numerical threshold or build air-to-air. Tempests are good for 2 things. 1) Holding an advantage. Huge life, long range, means that they can go for small advantages safely is fairly novel for Protoss. 2) Punishing people who cheat to get out tech. It's harder to avoid getting hit by a Tempest then anything else in the game. So banking a lot on a low life unit, can be risky. Show nested quote +On November 25 2012 05:39 avilo wrote:On November 25 2012 04:47 gCgCrypto wrote:On November 25 2012 02:58 avilo wrote:
Tempest + templar counters everything from all 3 races (well, except bio Terran). It's broodlord infestor 2.0. Blizzard should know about it by now, we'll see if they see it as a problem. Something tells me they're just gonna let it wreck the game for quite a while =/ You have literaly no idea about HotS do you? Maby learn to play your own Race before commenting on Balance for Matchups that dont include your Race ... Tempest Templar is very well defeatable for Zergs with some basic spreading, and for Terran Bio murders it (as you rightfully stated) I play Protoss and Terran in HOTS beta, GM/pro level. I actually play more Protoss in beta right now than I do Terran. I play Zerg at GM level as well, but I have not played much Zerg in the beta. You probably (wrongfully) assumed that I only play Terran. I know every race's lategame very much in depth. Tempest + templar right now is the god composition for Protoss. It beats essentially everything Zerg can throw at it, as well as everything from Terran mech, and in PvP it is also the end-game unit composition that Protoss now aims for. Also from the ZvP's I've played in beta I do not think Zerg has an answer to this unit composition, because hydras are still pretty bad, and the only other option is to make obscene amounts of corruptors which don't even trade well with mass tempest + templar and the protoss remaxes on ground (similar situation with tempests vs Terran mech + vikings, vikings don't trade well, Protoss remaxes on ground). I've played games where I've made 40 corruptors, and still had trouble trading well against tempest + templar + other units as well in the protoss deathball. I've also played the other side, PvZ, where Zergs have tried mass infestors for infested Terrans, mass corruptors, mass hydras, vipers, etc. and they've thrown it at my tempest + templar and barely even dented into it, or they trade so cost inefficiently that i just warp in 25 zealots/archons and kill them afterwards with multiple warp prisms on the map. I am not theorycrafting here, I'm telling you from play experience in every match-up, PvP/PvT/PvZ. A lot of people have the misconception that tempests are not good, but they're borderline OP at this point in time. + Show Spoiler +p.s. Don't make me write a guide about this damnit! :D i'm almost tempted to write up a guide on tempest + templar and how to abuse it right now. Dun get me angry! When I get angry i write strategy guides damnit! Yes, Tempest+Templar is good. However, both techs aren't particularly good early on. So it's different than Broodlord+Infestor. Infestors are amazing against Protoss whereas Templar are poor to decent against Zerg. Broodlords come from Corruptors which beat very important Protoss tech. Tempest don't really counter anything. 40 Corruptors is an obscene amount of gas to be throwing at units that are the worst DPS per supply units in the game. Also, mass infested Terrans is bad against Storm. So are mass Hydras. And I don't even know what you were planning on trying to achieve with mass Vipers. Obviously, mass Corruptors are bad against storm too. The answer is mass roach, go, go, go with a transition into Corruptors after beating down the ground army. The point is to crush the ground, stop Tempest/Templar production, and slow roll into a superior force of Corruptors where you transition into Broodlords, if necessary. Now if you are telling me, they went Sentry, Immortal, High Templar, Tempest.... well, I really don't know what to tell you. But the problem with Broodlord+Infestor is not just that it's an amazing late game composition, but that it is probably the most natural thing to transition from and into. If you can transition into a late game High Templar+Tempest composition, you deserve to win. The game doesn't work like that. You're acting like Protoss is not building collosus or other things. Tempest + templar is quite easy to get once the game gets to a certain point (usually 3-4 base). You're not going straight tempest + templar, you play standard blink stalker/collosus/sentry etc. and later on transition into it. Nothing beats it right now. And no, you don't deserve to win if you can transition into high templar + tempest because it's easy to do. If you really have that mentality, I guess you'll be fine with Protoss winning every game lmao :D Here are a few games I just played today, have a look. And btw, regardless of perceived skill, imagine once all progamers know to use this composition (most know about it already) and "get there." That's when the problem is, because there's no answer to it. PvZ: Standard PvZ into tempests + templar with mass archons. I take damage here and there, but once I have the god composition it's impossible to lose with good micro. http://drop.sc/278414PvZ: Standard PvZ again into tempests + templar, once again, no answer to this. http://drop.sc/278415PvZ: Same thing http://drop.sc/278416I barely even utilized the mothership in the above replays as well, so I could have played a tiny bit better. Perhaps you thought I was only "theorycrafting" maybe seeing is believing? I have not lost a PvZ yet when it gets to this stage, and I have a suspicion other Protosses that are doing this are having a lot of trouble losing when it gets to this point too. Not a single zerg took advantage of your greedy teching that game. One game you open 2 stargate, get one oracle, then go into triple robo colossus, all while taking a fast third and getting templar with storm too. I have feeling that any heavy zerg aggression that keeps you on 3 bases will destroy this. You were ridiculously greedy and the zergs just sat on their asses and assumed their imba brood infestor would win the game for them. This composition beats brood infestor + sitting back with 7000 spines, which it is suppose to. Zergs have to start making stuff happen instead of just camping behind spines and an unbeatable army, the tempest accomplishes this.
You missed the entire point. When the game gets to max 200/200 tempest vs templar there's very little chance to lose the game at that point for Protoss. Just like you shouldn't be able to get a freewin or an advantage for simply surviving to broodlord/infestor and massing infestors like Zergs currently enjoy in wings of liberty, it's the same design problem that now Protoss gets a free advantage for simply surviving to mass tempest templar with no answer from Zerg.
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Avilo, have you had anyone magic box corruptors to kill your tempests? Corruptors are good for cost vs tempests, but they take big splash damage from storm and archons. I suspect this is a problem that will solve itself as players learn the micro and timings.
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On November 26 2012 07:01 kcdc wrote:
Avilo, have you had anyone magic box corruptors to kill your tempests? Corruptors are good for cost vs tempests, but they take big splash damage from storm and archons. I suspect this is a problem that will solve itself as players learn the micro and timings.
I've had people try to spread before (as well as doing this myself ZvP games), and it makes it so when i have 16-20 tempests/15/16 templar, they have 2-3 corruptors attacking different tempests on the outskirt of my "tempest ball." Meaning they're not killing anything and i'm still storming/using archons/stalkers regardless. Not to mention you can avoid an arc easily just by moving away but yeah, i haven't lost to corruptor arcs yet either.
I don't know what other protoss/zerg experiences are like when games get to this stage. I think not enough Protosses know about this yet, which obviously means not many Zergs have played against it either. The reason I say that is because I still see people that think tempests are too weak right now @_@
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As a zerg, I've played against this a couple of times, with little success. One of the times I had 6 base against 3 on antiga but I didn't kill the toss in time so he got a critical mass of tempest with templar, collosus, and stalker. At that point I remaxed 3 times on corruptor infestor and couldn't kill him. The problem is the infestors cant get close enough to do any damage and corruptors just get killed too fast/don't kill the tempest fast enough.
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Write up a strategy guide for this, make it more commonly played and we'll see if its an issue.
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It's hard for me to imagine that Protoss can get 16-20 tempests without opening themselves up to taking damage on the way up to that tempest count. As others have pointed out in the thread, roach floods are going to be scary if you invest heavily in tempests. Perhaps some maps will make it too easy to turtle on 3 bases with forcefields, but this could potentially be fixed through map design. And aggression with drops and/or swarm hosts should be an option on any map. Lastly, there's always the option to send corruptor hit squads when there are 5-10 tempests instead of 16-20. You see this with motherships in WoL--Zerg will send a bunch of corruptors to snipes a mothership before a battle, sit back, remax, and THEN push with a proper army.
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I second a strategy guide, need to let Blizzard see how OP this is and let them decide on what to do.
Same as how they nerfed Thor with an mp bar
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@Avilo
I think the main problem is zerg have no idea how to play ZvP now. They have been relying on BL infestor, and now there is a counter to that. Protoss armies need to beat zerg armys lategame, if that doesn't happen the game is broken since zerg always has a supply and economic advantage + there tech costs nothing compared to protoss.
Give it a few months while zerg re-learn how to play, and the metagame shifts. I don't think this will be a problem.
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On November 26 2012 23:48 kcdc wrote:
It's hard for me to imagine that Protoss can get 16-20 tempests without opening themselves up to taking damage on the way up to that tempest count. As others have pointed out in the thread, roach floods are going to be scary if you invest heavily in tempests. Perhaps some maps will make it too easy to turtle on 3 bases with forcefields, but this could potentially be fixed through map design. And aggression with drops and/or swarm hosts should be an option on any map. Lastly, there's always the option to send corruptor hit squads when there are 5-10 tempests instead of 16-20. You see this with motherships in WoL--Zerg will send a bunch of corruptors to snipes a mothership before a battle, sit back, remax, and THEN push with a proper army.
Well, you don't need to imagine it! Because i posted replays!
Roach flood? What? Collosus still exist in HOTS! Don't mistake templar + tempest in the way I'm showing and describing it as some "noob rush" to tempests templar as quick as possible. Watch the replays I posted. It's standard Protoss collosus + gateway composition into tempests + templar later on in the game.
Any competent Protoss will just chrono out collosus if someone "masses roach." Even then, you don't really need to because you're going to end up with infestor-levels of high templar, where you get 10+ high templars and when you get to that number, high templars counter everything that the tempests don't, including roaches which are terribly supply inefficient for Zerg at that point in the game.
Hydralisk/corruptor/infested terrans/viper maybe? But once again, i've played ZvP and tried this and played PvZ against this, and hydras still suck hard at that point in the game. Psi storm wrecks hydras, and feedback insta-gibs vipers if the Zerg tries to use those.
I don't think corruptor hitsquads are anywhere realistic, that sounds like a dream. The thing I see similar for both T and Z vs this templar + tempest (what i now call the "god composition" because it seems to beat everything and anything) is that the only realistic counter to the tempest from the other races is to mass corruptors or mass vikings.
For Terran that's bad because vikings don't even trade effectively once storm is in play, and in the catch-22 scenario that you do trade efficiently (you won't), you land them and you lose anyways.
For Zerg, you need a ridiculous amount of corruptors to make a dent in this god composition, and in the event you somehow trade efficiently (you won't) then the Protoss just warps in all archon/stalker/chargelot and rolls you.
Even in PvP, theoretically in lategame, as well as in my own experience a couple times playing into lategame PvP, the counter to this tempest accumulation is...building mass tempest of your own lol.
On November 26 2012 23:54 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
I second a strategy guide, need to let Blizzard see how OP this is and let them decide on what to do.
Same as how they nerfed Thor with an mp bar
I may!
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Im not sure about the other matchups.. but tempest/HT/stalkers murder any mech composition in TvP Hots. The fact that mech timings are very difficult to pull off since it lacks muscle means that Protoss often can cut alot of corners to amass tempests on top of setting up their econ + tech switches incase the T wins the air war. Its quite sad really, when protoss has their own version of broodlords/infestor.
I mean in TvT, a tech switch to BCs/air against a meching player does give some options for the mech player to apply the appropriate pressure AND have a way of dealing with the air threat (turrets/mass vikings/thors etc).. but range 15 + insane hitpoints just kills off everything. Get PDDs? theyll just fly away and maybe snipe the pdd afar. With tempests out of the picture for mech TvP, I think its not too bad. With tempests, its 200% bio all the way.
Maybe blizzard have realised, but they've created a super BW guardian in the form of a protoss unit.. man you get to a certain number of these units, the critical mass they hurt alot.
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@Avilo
Templar's are bad in PvZ they have always been, roaches just soak up the damage and regen it. I don't know how you got to masters playing as greedy as you do, looking at gsl matches, mlg where people play normally you get crushed.
Tempests and templar are slow, how to you deal with counter attacks / base snipes? Realistically speaking in proper pro level match you are either going to go gready tech of 3 bases / go for a strong collusus ball and take a 4th base. Yeah you might have a stong push of 3 base, but a good zerg will remax and crush through with macro.
WhiteRa tries to go for this composition and struggles alot to get of the ground, most games he just straight up gets roflstomped before he gets the composition. When he does get off the ground, he struggles vs corrupters and roaches, and heavy aggression. Unless you think you are a better player than him, I suggest you quit QQing about balance, and get your MMR up to where zergs actually attack before 25minutes with something other than muta's.
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On November 27 2012 09:55 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 23:48 kcdc wrote:
It's hard for me to imagine that Protoss can get 16-20 tempests without opening themselves up to taking damage on the way up to that tempest count. As others have pointed out in the thread, roach floods are going to be scary if you invest heavily in tempests. Perhaps some maps will make it too easy to turtle on 3 bases with forcefields, but this could potentially be fixed through map design. And aggression with drops and/or swarm hosts should be an option on any map. Lastly, there's always the option to send corruptor hit squads when there are 5-10 tempests instead of 16-20. You see this with motherships in WoL--Zerg will send a bunch of corruptors to snipes a mothership before a battle, sit back, remax, and THEN push with a proper army. Well, you don't need to imagine it! Because i posted replays! Roach flood? What? Collosus still exist in HOTS! Don't mistake templar + tempest in the way I'm showing and describing it as some "noob rush" to tempests templar as quick as possible. Watch the replays I posted. It's standard Protoss collosus + gateway composition into tempests + templar later on in the game. Any competent Protoss will just chrono out collosus if someone "masses roach." Even then, you don't really need to because you're going to end up with infestor-levels of high templar, where you get 10+ high templars and when you get to that number, high templars counter everything that the tempests don't, including roaches which are terribly supply inefficient for Zerg at that point in the game. Hydralisk/corruptor/infested terrans/viper maybe? But once again, i've played ZvP and tried this and played PvZ against this, and hydras still suck hard at that point in the game. Psi storm wrecks hydras, and feedback insta-gibs vipers if the Zerg tries to use those. I don't think corruptor hitsquads are anywhere realistic, that sounds like a dream. The thing I see similar for both T and Z vs this templar + tempest (what i now call the "god composition" because it seems to beat everything and anything) is that the only realistic counter to the tempest from the other races is to mass corruptors or mass vikings. For Terran that's bad because vikings don't even trade effectively once storm is in play, and in the catch-22 scenario that you do trade efficiently (you won't), you land them and you lose anyways. For Zerg, you need a ridiculous amount of corruptors to make a dent in this god composition, and in the event you somehow trade efficiently (you won't) then the Protoss just warps in all archon/stalker/chargelot and rolls you. Even in PvP, theoretically in lategame, as well as in my own experience a couple times playing into lategame PvP, the counter to this tempest accumulation is...building mass tempest of your own lol. Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 23:54 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
I second a strategy guide, need to let Blizzard see how OP this is and let them decide on what to do.
Same as how they nerfed Thor with an mp bar I may!
Since you main Terran, I'm not sure you understand all the subtleties of PvZ. Protoss is always behind in income, so trading inefficiently is often a winning play for Zerg. You say that Protoss can stop all ground-based aggression by building a bunch of colossi to set up the templar+tempest transition, but what you may not know is that this transition conceptually mirrors a carrier transition in WoL. Carriers+templar is a "god composition" in WoL PvZ if you can get up to 6-8 carriers with good support. The problem is that Zerg doesn't have to let you get there because Zerg can constantly trade as Protoss attempts to transition, keeping the air fleet from reaching critical mass. Protoss wants colossi, archons, templar, stalkers, and air units, and unless you're at least even on economy (very difficult to achieve), you just don't have the gas to bankroll a proper carrier transition if Zerg stays aggressive.
Tempests are easier to build as support because they're cheaper and have shorter build times, but their DPS is shit, so the critical mass is much further away than it is with carriers. Well-timed aggression is the key to stopping carriers in WoL. I suspect Zergs can find ways to deal with tempests in a similar manner.
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It's interesting that you call 6-8 carriers "god mode" because the last protoss I saw get 8+ max upgraded carriers in a PvZ was beaten down super hard by the default zerg deathball. Still, I like the idea of using Tempest and templar, sounds hard to get to but a lot of fun.
How often do Terran respond with mass raven to this btw? Seems like with well position PDD the mass tempest would be rendered much less useful.
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On November 27 2012 14:15 SolidZeal wrote:
It's interesting that you call 6-8 carriers "god mode" because the last protoss I saw get 8+ max upgraded carriers in a PvZ was beaten down super hard by the default zerg deathball. Still, I like the idea of using Tempest and templar, sounds hard to get to but a lot of fun.
How often do Terran respond with mass raven to this btw? Seems like with well position PDD the mass tempest would be rendered much less useful.
Thats why tempest sucks vs Terran unless you have ht for feedback against the ppd or ravens.
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On November 27 2012 10:31 YyapSsap wrote:
Im not sure about the other matchups.. but tempest/HT/stalkers murder any mech composition in TvP Hots
Anything from protoss murders terran mech.
More to the point, Avilo I watched your replays and while the composition seem very strong, I have a few remarks :
- First, you seem to not really get templar/tempest, more tempest + collo + templar + archon. collo and archons are here to dispatch the broodlings and locusts. Because contrary to what you say, storm is not fast enough to dispatch the free units from zerg, and you may run out of it anyway.
- It seems like you outmatched the zergs you faced. On one replay, you won almost from the start with an efficient cannon rush and could have ended the game around 10 minutes. I reckon your P is very good!
- It looks like the Zs have no idea what to do against this composition. They stick to inf+BL, which may not be the ideal (actually, it may be the worst as tempest murder BLs). They do not really try to drop/runby/generally outmaneuver your slow army, like toss learned to do against inf+BL. One thing I saw one Z do but only once, was to send a pack of corruptors in your base when your army was away, to kill the tempests popping out of the stargates. He killed 2-3 of them, for almost no loss. He did not realize that was a tactic worth repeating alas 
All in all it seems quite strong, but not BL+inf strong. At no point you could really engage head-on the Z (and you did not). You lost numerous bases even though they did not put a strong emphasis on attacking at multiple places. You mostly won through attrition because the Zs were not able to imagine a counter.
That's only my view of these 3 random replays, I could be wrong ofc. To really be the "god composition" you mention, I think you have to prove you can transition safely to it before the very late game and explain how it fairs against various tactics. Show us a guide! 
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On November 28 2012 00:16 ant-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 10:31 YyapSsap wrote:
Im not sure about the other matchups.. but tempest/HT/stalkers murder any mech composition in TvP Hots Anything from protoss murders terran mech.
Not really.
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So how was storm changed in HoTS that it now apparently counters roaches?
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On November 27 2012 11:25 AfricanPsycho wrote:
@Avilo
Templar's are bad in PvZ they have always been, roaches just soak up the damage and regen it. I don't know how you got to masters playing as greedy as you do, looking at gsl matches, mlg where people play normally you get crushed.
Tempests and templar are slow, how to you deal with counter attacks / base snipes? Realistically speaking in proper pro level match you are either going to go gready tech of 3 bases / go for a strong collusus ball and take a 4th base. Yeah you might have a stong push of 3 base, but a good zerg will remax and crush through with macro.
WhiteRa tries to go for this composition and struggles alot to get of the ground, most games he just straight up gets roflstomped before he gets the composition. When he does get off the ground, he struggles vs corrupters and roaches, and heavy aggression. Unless you think you are a better player than him, I suggest you quit QQing about balance, and get your MMR up to where zergs actually attack before 25minutes with something other than muta's.
What you try to bring up is basically the same argument Zergs used for month to justify the Imbanesss of Broodlord Infestor Corruptor. It's so hard to get there. What is about counterattacks....bla bla bla bla. This argument doesn't change in anyway that there is a new god composition and once somebody gets to it he wins. Just like in ZvX where Zerg found ways to get to the god composition people will find ways to get to this composition safely as well. And then you have the same problem like in WoL. 2 Races play against the clock while one plays in favor of it and this is shitty design.
On November 28 2012 04:44 Resistentialism wrote:
So how was storm changed in HoTS that it now apparently counters roaches?
By introducing a counter to Broodlords called Tempests.
Roaches were never the counter to late game Archon Templar Compositions. Never. People went Broodlords and Templars hit a brick (broodling) wall.
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On November 28 2012 04:53 AbideWithMe wrote:
What you try to bring up is basically the same argument Zergs used for month to justify the Imbanesss of Broodlord Infestor Corruptor. It's so hard to get there. What is about counterattacks....bla bla bla bla. This argument doesn't change in anyway that there is a new god composition and once somebody gets to it he wins. Just like in ZvX where Zerg found ways to get to the god composition people will find ways to get to this composition safely as well. And then you have the same problem like in WoL. 2 Races play against the clock while one plays in favor of it and this is shitty design.
Hmm, I guess I was not clear enough: from the replays, it seems the zergs were outclassed, that the composition is very late game at best, and only desirable if the Z go for inf + BL. I mean, storm + shitty tempest DPS, on paper, should be rolled over by speed roaches killing your expansions left and right and a final corruptor push to clean the tempests.
I'm not convinced it's a god composition, is all. But I'll try it more to make up my mind about it.
If Avilo makes a guide
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On November 28 2012 06:17 ant-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2012 04:53 AbideWithMe wrote:
What you try to bring up is basically the same argument Zergs used for month to justify the Imbanesss of Broodlord Infestor Corruptor. It's so hard to get there. What is about counterattacks....bla bla bla bla. This argument doesn't change in anyway that there is a new god composition and once somebody gets to it he wins. Just like in ZvX where Zerg found ways to get to the god composition people will find ways to get to this composition safely as well. And then you have the same problem like in WoL. 2 Races play against the clock while one plays in favor of it and this is shitty design.
Hmm, I guess I was not clear enough: from the replays, it seems the zergs were outclassed, that the composition is very late game at best, and only desirable if the Z go for inf + BL. I mean, storm + shitty tempest DPS, on paper, should be rolled over by speed roaches killing your expansions left and right and a final corruptor push to clean the tempests. I'm not convinced it's a god composition, is all. But I'll try it more to make up my mind about it. If Avilo makes a guide
You somehow forget that you have a good amount of archons and a mothership in that composition to defend and an enormous and most importantly uncontested siege potential yourself with the gigantic tempest range. How is a zerg supposed to invest that heavily into roaches without simply dying to the tempests knocking on his door.
Tempests honestly don't seem that hard to mass as they are considerably cheaper and faster to build than carriers which Protoss where able to mass in certain games against zerg pretty well (With not that much succes due to the suckiness of carriers though)
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EPT
