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On October 27 2012 16:46 ZeromuS wrote:
Time warp is really going to help a lot vs Mutalisks as well. Part of the problem in dealing with mutas PvZ is their speed and mobility and the fact that its very hard to land a really good storm. So time warp - storm or blink under will be spectacular if a protoss can land it well in PvZ.
Mass mutas will still be hard but with good play not AS hard to deal with.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't affect air units. Toss versus mass mutas is a joke, though. No idea why the upgrade for phoenixes has to be on the fleet beacon. And, even if it weren't, corrupters have the same range as upgraded phoenixes. What wins that battle? So if they have mutas and corrupters, what does it solve? It's obviously still a problem, but since everyone learned to go infestors, as most people view that as more OP, blizzard gets to forget about what they set out to solve and act like they did jack shit. W/e. So much qq over time warp from terran players. It could be worse, it could be fungal... Even if toss has more aoe, it could just be another templar. GL dodging spam storm, and it's not like you guys would be microing your ghosts anyways.
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Its already so damn hard to play TvP lategame, near impossible unless you have Mvp or Taeja micro. I dont see timewarp being added for the right reasons. Not even the most hardcore protoss lobbyist can say that protoss is struggling late game vs T.
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I haven't seen timewarp yet, so I will not beforehand say it is a bad idea, although it looks to be problematic, especially because it looks to be another micro remover: just stop moving and die to storms.
However what mainly gets me confused is that apparently it is seen by many people as something positive that oracles now have a strong role with the main army. I thought that was exactly the opposite from what we wanted, another unit to increase the toss deathball power.
Btw it looks to me also like it is even more mandatory to have strong ait to air against toss, since otherwise they could simply move their army around your army and timewarp your army continiously.
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50% Slows + Storm will shred any terran bio armies...
and 3.5 radius seems like a little bit too much.
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On October 27 2012 16:58 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 16:47 aZealot wrote:On October 27 2012 13:12 Dvriel wrote:On October 27 2012 12:55 aZealot wrote:On October 27 2012 11:57 Dvriel wrote:On October 27 2012 11:20 vthree wrote:On October 27 2012 10:13 aZealot wrote:On October 27 2012 10:06 s3rp wrote:On October 27 2012 10:00 aZealot wrote:On October 27 2012 09:51 s3rp wrote:
[quote]
Terran needs BIG changes so they can actually use higher tech units . The investment for BC's , Ravens hell even Thors ( in TvP ) is huge . The payoff ? Not so much. And now with so many new options on Zerg on Toss side your still suck with playing lowtech armies against high tech shit because you don't have any lategame options to tech to that don't take years to get to. I can't pretend to knowing too much about Terran, but big changes? Would not a Tank buff (say damage) and a Thor buff (remove energy and strike cannon) be sufficient? Sure, it's not sexy, but Terran apart from a few minor holes is a complete race. I don't think anyone has ever seriously suggested that they absolutely need major new units and abilities. No? I can understand Terran player's pov, though. It does suck seeing candy distributed to P and Z with T at the back of the line. From a Protoss perspective though, Protoss in WOL has always been limited, IMO. Powerful but limited. If these HoTS developments continue, I think we will see an explosion of creativity from Protoss players which will help all P match-ups. Heck, Gateway units, Robo, Stargate, FF, Timewarp, Warpgates, Templars, Mamaship. What's not to love as P?  Terran is NOT complete in HotS. They have useless high tech . Most of the issues that limited the other races have been well changed in HotS so far. Terran not so much. There still no endgame army to tech to that doesn't need 4+Bases + lightyears of time. BC's are still way too bad for what the cost . Ravens again are very meh and need years of setup time before becoming effective. Ghosts are only a niche unit ( so are Reapers ) . They also still have at least 3 useless upgrades. The units nobody used in WoL will still not be used in HotS without changes. I did not say there were complete in HoTS. Only that they were the most complete race in WOL and thus requiring the least attention. (DB said as much in an interview a few months ago.) Tbh, I don't see Terran needing major changes other than buffs to some of their higher tech. Ghosts need to be looked at though, I agree. I did not life the Ghost nerf, btw. Give it time, mate. The beta has been stated to be a months long process. Positive changes to Terran will come. Maybe you should just be happy for your P and Z brothers until that time comes? We will then rejoice with you. I would say that terrans is the most complete race up to tier 2. Their late game units are pretty bleh and their production just cannot keep up with the other 2 races in the late game. Having some core units spread into 3 upgrade path also hurts (bio, mech, air). There is the big issue for Terran in SC2: production.We still use the BW way, while Protoss have evolved to WARP and Zerg to Spawn Larvae.I agree its the most complete race,but only to tier 2.Later it becomes a nightmare.30 mins to make Ravens usefull and no limit to make BCs. Not only this,but as you said Upgrades research is another handicap.One for BIO,one for Ground and another for AIR.Carapace affect both Range and Melee Zergs.But they got Air,same as P and T.Protoss upgrades Gate and Robo units at same time.WHY???The Zerg caparace is understandable for every unit,but why Robo and Gate Units share upgrades?A stalker is a robotic unit,so as Immortal,sentry and Colossus,so it make sense,but then why Zealots share upgrads with them?A Marauder is almost robotic unit.Its a Suit,same as Iron Man,so why cant Tank and Marauder upgrades be the same? Huh? What are you on about? Marines, probably the best all-around unit in the game, are built 2 at a time from Reactors. Same with Hellions, Medivacs, Vikings etc. All races have production boosts in their own respective ways. The only issue, from a Terran perspective, is Protoss warpgate when 200/200 and Zerg production capacity with Larvae Inject. Even then, Protoss WG only affects GW units and the Zealot remax from WOL is being countered with the addition of the Hellbat so that you hardly see Zealot heavy armies in HotS PvT anymore. (Unlike Zerg we don't get to warp our Robo and SG units.) Secondly, Protoss upgrades have always been that way from SC1 onwards. Remember that Protoss defensive upgrades are shared between armour and shields. Shield upgrades are expensive (as they affect buildings too) and are rarely used in active PvX play due to their heavy costs. You usually only see them in the very late game, and when Protoss can afford them. This is why the basic Protoss ground army shares upgrades. It is also because Protoss armies are always synergistic and usually involve a mix of Robo and GW units. We can't go just GW or just Robo. Two upgrade paths on top of expensive units, expensive structures, and with the armour/shield divergence would be unaffordable and ineffective for any Protoss player. I can get why you are peeved off. But your opinion here is just wrong. Well,I was only thinking in Late Game.If you lose your army the best race on remaxing is the Zerg,then Protoss and then Terran.Marines use reactor,but it doesnt send them exactly where you wish on the opposit corner of the map,no?Its not only a issue,is a BIG ISSUE when the final battle is on.No matter if you got 4000mins and P 1000,he just remax so quick that you lose. You are right.Protoss cant separate upgrades,but you still can go only GW units.Zealot,Sentry,Stalker into HT/Archons is totally possible and win lot of games.There is no strong need of Colossi or Immortals in every PvT.But let me ask you: How do T play vs Z?Bio upgrades+Tank or Viking Attack upgrades.Tanks for banelings and Vikings for BLs.Why cant Protoss do the same?If you wanna go Colossi in TvP go and research Attack upgrades in the Roboforge,because is almost the only Robo unit you will use in this MU.I wish to see TvP in WoL with Colossus without upgrades supporting the GW units.It will be the same as the tank for Terran,dont you think? Terran can go Mech in TvZ,but only BIO is pretty hard because of infestors. Yes, Protoss can. But every race has unique features that make it what it is in SC2. Tbh, I really don't see this as a major issue. We've had 2 years and more of WOL and it's not broken the match-up by any means. And now in HotS you have a unit that counters Zealots hard. It's difficult to really talk about this in any depth as what we are doing here is trying to analyse HotS beta by way of referring to our experience in WOL. This is hard to do because as the beta runs its course and HotS is released a whole new meta will arise and change as players explore the game (and Blizzard patches). Gateway into Archon/HT is possible but is not a staple of Protoss play (for one thing, it is hard countered by Ghosts and is ineffective against Roach heavy armies). It is used sometimes depending on the MU but has usually got to be transitioned into the more standard Protoss composition which involves all the Protoss army. As for the Immortal and Colossus, these are needed not just in PvT but also in other P match-ups, no? More to the point, they are almost always needed. In no match up can a Protoss consistently put just a Gateway army onto the field, or just a Robo army into the field (unless I am playing 4v4 and go Robo+Colossus). And that is fine. Every race has strengths. Every race has weaknesses. Every race has constraints. As to TvZ, I can't say mate. Again, referring to TvZ in WOL, I hope Terran continue to adapt and explore their race and to find solutions to their problems. (If anything, a nerf to Zerg may be required.) I don't believe looking at upgrades is the way to go though. That would be the easy "fix" (maybe) and require little innovation from Terran players. Small buffs to Terran high tech (+ ghost?) may be the nudge required, but anything more takes the satisfaction out of figuring problems in SC2. That's bad. But, again, it's hard to see what any of this means with respect to HotS as it is too early to tell. This patch, here, is only the first day of, IIRC, the 4th or 5th patch of the Beta? With many months to go before release probably somewhere in the middle of 2013. Then the real discovery process of the game will begin again for all races. (And unlike last time, I hope Blizzard aren't trigger happy with the balance patches and let the players sort shit out themselves.) It is hard to not be trigger happy when there are so many Competitive tournaments being played. Take the ghost nerf. Lets assume they did not nerf snipe and EMP. Could you know how long before Z and P to 'sort it out'. Does Blizzard wait 6 months and all the tournaments are won by Terran with ghosts?
Short answer, yes. I think one reason why we got so many balance patches in the first year of WOL was that, it seems, that the beta process was similar to this one (which is one thing that has me a little worried about the first year of HotS). And also because of the storm of whining from every race for Blizzard to fix various "issues". Now, some of those issues may have been valid, but it's likely that a good many were not. As a result a lot of vitality and dynamism was sucked out of WOL.
I'd hate to see the same for HotS. In the end we all want a good and fun game. The two are not mutually exclusive.
Edit/ Right, time for an early night. I'm running a half marathon at 7am tomorrow morning.
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Protoss air lacks definition. Compare void ray pre nerf with the oracle now. A new capital sheep that has gotten more tweaking than another that has been in the game for 2+ years.
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time warp is gorgeous.
It will be nerfed but what impressed me most is its duraation. unlike storm or fungal or emp or anyother spell, it does not last as long as a combat or less. It just stays there!
Which is the best part about it I say. it can assist a combat in very inderect ways. it has a lasting, zone manupilating effect (I dont wanna say area denial or control). not instant, not huge, but a cumulative one.
I hope when they nerf it, they nerf its snare amount, or radious not its duration.
also, I think it would be much more fun, and balanced to have it a sphrical shape as a size reduction. with long radia in axis with oracle.
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On October 27 2012 10:28 -Kyo- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 10:25 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On October 27 2012 09:56 -Kyo- wrote:
What in the F?????? Still no change to the widow mine? Who the hell is balancing this game? Jesus christ lmao.
To be rational about it:
Change Mine supply to 1
Build time cut by 1/4
Mine is destroyed when activated
Mine no longer targets air units
??? Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. It's just WAY too strong right now. I seriously have no idea how it has survived 3 patches now. Mine's are easy to deal with as the game goes on. They can be scary early game if you screw up, but that's part of their power. They buy Terran time to get their infrastructure up and running so they can compete in the later parts of the game. What? lol They get more broken as the game goes on because they trade so cost effectively for gas heavy units. I'm not sure what game you're playing. Lol.
He's playing the beta, you obviously aren't. He's correct in his assessment that the mines are what allow mech TvP to get running, and as the game goes into lategame you do not want more than 10 supply worth of mines on the map.
Mines in HOTS allow Terran to pour vespene gas into factory and armory infrastructure without flat out dying to: DTS, void rays, blink stalkers so easily like in wings of liberty.
You'll notice wings of liberty mech requires you to do crazy shit, like always make a starport, always need a raven, always need siege mode/tanks meaning you can never move out on the map, etc. When you're pouring 100 gas into a starport, 200 gas into a raven to protect vs DTS, 100 gas into an armory, 75 gas into vikings as the only realistic AA option...that's over 400-500 vespene gas dedicated to simply not dying to random all-ins and various things.
What the widow mine does in HOTS is give Terran users a reliable way to pour all of that wings of liberty vespene gas into factories, allowing more possibilities for mech play in the match-up.
As the game goes into the later stages, the mines become progressively weaker to the point where you want basically want no more than 4-5 mines on the map because they take away from your army value. Mines cannot fight against a lategame Protoss deathball of tempests + anything effectively.
The problem now is the same problem that exists in wings of liberty for Terran - there is no mech anti-air option. Right now the only real option is "make a lot of vikings," which is a catch-22 because zerg and protoss ground units absolutely kill grounded vikings meaning in the scenario you kill the opponent's air, you're left with a bad army that dies to the ground remax, or the situation where your vikings die to their air + storms/fungals...you simply die.
Sorry for the long post, just had to debunk your sensationalist bullshit about the mine being good lategame and OP with a logical post.
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This game is getting better an better.
Great changes! I also like the attention to details (with the crawler changes.)
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Italy12246 Posts
Keep in mind it's going to be really hard if not impossible for P to afford both Colossi and Oracles along with Templar until a ridicolous number of bases (like 4-5), so i'm not particularly concerned about PvT.
Also i wonder if the spine crawler change does anything about pre-hive timings in PvZ, since it should be harder for Z units to move around spines now....
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This rag rug will never end in a balanced game.
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I quite like the time warp spell, but why would you enhance the power of a deathball if you want move away from that? After all, you would only lure a death ball in to hit with time warps if you already have a sizeable deathball of your own... Rather than asking for a removal, I rather want "what do you give to the other two races to lessen the impact (soft counter)"?
Since the radius is as big as a vortex, I might as well ask for EMP to be that big as well (reduce energy/shield hit to 25 so at least 2 shots for zealot) as at that size protoss would be discouraged for the ball, and let Zerg's locust be uneffected (sac them for duration of the spell as a meat wall) so the ball would take longer to hit the zerg allowing them to walk out a bit.
This suggestion is ridiculous but the first point stands - what do you give to the other two to increase dynamics?
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Over all, really nice changes. Maybe energize could be reinstated now, with the reason for its removal gone?
On October 27 2012 09:55 Noocta wrote:
Well.. 100 energy Hunter seeker and 10 AtG damage BCs was getting me pretty exited at the beginning of beta.
Then it got "fixed" because apparently Dustin Browder announce changes that are effectively bugs.
=(
To be honest it feels like those were intentional but blizzard realized that they needed to hold off with the WoL unit changes until they were done with the HotS units. Think of it. No other WoL units have been adressed yet. I think these "bugs", along with other wol unit changes, will be altered again.
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On October 27 2012 17:18 wangstra wrote:
Protoss air lacks definition. Compare void ray pre nerf with the oracle now. A new capital sheep that has gotten more tweaking than another that has been in the game for 2+ years.
Exactly, now the first spell is similar to voidray (rather fix that) and second one is similar to sentry (create/hold position purposes).
If there has to be a "beam spell", let it do something with energy, like Siphon Mana in WarCraft III: "Transfers mana between the Blood Mage and a target. Drains mana from an enemy, or transfers mana to an ally. Siphon Mana can push the Blood Mage's mana over its maximum value, though excess mana drains off rapidly if not used." This can be balanced just by changing numbers, but i don't know how much it would be imba in StarCraft II. :D
Second and third spells could be something like Sase suggested:
- cloak targeted building for a while to prevent nexus sniping by terran and so on (or make armor/shields higher or whatever)
- dispell vs summoned units could be cool too (broodlings, infested terrans)
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On October 27 2012 18:51 cheative wrote:
I quite like the time warp spell, but why would you enhance the power of a deathball if you want move away from that? After all, you would only lure a death ball in to hit with time warps if you already have a sizeable deathball of your own... Rather than asking for a removal, I rather want "what do you give to the other two races to lessen the impact (soft counter)"?
Since the radius is as big as a vortex, I might as well ask for EMP to be that big as well (reduce energy/shield hit to 25 so at least 2 shots for zealot) as at that size protoss would be discouraged for the ball, and let Zerg's locust be uneffected (sac them for duration of the spell as a meat wall) so the ball would take longer to hit the zerg allowing them to walk out a bit.
This suggestion is ridiculous but the first point stands - what do you give to the other two to increase dynamics?
I think Blizzard attempted to use 'harass' units that didn't go well with the deathball, in Protoss' case, not even having combat abilities. The issue with this is that we are required to invest in units that won't really help us survive against e.g. a timing push. All the other races' harass units have some sort of role in their deathball, either in the midgame or the lategame. E.g. medivac marines, are still a staple part of the Terran army, and can be flexible in the way that they can be used in almost all situations. Same applies for zerglings and infestors, and definately mutalisks.
Building 'pure' harass units doesn't only mean that the unit has to make an economical damage that equals the cost (like 150/150 for an oracle), but it also has to make up for the lost dynamics of another unit that could've been build in the same time, like the cost of a colossus (not saying that one oracle would equate to colossi, but it certainly would delay colossus tech by 300/300 resources.).
As for the dynamics question, I think the game already lends itself to decrease the efficiency of oracles in the lategame. Lategame isn't about mobility as much as it is about 'edging' out the opponents casters. You don't need to kite in TvP if you do your engagement correctly (given you have the optimal army). Same applies for PvZ lategame, it doesn't matter if you're slowing him down, unless your opponent does something increadibly stupid, you're not going to run into fungals and broodlings. I'm not as sure how it would work out in the midgame, but I think Time-Warp would just make players opt for more mobility, which would force the protoss to split up his army, hence, decreasing the efficiency of Time-warp and protoss midgame deathball in general. Regardless, I think players will have to adapt to fit the game better. Most likely, you're not going to be able to play in the exact same way as you've done before, when there is new units coming in. Luckily, Bio is so flexible and dynamic on its own, that I think that it'll still be a really efficient playstyle regardless of these new changes.
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Awesome changes for protoss, but stuff will surely be nerfed, so yeah... enjoy imba while you can. :D
Edit: I mean Oracle's slower movement spell. The other one is still useless.
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wow buffs for improvements for every race but zerg got a lot Still no Hots acces but are they that weak?
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On October 27 2012 19:26 SirisH wrote:wow buffs for improvements for every race but zerg got a lot Still no Hots acces but are they that weak?
I'd not say zerg is weak in ZvP, but I only have 80 games and I'm still unranked. If anyone has figured out good strategies for protoss in HotS, could you please PM me? Thx
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At 30 seconds duration AND a radius of 3,5 Time Warp is probably pretty OP. I havent seen it in action yet, but you probably can cast it preemptively and have enough for the whole battle ... and with that radius you dont need to spam it either like Forcefield. Since the Oracle is a flying unit you can also cast it behind your enemy army and prevent them from getting away ...
In most team games with different classes and units there are always "multiplier" classes/units which increase the efficiency of the other classes/units. The current version of the Oracle and Time Warp is just such a multiplier and it is worse than Fungal Growth and Forcefield IMO.
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The Oracle is pretty fine now, I think honestly it's just that Terran needs some love to properly deal with it. Though we also have to see it unfold a bit first.
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EPT
