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Basically, im at silver level in Hots, and most if not all my games that i don't match vs gm (hots) and get raped,
points in my games that happen
* 1 or even 2 bases ahead of the Protoss
* mass units at 12 min mark when i see he doesn't position to take 3rd
* sac changelings to scout composition (see's tempest)
* in response to tempest i get spire and mass mutalisk (normally i get to about 30ish and herass why attempting to take 5th for gas so i can make more muta's lol)
* attack hits around 13 -17 min mark
* his composition is very similar to wol's voidray collous+ stalkers and zealots ball but with tempest instead
so basically what do you guyz do? the old counter used to be get infestors and ramm down fungles on the ball so disable his mirco and ff's spamm, but tempest are veyr good at countering infestors.
mutas trade well with tempests without support but seems to be one sided when it comes with stalker support, hydraslisk just lol really just lol, im not confident in rushing hive from 3 base to get defliers.
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Tempest have pretty bad dps and are very expensive, it is unlikely he will be able to deal with a mass roach or roach hydra counterattack as his ground force will be very small, tempest are slow, and will always lose base trades. You can run in and keep sniping his expansions, those tempests are just gonna tickle you if they even manage to get close.
As a direct counter, corrupters will dominate them and I can see vipers working pretty well if you have already have hydras, or even corrupters (to pull them away from AA support)
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you don't have to trade with mutas, the advantage of muta is its speed and that is exactly what tempest and voidray lacks. This will force him to put in cannons and more stalkers while buying you time to expand, upgrades and get the usual broodlord infestor ultra deathball.
just keep harassing, try to snipe off gas, back stabbing.
You can also try to snipe off tempest when their stalkers are out of position.
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against the air based Protos a mix of corrupters, Hydras and infestors seems ideal. If you can just add some Vipers.
The basic idea is to hold the air stuff in place and dps it down with Hydras.
When the tempest are out of range however the corrupters really shine.
Most importantly you need to get hive relativly quick for hydra speed.
Also i can only recommend opening spire before eny other lair tech enyway and going for some muta herras. This saves you from a lot of early losses to tempest who shoot down your drones from far out in air space, where you cant attack them without corrupters or Mutas.
hope it helpes
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Corruptors counter Tempest hard.
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Tempest + templar counters everything from all 3 races (well, except bio Terran). It's broodlord infestor 2.0. Blizzard should know about it by now, we'll see if they see it as a problem. Something tells me they're just gonna let it wreck the game for quite a while =/
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On November 25 2012 02:58 avilo wrote:
Tempest + templar counters everything from all 3 races (well, except bio Terran). It's broodlord infestor 2.0. Blizzard should know about it by now, we'll see if they see it as a problem. Something tells me they're just gonna let it wreck the game for quite a while =/
There is the standard way to deal with it though ... "dont let him get there" ... which is stupid, because every type of unit combination should be fightable with units and not through preventing it from happening. At 22 range and probably cloaked the Tempest is a huge pain to fight if massed and I wonder when Blizzard recognizes this. With Carriers you can at least shoot the Interceptors to deal with it temporarily, but Tempests dont afford you such a luxury.
Sure the stuff is expensive to mass up, but as a Protoss you can cannon up your 3rd and 4th base massively while having just a few units to defend and just add in some fire from Tempests or some Templars while rushing through the necessary tech.
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wait for the incoming hp nerf of the tempest. right now it has the by far best hp/supply ratio of all units in the game. a range 15 unit with the best hp/supply ratio in the game is...well its beyond stupid ^^
meanwhile you will need to go spire + IP once you scoutet stargate (you need spire because otherwise tempest behind your base will be unkillable. you need IP for infestors if he goes mass phoenix/oracles). once you see which he chooses either go infestor or corruptor and add the other one as needed. you will need a roach warren to deal with zealot harrass.
then: get drop, expand a lot and kill him. tempest are really bad at killing overlords and take a lot of gas so there wont be a lot of stalkers that can kill your roach ling (optional: hydras, blings, queens) drop.
if you let him get the ultimate deathball see avilos statement. a tempest + storm + colossus/whatever support army is unbeatable right now (btw even hard for bio in combination with some oracles for timewarp...).
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On November 25 2012 02:58 avilo wrote:
Tempest + templar counters everything from all 3 races (well, except bio Terran). It's broodlord infestor 2.0. Blizzard should know about it by now, we'll see if they see it as a problem. Something tells me they're just gonna let it wreck the game for quite a while =/
You have literaly no idea about HotS do you?
Maby learn to play your own Race before commenting on Balance for Matchups that dont include your Race ...
Tempest Templar is very well defeatable for Zergs with some basic spreading, and for Terran Bio murders it (as you rightfully stated)
User was warned for this post
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On November 25 2012 04:47 gCgCrypto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2012 02:58 avilo wrote:
Tempest + templar counters everything from all 3 races (well, except bio Terran). It's broodlord infestor 2.0. Blizzard should know about it by now, we'll see if they see it as a problem. Something tells me they're just gonna let it wreck the game for quite a while =/ You have literaly no idea about HotS do you? Maby learn to play your own Race before commenting on Balance for Matchups that dont include your Race ... Tempest Templar is very well defeatable for Zergs with some basic spreading, and for Terran Bio murders it (as you rightfully stated)
I play Protoss and Terran in HOTS beta, GM/pro level. I actually play more Protoss in beta right now than I do Terran. I play Zerg at GM level as well, but I have not played much Zerg in the beta.
You probably (wrongfully) assumed that I only play Terran. I know every race's lategame very much in depth. Tempest + templar right now is the god composition for Protoss. It beats essentially everything Zerg can throw at it, as well as everything from Terran mech, and in PvP it is also the end-game unit composition that Protoss now aims for.
Also from the ZvP's I've played in beta I do not think Zerg has an answer to this unit composition, because hydras are still pretty bad, and the only other option is to make obscene amounts of corruptors which don't even trade well with mass tempest + templar and the protoss remaxes on ground (similar situation with tempests vs Terran mech + vikings, vikings don't trade well, Protoss remaxes on ground).
I've played games where I've made 40 corruptors, and still had trouble trading well against tempest + templar + other units as well in the protoss deathball. I've also played the other side, PvZ, where Zergs have tried mass infestors for infested Terrans, mass corruptors, mass hydras, vipers, etc. and they've thrown it at my tempest + templar and barely even dented into it, or they trade so cost inefficiently that i just warp in 25 zealots/archons and kill them afterwards with multiple warp prisms on the map.
I am not theorycrafting here, I'm telling you from play experience in every match-up, PvP/PvT/PvZ. A lot of people have the misconception that tempests are not good, but they're borderline OP at this point in time.
+ Show Spoiler +p.s. Don't make me write a guide about this damnit! :D i'm almost tempted to write up a guide on tempest + templar and how to abuse it right now. Dun get me angry! When I get angry i write strategy guides damnit!
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On November 25 2012 05:39 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2012 04:47 gCgCrypto wrote:On November 25 2012 02:58 avilo wrote:
Tempest + templar counters everything from all 3 races (well, except bio Terran). It's broodlord infestor 2.0. Blizzard should know about it by now, we'll see if they see it as a problem. Something tells me they're just gonna let it wreck the game for quite a while =/ You have literaly no idea about HotS do you? Maby learn to play your own Race before commenting on Balance for Matchups that dont include your Race ... Tempest Templar is very well defeatable for Zergs with some basic spreading, and for Terran Bio murders it (as you rightfully stated) I play Protoss and Terran in HOTS beta, GM/pro level. I actually play more Protoss in beta right now than I do Terran. I play Zerg at GM level as well, but I have not played much Zerg in the beta. You probably (wrongfully) assumed that I only play Terran. I know every race's lategame very much in depth. Tempest + templar right now is the god composition for Protoss. It beats essentially everything Zerg can throw at it, as well as everything from Terran mech, and in PvP it is also the end-game unit composition that Protoss now aims for. Also from the ZvP's I've played in beta I do not think Zerg has an answer to this unit composition, because hydras are still pretty bad, and the only other option is to make obscene amounts of corruptors which don't even trade well with mass tempest + templar and the protoss remaxes on ground (similar situation with tempests vs Terran mech + vikings, vikings don't trade well, Protoss remaxes on ground). I've played games where I've made 40 corruptors, and still had trouble trading well against tempest + templar + other units as well in the protoss deathball. I've also played the other side, PvZ, where Zergs have tried mass infestors for infested Terrans, mass corruptors, mass hydras, vipers, etc. and they've thrown it at my tempest + templar and barely even dented into it, or they trade so cost inefficiently that i just warp in 25 zealots/archons and kill them afterwards with multiple warp prisms on the map. I am not theorycrafting here, I'm telling you from play experience in every match-up, PvP/PvT/PvZ. A lot of people have the misconception that tempests are not good, but they're borderline OP at this point in time. + Show Spoiler +p.s. Don't make me write a guide about this damnit! :D i'm almost tempted to write up a guide on tempest + templar and how to abuse it right now. Dun get me angry! When I get angry i write strategy guides damnit!
Get angry. I want to read that guide.
Your mother wore leather. Does that help?
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Don't build Mutas. Build Corruptors (if anything at all).
Mutas are poor as generally as their advantage (speed) is greatly reduced due to Stalkers speed and warp-ins. Further, they have poor transitions (ie. they eat up gas that isn't going towards Infestor+Broodlord). Even in this case, the extreme range of Tempests greatly increases the risk of harassment. And additionally, they come with 2 native armor making Mutas terrible head to head too as the Muta bounce is greatly reduced (second bounce does nothing, first bounce does one). I haven't done the math, but head to head Mutas might just end up doing as atrocious damage against Tempest as Tempest do to everything else.
Corruptors kill Protoss tech (air anything and Colossus) or lead to something that does (Broodlords beat Templar). The only time you don't build Corruptors is if they focus on Immortals.
From a defensive standpoint, unless something novel is being done with them (i.e. not deathball), Tempests don't really play any differently than Colossus. Protoss is just trading away some of the reward (much lower DPS) for mitigating risk (can fight back against unit counter, range and HP make them harder to take down). But they get countered the same way, beat them before they come out/hit a numerical threshold or build air-to-air.
Tempests are good for 2 things.
1) Holding an advantage. Huge life, long range, means that they can go for small advantages safely is fairly novel for Protoss.
2) Punishing people who cheat to get out tech. It's harder to avoid getting hit by a Tempest then anything else in the game. So banking a lot on a low life unit, can be risky.
On November 25 2012 05:39 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2012 04:47 gCgCrypto wrote:On November 25 2012 02:58 avilo wrote:
Tempest + templar counters everything from all 3 races (well, except bio Terran). It's broodlord infestor 2.0. Blizzard should know about it by now, we'll see if they see it as a problem. Something tells me they're just gonna let it wreck the game for quite a while =/ You have literaly no idea about HotS do you? Maby learn to play your own Race before commenting on Balance for Matchups that dont include your Race ... Tempest Templar is very well defeatable for Zergs with some basic spreading, and for Terran Bio murders it (as you rightfully stated) I play Protoss and Terran in HOTS beta, GM/pro level. I actually play more Protoss in beta right now than I do Terran. I play Zerg at GM level as well, but I have not played much Zerg in the beta. You probably (wrongfully) assumed that I only play Terran. I know every race's lategame very much in depth. Tempest + templar right now is the god composition for Protoss. It beats essentially everything Zerg can throw at it, as well as everything from Terran mech, and in PvP it is also the end-game unit composition that Protoss now aims for. Also from the ZvP's I've played in beta I do not think Zerg has an answer to this unit composition, because hydras are still pretty bad, and the only other option is to make obscene amounts of corruptors which don't even trade well with mass tempest + templar and the protoss remaxes on ground (similar situation with tempests vs Terran mech + vikings, vikings don't trade well, Protoss remaxes on ground). I've played games where I've made 40 corruptors, and still had trouble trading well against tempest + templar + other units as well in the protoss deathball. I've also played the other side, PvZ, where Zergs have tried mass infestors for infested Terrans, mass corruptors, mass hydras, vipers, etc. and they've thrown it at my tempest + templar and barely even dented into it, or they trade so cost inefficiently that i just warp in 25 zealots/archons and kill them afterwards with multiple warp prisms on the map. I am not theorycrafting here, I'm telling you from play experience in every match-up, PvP/PvT/PvZ. A lot of people have the misconception that tempests are not good, but they're borderline OP at this point in time. + Show Spoiler +p.s. Don't make me write a guide about this damnit! :D i'm almost tempted to write up a guide on tempest + templar and how to abuse it right now. Dun get me angry! When I get angry i write strategy guides damnit!
Yes, Tempest+Templar is good. However, both techs aren't particularly good early on. So it's different than Broodlord+Infestor. Infestors are amazing against Protoss whereas Templar are poor to decent against Zerg. Broodlords come from Corruptors which beat very important Protoss tech. Tempest don't really counter anything.
40 Corruptors is an obscene amount of gas to be throwing at units that are the worst DPS per supply units in the game. Also, mass infested Terrans is bad against Storm. So are mass Hydras. And I don't even know what you were planning on trying to achieve with mass Vipers. Obviously, mass Corruptors are bad against storm too. The answer is mass roach, go, go, go with a transition into Corruptors after beating down the ground army. The point is to crush the ground, stop Tempest/Templar production, and slow roll into a superior force of Corruptors where you transition into Broodlords, if necessary.
Now if you are telling me, they went Sentry, Immortal, High Templar, Tempest.... well, I really don't know what to tell you. But the problem with Broodlord+Infestor is not just that it's an amazing late game composition, but that it is probably the most natural thing to transition from and into. If you can transition into a late game High Templar+Tempest composition, you deserve to win.
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I'm not doubting your skill Avilo, I'm certain you're better at the game than me, and it's cool you play random. I'm surprised that you've had so much trouble with templar/tempest. With both of the core units being so slow and so pitiful when attacking buildings, couldn't you as a zerg or terran just base race the toss into oblivion? I mean, both of this death ball's core units are sooo slow, i would think you could just abuse mobility to win. Or, if they turtle, then mass expand, then trade somewhat unevenly, as long as you can crush the ball.
I like protoss the best of all the races, but i really hate turtle into deathball style of play, problems like this ruin sc2 as a spectator game. I watched a GSL PvZ recently that just made my head want to explode. 25 minutes of ineffective harass, building perfect armies, into a fight that looked silly and was over in 5 seconds. I never want to see that ever again in something that I watch for "entertainment". So, if that problem is built into HotS I'd hope we can weed it out. My initial reaction is that it won't be as bad of a problem with this new protoss death ball, because tempests are low dps and neither them or templar can slow/stop units. Couldn't you, for example, use a roach hit squad to run in and snipe templar? They are way fast, basically expendable and tough enough that storm/low tempest couldn't stop them before they started killing templar.
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On November 25 2012 06:57 denyeverything wrote:Don't build Mutas. Build Corruptors (if anything at all). Mutas are poor as generally as their advantage (speed) is greatly reduced due to Stalkers speed and warp-ins. Further, they have poor transitions (ie. they eat up gas that isn't going towards Infestor+Broodlord). Even in this case, the extreme range of Tempests greatly increases the risk of harassment. And additionally, they come with 2 native armor making Mutas terrible head to head too as the Muta bounce is greatly reduced (second bounce does nothing, first bounce does one). I haven't done the math, but head to head Mutas might just end up doing as atrocious damage against Tempest as Tempest do to everything else. Corruptors kill Protoss tech (air anything and Colossus) or lead to something that does (Broodlords beat Templar). The only time you don't build Corruptors is if they focus on Immortals. From a defensive standpoint, unless something novel is being done with them (i.e. not deathball), Tempests don't really play any differently than Colossus. Protoss is just trading away some of the reward (much lower DPS) for mitigating risk (can fight back against unit counter, range and HP make them harder to take down). But they get countered the same way, beat them before they come out/hit a numerical threshold or build air-to-air. Tempests are good for 2 things. 1) Holding an advantage. Huge life, long range, means that they can go for small advantages safely is fairly novel for Protoss. 2) Punishing people who cheat to get out tech. It's harder to avoid getting hit by a Tempest then anything else in the game. So banking a lot on a low life unit, can be risky. Show nested quote +On November 25 2012 05:39 avilo wrote:On November 25 2012 04:47 gCgCrypto wrote:On November 25 2012 02:58 avilo wrote:
Tempest + templar counters everything from all 3 races (well, except bio Terran). It's broodlord infestor 2.0. Blizzard should know about it by now, we'll see if they see it as a problem. Something tells me they're just gonna let it wreck the game for quite a while =/ You have literaly no idea about HotS do you? Maby learn to play your own Race before commenting on Balance for Matchups that dont include your Race ... Tempest Templar is very well defeatable for Zergs with some basic spreading, and for Terran Bio murders it (as you rightfully stated) I play Protoss and Terran in HOTS beta, GM/pro level. I actually play more Protoss in beta right now than I do Terran. I play Zerg at GM level as well, but I have not played much Zerg in the beta. You probably (wrongfully) assumed that I only play Terran. I know every race's lategame very much in depth. Tempest + templar right now is the god composition for Protoss. It beats essentially everything Zerg can throw at it, as well as everything from Terran mech, and in PvP it is also the end-game unit composition that Protoss now aims for. Also from the ZvP's I've played in beta I do not think Zerg has an answer to this unit composition, because hydras are still pretty bad, and the only other option is to make obscene amounts of corruptors which don't even trade well with mass tempest + templar and the protoss remaxes on ground (similar situation with tempests vs Terran mech + vikings, vikings don't trade well, Protoss remaxes on ground). I've played games where I've made 40 corruptors, and still had trouble trading well against tempest + templar + other units as well in the protoss deathball. I've also played the other side, PvZ, where Zergs have tried mass infestors for infested Terrans, mass corruptors, mass hydras, vipers, etc. and they've thrown it at my tempest + templar and barely even dented into it, or they trade so cost inefficiently that i just warp in 25 zealots/archons and kill them afterwards with multiple warp prisms on the map. I am not theorycrafting here, I'm telling you from play experience in every match-up, PvP/PvT/PvZ. A lot of people have the misconception that tempests are not good, but they're borderline OP at this point in time. + Show Spoiler +p.s. Don't make me write a guide about this damnit! :D i'm almost tempted to write up a guide on tempest + templar and how to abuse it right now. Dun get me angry! When I get angry i write strategy guides damnit! Yes, Tempest+Templar is good. However, both techs aren't particularly good early on. So it's different than Broodlord+Infestor. Infestors are amazing against Protoss whereas Templar are poor to decent against Zerg. Broodlords come from Corruptors which beat very important Protoss tech. Tempest don't really counter anything. 40 Corruptors is an obscene amount of gas to be throwing at units that are the worst DPS per supply units in the game. Also, mass infested Terrans is bad against Storm. So are mass Hydras. And I don't even know what you were planning on trying to achieve with mass Vipers. Obviously, mass Corruptors are bad against storm too. The answer is mass roach, go, go, go with a transition into Corruptors after beating down the ground army. The point is to crush the ground, stop Tempest/Templar production, and slow roll into a superior force of Corruptors where you transition into Broodlords, if necessary. Now if you are telling me, they went Sentry, Immortal, High Templar, Tempest.... well, I really don't know what to tell you. But the problem with Broodlord+Infestor is not just that it's an amazing late game composition, but that it is probably the most natural thing to transition from and into. If you can transition into a late game High Templar+Tempest composition, you deserve to win.
The game doesn't work like that. You're acting like Protoss is not building collosus or other things. Tempest + templar is quite easy to get once the game gets to a certain point (usually 3-4 base). You're not going straight tempest + templar, you play standard blink stalker/collosus/sentry etc. and later on transition into it. Nothing beats it right now.
And no, you don't deserve to win if you can transition into high templar + tempest because it's easy to do. If you really have that mentality, I guess you'll be fine with Protoss winning every game lmao :D
Here are a few games I just played today, have a look. And btw, regardless of perceived skill, imagine once all progamers know to use this composition (most know about it already) and "get there." That's when the problem is, because there's no answer to it.
PvZ: Standard PvZ into tempests + templar with mass archons. I take damage here and there, but once I have the god composition it's impossible to lose with good micro.
http://drop.sc/278414
PvZ: Standard PvZ again into tempests + templar, once again, no answer to this.
http://drop.sc/278415
PvZ: Same thing
http://drop.sc/278416
I barely even utilized the mothership in the above replays as well, so I could have played a tiny bit better. Perhaps you thought I was only "theorycrafting" maybe seeing is believing? I have not lost a PvZ yet when it gets to this stage, and I have a suspicion other Protosses that are doing this are having a lot of trouble losing when it gets to this point too.
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Watched my replays before going out and while sitting Dow. I did realise that, the issue was tempests an Templar (TT) for short , basically people advise to mass exspand and trade before he gets to 200/200
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Thanks for the replays Avilo, I look forward to analyzing them.
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United Kingdom20275 Posts
Balance at the pro level has nothing to do with a silver league player, or even a diamond one.
Fix your fundamentals, hit injects, dont have idle larvae, scout properly, spread creep, dont get supply blocked, you cannot possibly lose til higher end of diamond unless you fuck it up, regardless of strategy.
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On November 25 2012 16:51 Cyro wrote:
Balance at the pro level has nothing to do with a silver league player, or even a diamond one.
Fix your fundamentals, hit injects, dont have idle larvae, scout properly, spread creep, dont get supply blocked, you cannot possibly lose til higher end of diamond unless you fuck it up, regardless of strategy.
read the thread before posting maybe. GM player avilo stated he has the same problems if playing zerg against this or 100% winrate as toss vs zerg once he gets this composition.
tempest is OP right now but hey its almost 4 months til the game comes out. a lot of balancing will happen in that 4 months and after game is out.
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the tempest is no where near OP, seen plenty of m/ gm zerg streamers wreck the composition on the streams advertised on this very site
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On November 25 2012 10:14 avilo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 25 2012 06:57 denyeverything wrote:Don't build Mutas. Build Corruptors (if anything at all). Mutas are poor as generally as their advantage (speed) is greatly reduced due to Stalkers speed and warp-ins. Further, they have poor transitions (ie. they eat up gas that isn't going towards Infestor+Broodlord). Even in this case, the extreme range of Tempests greatly increases the risk of harassment. And additionally, they come with 2 native armor making Mutas terrible head to head too as the Muta bounce is greatly reduced (second bounce does nothing, first bounce does one). I haven't done the math, but head to head Mutas might just end up doing as atrocious damage against Tempest as Tempest do to everything else. Corruptors kill Protoss tech (air anything and Colossus) or lead to something that does (Broodlords beat Templar). The only time you don't build Corruptors is if they focus on Immortals. From a defensive standpoint, unless something novel is being done with them (i.e. not deathball), Tempests don't really play any differently than Colossus. Protoss is just trading away some of the reward (much lower DPS) for mitigating risk (can fight back against unit counter, range and HP make them harder to take down). But they get countered the same way, beat them before they come out/hit a numerical threshold or build air-to-air. Tempests are good for 2 things. 1) Holding an advantage. Huge life, long range, means that they can go for small advantages safely is fairly novel for Protoss. 2) Punishing people who cheat to get out tech. It's harder to avoid getting hit by a Tempest then anything else in the game. So banking a lot on a low life unit, can be risky. Show nested quote +On November 25 2012 05:39 avilo wrote:On November 25 2012 04:47 gCgCrypto wrote:On November 25 2012 02:58 avilo wrote:
Tempest + templar counters everything from all 3 races (well, except bio Terran). It's broodlord infestor 2.0. Blizzard should know about it by now, we'll see if they see it as a problem. Something tells me they're just gonna let it wreck the game for quite a while =/ You have literaly no idea about HotS do you? Maby learn to play your own Race before commenting on Balance for Matchups that dont include your Race ... Tempest Templar is very well defeatable for Zergs with some basic spreading, and for Terran Bio murders it (as you rightfully stated) I play Protoss and Terran in HOTS beta, GM/pro level. I actually play more Protoss in beta right now than I do Terran. I play Zerg at GM level as well, but I have not played much Zerg in the beta. You probably (wrongfully) assumed that I only play Terran. I know every race's lategame very much in depth. Tempest + templar right now is the god composition for Protoss. It beats essentially everything Zerg can throw at it, as well as everything from Terran mech, and in PvP it is also the end-game unit composition that Protoss now aims for. Also from the ZvP's I've played in beta I do not think Zerg has an answer to this unit composition, because hydras are still pretty bad, and the only other option is to make obscene amounts of corruptors which don't even trade well with mass tempest + templar and the protoss remaxes on ground (similar situation with tempests vs Terran mech + vikings, vikings don't trade well, Protoss remaxes on ground). I've played games where I've made 40 corruptors, and still had trouble trading well against tempest + templar + other units as well in the protoss deathball. I've also played the other side, PvZ, where Zergs have tried mass infestors for infested Terrans, mass corruptors, mass hydras, vipers, etc. and they've thrown it at my tempest + templar and barely even dented into it, or they trade so cost inefficiently that i just warp in 25 zealots/archons and kill them afterwards with multiple warp prisms on the map. I am not theorycrafting here, I'm telling you from play experience in every match-up, PvP/PvT/PvZ. A lot of people have the misconception that tempests are not good, but they're borderline OP at this point in time. + Show Spoiler +p.s. Don't make me write a guide about this damnit! :D i'm almost tempted to write up a guide on tempest + templar and how to abuse it right now. Dun get me angry! When I get angry i write strategy guides damnit! Yes, Tempest+Templar is good. However, both techs aren't particularly good early on. So it's different than Broodlord+Infestor. Infestors are amazing against Protoss whereas Templar are poor to decent against Zerg. Broodlords come from Corruptors which beat very important Protoss tech. Tempest don't really counter anything. 40 Corruptors is an obscene amount of gas to be throwing at units that are the worst DPS per supply units in the game. Also, mass infested Terrans is bad against Storm. So are mass Hydras. And I don't even know what you were planning on trying to achieve with mass Vipers. Obviously, mass Corruptors are bad against storm too. The answer is mass roach, go, go, go with a transition into Corruptors after beating down the ground army. The point is to crush the ground, stop Tempest/Templar production, and slow roll into a superior force of Corruptors where you transition into Broodlords, if necessary. Now if you are telling me, they went Sentry, Immortal, High Templar, Tempest.... well, I really don't know what to tell you. But the problem with Broodlord+Infestor is not just that it's an amazing late game composition, but that it is probably the most natural thing to transition from and into. If you can transition into a late game High Templar+Tempest composition, you deserve to win. The game doesn't work like that. You're acting like Protoss is not building collosus or other things. Tempest + templar is quite easy to get once the game gets to a certain point (usually 3-4 base). You're not going straight tempest + templar, you play standard blink stalker/collosus/sentry etc. and later on transition into it. Nothing beats it right now. And no, you don't deserve to win if you can transition into high templar + tempest because it's easy to do. If you really have that mentality, I guess you'll be fine with Protoss winning every game lmao :D Here are a few games I just played today, have a look. And btw, regardless of perceived skill, imagine once all progamers know to use this composition (most know about it already) and "get there." That's when the problem is, because there's no answer to it. PvZ: Standard PvZ into tempests + templar with mass archons. I take damage here and there, but once I have the god composition it's impossible to lose with good micro. http://drop.sc/278414PvZ: Standard PvZ again into tempests + templar, once again, no answer to this. http://drop.sc/278415PvZ: Same thing http://drop.sc/278416I barely even utilized the mothership in the above replays as well, so I could have played a tiny bit better. Perhaps you thought I was only "theorycrafting" maybe seeing is believing? I have not lost a PvZ yet when it gets to this stage, and I have a suspicion other Protosses that are doing this are having a lot of trouble losing when it gets to this point too.
Not a single zerg took advantage of your greedy teching that game. One game you open 2 stargate, get one oracle, then go into triple robo colossus, all while taking a fast third and getting templar with storm too. I have feeling that any heavy zerg aggression that keeps you on 3 bases will destroy this. You were ridiculously greedy and the zergs just sat on their asses and assumed their imba brood infestor would win the game for them. This composition beats brood infestor + sitting back with 7000 spines, which it is suppose to. Zergs have to start making stuff happen instead of just camping behind spines and an unbeatable army, the tempest accomplishes this.
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