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On October 27 2012 11:57 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 11:20 vthree wrote:On October 27 2012 10:13 aZealot wrote:On October 27 2012 10:06 s3rp wrote:On October 27 2012 10:00 aZealot wrote:On October 27 2012 09:51 s3rp wrote:On October 27 2012 09:37 aZealot wrote:On October 27 2012 09:26 Snowbear wrote:As a terran I am really not looking forward to HOTS. Atm it's insane how hard terran is in WOL for someone that cant practice 6+ hours everyday. You would expect that blizzard would help us in HOTS, but it seems the other way around: it gets even harder  Yeah, it would suck. But DB did say, long ago, that because Terran was the most complete race in SC2, they were hesitant to add too much to Terran. That said, it would be nice to see a small buff to mech - maybe by a small buff to Tanks? If so, I hope it's balanced vs Stalkers as the Hellbat has gone a long way to nullifying Zealot heavy armies in PvT. Of course, if they do buff the Tanks substantively, it may be grounds to tweak the Immortal and return it to being a Gateway unit.  WhiteRa does look like he is having a lot of fun, though. His games, so far, have all been active with plenty of action. Terran needs BIG changes so they can actually use higher tech units . The investment for BC's , Ravens hell even Thors ( in TvP ) is huge . The payoff ? Not so much. And now with so many new options on Zerg on Toss side your still suck with playing lowtech armies against high tech shit because you don't have any lategame options to tech to that don't take years to get to. I can't pretend to knowing too much about Terran, but big changes? Would not a Tank buff (say damage) and a Thor buff (remove energy and strike cannon) be sufficient? Sure, it's not sexy, but Terran apart from a few minor holes is a complete race. I don't think anyone has ever seriously suggested that they absolutely need major new units and abilities. No? I can understand Terran player's pov, though. It does suck seeing candy distributed to P and Z with T at the back of the line. From a Protoss perspective though, Protoss in WOL has always been limited, IMO. Powerful but limited. If these HoTS developments continue, I think we will see an explosion of creativity from Protoss players which will help all P match-ups. Heck, Gateway units, Robo, Stargate, FF, Timewarp, Warpgates, Templars, Mamaship. What's not to love as P? Terran is NOT complete in HotS. They have useless high tech . Most of the issues that limited the other races have been well changed in HotS so far. Terran not so much. There still no endgame army to tech to that doesn't need 4+Bases + lightyears of time. BC's are still way too bad for what the cost . Ravens again are very meh and need years of setup time before becoming effective. Ghosts are only a niche unit ( so are Reapers ) . They also still have at least 3 useless upgrades. The units nobody used in WoL will still not be used in HotS without changes. I did not say there were complete in HoTS. Only that they were the most complete race in WOL and thus requiring the least attention. (DB said as much in an interview a few months ago.) Tbh, I don't see Terran needing major changes other than buffs to some of their higher tech. Ghosts need to be looked at though, I agree. I did not life the Ghost nerf, btw. Give it time, mate. The beta has been stated to be a months long process. Positive changes to Terran will come. Maybe you should just be happy for your P and Z brothers until that time comes? We will then rejoice with you. I would say that terrans is the most complete race up to tier 2. Their late game units are pretty bleh and their production just cannot keep up with the other 2 races in the late game. Having some core units spread into 3 upgrade path also hurts (bio, mech, air). There is the big issue for Terran in SC2: production.We still use the BW way, while Protoss have evolved to WARP and Zerg to Spawn Larvae.I agree its the most complete race,but only to tier 2.Later it becomes a nightmare.30 mins to make Ravens usefull and no limit to make BCs. Not only this,but as you said Upgrades research is another handicap.One for BIO,one for Ground and another for AIR.Carapace affect both Range and Melee Zergs.But they got Air,same as P and T.Protoss upgrades Gate and Robo units at same time.WHY???The Zerg caparace is understandable for every unit,but why Robo and Gate Units share upgrades?A stalker is a robotic unit,so as Immortal,sentry and Colossus,so it make sense,but then why Zealots share upgrads with them?A Marauder is almost robotic unit.Its a Suit,same as Iron Man,so why cant Tank and Marauder upgrades be the same?
Huh? What are you on about? Marines, probably the best all-around unit in the game, are built 2 at a time from Reactors. Same with Hellions, Medivacs, Vikings etc. All races have production boosts in their own respective ways. The only issue, from a Terran perspective, is Protoss warpgate when 200/200 and Zerg production capacity with Larvae Inject. Even then, Protoss WG only affects GW units and the Zealot remax from WOL is being countered with the addition of the Hellbat so that you hardly see Zealot heavy armies in HotS PvT anymore. (Unlike Zerg we don't get to warp our Robo and SG units.)
Secondly, Protoss upgrades have always been that way from SC1 onwards. Remember that Protoss defensive upgrades are shared between armour and shields. Shield upgrades are expensive (as they affect buildings too) and are rarely used in active PvX play due to their heavy costs. You usually only see them in the very late game, and when Protoss can afford them. This is why the basic Protoss ground army shares upgrades. It is also because Protoss armies are always synergistic and usually involve a mix of Robo and GW units. We can't go just GW or just Robo. Two upgrade paths on top of expensive units, expensive structures, and with the armour/shield divergence would be unaffordable and ineffective for any Protoss player.
I can get why you are peeved off. But your opinion here is just wrong.
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On October 27 2012 10:17 aZealot wrote:
Question regarding Time Warp, does it affect Blink Stalkers? For example, slow down Blink cooldown by 50%?
Don't think anyone nabbed this, so on the off chance you see this...
No. Movement speed only. Blizzard is considering giving it other effects, like speeding up the timer on infested terrans and broodlings.
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On October 27 2012 12:56 Tamburlaine wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 10:17 aZealot wrote:
Question regarding Time Warp, does it affect Blink Stalkers? For example, slow down Blink cooldown by 50%? Don't think anyone nabbed this, so on the off chance you see this... No. Movement speed only. Blizzard is considering giving it other effects, like speeding up the timer on infested terrans and broodlings.
Cool, thanks. It would be handy if it did slow down Blink cooldown. (Maybe.) Blink in, get trapped, die.
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Damn you Blizzard, you guys are so incompetent. How can you give so much great stuff to zerg, terran and protoss without buffing random? Poor random players have no incentive to buy HOTS. As a long-time random player I'm voicing my great displeasure with this debacle.
I'm done with this stupid game, gg Blizzard. 
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Pulsar Beam is the same dps vs buildings as charged Void Rays...except coming from a unit that is faster, cheaper, and requires no charging up.
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Holy cow...so I just looked at the changes from Husky's VoDs...I could totally see the slowing field with storm obliterate everything, and mass oracles sniping buildings in 4v4s! Looks like protoss got a pretty nice change
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On October 27 2012 12:55 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 11:57 Dvriel wrote:On October 27 2012 11:20 vthree wrote:On October 27 2012 10:13 aZealot wrote:On October 27 2012 10:06 s3rp wrote:On October 27 2012 10:00 aZealot wrote:On October 27 2012 09:51 s3rp wrote:On October 27 2012 09:37 aZealot wrote:On October 27 2012 09:26 Snowbear wrote:As a terran I am really not looking forward to HOTS. Atm it's insane how hard terran is in WOL for someone that cant practice 6+ hours everyday. You would expect that blizzard would help us in HOTS, but it seems the other way around: it gets even harder Yeah, it would suck. But DB did say, long ago, that because Terran was the most complete race in SC2, they were hesitant to add too much to Terran. That said, it would be nice to see a small buff to mech - maybe by a small buff to Tanks? If so, I hope it's balanced vs Stalkers as the Hellbat has gone a long way to nullifying Zealot heavy armies in PvT. Of course, if they do buff the Tanks substantively, it may be grounds to tweak the Immortal and return it to being a Gateway unit. WhiteRa does look like he is having a lot of fun, though. His games, so far, have all been active with plenty of action. Terran needs BIG changes so they can actually use higher tech units . The investment for BC's , Ravens hell even Thors ( in TvP ) is huge . The payoff ? Not so much. And now with so many new options on Zerg on Toss side your still suck with playing lowtech armies against high tech shit because you don't have any lategame options to tech to that don't take years to get to. I can't pretend to knowing too much about Terran, but big changes? Would not a Tank buff (say damage) and a Thor buff (remove energy and strike cannon) be sufficient? Sure, it's not sexy, but Terran apart from a few minor holes is a complete race. I don't think anyone has ever seriously suggested that they absolutely need major new units and abilities. No? I can understand Terran player's pov, though. It does suck seeing candy distributed to P and Z with T at the back of the line. From a Protoss perspective though, Protoss in WOL has always been limited, IMO. Powerful but limited. If these HoTS developments continue, I think we will see an explosion of creativity from Protoss players which will help all P match-ups. Heck, Gateway units, Robo, Stargate, FF, Timewarp, Warpgates, Templars, Mamaship. What's not to love as P? Terran is NOT complete in HotS. They have useless high tech . Most of the issues that limited the other races have been well changed in HotS so far. Terran not so much. There still no endgame army to tech to that doesn't need 4+Bases + lightyears of time. BC's are still way too bad for what the cost . Ravens again are very meh and need years of setup time before becoming effective. Ghosts are only a niche unit ( so are Reapers ) . They also still have at least 3 useless upgrades. The units nobody used in WoL will still not be used in HotS without changes. I did not say there were complete in HoTS. Only that they were the most complete race in WOL and thus requiring the least attention. (DB said as much in an interview a few months ago.) Tbh, I don't see Terran needing major changes other than buffs to some of their higher tech. Ghosts need to be looked at though, I agree. I did not life the Ghost nerf, btw. Give it time, mate. The beta has been stated to be a months long process. Positive changes to Terran will come. Maybe you should just be happy for your P and Z brothers until that time comes? We will then rejoice with you. I would say that terrans is the most complete race up to tier 2. Their late game units are pretty bleh and their production just cannot keep up with the other 2 races in the late game. Having some core units spread into 3 upgrade path also hurts (bio, mech, air). There is the big issue for Terran in SC2: production.We still use the BW way, while Protoss have evolved to WARP and Zerg to Spawn Larvae.I agree its the most complete race,but only to tier 2.Later it becomes a nightmare.30 mins to make Ravens usefull and no limit to make BCs. Not only this,but as you said Upgrades research is another handicap.One for BIO,one for Ground and another for AIR.Carapace affect both Range and Melee Zergs.But they got Air,same as P and T.Protoss upgrades Gate and Robo units at same time.WHY???The Zerg caparace is understandable for every unit,but why Robo and Gate Units share upgrades?A stalker is a robotic unit,so as Immortal,sentry and Colossus,so it make sense,but then why Zealots share upgrads with them?A Marauder is almost robotic unit.Its a Suit,same as Iron Man,so why cant Tank and Marauder upgrades be the same? Huh? What are you on about? Marines, probably the best all-around unit in the game, are built 2 at a time from Reactors. Same with Hellions, Medivacs, Vikings etc. All races have production boosts in their own respective ways. The only issue, from a Terran perspective, is Protoss warpgate when 200/200 and Zerg production capacity with Larvae Inject. Even then, Protoss WG only affects GW units and the Zealot remax from WOL is being countered with the addition of the Hellbat so that you hardly see Zealot heavy armies in HotS PvT anymore. (Unlike Zerg we don't get to warp our Robo and SG units.) Secondly, Protoss upgrades have always been that way from SC1 onwards. Remember that Protoss defensive upgrades are shared between armour and shields. Shield upgrades are expensive (as they affect buildings too) and are rarely used in active PvX play due to their heavy costs. You usually only see them in the very late game, and when Protoss can afford them. This is why the basic Protoss ground army shares upgrades. It is also because Protoss armies are always synergistic and usually involve a mix of Robo and GW units. We can't go just GW or just Robo. Two upgrade paths on top of expensive units, expensive structures, and with the armour/shield divergence would be unaffordable and ineffective for any Protoss player. I can get why you are peeved off. But your opinion here is just wrong.
Well,I was only thinking in Late Game.If you lose your army the best race on remaxing is the Zerg,then Protoss and then Terran.Marines use reactor,but it doesnt send them exactly where you wish on the opposit corner of the map,no?Its not only a issue,is a BIG ISSUE when the final battle is on.No matter if you got 4000mins and P 1000,he just remax so quick that you lose.
You are right.Protoss cant separate upgrades,but you still can go only GW units.Zealot,Sentry,Stalker into HT/Archons is totally possible and win lot of games.There is no strong need of Colossi or Immortals in every PvT.But let me ask you: How do T play vs Z?Bio upgrades+Tank or Viking Attack upgrades.Tanks for banelings and Vikings for BLs.Why cant Protoss do the same?If you wanna go Colossi in TvP go and research Attack upgrades in the Roboforge,because is almost the only Robo unit you will use in this MU.I wish to see TvP in WoL with Colossus without upgrades supporting the GW units.It will be the same as the tank for Terran,dont you think?
Terran can go Mech in TvZ,but only BIO is pretty hard because of infestors.
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On October 27 2012 13:03 fireforce7 wrote:
Holy cow...so I just looked at the changes from Husky's VoDs...I could totally see the slowing field with storm obliterate everything, and mass oracles sniping buildings in 4v4s! Looks like protoss got a pretty nice change
Can you post the link please?Cant find the vods...
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On October 27 2012 13:00 ElMeanYo wrote:Damn you Blizzard, you guys are so incompetent. How can you give so much great stuff to zerg, terran and protoss without buffing random? Poor random players have no incentive to buy HOTS. As a long-time random player I'm voicing my great displeasure with this debacle. I'm done with this stupid game, gg Blizzard.
sir you are a gentleman and a scholar 
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On October 27 2012 12:56 Tamburlaine wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 10:17 aZealot wrote:
Question regarding Time Warp, does it affect Blink Stalkers? For example, slow down Blink cooldown by 50%? Don't think anyone nabbed this, so on the off chance you see this... No. Movement speed only. Blizzard is considering giving it other effects, like speeding up the timer on infested terrans and broodlings.
Oh shit speeding up the decay rate of summoned units would be such a cool effect, have such awesome impacts on PvZ (Lol autoturrets) without effecting any other matchups and just in general be all round awesome
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On October 27 2012 12:38 larse wrote:
Just saw some streams with the new patch.
Terran is pretty dead.
Mech has no solution to airtoss especially tempests. Viking is the only anti-air unit that works in TvP mech. BC is dead because of Tempest's massive bonus and void ray's massive bonus. And Thor is also not useful in anti-air due to Tempest's massive bonus.
If you go bio, then the time warp + storm is a insanely good. You can use 4 oracle to cover almost the entire screen with time warp. Even with stim, bio moves very very slow within time warp. And we all know that terran bio can only survive when you micro them very well.
I mean, Terran is in pretty bad shape in WOL and there is less and less light for Terran in HOTS.
Going to have to agree with this sentiment. Hopefully Blizzard will do something before the beta ends.
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On October 27 2012 13:27 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 12:38 larse wrote:
Just saw some streams with the new patch.
Terran is pretty dead.
Mech has no solution to airtoss especially tempests. Viking is the only anti-air unit that works in TvP mech. BC is dead because of Tempest's massive bonus and void ray's massive bonus. And Thor is also not useful in anti-air due to Tempest's massive bonus.
If you go bio, then the time warp + storm is a insanely good. You can use 4 oracle to cover almost the entire screen with time warp. Even with stim, bio moves very very slow within time warp. And we all know that terran bio can only survive when you micro them very well.
I mean, Terran is in pretty bad shape in WOL and there is less and less light for Terran in HOTS. Going to have to agree with this sentiment. Hopefully Blizzard will do something before the beta ends.
hey man its ok... after all which race was top dog in the beginning of WOL?... look at it now
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On October 27 2012 05:52 Seiniyta wrote:
If I'm not mistaken 3.5 radius is like a really big surface area right?
yeah its pretty big... like about the size of vortex.
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On October 27 2012 13:03 awesomoecalypse wrote:
Pulsar Beam is the same dps vs buildings as charged Void Rays...except coming from a unit that is faster, cheaper, and requires no charging up.
Also far more fragile, has slightly less range, relies on energy to attack, and can't defend itself.
I'm not totally sold on it. But I don't hate it.
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On October 27 2012 06:58 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 06:50 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On October 27 2012 06:47 avilo wrote:On October 27 2012 06:41 Plansix wrote:On October 27 2012 06:38 avilo wrote:
Welcome to protossville. Haha @_@
Worst changes imo: Tempests buffed? More? Really? I know people are not used to seeing these much yet, but in lategame both Zerg and Terran really do not have a counter to this + deathball (Terran mech that is). Buffing it even further seems like a terrible idea to me.
Blinding cloud even more powerful? It was insane already. Guess they want to test an even more extreme version.
Best change: Spine crawler change. Holy shit, I may consider taking the time to learn Zerg now haha. ZvZ all-in and coin flip builds will hopefully go away with this change, well not go away completely but be less easy to do and provide some semblance of defender's advantage. I'd think Zerg players would be ridiculously happy with this change.
Well, maybe not the Zergs that love to do coin flippy ling/bane all-ins ZvZ will hate the change :D
Overall opinions:
Protoss: Get stuff to make their deathball even stronger, as well as stronger air units.
Zerg: Blinding cloud even more powerful now @_@ why exactly? I suppose they want to test it on the extreme?
Terran: GL, Have fun building vikings as your only realistic AA option and then losing the game because you were forced to build those vikings and land them all -> in which they all die ez -_- You wanted them to buff other units and not neft the terran ones. This is what happens. They give everyone awesome stuff and then ton it down to just slightly above reasonable levels. Oh no, I still think it's awesome they are taking that route with units and making them powerful. They buffed the mine. They buffed the tempest previous patch as well, and they also buffed the blinding cloud previous patch. Now they've double buffed blinding cloud, and double/triple buffed the tempest, and reverted previous nerfs to the battle hellion (it still has the bio flag on it which is a nerf). Guess they are taking it to the EXTREME yo I'm not a terran player so I obviously don't understand the units aswell... but how is the hellion having the bio tag a nerf? If you drop them with a medivac then they can be healed etc. I guess you take more dmg from archons... but it's not like you'd be using hellions to fight archons before either.... Helions were used as buffer before which with Bio Helions doesn't work against Archons. After that change they'rve basically become useless with Mech in TvP because nobody builds more then at best a 1-2 Medivacs for drop since it doesn't support your main army. If I Mech I build mines as buffer and not a single Helion. They just don't have a purpose in TvP in your army anymore.
I say make medivacs initially just a dropship. A player can choose to upgrade it to heal either bio or mech. This will nerf early drop harrass, which is powerful enough without healing. It'll also give medivacs a role in the mech army.
-edit-
Give ghosts 35(+15 psionic) snipe. Vs psionic it will remain the same, but they will be a little more useful vs other units.
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The only thing I don't like about this update is the renaming of purify Good job blizz
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On October 27 2012 13:03 awesomoecalypse wrote:
Pulsar Beam is the same dps vs buildings as charged Void Rays...except coming from a unit that is faster, cheaper, and requires no charging up.
Also less durable, unable to hit enemy units, energy dependant and doesn't get benefits from air weapons upgrades.
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Just an additional info after some testing:
-time warp is 30 seconds and is pretty big although not really huge and does not affect your own units.
That's pretty sick, you can timewarp bio units so that your zealots can catch up. it's also much more forgiving than FF
-oracle tempest is a really nice combo with some mixed in phoenix and void.
-The void seems a bit pointless now, it should lose the +massive bonus and get some other useful attribute.
-Vikings still massacre basically all protoss air though and timewarp only works vs ground.
-ghosts still counter all protoss units and will invalidate oracles, but due to the oracle's speed and timewarp's range it's much harder to prevent
-spidermines counter everything (because they kill observers) - aside from psi storm maybe
-ultralisk burrow charge is powerful but does not allow autocast
-it's almost impossible to properly micro a toss army which uses sentry, oracle and MSC at the same time
-with all the cool stuff for zerg and protoss, terran might indeed deserve some form of endgame buff, mid and early game they seem powerful but late game there is nothing new.
Maybe a BC upgrade like a short time speed boost or temporary energy shields coupled with faster build time - as there is still nothing to fight off brood infestor corrupter, and with th oracle and tempest late game protoss air may be tough to handle as well
-this game is now already much more sexy than WOL ever was
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On October 27 2012 14:05 viasacra89 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 06:58 s3rp wrote:On October 27 2012 06:50 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On October 27 2012 06:47 avilo wrote:On October 27 2012 06:41 Plansix wrote:On October 27 2012 06:38 avilo wrote:
Welcome to protossville. Haha @_@
Worst changes imo: Tempests buffed? More? Really? I know people are not used to seeing these much yet, but in lategame both Zerg and Terran really do not have a counter to this + deathball (Terran mech that is). Buffing it even further seems like a terrible idea to me.
Blinding cloud even more powerful? It was insane already. Guess they want to test an even more extreme version.
Best change: Spine crawler change. Holy shit, I may consider taking the time to learn Zerg now haha. ZvZ all-in and coin flip builds will hopefully go away with this change, well not go away completely but be less easy to do and provide some semblance of defender's advantage. I'd think Zerg players would be ridiculously happy with this change.
Well, maybe not the Zergs that love to do coin flippy ling/bane all-ins ZvZ will hate the change :D
Overall opinions:
Protoss: Get stuff to make their deathball even stronger, as well as stronger air units.
Zerg: Blinding cloud even more powerful now @_@ why exactly? I suppose they want to test it on the extreme?
Terran: GL, Have fun building vikings as your only realistic AA option and then losing the game because you were forced to build those vikings and land them all -> in which they all die ez -_- You wanted them to buff other units and not neft the terran ones. This is what happens. They give everyone awesome stuff and then ton it down to just slightly above reasonable levels. Oh no, I still think it's awesome they are taking that route with units and making them powerful. They buffed the mine. They buffed the tempest previous patch as well, and they also buffed the blinding cloud previous patch. Now they've double buffed blinding cloud, and double/triple buffed the tempest, and reverted previous nerfs to the battle hellion (it still has the bio flag on it which is a nerf). Guess they are taking it to the EXTREME yo I'm not a terran player so I obviously don't understand the units aswell... but how is the hellion having the bio tag a nerf? If you drop them with a medivac then they can be healed etc. I guess you take more dmg from archons... but it's not like you'd be using hellions to fight archons before either.... Helions were used as buffer before which with Bio Helions doesn't work against Archons. After that change they'rve basically become useless with Mech in TvP because nobody builds more then at best a 1-2 Medivacs for drop since it doesn't support your main army. If I Mech I build mines as buffer and not a single Helion. They just don't have a purpose in TvP in your army anymore. I say make medivacs initially just a dropship. A player can choose to upgrade it to heal either bio or mech. This will nerf early drop harrass, which is powerful enough without healing. It'll also give medivacs a role in the mech army. -edit- Give ghosts 35(+15 psionic) snipe. Vs psionic it will remain the same, but they will be a little more useful vs other units.
lol wtf no
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EPT
