Change the attacking mode to two parallel beams moving away from the Colossus with the same attacking properties as the Lurker (ie dodgable). That would:
A - reduce the power of the colossus in head to head engagements B - allow for some clever range increasing micro with the Colossus C - force protoss players to flank armies that are in a concave D - allow protoss players to deal with so called "deathballs" with a little more ease than they do currently E - increase the direct damage output of the colossus without making it overpowered# F - allow for subtle ground unit micro to deal with the colossus
No need to do anything else. It'd also make colossus wars far more interesting (with people microing their colossi so you don't engage at point blank) and also engaging (imagine long range colossi dodging each others beams).
Very subtle change, but one that would keep the ideal of the unit but make it far more interesting to use, position and play against.
On November 05 2012 18:29 GorGor wrote: How about just remove the broken colossus just like the warhound?
Because unlike the warhound the colossus actually fills a rather important role and no protoss player would ever be able to play a macro game in PvZ without it. It needs to be either replaced, reworked, or left the fuck alone, not removed entirely.
On November 05 2012 18:05 Evangelist wrote: Change the attacking mode to two parallel beams moving away from the Colossus with the same attacking properties as the Lurker (ie dodgable). That would:
A - reduce the power of the colossus in head to head engagements B - allow for some clever range increasing micro with the Colossus C - force protoss players to flank armies that are in a concave D - allow protoss players to deal with so called "deathballs" with a little more ease than they do currently E - increase the direct damage output of the colossus without making it overpowered# F - allow for subtle ground unit micro to deal with the colossus
No need to do anything else. It'd also make colossus wars far more interesting (with people microing their colossi so you don't engage at point blank) and also engaging (imagine long range colossi dodging each others beams).
Very subtle change, but one that would keep the ideal of the unit but make it far more interesting to use, position and play against.
This is by far the best thing that could happen to the game. Also it should be stronger attacks and the collossus should be slower... God, just thinking of this idea makes me feel good
What makes deathballs so desirable is the lack of game changing AOE and the lack of overkill. For example, baneling vs marine requires you to spread out and makes for some of the more interesting engagements. Overkill requires you to spread out tanks/collosus for maximum damage and allows for a higher base damage. Zerg kind of lack a solid non-fungal splash unit like the lurker.
On November 05 2012 08:05 Freeborn wrote: Ok one question, does any race besides protoss have deathballs?
I think only to a lesser degree. Second question why do protoss use deathballs?
Simple answer: because protoss units by themselves suck, especially gateway units. And of course because collossi can walk on top of the smaller units. To be able to make protoss units worth their money, protoss has to use FF and collossi to maximise AoE damage while restricting attack surface area.
My real hope for HotS is that Forcefield is removed/nerfed and gateway units are strengthened to be able to fight without ALWAYS having to go for collossus. I would be fine with a warpgate nerf as well. It's just super boring to always rush for collossus and always set perfect forcefields or die. It's even boring to watch. If small groups of protoss units would have a chance of survival you would see them more often. As it is they lose vs barracks units and i most cases vs speedlings AND they can NEVER retreat. Thats the main reason why no protoss ever ventures out in smaller groups. If you are outmatched you are dead.
And the stupid mothership core does not really help since you can have only one it supports the notion of one big army. So fucking boring. The Deathball is a symptom not a problem. Ask yourself : why do people use deathballs and then solve the underlying problems...
Zerg has a deathball, Terran has a deathball (if they go air that is). Thing about the toss deathball is that colossi stack on top of other ground units, so you get the effect of air units without actually having to go air.
On November 05 2012 08:05 Freeborn wrote: Ok one question, does any race besides protoss have deathballs?
This really depends upon your definition of "deathball". Some people cling too much to the "ball" part of it and expect a round shape of the army to be important and then you more or less limit that to Protoss only. If you dont cling to that term too much however every "all fighting units are in one big clump"-army is a deathball. Terran bio is a deathball just as Roach or ling/bling is and Infestors certainly travel in one big clump over the map.
Thus the term should be seen more as "all fighting units act together" definition as opposed to drop harrassment or positional siege play for example, which has the units spread all over the map.
On November 05 2012 08:05 Freeborn wrote: The Deathball is a symptom not a problem. Ask yourself : why do people use deathballs and then solve the underlying problems...
Yep, the "all in one army" is definetely a symptom and fixing it is rather easy. 1. The clumping and auto-tight movement mechanics allow it or more precisely FORCE IT. 2. The unit selection mechanics allow it. 3. There is NO PENALTY because AoE has been nerfed to be only slightly irritating instead of threatening.
"Deathball is a symptom" is a very good analysis and the solution to the problem is relatively easy to see, but sadly Blizzard doesnt seem to get it.
On November 05 2012 18:59 Glockateer wrote: What makes deathballs so desirable is the lack of game changing AOE and the lack of overkill. For example, baneling vs marine requires you to spread out and makes for some of the more interesting engagements. Overkill requires you to spread out tanks/collosus for maximum damage and allows for a higher base damage. Zerg kind of lack a solid non-fungal splash unit like the lurker.
On November 05 2012 19:32 Qikz wrote: The big thing with collosus is they shouldn't be able to stand over the army.
In BW the units ALL moved kinda clunky and the important part was being able to micro well enough to maximize the efficiency. You had the time to do it too, because there werent that many units on the battlefield (screen) to control.
In SC2 that all changes and units have "perfect" movement patterns without any clunkiness. Thus the intrinsic mobility of the units has become a prime reason why certain units are good and others arent. The amount of micro shifted from controlling a single or a few units to moving tight clumps of them. The Colossus excels due to its design concept of standing / walking in the middle of a bunch of guarding "infantry" and its ability to cliffwalk. The efficiency of that unit stands and falls with the deathball (tight unit formation) and lack of punishment for clumping your units. Fix that and the Colossus ceases to be such a huge problem.
Cute idea but this would be an insane nerf to the colossus. The low damage it already does to bulkier units would become next to nothing due to the overlapping streams, and certain areas where colossus can't get a good surround would be a guaranteed win for the other player. I think it would be too hard to balance.
On November 05 2012 05:42 singularity14 wrote: Most people (including Blizzard) agree gameplay involving deathballs is undesirable. The main reason why deathballs are favored for protoss is to strengthen the collosus (stalkers are in the deathball to protect collosus against anti-air, zealots and archons are in the deathball to tank damage).
So, why not split up the deathball by splitting up the individual collosus?
For example, make it so the collosus lasers cannot stack (of course buff damage accordingly). This will both force players to spread out their collosus + make fewer collosus as at some point there will be nothing to be gained from more collosus. This may also make players create multiple small armies with each small army having its own set of collosus for support. What do you guys think?
not a bad idea, but if they don't stack they will be terrible (single target DPS is actually quite low). and if they don't need to stack then they will be way too powerful.
Colossus should mimmik the reaver from sc1. The colossus should have a reticule point at its target a second before it fires at that spot, giving the other player a chance to micro away. In return the damage should be increased. This will make the unit a high risk high reward type, like the reavers. You can load up a single colossus and do worker harass, do drop micro and 1 shot workers. This micro against colossus can only be feasible if the colossus numbers are low. A single marine should be able to take down a colossus if micro'ed to perfection.
As a terran, instead of looking at colossus and instantly going for viking, a bold player with extremely good micro should be about to control his army and take down colossus (in small numbers). I wish someone would make a mod for this for video demonstration. Micro would be something like dodging storms.
Also, toss players will have to micro their colossus to hit the best targets or immobile targets (like seige tanks against banelings).
The problem is that there is no need of skill required to use this unit.
Based on the ideas people are throwing up I'm just going to post this video by InR01. Some of you might have seen this already, it's made the rounds in the forums before. One thing I'd change to make it a bit more interesting is to have the bombs be loaded like the Reaver (but free). If you constantly have it attack then after an initial burst of 4 it would go down to 1 bomb at a time, but if you wait a few seconds (longer than the actual attack cooldown) it would store up to an additional 3 bombs giving it a high amount of burst damage.
Hmmm... This seems like a good change to me. Just making it so a unit can't be hit by multiple colossus shots overlapping... It could really help, especially in PvP.
not entirely accurate, the death ball does not solely rest on the colossus. If you remove that unit the death ball will still appear game after game, A major fix is to cap the number of select-able units in a group however the game is so far along the public wont allow it,
Trying to stop the deathball by artifically limiting player options (nerfing unit selection) is bad design through and through, and more imporantly it really wouldn't stop things. The way Protoss works is that they are more powerful together than apart, the deathball is just the best way for a Protoss to do damage. Same applies to BL/Infestor, or the bioball. The power of these compositions is so great that a player is disincentivized to split their army unless its for some strategy (i.e. multi drop against an opponent with a superior army). You need to both encourage players to split their army and make it so that doing so doesn't neuter their ability to actually do damage.
One thing I also would like to note is that if you make it so players want to spread their Colossi out into different groups, that might actually encourage the opponent to deathball up and attack with their whole army, forcing all the colossi to come together. Maybe not though, cause if one player spreads out their units across the map the other probably has to as well.
On November 06 2012 11:35 xPrimuSx wrote: Based on the ideas people are throwing up I'm just going to post this video by InR01. Some of you might have seen this already, it's made the rounds in the forums before. One thing I'd change to make it a bit more interesting is to have the bombs be loaded like the Reaver (but free). If you constantly have it attack then after an initial burst of 4 it would go down to 1 bomb at a time, but if you wait a few seconds (longer than the actual attack cooldown) it would store up to an additional 3 bombs giving it a high amount of burst damage. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poXELaHhqnE
Even the effect itself (it being not as "instant") makes it already look much more fun. I like this idea!
EPT
