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On October 27 2012 13:52 Tamburlaine wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 13:03 awesomoecalypse wrote:
Pulsar Beam is the same dps vs buildings as charged Void Rays...except coming from a unit that is faster, cheaper, and requires no charging up. Also far more fragile, has slightly less range, relies on energy to attack, and can't defend itself. I'm not totally sold on it. But I don't hate it.
my first thought was 'move VR to fleet beacon tech, make it stronger', but that might be disastrously powerful and/or interfere with the carrier establishing a role for itself. plus it would be a shame to lose the threat of a void ray cheese... i know no one uses that anymore, but just the fact that it existed keeps players from cutting some corners. honestly dunno what to do about this. maybe give it another, super powerful charge (i think it only has two now despite the animation, right?) that takes a long time to charge, but then that only makes it a threat to buildings, no way a skirmish or large battle lasts long enough for that to matter, and we're back to the oracle doing the same job.
hmm, i see why this is frustrating. perhaps an upgrade of some sort at the fleet beacon or dark shrine, that chains more charges? just brainstorming. probably shouldn't increase range at least. honestly it seems like the tempest is a better alternative now or at least more flexible.
as for pulsar beam, whatever, it's better than the dinky spell it replaced, for what that's worth. mostly i'm just glad entomb is gone.
honestly it's almost like the oracle and tempest together flat out replace the void ray. crossing fingers for a LotV redesign i guess.
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Canada13430 Posts
Ok guys let me blow your mind:
The pulsar beam can be channeled at a range of 6 (maybe 6.5 need more testing) if you micro it correctly.
It casts at 5 range but can be channeled at 6 range. This should not be changed. It is fantastic.
Also, if you micro it incorrectly the oracle Channels at 3 range if you cast from full speed (I.E. Shift Queue)
The oracle has some serious serious micro potential for the pulsar beam. It is FANTASTIC
Is there any screen cap stuff someone would like to recommend so I can make a video? Until then Off I go to collect screen shots.
You will be blown away with how awesome this unit truly is.
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On October 27 2012 14:19 ZeromuS wrote:
Ok guys let me blow your mind:
The pulsar beam can be channeled at a range of 6 (maybe 6.5 need more testing) if you micro it correctly.
It casts at 5 range but can be channeled at 6 range. This should not be changed. It is fantastic.
Also, if you micro it incorrectly the oracle Channels at 3 range if you cast from full speed (I.E. Shift Queue)
The oracle has some serious serious micro potential for the pulsar beam. It is FANTASTIC
Is there any screen cap stuff someone would like to recommend so I can make a video? Until then Off I go to collect screen shots.
You will be blown away with how awesome this unit truly is.
Shouldn't have said anything. Now Blizzard will "fix" it.
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Canada13430 Posts
On October 27 2012 14:22 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 14:19 ZeromuS wrote:
Ok guys let me blow your mind:
The pulsar beam can be channeled at a range of 6 (maybe 6.5 need more testing) if you micro it correctly.
It casts at 5 range but can be channeled at 6 range. This should not be changed. It is fantastic.
Also, if you micro it incorrectly the oracle Channels at 3 range if you cast from full speed (I.E. Shift Queue)
The oracle has some serious serious micro potential for the pulsar beam. It is FANTASTIC
Is there any screen cap stuff someone would like to recommend so I can make a video? Until then Off I go to collect screen shots.
You will be blown away with how awesome this unit truly is. Shouldn't have said anything. Now Blizzard will "fix" it.
It took me 30 tries to get it to do the following:
BUT If you do it wrong then the oracle starts to channel but decelerates and "shuffles" out of range and the ability stops being cast. The ability also can NOT be on auto cast or must be manually casted to achieve this effect. AND you need to move in a small 45 degree angle in a kind of circle to force the oracle to face the building you want to hit BEFORE you cast it otherwise it just accelerates towards the building (at full speed -_-) and then channels and decel shuffles towards the building you are attacking into 4 or 5 range.
Note that the Marauder and marine were attack moved small bit by bit to get them to their outer ranges. I put the marine at 6 range to show it is indeed not 5 range.
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Damn, i got an error when after I installed. It was perfect timing too cause I refused to play until entomb was removed  Maybe I'll fix it tomorrow
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4713 Posts
I have no idea how people consider these changes good.
Time warp + any aoe will be the end of anything, but especially terran bio.
Time warp + FF to always land guaranteed and perfect FFs, also reduce the damage trapped units do to your army.
Time warp + storm to basically not even allow bio to split or bait.
Time warp + colossus and zealots to nullify bio ability to kite and guarantee huge splash.
I have no idea how they consider TW to be a good idea of a spell, bio already was having a hard time being cost effective against toss armies, now it will just flat out die. Mech will still be useless vs toss because tanks don't give proper zone control and are too easily countered by toss units and in addition mech now has to worry about tempests sniping from a distance.
BCs are now equally useless, they already had enough counters via feedbacks from HT, void-ray threats and potential archon toilet, now they also have to face a relatively fast unit that can kite them and kill them with ease.
Problem with TW, also, it can't be fixed in any way, if you reduce the radius too much it becomes nearly useless, if you reduce duration too much it just encouraged making more oracles and spamming the spell, and reducing the speed reduction too much will also tilt the balance of the spell too much.
Also a slow like this is ridiculous and stupid for a race that already has so much aoe, there is just no way TW can fit into this context, it just needs to go.
Pulsar beam seems kind of useless, any competent player should still have units in place to deny the harass. In all honesty entombed would have been a more interesting choice if it needed to target individual mineral patches and cost 25 energy per mineral patch, at least it would have taken more skill to use like that.
Viper worries me, I like the unit concept, its good and interesting, it does things no other unit does. However the synergy between Vipers and Infestors will be murderous, and I'm still appalled no one has pointed this out to Blizzard. Basically infestors root things in place while also damaging them, and viper reduces said units range to near 0, and with the units rooted in place, they can't escape the cloud.
Overall, I'm very worried with the direction Blizzard is going, it still feels like they have no clue what they are doing, just trowing ideas randomly out there without any thought as to the consequences of what these changes will do.
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On October 27 2012 14:50 Destructicon wrote:
I have no idea how people consider these changes good.
Time warp + any aoe will be the end of anything, but especially terran bio.
Time warp + FF to always land guaranteed and perfect FFs, also reduce the damage trapped units do to your army.
Time warp + storm to basically not even allow bio to split or bait.
Time warp + colossus and zealots to nullify bio ability to kite and guarantee huge splash.
I have no idea how they consider TW to be a good idea of a spell, bio already was having a hard time being cost effective against toss armies, now it will just flat out die. Mech will still be useless vs toss because tanks don't give proper zone control and are too easily countered by toss units and in addition mech now has to worry about tempests sniping from a distance.
BCs are now equally useless, they already had enough counters via feedbacks from HT, void-ray threats and potential archon toilet, now they also have to face a relatively fast unit that can kite them and kill them with ease.
Problem with TW, also, it can't be fixed in any way, if you reduce the radius too much it becomes nearly useless, if you reduce duration too much it just encouraged making more oracles and spamming the spell, and reducing the speed reduction too much will also tilt the balance of the spell too much.
Also a slow like this is ridiculous and stupid for a race that already has so much aoe, there is just no way TW can fit into this context, it just needs to go.
Pulsar beam seems kind of useless, any competent player should still have units in place to deny the harass. In all honesty entombed would have been a more interesting choice if it needed to target individual mineral patches and cost 25 energy per mineral patch, at least it would have taken more skill to use like that.
Viper worries me, I like the unit concept, its good and interesting, it does things no other unit does. However the synergy between Vipers and Infestors will be murderous, and I'm still appalled no one has pointed this out to Blizzard. Basically infestors root things in place while also damaging them, and viper reduces said units range to near 0, and with the units rooted in place, they can't escape the cloud.
Overall, I'm very worried with the direction Blizzard is going, it still feels like they have no clue what they are doing, just trowing ideas randomly out there without any thought as to the consequences of what these changes will do.
I don't see how it's "random" if all the changes are liked by the community. Maybe you don't like them for your reasons but is "random" the right word?
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Canada13430 Posts
On October 27 2012 14:50 Destructicon wrote:
I have no idea how people consider these changes good.
Time warp + any aoe will be the end of anything, but especially terran bio.
Time warp + FF to always land guaranteed and perfect FFs, also reduce the damage trapped units do to your army.
Time warp + storm to basically not even allow bio to split or bait.
Time warp + colossus and zealots to nullify bio ability to kite and guarantee huge splash.
I have no idea how they consider TW to be a good idea of a spell, bio already was having a hard time being cost effective against toss armies, now it will just flat out die. Mech will still be useless vs toss because tanks don't give proper zone control and are too easily countered by toss units and in addition mech now has to worry about tempests sniping from a distance.
BCs are now equally useless, they already had enough counters via feedbacks from HT, void-ray threats and potential archon toilet, now they also have to face a relatively fast unit that can kite them and kill them with ease.
Problem with TW, also, it can't be fixed in any way, if you reduce the radius too much it becomes nearly useless, if you reduce duration too much it just encouraged making more oracles and spamming the spell, and reducing the speed reduction too much will also tilt the balance of the spell too much.
Also a slow like this is ridiculous and stupid for a race that already has so much aoe, there is just no way TW can fit into this context, it just needs to go.
Pulsar beam seems kind of useless, any competent player should still have units in place to deny the harass. In all honesty entombed would have been a more interesting choice if it needed to target individual mineral patches and cost 25 energy per mineral patch, at least it would have taken more skill to use like that.
Viper worries me, I like the unit concept, its good and interesting, it does things no other unit does. However the synergy between Vipers and Infestors will be murderous, and I'm still appalled no one has pointed this out to Blizzard. Basically infestors root things in place while also damaging them, and viper reduces said units range to near 0, and with the units rooted in place, they can't escape the cloud.
Overall, I'm very worried with the direction Blizzard is going, it still feels like they have no clue what they are doing, just trowing ideas randomly out there without any thought as to the consequences of what these changes will do.
If you havent played with the new oracle I don't think you should be saying this. The unit is so much fun.
Time Warp and forcefield also don't work that well together.
The only problem with time warp IMO might be the fact it doesn't slow your own units down. Thats the problem. I assumed it would have the same effect but it doesn't.
Time warp has also made a BIG difference in how I deal with things like the swarm hosts. Locusts have a lot of dps but if their approach is slowed it lets me kill them more efficiently so I don't lose as much as I other wise would have. Speed roach all ins might also be easier to hold without mass forcefields.
I tried using forcefields to help against swarm hosts but the problem was that the locusts would stop I would kill a wave then another wave is there in full force. By slowing their approach or getting on top of the swarm hosts with the time warp I can close a lot more ground much quicker on the hosts making them easier to deal with. This will change when fungal is used more often with the hosts but as it is now timewarp is very helpful in a lot of scenarios especially vs Zerg.
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4713 Posts
I don't care if time warp is fun, its a broken spell given the context it is used in. Time warp + the race that has the most aoe and one of the most powerful zone control spells already is broken, and there is no way around it.
I also don't see why TW and FF can't work together, you slow units to make sure they can't escape or dance around the edge of FF range and then you FF them, you then aoe them down with either storm or colossus, and even with zealots and stalkers it is effective because TW doesn't slow your own units.
And yes, random is the right word, because it doesn't feel like Blizzard has an overall direction, or an overarching plan on where they want the races, or new units for each race to go. They also don't seem to be able to put two and two together to notice how overall broken some of the spell combinations can be.
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My god the changes to the Oracle are so much better than anything else they had done with it in the past. I truly TRULY hated the entomb ability and finally they have done something about it. There is hope yet.
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Canada13430 Posts
On October 27 2012 15:00 Destructicon wrote:
I don't care if time warp is fun, its a broken spell given the context it is used in. Time warp + the race that has the most aoe and one of the most powerful zone control spells already is broken, and there is no way around it.
I also don't see why TW and FF can't work together, you slow units to make sure they can't escape or dance around the edge of FF range and then you FF them, you then aoe them down with either storm or colossus, and even with zealots and stalkers it is effective because TW doesn't slow your own units.
And yes, random is the right word, because it doesn't feel like Blizzard has an overall direction, or an overarching plan on where they want the races, or new units for each race to go. They also don't seem to be able to put two and two together to notice how overall broken some of the spell combinations can be.
Because forcefields are next to useless when units have a 50% slow. The forcefield will hold them there under a slow and prevent your units from moving past them. If the units are slowed then the zealots can charge, kill then KEEP charging. Good forcefields are still better at ceratin points in the game but timewarp has much more utility.
Personally, I would be happy if Forcefields were gone or changed or cost more energy so that they become more of a defensive thing than an offensive thing.
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On October 27 2012 14:19 ZeromuS wrote:
Ok guys let me blow your mind:
The pulsar beam can be channeled at a range of 6 (maybe 6.5 need more testing) if you micro it correctly.
It casts at 5 range but can be channeled at 6 range. This should not be changed. It is fantastic.
Also, if you micro it incorrectly the oracle Channels at 3 range if you cast from full speed (I.E. Shift Queue)
The oracle has some serious serious micro potential for the pulsar beam. It is FANTASTIC
Is there any screen cap stuff someone would like to recommend so I can make a video? Until then Off I go to collect screen shots.
You will be blown away with how awesome this unit truly is.
Now we just need moving shot and it's a winning expansion.
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TBH I think people liked this update mostly because that piece of shit Entomb is gone.
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On October 27 2012 15:00 Destructicon wrote:
I don't care if time warp is fun, its a broken spell given the context it is used in. Time warp + the race that has the most aoe and one of the most powerful zone control spells already is broken, and there is no way around it.
I also don't see why TW and FF can't work together, you slow units to make sure they can't escape or dance around the edge of FF range and then you FF them, you then aoe them down with either storm or colossus, and even with zealots and stalkers it is effective because TW doesn't slow your own units.
And yes, random is the right word, because it doesn't feel like Blizzard has an overall direction, or an overarching plan on where they want the races, or new units for each race to go. They also don't seem to be able to put two and two together to notice how overall broken some of the spell combinations can be.
Wait so this wasn't a design QQ but a balance QQ -_-;;
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well yeah, of course. that and just protoss in general. blizzard clearly understands that when beta was released the new toss units all sucked badly and a lot of progress has been made on that front. this patch is sort of the culmination of their efforts to make protoss feel 'new' like zerg did when beta launched.
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Mobile 14 range detector plus tempest means dead swarm hosts.
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4713 Posts
On October 27 2012 15:12 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 15:00 Destructicon wrote:
I don't care if time warp is fun, its a broken spell given the context it is used in. Time warp + the race that has the most aoe and one of the most powerful zone control spells already is broken, and there is no way around it.
I also don't see why TW and FF can't work together, you slow units to make sure they can't escape or dance around the edge of FF range and then you FF them, you then aoe them down with either storm or colossus, and even with zealots and stalkers it is effective because TW doesn't slow your own units.
And yes, random is the right word, because it doesn't feel like Blizzard has an overall direction, or an overarching plan on where they want the races, or new units for each race to go. They also don't seem to be able to put two and two together to notice how overall broken some of the spell combinations can be. Wait so this wasn't a design QQ but a balance QQ -_-;;
It is a design issue, you can't give the race with the most aoe and a zone control spell another slow, it just won't work out well, again remember, bio barely trades well with protoss come the late game, with the slow from TW, bio won't be able to kite or split away from storms/zealots and will just die, simple clean and cut.
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The oracle now is a lot of fun, though it does leave the Void Ray at a really akward place. Perhaps it should get a cloak upgrade at the dark shrine which makes the void ray a cloaked unit like a dark templar.
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Canada13430 Posts
On October 27 2012 15:16 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 15:12 SarcasmMonster wrote:On October 27 2012 15:00 Destructicon wrote:
I don't care if time warp is fun, its a broken spell given the context it is used in. Time warp + the race that has the most aoe and one of the most powerful zone control spells already is broken, and there is no way around it.
I also don't see why TW and FF can't work together, you slow units to make sure they can't escape or dance around the edge of FF range and then you FF them, you then aoe them down with either storm or colossus, and even with zealots and stalkers it is effective because TW doesn't slow your own units.
And yes, random is the right word, because it doesn't feel like Blizzard has an overall direction, or an overarching plan on where they want the races, or new units for each race to go. They also don't seem to be able to put two and two together to notice how overall broken some of the spell combinations can be. Wait so this wasn't a design QQ but a balance QQ -_-;; It is a design issue, you can't give the race with the most aoe and a zone control spell another slow, it just won't work out well, again remember, bio barely trades well with protoss come the late game, with the slow from TW, bio won't be able to kite or split away from storms/zealots and will just die, simple clean and cut.
But they havent even gotten to balancing the WoL units.
Here is my checklist for Time Warp :
Is it cool? Yes
Is it fun? Yes
Is it useful? Yes
Blizz check list:
Does it Kill stuff? No
Does it break anything we can't fix? No
Congratulations its a good spell.
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On October 27 2012 15:18 Seiniyta wrote:
The oracle now is a lot of fun, though it does leave the Void Ray at a really akward place. Perhaps it should get a cloak upgrade at the dark shrine which makes the void ray a cloaked unit like a dark templar.
Cloaked void rays...apparently this unit needs to be cheesier in the bronze leagues...
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/9txUl)
