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On October 27 2012 14:19 ZeromuS wrote:
Ok guys let me blow your mind:
The pulsar beam can be channeled at a range of 6 (maybe 6.5 need more testing) if you micro it correctly.
It casts at 5 range but can be channeled at 6 range. This should not be changed. It is fantastic.
How this works ?
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On October 27 2012 15:21 GARcher wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 15:18 Seiniyta wrote:
The oracle now is a lot of fun, though it does leave the Void Ray at a really akward place. Perhaps it should get a cloak upgrade at the dark shrine which makes the void ray a cloaked unit like a dark templar. Cloaked void rays...apparently this unit needs to be cheesier in the bronze leagues...
Getting a stargate and teching to Dark shrine isn't something you do really early game. At least, if you want to survive any basic attack.
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Canada13389 Posts
On October 27 2012 15:23 InVerno wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 14:19 ZeromuS wrote:
Ok guys let me blow your mind:
The pulsar beam can be channeled at a range of 6 (maybe 6.5 need more testing) if you micro it correctly.
It casts at 5 range but can be channeled at 6 range. This should not be changed. It is fantastic.
How this works ?
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7004691080
Image here:
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4713 Posts
Sorry, to burst your bubble, but that's not how it works.
If it breaks the game by synergizing too good with other spells/units then its bad.
You probably have no idea in regards to the magnitude of changes that need to be done to compensate for this, basically it just nullifies bio 100%, it kills the only play style viable for TvP and there is nothing to fall back on.
For bio to trade cost effectively it needs its mobility, it needs to be able to kite, it needs to be able to bait forcefields, it needs to be able to split and dodge storms, it needs to be able to quickly form concaves and arches, you remove the mobility you kill bio.
Far reaching changes would actually have to be made to re-balance that just for the sake of the spell staying in the game, either bio units are made stronger so they can survive the extra punishment they get, or they have to, you know buff tanks back to 60 damage, so that terrans actually have a proper zone control unit in the MU and a unit to properly rely on to fight against the protoss.
Either that or the spell itself will need to be nerfed or all associated spells. Time warp radius will probably need to be a radius of 2 and maybe a 25% slow, if that is not enough then maybe they need to nerf the damage of storm or colossus given that units can no longer escape their aoe. And if you nerf FF, Storm and TW, then you just make them useless without one another.
I really can't see TW staying the way it is, and I definitely can't see it staying with the protoss race, it just adds way too much to the race that already had the strongest aoe.
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Canada13389 Posts
On October 27 2012 15:29 Destructicon wrote:
Sorry, to burst your bubble, but that's not how it works.
If it breaks the game by synergizing too good with other spells/units then its bad.
You probably have no idea in regards to the magnitude of changes that need to be done to compensate for this, basically it just nullifies bio 100%, it kills the only play style viable for TvP and there is nothing to fall back on.
For bio to trade cost effectively it needs its mobility, it needs to be able to kite, it needs to be able to bait forcefields, it needs to be able to split and dodge storms, it needs to be able to quickly form concaves and arches, you remove the mobility you kill bio.
Far reaching changes would actually have to be made to re-balance that just for the sake of the spell staying in the game, either bio units are made stronger so they can survive the extra punishment they get, or they have to, you know buff tanks back to 60 damage, so that terrans actually have a proper zone control unit in the MU and a unit to properly rely on to fight against the protoss.
Either that or the spell itself will need to be nerfed or all associated spells. Time warp radius will probably need to be a radius of 2 and maybe a 25% slow, if that is not enough then maybe they need to nerf the damage of storm or colossus given that units can no longer escape their aoe. And if you nerf FF, Storm and TW, then you just make them useless without one another.
I really can't see TW staying the way it is, and I definitely can't see it staying with the protoss race, it just adds way too much to the race that already had the strongest aoe.
I think you are just assuming things without using it. I know its going to be changed. But you act as though its broken the game of Starcraft 2. I've used it some and it has yet to completely break anything. Its powerful and useful. But its cast range is not very big and later game in PvT you are going to have vikings that have range 9.
Sure it makes bio harder to pull off I can see that in my mind but bio doesn't need to be viable against EVERY SINGLE thing in the game at all times of the game. At some point a transition to higher tech should happen and Blizzard should work on making this higher tech more viable.
What race should get the spell? Zerg? They already have a full root. If anything fungal should have been time warp right from the beginning.
Terran? Are you really going to give terran time warp just because Protoss has it? I think this spell is 1000x better than entomb. The specifics can be worker on as time goes on as well. But to say terran has Zero response is completely disingenuous. EMP might become a decision to make between oracle vs HTs? If you don't open with oracles when do you get them? What timings exist if the protoss does open oracle? Controlling them isn't easy with their speed. If we remember the infestor its speed was Nerfed and this was considered a BUFF because it kept getting into terrible positions when Zergs were engaging.
One day is not enough time to say its broken. I for one love it in mineral lines, its way more fun than entomb and it can even block GAS if you see a GAS all in. Banelings? Ok, I know my gas is invested in oracles, I know I have a weak wall I can SLOW gas mining to give myself more TIME. Or I can Slow the banelings so they take FOREVER to get here.
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what about all the economy pumped into stargates and then oracles that isn't going into archons, templar or colossi? or sentries for that matter.
maybe the simplest widest reaching fix is for time warp to require a research? would make the unupgraded oracle kind of a retarded unit though.
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Canada13389 Posts
On October 27 2012 15:40 Doc Daneeka wrote:
what about all the economy pumped into stargates that isn't going into archons, templar or colossi? or sentries for that matter.
maybe the simplest widest reaching fix is for time warp to require a research? would make the unupgraded oracle kind of a retarded unit though.
I think the gas cost will end up being played with before anything else.
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On October 27 2012 15:29 Destructicon wrote:
Sorry, to burst your bubble, but that's not how it works.
If it breaks the game by synergizing too good with other spells/units then its bad.
You probably have no idea in regards to the magnitude of changes that need to be done to compensate for this, basically it just nullifies bio 100%, it kills the only play style viable for TvP and there is nothing to fall back on.
9 range is the range of a viking. I respect that you think this breaks the entire game, but I think testing it and waiting and watching might be a better way to see if in fact this is the case. In actual fact neither of us knows.
I love these changes, this is the most interesting balance patch since the beta started imo.
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4713 Posts
You have no idea how terran works if you say something like that.
As long as you have 3 different weapons and armor upgrades, and as long as you have so many supporting upgrades for bio, then bio should be viable, same with mech. And even so pure bio isn't viable it requires a lot of support units via Medivacs, Vikings and Ghosts for it to work. And given how terran production works, once you commit to a certain unit composition, either bio or mech, it better damn work, because you can't salvage those raxes, or convert them to factories.
And its not a problem of bio not being viable in all stages of the game, its a problem of bio just being viable in general, and TW is threatening its very viability. If you didn't read the description correctly it has a cast range of 9, that means that even with Vikings, the speed of the oracle alone guarantees that it will get close to cast its spell before it dies, but it doesn't need to, it can just skirt the sides of the terran army and cast the spell coming from an angle where the least vikings are, and then get out.
And actually I probably wouldn't even mind losing 1 or 2 oracles if it means I have a guaranteed shot at destroying the terran army, the cost of the oracle is pitiful in comparison to the cost of an entire army obliterated by colossus and storm.
Really, the only reason you probably aren't finding this to be an issues is because you don't have the mechanics to make it work, pro gamers will just abuse this to destroy terran bio.
Preferably I'd have the spell removed, I don't like micro limiting spells, at least you can react and move out of storm and blinding cloud instantly, you can't with this. If it had to be kept, I'd remove fungal and give it to zerg, or I'd remove FF and let toss keep it. But in no way I'd leave the spell for toss when they already have storm, colossus and FF. Its just too broken.
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Thank god for the new spine crawlers.
Can we get Hellbat changed back to Battle Hellion, or am I in the minority here?
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time warp is going to buff the toss death ball way to much... its going to promote A moving greatly...
why does blizz keep making these click and forget spells? like seriously that doesnt promote micro. cast it once, enemies are slowed, A move with ur colo, archon, and chargelots.
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On October 27 2012 16:09 Ballistixz wrote:
time warp is going to buff the toss death ball way to much... its going to promote A moving greatly...
why does blizz keep making these click and forget spells?
To cater to the people who are too blind to see this.
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On October 27 2012 14:50 Destructicon wrote:
Overall, I'm very worried with the direction Blizzard is going, it still feels like they have no clue what they are doing, just trowing ideas randomly out there without any thought as to the consequences of what these changes will do.
just have to respond to this
first, "without any thought as to the consequences" is a pretty brazen statement to make about a huge professional game developer like blizzard that puts loads of money on the line to make these games. same with "no clue what they are doing", balance may not be moving fast enough to make the hardcore fans totally happy but the fact that they've been so measured and gradual with balance changes in WoL since release should speak volumes about their intentions.
second, it's pretty clear what direction/overarching plan they have for HotS multiplayer. broadly, it's to fix problems with WoL, which WILL get stale if something isn't added, and to do have any significant impact they'll have to add units and mechanics, because there are just certain characteristics of the engine that have limited WoL's skill ceiling. blizzard couldn't have known that when they designed it. this isn't brood war - there's a relatively large community built in and "E-sports" has been involved since day 1, so they have to take both short term and long term issues into account, and can't be too hasty.
more specifically, HotS is adding units that A: provide space control, and B: need to be babysat to be optimally effective. viper, swarm host, oracle, and widow mines all satisfy goal A to varying degrees, and every new unit except perhaps the tempest satisfy goal B. then there's specific unit goals, like the mcore, which from the start has been intended to increase flexibility of movement and improve map control for toss. or the new zerg units - swarm host has been explicitly stated to give zerg more ability to apply pressure, and it's been doing that job since HotS beta launched, and blinding cloud has been shown to have a similar effect lategame against maxed out, fully teched armies that would otherwise be difficult to approach for zerg by any means besides a brood lord push from which there is no return because brood lords are so damn slow (as a side effect requiring more troop repositioning and micro from the opponent, something this community has been clamoring for since WoL was released.) the goal of making air more viable for toss is being met to some degree by the tempest, which is currently acting as a stopgap between basic stargate play and fleet beacon, and we're already seeing carriers show up more than they ever did in WoL beta and arguably WoL post-release. the oracle and mcore only strengthen this. then another stated goal has been to make terran mech viable in more situations, and the warhound was so good at this job that it got flat-out removed. widow mine is attempting to do this job by itself and sort of succeeding, but even if it is ultimately not enough, the SC2 team has already said they intend to redesign the warhound and reintroduce it later in the beta.
so basically everything blizzard has said they intend to do with HotS is being done to varying degrees of success. you can argue that the balance is too wacky right now, or that specific spells or mechanics aren't good, but to say they don't have any overarching plan is sheer ridiculousness. and i don't want to sound like a fanboy, i'm just trying to be pragmatic here.
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On October 27 2012 06:03 Noocta wrote:
I'm a little bit worried than Time Warp + any kind of aoe damage will make it impossible to play Boi against protoss. :/
How do you dodge storm if your whole deathball is slowed from 9 range away ?
Vikings can't even prevent that :O
Seems a lot like vortex, where if you hit the money time warp and then blanket storm, it's gg
Would be late game obviously, if extra tech is required for star port etc, but doesn't Terran struggle enough late game?
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On October 27 2012 15:29 Destructicon wrote:Far reaching changes would actually have to be made to re-balance that just for the sake of the spell staying in the game, either bio units are made stronger so they can survive the extra punishment they get, or they have to, you know buff tanks back to 60 damage, so that terrans actually have a proper zone control unit in the MU and a unit to properly rely on to fight against the protoss.
I actually think that Siege Tank damage could use an increase back to pre-nerf levels unless they improve the mines substantially somehow.
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On October 27 2012 16:39 dcemuser wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 15:29 Destructicon wrote:Far reaching changes would actually have to be made to re-balance that just for the sake of the spell staying in the game, either bio units are made stronger so they can survive the extra punishment they get, or they have to, you know buff tanks back to 60 damage, so that terrans actually have a proper zone control unit in the MU and a unit to properly rely on to fight against the protoss. I actually think that Siege Tank damage could use an increase back to pre-nerf levels unless they improve the mines substantially somehow.
That would be too strong. They would one shot Zerglings when upgraded. Plus it's not gonna do shit against Immortals.
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Time warp + storm = gg 
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Canada13389 Posts
Time warp is really going to help a lot vs Mutalisks as well. Part of the problem in dealing with mutas PvZ is their speed and mobility and the fact that its very hard to land a really good storm. So time warp - storm or blink under will be spectacular if a protoss can land it well in PvZ.
Mass mutas will still be hard but with good play not AS hard to deal with.
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On October 27 2012 13:12 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 12:55 aZealot wrote:On October 27 2012 11:57 Dvriel wrote:On October 27 2012 11:20 vthree wrote:On October 27 2012 10:13 aZealot wrote:On October 27 2012 10:06 s3rp wrote:On October 27 2012 10:00 aZealot wrote:On October 27 2012 09:51 s3rp wrote:On October 27 2012 09:37 aZealot wrote:On October 27 2012 09:26 Snowbear wrote:As a terran I am really not looking forward to HOTS. Atm it's insane how hard terran is in WOL for someone that cant practice 6+ hours everyday. You would expect that blizzard would help us in HOTS, but it seems the other way around: it gets even harder  Yeah, it would suck. But DB did say, long ago, that because Terran was the most complete race in SC2, they were hesitant to add too much to Terran. That said, it would be nice to see a small buff to mech - maybe by a small buff to Tanks? If so, I hope it's balanced vs Stalkers as the Hellbat has gone a long way to nullifying Zealot heavy armies in PvT. Of course, if they do buff the Tanks substantively, it may be grounds to tweak the Immortal and return it to being a Gateway unit. WhiteRa does look like he is having a lot of fun, though. His games, so far, have all been active with plenty of action. Terran needs BIG changes so they can actually use higher tech units . The investment for BC's , Ravens hell even Thors ( in TvP ) is huge . The payoff ? Not so much. And now with so many new options on Zerg on Toss side your still suck with playing lowtech armies against high tech shit because you don't have any lategame options to tech to that don't take years to get to. I can't pretend to knowing too much about Terran, but big changes? Would not a Tank buff (say damage) and a Thor buff (remove energy and strike cannon) be sufficient? Sure, it's not sexy, but Terran apart from a few minor holes is a complete race. I don't think anyone has ever seriously suggested that they absolutely need major new units and abilities. No? I can understand Terran player's pov, though. It does suck seeing candy distributed to P and Z with T at the back of the line. From a Protoss perspective though, Protoss in WOL has always been limited, IMO. Powerful but limited. If these HoTS developments continue, I think we will see an explosion of creativity from Protoss players which will help all P match-ups. Heck, Gateway units, Robo, Stargate, FF, Timewarp, Warpgates, Templars, Mamaship. What's not to love as P? Terran is NOT complete in HotS. They have useless high tech . Most of the issues that limited the other races have been well changed in HotS so far. Terran not so much. There still no endgame army to tech to that doesn't need 4+Bases + lightyears of time. BC's are still way too bad for what the cost . Ravens again are very meh and need years of setup time before becoming effective. Ghosts are only a niche unit ( so are Reapers ) . They also still have at least 3 useless upgrades. The units nobody used in WoL will still not be used in HotS without changes. I did not say there were complete in HoTS. Only that they were the most complete race in WOL and thus requiring the least attention. (DB said as much in an interview a few months ago.) Tbh, I don't see Terran needing major changes other than buffs to some of their higher tech. Ghosts need to be looked at though, I agree. I did not life the Ghost nerf, btw. Give it time, mate. The beta has been stated to be a months long process. Positive changes to Terran will come. Maybe you should just be happy for your P and Z brothers until that time comes? We will then rejoice with you. I would say that terrans is the most complete race up to tier 2. Their late game units are pretty bleh and their production just cannot keep up with the other 2 races in the late game. Having some core units spread into 3 upgrade path also hurts (bio, mech, air). There is the big issue for Terran in SC2: production.We still use the BW way, while Protoss have evolved to WARP and Zerg to Spawn Larvae.I agree its the most complete race,but only to tier 2.Later it becomes a nightmare.30 mins to make Ravens usefull and no limit to make BCs. Not only this,but as you said Upgrades research is another handicap.One for BIO,one for Ground and another for AIR.Carapace affect both Range and Melee Zergs.But they got Air,same as P and T.Protoss upgrades Gate and Robo units at same time.WHY???The Zerg caparace is understandable for every unit,but why Robo and Gate Units share upgrades?A stalker is a robotic unit,so as Immortal,sentry and Colossus,so it make sense,but then why Zealots share upgrads with them?A Marauder is almost robotic unit.Its a Suit,same as Iron Man,so why cant Tank and Marauder upgrades be the same? Huh? What are you on about? Marines, probably the best all-around unit in the game, are built 2 at a time from Reactors. Same with Hellions, Medivacs, Vikings etc. All races have production boosts in their own respective ways. The only issue, from a Terran perspective, is Protoss warpgate when 200/200 and Zerg production capacity with Larvae Inject. Even then, Protoss WG only affects GW units and the Zealot remax from WOL is being countered with the addition of the Hellbat so that you hardly see Zealot heavy armies in HotS PvT anymore. (Unlike Zerg we don't get to warp our Robo and SG units.) Secondly, Protoss upgrades have always been that way from SC1 onwards. Remember that Protoss defensive upgrades are shared between armour and shields. Shield upgrades are expensive (as they affect buildings too) and are rarely used in active PvX play due to their heavy costs. You usually only see them in the very late game, and when Protoss can afford them. This is why the basic Protoss ground army shares upgrades. It is also because Protoss armies are always synergistic and usually involve a mix of Robo and GW units. We can't go just GW or just Robo. Two upgrade paths on top of expensive units, expensive structures, and with the armour/shield divergence would be unaffordable and ineffective for any Protoss player. I can get why you are peeved off. But your opinion here is just wrong. Well,I was only thinking in Late Game.If you lose your army the best race on remaxing is the Zerg,then Protoss and then Terran.Marines use reactor,but it doesnt send them exactly where you wish on the opposit corner of the map,no?Its not only a issue,is a BIG ISSUE when the final battle is on.No matter if you got 4000mins and P 1000,he just remax so quick that you lose. You are right.Protoss cant separate upgrades,but you still can go only GW units.Zealot,Sentry,Stalker into HT/Archons is totally possible and win lot of games.There is no strong need of Colossi or Immortals in every PvT.But let me ask you: How do T play vs Z?Bio upgrades+Tank or Viking Attack upgrades.Tanks for banelings and Vikings for BLs.Why cant Protoss do the same?If you wanna go Colossi in TvP go and research Attack upgrades in the Roboforge,because is almost the only Robo unit you will use in this MU.I wish to see TvP in WoL with Colossus without upgrades supporting the GW units.It will be the same as the tank for Terran,dont you think? Terran can go Mech in TvZ,but only BIO is pretty hard because of infestors.
Yes, Protoss can. But every race has unique features that make it what it is in SC2. Tbh, I really don't see this as a major issue. We've had 2 years and more of WOL and it's not broken the match-up by any means. And now in HotS you have a unit that counters Zealots hard. It's difficult to really talk about this in any depth as what we are doing here is trying to analyse HotS beta by way of referring to our experience in WOL. This is hard to do because as the beta runs its course and HotS is released a whole new meta will arise and change as players explore the game (and Blizzard patches).
Gateway into Archon/HT is possible but is not a staple of Protoss play (for one thing, it is hard countered by Ghosts and is ineffective against Roach heavy armies). It is used sometimes depending on the MU but has usually got to be transitioned into the more standard Protoss composition which involves all the Protoss army. As for the Immortal and Colossus, these are needed not just in PvT but also in other P match-ups, no? More to the point, they are almost always needed. In no match up can a Protoss consistently put just a Gateway army onto the field, or just a Robo army into the field (unless I am playing 4v4 and go Robo+Colossus). And that is fine. Every race has strengths. Every race has weaknesses. Every race has constraints.
As to TvZ, I can't say mate. Again, referring to TvZ in WOL, I hope Terran continue to adapt and explore their race and to find solutions to their problems. (If anything, a nerf to Zerg may be required.) I don't believe looking at upgrades is the way to go though. That would be the easy "fix" (maybe) and require little innovation from Terran players. Small buffs to Terran high tech (+ ghost?) may be the nudge required, but anything more takes the satisfaction out of figuring problems in SC2. That's bad.
But, again, it's hard to see what any of this means with respect to HotS as it is too early to tell. This patch, here, is only the first day of, IIRC, the 4th or 5th patch of the Beta? With many months to go before release probably somewhere in the middle of 2013. Then the real discovery process of the game will begin again for all races. (And unlike last time, I hope Blizzard aren't trigger happy with the balance patches and let the players sort shit out themselves.)
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On October 27 2012 16:47 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 13:12 Dvriel wrote:On October 27 2012 12:55 aZealot wrote:On October 27 2012 11:57 Dvriel wrote:On October 27 2012 11:20 vthree wrote:On October 27 2012 10:13 aZealot wrote:On October 27 2012 10:06 s3rp wrote:On October 27 2012 10:00 aZealot wrote:On October 27 2012 09:51 s3rp wrote:On October 27 2012 09:37 aZealot wrote:[quote] Yeah, it would suck. But DB did say, long ago, that because Terran was the most complete race in SC2, they were hesitant to add too much to Terran. That said, it would be nice to see a small buff to mech - maybe by a small buff to Tanks? If so, I hope it's balanced vs Stalkers as the Hellbat has gone a long way to nullifying Zealot heavy armies in PvT. Of course, if they do buff the Tanks substantively, it may be grounds to tweak the Immortal and return it to being a Gateway unit. WhiteRa does look like he is having a lot of fun, though. His games, so far, have all been active with plenty of action. Terran needs BIG changes so they can actually use higher tech units . The investment for BC's , Ravens hell even Thors ( in TvP ) is huge . The payoff ? Not so much. And now with so many new options on Zerg on Toss side your still suck with playing lowtech armies against high tech shit because you don't have any lategame options to tech to that don't take years to get to. I can't pretend to knowing too much about Terran, but big changes? Would not a Tank buff (say damage) and a Thor buff (remove energy and strike cannon) be sufficient? Sure, it's not sexy, but Terran apart from a few minor holes is a complete race. I don't think anyone has ever seriously suggested that they absolutely need major new units and abilities. No? I can understand Terran player's pov, though. It does suck seeing candy distributed to P and Z with T at the back of the line. From a Protoss perspective though, Protoss in WOL has always been limited, IMO. Powerful but limited. If these HoTS developments continue, I think we will see an explosion of creativity from Protoss players which will help all P match-ups. Heck, Gateway units, Robo, Stargate, FF, Timewarp, Warpgates, Templars, Mamaship. What's not to love as P? Terran is NOT complete in HotS. They have useless high tech . Most of the issues that limited the other races have been well changed in HotS so far. Terran not so much. There still no endgame army to tech to that doesn't need 4+Bases + lightyears of time. BC's are still way too bad for what the cost . Ravens again are very meh and need years of setup time before becoming effective. Ghosts are only a niche unit ( so are Reapers ) . They also still have at least 3 useless upgrades. The units nobody used in WoL will still not be used in HotS without changes. I did not say there were complete in HoTS. Only that they were the most complete race in WOL and thus requiring the least attention. (DB said as much in an interview a few months ago.) Tbh, I don't see Terran needing major changes other than buffs to some of their higher tech. Ghosts need to be looked at though, I agree. I did not life the Ghost nerf, btw. Give it time, mate. The beta has been stated to be a months long process. Positive changes to Terran will come. Maybe you should just be happy for your P and Z brothers until that time comes? We will then rejoice with you. I would say that terrans is the most complete race up to tier 2. Their late game units are pretty bleh and their production just cannot keep up with the other 2 races in the late game. Having some core units spread into 3 upgrade path also hurts (bio, mech, air). There is the big issue for Terran in SC2: production.We still use the BW way, while Protoss have evolved to WARP and Zerg to Spawn Larvae.I agree its the most complete race,but only to tier 2.Later it becomes a nightmare.30 mins to make Ravens usefull and no limit to make BCs. Not only this,but as you said Upgrades research is another handicap.One for BIO,one for Ground and another for AIR.Carapace affect both Range and Melee Zergs.But they got Air,same as P and T.Protoss upgrades Gate and Robo units at same time.WHY???The Zerg caparace is understandable for every unit,but why Robo and Gate Units share upgrades?A stalker is a robotic unit,so as Immortal,sentry and Colossus,so it make sense,but then why Zealots share upgrads with them?A Marauder is almost robotic unit.Its a Suit,same as Iron Man,so why cant Tank and Marauder upgrades be the same? Huh? What are you on about? Marines, probably the best all-around unit in the game, are built 2 at a time from Reactors. Same with Hellions, Medivacs, Vikings etc. All races have production boosts in their own respective ways. The only issue, from a Terran perspective, is Protoss warpgate when 200/200 and Zerg production capacity with Larvae Inject. Even then, Protoss WG only affects GW units and the Zealot remax from WOL is being countered with the addition of the Hellbat so that you hardly see Zealot heavy armies in HotS PvT anymore. (Unlike Zerg we don't get to warp our Robo and SG units.) Secondly, Protoss upgrades have always been that way from SC1 onwards. Remember that Protoss defensive upgrades are shared between armour and shields. Shield upgrades are expensive (as they affect buildings too) and are rarely used in active PvX play due to their heavy costs. You usually only see them in the very late game, and when Protoss can afford them. This is why the basic Protoss ground army shares upgrades. It is also because Protoss armies are always synergistic and usually involve a mix of Robo and GW units. We can't go just GW or just Robo. Two upgrade paths on top of expensive units, expensive structures, and with the armour/shield divergence would be unaffordable and ineffective for any Protoss player. I can get why you are peeved off. But your opinion here is just wrong. Well,I was only thinking in Late Game.If you lose your army the best race on remaxing is the Zerg,then Protoss and then Terran.Marines use reactor,but it doesnt send them exactly where you wish on the opposit corner of the map,no?Its not only a issue,is a BIG ISSUE when the final battle is on.No matter if you got 4000mins and P 1000,he just remax so quick that you lose. You are right.Protoss cant separate upgrades,but you still can go only GW units.Zealot,Sentry,Stalker into HT/Archons is totally possible and win lot of games.There is no strong need of Colossi or Immortals in every PvT.But let me ask you: How do T play vs Z?Bio upgrades+Tank or Viking Attack upgrades.Tanks for banelings and Vikings for BLs.Why cant Protoss do the same?If you wanna go Colossi in TvP go and research Attack upgrades in the Roboforge,because is almost the only Robo unit you will use in this MU.I wish to see TvP in WoL with Colossus without upgrades supporting the GW units.It will be the same as the tank for Terran,dont you think? Terran can go Mech in TvZ,but only BIO is pretty hard because of infestors. Yes, Protoss can. But every race has unique features that make it what it is in SC2. Tbh, I really don't see this as a major issue. We've had 2 years and more of WOL and it's not broken the match-up by any means. And now in HotS you have a unit that counters Zealots hard. It's difficult to really talk about this in any depth as what we are doing here is trying to analyse HotS beta by way of referring to our experience in WOL. This is hard to do because as the beta runs its course and HotS is released a whole new meta will arise and change as players explore the game (and Blizzard patches). Gateway into Archon/HT is possible but is not a staple of Protoss play (for one thing, it is hard countered by Ghosts and is ineffective against Roach heavy armies). It is used sometimes depending on the MU but has usually got to be transitioned into the more standard Protoss composition which involves all the Protoss army. As for the Immortal and Colossus, these are needed not just in PvT but also in other P match-ups, no? More to the point, they are almost always needed. In no match up can a Protoss consistently put just a Gateway army onto the field, or just a Robo army into the field (unless I am playing 4v4 and go Robo+Colossus). And that is fine. Every race has strengths. Every race has weaknesses. Every race has constraints. As to TvZ, I can't say mate. Again, referring to TvZ in WOL, I hope Terran continue to adapt and explore their race and to find solutions to their problems. (If anything, a nerf to Zerg may be required.) I don't believe looking at upgrades is the way to go though. That would be the easy "fix" (maybe) and require little innovation from Terran players. Small buffs to Terran high tech (+ ghost?) may be the nudge required, but anything more takes the satisfaction out of figuring problems in SC2. That's bad. But, again, it's hard to see what any of this means with respect to HotS as it is too early to tell. This patch, here, is only the first day of, IIRC, the 4th or 5th patch of the Beta? With many months to go before release probably somewhere in the middle of 2013. Then the real discovery process of the game will begin again for all races. (And unlike last time, I hope Blizzard aren't trigger happy with the balance patches and let the players sort shit out themselves.)
It is hard to not be trigger happy when there are so many Competitive tournaments being played. Take the ghost nerf. Lets assume they did not nerf snipe and EMP. Could you know how long before Z and P to 'sort it out'. Does Blizzard wait 6 months and all the tournaments are won by Terran with ghosts?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/9txUl)
