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Still dont see a Role for the Void Ray in SC2.And people still dont use CArriers..
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The changes are huge :D
I mean I played only one game before the changes but the oracle was super lame.
Now it's awesome, you can actually play 3 gate,1 stargate now and MAY be able to face stimmed bio without collossi psistorm.
And the pulsar beam is murderous. With 5 oracles you can keep the map free of expansions. But they die so fast that even a few air units will massacre them unless you care for them at all times.
The timewarp can finally help stopping harrassment from zerglings, and stimmed bio.
Sadly it cannot slow down medivacs 
still It's so nice to finally have a protoss unit that can dart in quickly and cause some pain  )
The mothership core still seems strange to me, but I never liked the mothership and the whole unique unit idea anyway...
Widow mines are a real killer as well - terrans have no reason to be pissed. You simply had too many units and abilities anyways.
Widow mines are so mean - they kill your observers if you are not extremely careful. It may be hard to balance all this stuff but it certainly makes for fun and more diverse gameplay.
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On October 27 2012 10:28 -Kyo- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 10:25 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On October 27 2012 09:56 -Kyo- wrote:
What in the F?????? Still no change to the widow mine? Who the hell is balancing this game? Jesus christ lmao.
To be rational about it:
Change Mine supply to 1
Build time cut by 1/4
Mine is destroyed when activated
Mine no longer targets air units
??? Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. It's just WAY too strong right now. I seriously have no idea how it has survived 3 patches now. Mine's are easy to deal with as the game goes on. They can be scary early game if you screw up, but that's part of their power. They buy Terran time to get their infrastructure up and running so they can compete in the later parts of the game. What? lol They get more broken as the game goes on because they trade so cost effectively for gas heavy units. I'm not sure what game you're playing. Lol.
If you are active on the map with cheap units you can clean them up easly, or use you know, a stalker and a obs. a roach and a overseer..
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I cant see the point of the Void Ray anymore...
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On October 27 2012 12:16 Tsuki.eu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 10:28 -Kyo- wrote:On October 27 2012 10:25 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On October 27 2012 09:56 -Kyo- wrote:
What in the F?????? Still no change to the widow mine? Who the hell is balancing this game? Jesus christ lmao.
To be rational about it:
Change Mine supply to 1
Build time cut by 1/4
Mine is destroyed when activated
Mine no longer targets air units
??? Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. It's just WAY too strong right now. I seriously have no idea how it has survived 3 patches now. Mine's are easy to deal with as the game goes on. They can be scary early game if you screw up, but that's part of their power. They buy Terran time to get their infrastructure up and running so they can compete in the later parts of the game. What? lol They get more broken as the game goes on because they trade so cost effectively for gas heavy units. I'm not sure what game you're playing. Lol. If you are active on the map with cheap units you can clean them up easly, or use you know, a stalker and a obs. a roach and a overseer..
You can't clear mines with 1 roach and 1 overseer FYI
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On October 27 2012 11:57 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 11:20 vthree wrote:On October 27 2012 10:13 aZealot wrote:On October 27 2012 10:06 s3rp wrote:On October 27 2012 10:00 aZealot wrote:On October 27 2012 09:51 s3rp wrote:On October 27 2012 09:37 aZealot wrote:On October 27 2012 09:26 Snowbear wrote:As a terran I am really not looking forward to HOTS. Atm it's insane how hard terran is in WOL for someone that cant practice 6+ hours everyday. You would expect that blizzard would help us in HOTS, but it seems the other way around: it gets even harder Yeah, it would suck. But DB did say, long ago, that because Terran was the most complete race in SC2, they were hesitant to add too much to Terran. That said, it would be nice to see a small buff to mech - maybe by a small buff to Tanks? If so, I hope it's balanced vs Stalkers as the Hellbat has gone a long way to nullifying Zealot heavy armies in PvT. Of course, if they do buff the Tanks substantively, it may be grounds to tweak the Immortal and return it to being a Gateway unit. WhiteRa does look like he is having a lot of fun, though. His games, so far, have all been active with plenty of action. Terran needs BIG changes so they can actually use higher tech units . The investment for BC's , Ravens hell even Thors ( in TvP ) is huge . The payoff ? Not so much. And now with so many new options on Zerg on Toss side your still suck with playing lowtech armies against high tech shit because you don't have any lategame options to tech to that don't take years to get to. I can't pretend to knowing too much about Terran, but big changes? Would not a Tank buff (say damage) and a Thor buff (remove energy and strike cannon) be sufficient? Sure, it's not sexy, but Terran apart from a few minor holes is a complete race. I don't think anyone has ever seriously suggested that they absolutely need major new units and abilities. No? I can understand Terran player's pov, though. It does suck seeing candy distributed to P and Z with T at the back of the line. From a Protoss perspective though, Protoss in WOL has always been limited, IMO. Powerful but limited. If these HoTS developments continue, I think we will see an explosion of creativity from Protoss players which will help all P match-ups. Heck, Gateway units, Robo, Stargate, FF, Timewarp, Warpgates, Templars, Mamaship. What's not to love as P? Terran is NOT complete in HotS. They have useless high tech . Most of the issues that limited the other races have been well changed in HotS so far. Terran not so much. There still no endgame army to tech to that doesn't need 4+Bases + lightyears of time. BC's are still way too bad for what the cost . Ravens again are very meh and need years of setup time before becoming effective. Ghosts are only a niche unit ( so are Reapers ) . They also still have at least 3 useless upgrades. The units nobody used in WoL will still not be used in HotS without changes. I did not say there were complete in HoTS. Only that they were the most complete race in WOL and thus requiring the least attention. (DB said as much in an interview a few months ago.) Tbh, I don't see Terran needing major changes other than buffs to some of their higher tech. Ghosts need to be looked at though, I agree. I did not life the Ghost nerf, btw. Give it time, mate. The beta has been stated to be a months long process. Positive changes to Terran will come. Maybe you should just be happy for your P and Z brothers until that time comes? We will then rejoice with you. I would say that terrans is the most complete race up to tier 2. Their late game units are pretty bleh and their production just cannot keep up with the other 2 races in the late game. Having some core units spread into 3 upgrade path also hurts (bio, mech, air). There is the big issue for Terran in SC2: production.We still use the BW way, while Protoss have evolved to WARP and Zerg to Spawn Larvae.I agree its the most complete race,but only to tier 2.Later it becomes a nightmare.30 mins to make Ravens usefull and no limit to make BCs. Not only this,but as you said Upgrades research is another handicap.One for BIO,one for Ground and another for AIR.Carapace affect both Range and Melee Zergs.But they got Air,same as P and T.Protoss upgrades Gate and Robo units at same time.WHY???The Zerg caparace is understandable for every unit,but why Robo and Gate Units share upgrades?A stalker is a robotic unit,so as Immortal,sentry and Colossus,so it make sense,but then why Zealots share upgrads with them?A Marauder is almost robotic unit.Its a Suit,same as Iron Man,so why cant Tank and Marauder upgrades be the same?
While I do think inject larvaes actually do injects too many larvaes as opposed to regular macro hatches, and that warpgate is simply the biggest game breaker in terms of mechanics, I think terran macro is in good shape. Besides, Terran has the best tier 1 of the game by very far, and with reactors, marines/helions/vikings are built pretty fast.
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On October 27 2012 10:31 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 10:28 -Kyo- wrote:On October 27 2012 10:25 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On October 27 2012 09:56 -Kyo- wrote:
What in the F?????? Still no change to the widow mine? Who the hell is balancing this game? Jesus christ lmao.
To be rational about it:
Change Mine supply to 1
Build time cut by 1/4
Mine is destroyed when activated
Mine no longer targets air units
??? Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. It's just WAY too strong right now. I seriously have no idea how it has survived 3 patches now. Mine's are easy to deal with as the game goes on. They can be scary early game if you screw up, but that's part of their power. They buy Terran time to get their infrastructure up and running so they can compete in the later parts of the game. What? lol They get more broken as the game goes on because they trade so cost effectively for gas heavy units. I'm not sure what game you're playing. Lol. .... Are you playing without detection or something? Mines are not very hard to deal with, you just have to be more careful and not just a-move at a Terran. Which is kind of the whole point of mines in general...
Okay, here I'll help you. First off you're under the assumption people are making mines every bit. The truth of the matter is, the most effective way to play T atm is just mass mines with small other unit harass/support until mid game and economy is established as for protoss there is no way to put pressure back on terrans without detection. Mid game - How did you deal with mech/tanks in BW? you either quick tech change into carriers or you had very good micro to break lines with things like zealots and drops on top of tanks, of course this is all assuming you could get positioning and have taken your 3rd at the correct time to stop their timing. In SC2 If you have mines and then hellions/tanks/thor behind that you cannot get near it and trade effectively if they have mass mines. Take for example you attack into it with immortals and zealots or the basic unit composition at this timing. Zealots and immortals MELT to new mech lines due to mines going through hardened shield and BHel destroying zealots. Even if you're slowing losing observers over time, 1, 2, 3, 4 to scans and vikings so you cannot detect mines (which good terrans will do) you fall behind in gas incredibly fast. Moreover, this lets terran dictate when you can or cannot engage. You literally have no control over it since you have no detection. You cannot early tech into tempests to deal with this either as vikings pretty much own them since they're produced faster and are, again, more cost effective in high number. Late game, mixing tempests in is a good idea though, and I'd admit air toss support/large tech switch late game is quite potent vs this mech army 200/200 if done at the right time. Tempests in good number with storm/archons allow you to deal with vikings quite well so then it becomes a debate of T3. But that's not what I'm focusing on.
The truth of what I'm saying though isn't that mines in themselves are imbalanced. What I'm stating is that early to mid game mines dictate the game too much, and any trade you do with them, unless you're just straight out killing them with 0 damage taken is an incredibly awful exchange. Especially observers since you'd rather be making immortals or collosus/putting gas somewhere else. If what you're really suggesting is that you should inch your observer across the map incredibly slowly, or baby sit the minimap .. I have no idea if you're planning to multi task somewhere else or just sit in your base @_@;;..
On October 27 2012 12:16 Tsuki.eu wrote:
If you are active on the map with cheap units you can clean them up easly, or use you know, a stalker and a obs. a roach and a overseer..
Yeah, sure in an ideal situation where they just leave the mines there and let u kill them with a few stalkers. Seriously? A good terran isn't going to just "let" you kill their mines. They're going to put them in very good strategic locations, either near their army, or in an obscure spot to take army off guard. Just like with off set high templars. It feels like either none of you guys have played against high level terrans and are just theory crafting or are just assuming these things are balanced.
And I want to reiterate, I have ZERO problem with the mine concept, if done correctly(i.e I think BW mines were 100% fine). But what the problem is right now is how cost effective these things are trading, and what they allow the terran to do in the mean time. Keep in mind, these mines can be set off and then continue to be used. If you kill a cloaked banshee TvT with a mine you've denied the research they put into cloak, the banshee, and the potential harass time they could have done. All with a singular mine that can be reused. If that does not seem farfetched either you are blind sighted, or are blatantly ignoring the obvious.
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On October 27 2012 12:14 Dvriel wrote:
Still dont see a Role for the Void Ray in SC2.And people still dont use CArriers..
I've been experimenting with Carriers quite a bit this week. They are good vs Swarm Host contains and late game mech, but you have to try to hide the tech. Carriers have always been quite powerful, but easily prepared for if you know they are coming. The unit still needs some love, but with Mothership Core and increased usefulness of Oracle, Stargate play is definitely starting to become something of a viable alternative to Robo play, or at least very solid support.
I wouldn't shed a tear over losing Void Rays, though. Oracle and Tempest basically do what the Void Ray does, but in different and more useful ways.
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On October 27 2012 12:23 Patate wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 11:57 Dvriel wrote:On October 27 2012 11:20 vthree wrote:On October 27 2012 10:13 aZealot wrote:On October 27 2012 10:06 s3rp wrote:On October 27 2012 10:00 aZealot wrote:On October 27 2012 09:51 s3rp wrote:On October 27 2012 09:37 aZealot wrote:On October 27 2012 09:26 Snowbear wrote:As a terran I am really not looking forward to HOTS. Atm it's insane how hard terran is in WOL for someone that cant practice 6+ hours everyday. You would expect that blizzard would help us in HOTS, but it seems the other way around: it gets even harder Yeah, it would suck. But DB did say, long ago, that because Terran was the most complete race in SC2, they were hesitant to add too much to Terran. That said, it would be nice to see a small buff to mech - maybe by a small buff to Tanks? If so, I hope it's balanced vs Stalkers as the Hellbat has gone a long way to nullifying Zealot heavy armies in PvT. Of course, if they do buff the Tanks substantively, it may be grounds to tweak the Immortal and return it to being a Gateway unit. WhiteRa does look like he is having a lot of fun, though. His games, so far, have all been active with plenty of action. Terran needs BIG changes so they can actually use higher tech units . The investment for BC's , Ravens hell even Thors ( in TvP ) is huge . The payoff ? Not so much. And now with so many new options on Zerg on Toss side your still suck with playing lowtech armies against high tech shit because you don't have any lategame options to tech to that don't take years to get to. I can't pretend to knowing too much about Terran, but big changes? Would not a Tank buff (say damage) and a Thor buff (remove energy and strike cannon) be sufficient? Sure, it's not sexy, but Terran apart from a few minor holes is a complete race. I don't think anyone has ever seriously suggested that they absolutely need major new units and abilities. No? I can understand Terran player's pov, though. It does suck seeing candy distributed to P and Z with T at the back of the line. From a Protoss perspective though, Protoss in WOL has always been limited, IMO. Powerful but limited. If these HoTS developments continue, I think we will see an explosion of creativity from Protoss players which will help all P match-ups. Heck, Gateway units, Robo, Stargate, FF, Timewarp, Warpgates, Templars, Mamaship. What's not to love as P? Terran is NOT complete in HotS. They have useless high tech . Most of the issues that limited the other races have been well changed in HotS so far. Terran not so much. There still no endgame army to tech to that doesn't need 4+Bases + lightyears of time. BC's are still way too bad for what the cost . Ravens again are very meh and need years of setup time before becoming effective. Ghosts are only a niche unit ( so are Reapers ) . They also still have at least 3 useless upgrades. The units nobody used in WoL will still not be used in HotS without changes. I did not say there were complete in HoTS. Only that they were the most complete race in WOL and thus requiring the least attention. (DB said as much in an interview a few months ago.) Tbh, I don't see Terran needing major changes other than buffs to some of their higher tech. Ghosts need to be looked at though, I agree. I did not life the Ghost nerf, btw. Give it time, mate. The beta has been stated to be a months long process. Positive changes to Terran will come. Maybe you should just be happy for your P and Z brothers until that time comes? We will then rejoice with you. I would say that terrans is the most complete race up to tier 2. Their late game units are pretty bleh and their production just cannot keep up with the other 2 races in the late game. Having some core units spread into 3 upgrade path also hurts (bio, mech, air). There is the big issue for Terran in SC2: production.We still use the BW way, while Protoss have evolved to WARP and Zerg to Spawn Larvae.I agree its the most complete race,but only to tier 2.Later it becomes a nightmare.30 mins to make Ravens usefull and no limit to make BCs. Not only this,but as you said Upgrades research is another handicap.One for BIO,one for Ground and another for AIR.Carapace affect both Range and Melee Zergs.But they got Air,same as P and T.Protoss upgrades Gate and Robo units at same time.WHY???The Zerg caparace is understandable for every unit,but why Robo and Gate Units share upgrades?A stalker is a robotic unit,so as Immortal,sentry and Colossus,so it make sense,but then why Zealots share upgrads with them?A Marauder is almost robotic unit.Its a Suit,same as Iron Man,so why cant Tank and Marauder upgrades be the same? While I do think inject larvaes actually do injects too many larvaes as opposed to regular macro hatches, and that warpgate is simply the biggest game breaker in terms of mechanics, I think terran macro is in good shape. Besides, Terran has the best tier 1 of the game by very far, and with reactors, marines/helions/vikings are built pretty fast.
Inject Larvae dont cost 300 mins.Only 25 Energy of a Queendralisk.Terran macro is in good shape,but Z and Ps is in much better.They just produce more quickly and the warp doing it anywhere you wish is just insane.
The best tier 1 doesnt win games for you alone.You must make a combo with tier 2.5 Medivacs.Terrans lack of Splash damge in Late Game.
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Just saw some streams with the new patch.
Terran is pretty dead.
Mech has no solution to airtoss especially tempests. Viking is the only anti-air unit that works in TvP mech. BC is dead because of Tempest's massive bonus and void ray's massive bonus. And Thor is also not useful in anti-air due to Tempest's massive bonus.
If you go bio, then the time warp + storm is a insanely good. You can use 4 oracle to cover almost the entire screen with time warp. Even with stim, bio moves very very slow within time warp. And we all know that terran bio can only survive when you micro them very well.
I mean, Terran is in pretty bad shape in WOL and there is less and less light for Terran in HOTS.
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On October 27 2012 12:37 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 12:14 Dvriel wrote:
Still dont see a Role for the Void Ray in SC2.And people still dont use CArriers.. I've been experimenting with Carriers quite a bit this week. They are good vs Swarm Host contains and late game mech, but you have to try to hide the tech. Carriers have always been quite powerful, but easily prepared for if you know they are coming. The unit still needs some love, but with Mothership Core and increased usefulness of Oracle, Stargate play is definitely starting to become something of a viable alternative to Robo play, or at least very solid support. I wouldn't shed a tear over losing Void Rays, though. Oracle and Tempest basically do what the Void Ray does, but in different and more useful ways.
But, but, they are basically Vorlon Battlecruisers!
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/er5xJ.jpg)
Seriously though, I'll miss Void Rays even though they have become niche units. I hope a role is found for them.
Perhaps straight up combat? Although in what way and form, I don't know.
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On October 27 2012 12:23 Patate wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 11:57 Dvriel wrote:On October 27 2012 11:20 vthree wrote:On October 27 2012 10:13 aZealot wrote:On October 27 2012 10:06 s3rp wrote:On October 27 2012 10:00 aZealot wrote:On October 27 2012 09:51 s3rp wrote:On October 27 2012 09:37 aZealot wrote:On October 27 2012 09:26 Snowbear wrote:As a terran I am really not looking forward to HOTS. Atm it's insane how hard terran is in WOL for someone that cant practice 6+ hours everyday. You would expect that blizzard would help us in HOTS, but it seems the other way around: it gets even harder Yeah, it would suck. But DB did say, long ago, that because Terran was the most complete race in SC2, they were hesitant to add too much to Terran. That said, it would be nice to see a small buff to mech - maybe by a small buff to Tanks? If so, I hope it's balanced vs Stalkers as the Hellbat has gone a long way to nullifying Zealot heavy armies in PvT. Of course, if they do buff the Tanks substantively, it may be grounds to tweak the Immortal and return it to being a Gateway unit. WhiteRa does look like he is having a lot of fun, though. His games, so far, have all been active with plenty of action. Terran needs BIG changes so they can actually use higher tech units . The investment for BC's , Ravens hell even Thors ( in TvP ) is huge . The payoff ? Not so much. And now with so many new options on Zerg on Toss side your still suck with playing lowtech armies against high tech shit because you don't have any lategame options to tech to that don't take years to get to. I can't pretend to knowing too much about Terran, but big changes? Would not a Tank buff (say damage) and a Thor buff (remove energy and strike cannon) be sufficient? Sure, it's not sexy, but Terran apart from a few minor holes is a complete race. I don't think anyone has ever seriously suggested that they absolutely need major new units and abilities. No? I can understand Terran player's pov, though. It does suck seeing candy distributed to P and Z with T at the back of the line. From a Protoss perspective though, Protoss in WOL has always been limited, IMO. Powerful but limited. If these HoTS developments continue, I think we will see an explosion of creativity from Protoss players which will help all P match-ups. Heck, Gateway units, Robo, Stargate, FF, Timewarp, Warpgates, Templars, Mamaship. What's not to love as P? Terran is NOT complete in HotS. They have useless high tech . Most of the issues that limited the other races have been well changed in HotS so far. Terran not so much. There still no endgame army to tech to that doesn't need 4+Bases + lightyears of time. BC's are still way too bad for what the cost . Ravens again are very meh and need years of setup time before becoming effective. Ghosts are only a niche unit ( so are Reapers ) . They also still have at least 3 useless upgrades. The units nobody used in WoL will still not be used in HotS without changes. I did not say there were complete in HoTS. Only that they were the most complete race in WOL and thus requiring the least attention. (DB said as much in an interview a few months ago.) Tbh, I don't see Terran needing major changes other than buffs to some of their higher tech. Ghosts need to be looked at though, I agree. I did not life the Ghost nerf, btw. Give it time, mate. The beta has been stated to be a months long process. Positive changes to Terran will come. Maybe you should just be happy for your P and Z brothers until that time comes? We will then rejoice with you. I would say that terrans is the most complete race up to tier 2. Their late game units are pretty bleh and their production just cannot keep up with the other 2 races in the late game. Having some core units spread into 3 upgrade path also hurts (bio, mech, air). There is the big issue for Terran in SC2: production.We still use the BW way, while Protoss have evolved to WARP and Zerg to Spawn Larvae.I agree its the most complete race,but only to tier 2.Later it becomes a nightmare.30 mins to make Ravens usefull and no limit to make BCs. Not only this,but as you said Upgrades research is another handicap.One for BIO,one for Ground and another for AIR.Carapace affect both Range and Melee Zergs.But they got Air,same as P and T.Protoss upgrades Gate and Robo units at same time.WHY???The Zerg caparace is understandable for every unit,but why Robo and Gate Units share upgrades?A stalker is a robotic unit,so as Immortal,sentry and Colossus,so it make sense,but then why Zealots share upgrads with them?A Marauder is almost robotic unit.Its a Suit,same as Iron Man,so why cant Tank and Marauder upgrades be the same? While I do think inject larvaes actually do injects too many larvaes as opposed to regular macro hatches, and that warpgate is simply the biggest game breaker in terms of mechanics, I think terran macro is in good shape. Besides, Terran has the best tier 1 of the game by very far, and with reactors, marines/helions/vikings are built pretty fast.
Production becomes a problem if you can't rely on core units coming from reactors . Which only works with Marines anyway. Helions/Vikings aren't core units anyway for like niche units.
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On October 27 2012 12:43 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 12:23 Patate wrote:On October 27 2012 11:57 Dvriel wrote:On October 27 2012 11:20 vthree wrote:On October 27 2012 10:13 aZealot wrote:On October 27 2012 10:06 s3rp wrote:On October 27 2012 10:00 aZealot wrote:On October 27 2012 09:51 s3rp wrote:On October 27 2012 09:37 aZealot wrote:On October 27 2012 09:26 Snowbear wrote:As a terran I am really not looking forward to HOTS. Atm it's insane how hard terran is in WOL for someone that cant practice 6+ hours everyday. You would expect that blizzard would help us in HOTS, but it seems the other way around: it gets even harder Yeah, it would suck. But DB did say, long ago, that because Terran was the most complete race in SC2, they were hesitant to add too much to Terran. That said, it would be nice to see a small buff to mech - maybe by a small buff to Tanks? If so, I hope it's balanced vs Stalkers as the Hellbat has gone a long way to nullifying Zealot heavy armies in PvT. Of course, if they do buff the Tanks substantively, it may be grounds to tweak the Immortal and return it to being a Gateway unit. WhiteRa does look like he is having a lot of fun, though. His games, so far, have all been active with plenty of action. Terran needs BIG changes so they can actually use higher tech units . The investment for BC's , Ravens hell even Thors ( in TvP ) is huge . The payoff ? Not so much. And now with so many new options on Zerg on Toss side your still suck with playing lowtech armies against high tech shit because you don't have any lategame options to tech to that don't take years to get to. I can't pretend to knowing too much about Terran, but big changes? Would not a Tank buff (say damage) and a Thor buff (remove energy and strike cannon) be sufficient? Sure, it's not sexy, but Terran apart from a few minor holes is a complete race. I don't think anyone has ever seriously suggested that they absolutely need major new units and abilities. No? I can understand Terran player's pov, though. It does suck seeing candy distributed to P and Z with T at the back of the line. From a Protoss perspective though, Protoss in WOL has always been limited, IMO. Powerful but limited. If these HoTS developments continue, I think we will see an explosion of creativity from Protoss players which will help all P match-ups. Heck, Gateway units, Robo, Stargate, FF, Timewarp, Warpgates, Templars, Mamaship. What's not to love as P? Terran is NOT complete in HotS. They have useless high tech . Most of the issues that limited the other races have been well changed in HotS so far. Terran not so much. There still no endgame army to tech to that doesn't need 4+Bases + lightyears of time. BC's are still way too bad for what the cost . Ravens again are very meh and need years of setup time before becoming effective. Ghosts are only a niche unit ( so are Reapers ) . They also still have at least 3 useless upgrades. The units nobody used in WoL will still not be used in HotS without changes. I did not say there were complete in HoTS. Only that they were the most complete race in WOL and thus requiring the least attention. (DB said as much in an interview a few months ago.) Tbh, I don't see Terran needing major changes other than buffs to some of their higher tech. Ghosts need to be looked at though, I agree. I did not life the Ghost nerf, btw. Give it time, mate. The beta has been stated to be a months long process. Positive changes to Terran will come. Maybe you should just be happy for your P and Z brothers until that time comes? We will then rejoice with you. I would say that terrans is the most complete race up to tier 2. Their late game units are pretty bleh and their production just cannot keep up with the other 2 races in the late game. Having some core units spread into 3 upgrade path also hurts (bio, mech, air). There is the big issue for Terran in SC2: production.We still use the BW way, while Protoss have evolved to WARP and Zerg to Spawn Larvae.I agree its the most complete race,but only to tier 2.Later it becomes a nightmare.30 mins to make Ravens usefull and no limit to make BCs. Not only this,but as you said Upgrades research is another handicap.One for BIO,one for Ground and another for AIR.Carapace affect both Range and Melee Zergs.But they got Air,same as P and T.Protoss upgrades Gate and Robo units at same time.WHY???The Zerg caparace is understandable for every unit,but why Robo and Gate Units share upgrades?A stalker is a robotic unit,so as Immortal,sentry and Colossus,so it make sense,but then why Zealots share upgrads with them?A Marauder is almost robotic unit.Its a Suit,same as Iron Man,so why cant Tank and Marauder upgrades be the same? While I do think inject larvaes actually do injects too many larvaes as opposed to regular macro hatches, and that warpgate is simply the biggest game breaker in terms of mechanics, I think terran macro is in good shape. Besides, Terran has the best tier 1 of the game by very far, and with reactors, marines/helions/vikings are built pretty fast. Production becomes a problem if you can't rely on core units coming from reactors . Which only works with Marines anyway. Helions/Vikings aren't core units anyway for like niche units.
I kind of disagree with this. Hellions/Vikings are a lot more important now if you're going mech. I feel like they should make up the bulk of your army comp with only a handful of tanks/thors to add in the real power. With mines and battle hellions mech should play out very differently in straight up battles than current WoL mech.
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all looks pretty good to me, or at least nothing got worse as far as i can tell. tempest continues to be the way blizzard is choosing to patch the tech hole between gateway units and viable air builds, kind of a boring unit but it's been doing its job fairly well from what i've seen. time warp seems cool. pulsar beam is kinda "what", only being able to attack buildings is kinda contrived, but not nearly as contrived as entomb was so whatever.
i really think widow mine needs to be nerfed. either make it cost a lot more, or make it require an upgrade to get detection at a higher tech level, or remove detection entirely. it's completely insane that terran can spend 75/25 (or something like that? i know they're cheap as hell) each on a pair of cloaked units that completely shuts down all threat of DT's, and probably cripple other cloaked strategies like burrow-walking infestors, cloaked banshees, etc...
anyway, i like that the mcore, oracle and viper are becoming more useful, but will just die for no return if you a-move them with your army (i wince everytime a protoss loses their mcore because they didn't keep it at a safe distance, and watching vipers melt is so so sad.)
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On October 27 2012 12:38 larse wrote:
Just saw some streams with the new patch.
Terran is pretty dead.
Mech has no solution to airtoss especially tempests. Viking is the only anti-air unit that works in TvP mech. BC is dead because of Tempest's massive bonus and void ray's massive bonus. And Thor is also not useful in anti-air due to Tempest's massive bonus.
If you go bio, then the time warp + storm is a insanely good. You can use 4 oracle to cover almost the entire screen with time warp. Even with stim, bio moves very very slow within time warp. And we all know that terran bio can only survive when you micro them very well.
I mean, Terran is in pretty bad shape in WOL and there is less and less light for Terran in HOTS.
The Protoss Fungal will make BIO impossible in HotS.In WoL there was ONLY BIO in TvP,so I suppose Blizzard want to change this and we now must go back to BW and play Mech again.In the streams P go HT+Tempest+harras with blink stalkers,chargelots and Warp Prism.Mech cant cover all of this.Even Vikings can deal pretty well with Tempest,the storms kill them.
And Widow Mines are a joke in TvP.They just do nothing.Maybe hit some bad controlled Zealot,Staleker or Observer,but thats all in Early and Mid.Late game Mines do nothing.Observer outrange them and Tempest kill it,thats why T goes now lot of Ravens.Anyways Tempest outrange Tank,Viking and Mines,so Protoss send Obs,kill some mines and spot vikings to shoot them with Tempest.Vikings approach and then HT storm them:GG.
How can people say that Terrans dictate the TvP in HotS with Widow Mines???
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On October 27 2012 12:38 larse wrote:
Just saw some streams with the new patch.
Terran is pretty dead.
Mech has no solution to airtoss especially tempests. Viking is the only anti-air unit that works in TvP mech. BC is dead because of Tempest's massive bonus and void ray's massive bonus. And Thor is also not useful in anti-air due to Tempest's massive bonus.
If you go bio, then the time warp + storm is a insanely good. You can use 4 oracle to cover almost the entire screen with time warp. Even with stim, bio moves very very slow within time warp. And we all know that terran bio can only survive when you micro them very well.
I mean, Terran is in pretty bad shape in WOL and there is less and less light for Terran in HOTS.
it was looking like that even before today's patch. the tempest has really changed things. i'm guessing that once this goes on long enough they'll reintroduce their "new and improved" war hound, and it'll probably (i hope) be geared towards dealing with this problem, or at least have some crossover in dealing with it. hopefully something that synergizes well with thors without replacing them.
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On October 27 2012 12:14 Dvriel wrote:
Still dont see a Role for the Void Ray in SC2.And people still dont use CArriers..
If mech TvP works, then we will see carriers. I see toss getting them all the time vs Morrow
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On October 27 2012 12:49 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 12:38 larse wrote:
Just saw some streams with the new patch.
Terran is pretty dead.
Mech has no solution to airtoss especially tempests. Viking is the only anti-air unit that works in TvP mech. BC is dead because of Tempest's massive bonus and void ray's massive bonus. And Thor is also not useful in anti-air due to Tempest's massive bonus.
If you go bio, then the time warp + storm is a insanely good. You can use 4 oracle to cover almost the entire screen with time warp. Even with stim, bio moves very very slow within time warp. And we all know that terran bio can only survive when you micro them very well.
I mean, Terran is in pretty bad shape in WOL and there is less and less light for Terran in HOTS. The Protoss Fungal will make BIO impossible in HotS.In WoL there was ONLY BIO in TvP,so I suppose Blizzard want to change this and we now must go back to BW and play Mech again.In the streams P go HT+Tempest+harras with blink stalkers,chargelots and Warp Prism.Mech cant cover all of this.Even Vikings can deal pretty well with Tempest,the storms kill them. And Widow Mines are a joke in TvP.They just do nothing.Maybe hit some bad controlled Zealot,Staleker or Observer,but thats all in Early and Mid.Late game Mines do nothing.Observer outrange them and Tempest kill it,thats why T goes now lot of Ravens.Anyways Tempest outrange Tank,Viking and Mines,so Protoss send Obs,kill some mines and spot vikings to shoot them with Tempest.Vikings approach and then HT storm them:GG. How can people say that Terrans dictate the TvP in HotS with Widow Mines???
People who can't see right through it. And they are saying things like "we need more time to see whether is true", "metagame will always change", or "you don't know whether it's OP or not now". Well, a wise theorycrafting just provides as much insight as how the actual game turns out. It's obvious now that Terran is lacking something in TvP.
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On October 27 2012 12:43 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 12:23 Patate wrote:On October 27 2012 11:57 Dvriel wrote:On October 27 2012 11:20 vthree wrote:On October 27 2012 10:13 aZealot wrote:On October 27 2012 10:06 s3rp wrote:On October 27 2012 10:00 aZealot wrote:On October 27 2012 09:51 s3rp wrote:On October 27 2012 09:37 aZealot wrote:On October 27 2012 09:26 Snowbear wrote:As a terran I am really not looking forward to HOTS. Atm it's insane how hard terran is in WOL for someone that cant practice 6+ hours everyday. You would expect that blizzard would help us in HOTS, but it seems the other way around: it gets even harder Yeah, it would suck. But DB did say, long ago, that because Terran was the most complete race in SC2, they were hesitant to add too much to Terran. That said, it would be nice to see a small buff to mech - maybe by a small buff to Tanks? If so, I hope it's balanced vs Stalkers as the Hellbat has gone a long way to nullifying Zealot heavy armies in PvT. Of course, if they do buff the Tanks substantively, it may be grounds to tweak the Immortal and return it to being a Gateway unit. WhiteRa does look like he is having a lot of fun, though. His games, so far, have all been active with plenty of action. Terran needs BIG changes so they can actually use higher tech units . The investment for BC's , Ravens hell even Thors ( in TvP ) is huge . The payoff ? Not so much. And now with so many new options on Zerg on Toss side your still suck with playing lowtech armies against high tech shit because you don't have any lategame options to tech to that don't take years to get to. I can't pretend to knowing too much about Terran, but big changes? Would not a Tank buff (say damage) and a Thor buff (remove energy and strike cannon) be sufficient? Sure, it's not sexy, but Terran apart from a few minor holes is a complete race. I don't think anyone has ever seriously suggested that they absolutely need major new units and abilities. No? I can understand Terran player's pov, though. It does suck seeing candy distributed to P and Z with T at the back of the line. From a Protoss perspective though, Protoss in WOL has always been limited, IMO. Powerful but limited. If these HoTS developments continue, I think we will see an explosion of creativity from Protoss players which will help all P match-ups. Heck, Gateway units, Robo, Stargate, FF, Timewarp, Warpgates, Templars, Mamaship. What's not to love as P? Terran is NOT complete in HotS. They have useless high tech . Most of the issues that limited the other races have been well changed in HotS so far. Terran not so much. There still no endgame army to tech to that doesn't need 4+Bases + lightyears of time. BC's are still way too bad for what the cost . Ravens again are very meh and need years of setup time before becoming effective. Ghosts are only a niche unit ( so are Reapers ) . They also still have at least 3 useless upgrades. The units nobody used in WoL will still not be used in HotS without changes. I did not say there were complete in HoTS. Only that they were the most complete race in WOL and thus requiring the least attention. (DB said as much in an interview a few months ago.) Tbh, I don't see Terran needing major changes other than buffs to some of their higher tech. Ghosts need to be looked at though, I agree. I did not life the Ghost nerf, btw. Give it time, mate. The beta has been stated to be a months long process. Positive changes to Terran will come. Maybe you should just be happy for your P and Z brothers until that time comes? We will then rejoice with you. I would say that terrans is the most complete race up to tier 2. Their late game units are pretty bleh and their production just cannot keep up with the other 2 races in the late game. Having some core units spread into 3 upgrade path also hurts (bio, mech, air). There is the big issue for Terran in SC2: production.We still use the BW way, while Protoss have evolved to WARP and Zerg to Spawn Larvae.I agree its the most complete race,but only to tier 2.Later it becomes a nightmare.30 mins to make Ravens usefull and no limit to make BCs. Not only this,but as you said Upgrades research is another handicap.One for BIO,one for Ground and another for AIR.Carapace affect both Range and Melee Zergs.But they got Air,same as P and T.Protoss upgrades Gate and Robo units at same time.WHY???The Zerg caparace is understandable for every unit,but why Robo and Gate Units share upgrades?A stalker is a robotic unit,so as Immortal,sentry and Colossus,so it make sense,but then why Zealots share upgrads with them?A Marauder is almost robotic unit.Its a Suit,same as Iron Man,so why cant Tank and Marauder upgrades be the same? While I do think inject larvaes actually do injects too many larvaes as opposed to regular macro hatches, and that warpgate is simply the biggest game breaker in terms of mechanics, I think terran macro is in good shape. Besides, Terran has the best tier 1 of the game by very far, and with reactors, marines/helions/vikings are built pretty fast. Production becomes a problem if you can't rely on core units coming from reactors . Which only works with Marines anyway. Helions/Vikings aren't core units anyway for like niche units.
a cool idea i had was to make the fusion core have an upgrade to turn all add ons into those special addons you see in the campaign, You know the ones that allow double production of any unit?
something like that
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On October 27 2012 12:47 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 12:43 s3rp wrote:On October 27 2012 12:23 Patate wrote:On October 27 2012 11:57 Dvriel wrote:On October 27 2012 11:20 vthree wrote:On October 27 2012 10:13 aZealot wrote:On October 27 2012 10:06 s3rp wrote:On October 27 2012 10:00 aZealot wrote:On October 27 2012 09:51 s3rp wrote:On October 27 2012 09:37 aZealot wrote:[quote] Yeah, it would suck. But DB did say, long ago, that because Terran was the most complete race in SC2, they were hesitant to add too much to Terran. That said, it would be nice to see a small buff to mech - maybe by a small buff to Tanks? If so, I hope it's balanced vs Stalkers as the Hellbat has gone a long way to nullifying Zealot heavy armies in PvT. Of course, if they do buff the Tanks substantively, it may be grounds to tweak the Immortal and return it to being a Gateway unit. WhiteRa does look like he is having a lot of fun, though. His games, so far, have all been active with plenty of action. Terran needs BIG changes so they can actually use higher tech units . The investment for BC's , Ravens hell even Thors ( in TvP ) is huge . The payoff ? Not so much. And now with so many new options on Zerg on Toss side your still suck with playing lowtech armies against high tech shit because you don't have any lategame options to tech to that don't take years to get to. I can't pretend to knowing too much about Terran, but big changes? Would not a Tank buff (say damage) and a Thor buff (remove energy and strike cannon) be sufficient? Sure, it's not sexy, but Terran apart from a few minor holes is a complete race. I don't think anyone has ever seriously suggested that they absolutely need major new units and abilities. No? I can understand Terran player's pov, though. It does suck seeing candy distributed to P and Z with T at the back of the line. From a Protoss perspective though, Protoss in WOL has always been limited, IMO. Powerful but limited. If these HoTS developments continue, I think we will see an explosion of creativity from Protoss players which will help all P match-ups. Heck, Gateway units, Robo, Stargate, FF, Timewarp, Warpgates, Templars, Mamaship. What's not to love as P? Terran is NOT complete in HotS. They have useless high tech . Most of the issues that limited the other races have been well changed in HotS so far. Terran not so much. There still no endgame army to tech to that doesn't need 4+Bases + lightyears of time. BC's are still way too bad for what the cost . Ravens again are very meh and need years of setup time before becoming effective. Ghosts are only a niche unit ( so are Reapers ) . They also still have at least 3 useless upgrades. The units nobody used in WoL will still not be used in HotS without changes. I did not say there were complete in HoTS. Only that they were the most complete race in WOL and thus requiring the least attention. (DB said as much in an interview a few months ago.) Tbh, I don't see Terran needing major changes other than buffs to some of their higher tech. Ghosts need to be looked at though, I agree. I did not life the Ghost nerf, btw. Give it time, mate. The beta has been stated to be a months long process. Positive changes to Terran will come. Maybe you should just be happy for your P and Z brothers until that time comes? We will then rejoice with you. I would say that terrans is the most complete race up to tier 2. Their late game units are pretty bleh and their production just cannot keep up with the other 2 races in the late game. Having some core units spread into 3 upgrade path also hurts (bio, mech, air). There is the big issue for Terran in SC2: production.We still use the BW way, while Protoss have evolved to WARP and Zerg to Spawn Larvae.I agree its the most complete race,but only to tier 2.Later it becomes a nightmare.30 mins to make Ravens usefull and no limit to make BCs. Not only this,but as you said Upgrades research is another handicap.One for BIO,one for Ground and another for AIR.Carapace affect both Range and Melee Zergs.But they got Air,same as P and T.Protoss upgrades Gate and Robo units at same time.WHY???The Zerg caparace is understandable for every unit,but why Robo and Gate Units share upgrades?A stalker is a robotic unit,so as Immortal,sentry and Colossus,so it make sense,but then why Zealots share upgrads with them?A Marauder is almost robotic unit.Its a Suit,same as Iron Man,so why cant Tank and Marauder upgrades be the same? While I do think inject larvaes actually do injects too many larvaes as opposed to regular macro hatches, and that warpgate is simply the biggest game breaker in terms of mechanics, I think terran macro is in good shape. Besides, Terran has the best tier 1 of the game by very far, and with reactors, marines/helions/vikings are built pretty fast. Production becomes a problem if you can't rely on core units coming from reactors . Which only works with Marines anyway. Helions/Vikings aren't core units anyway for like niche units. I kind of disagree with this. Hellions/Vikings are a lot more important now if you're going mech. I feel like they should make up the bulk of your army comp with only a handful of tanks/thors to add in the real power. With mines and battle hellions mech should play out very differently in straight up battles than current WoL mech.
Then you create a very weak army . Vikings are pure AA and Helions are still not great combat units and are also for whatever reason Bio now. The bulk of your army will allways be tanks if you Mech . Helions don't nearly have enough firepower to be anything but buffer . There's also no reason to get more than at best a few Vikings unless your opponent goes air bigtime. They're bad unless you need anti-air why should that units be a core unit if your opponent doesn't use that ?
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EPT
