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On November 07 2012 07:14 baldgye wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 07:12 Sissors wrote:
Lately I have been trying mech vs toss in WOL (diamond). And I would call it exactly the opposite: Mech is not viable, and any viability it has comes due to protoss bad unit composition and often just being completely stupid, and still they can win often enough with that.
To clarify: the stupid part comes from many toss who dont change anything in their unit composition, follow their plan blindly, and do a frontal assault on the complete mech army (no siege tanks defending other locations since you cant afford to weaken your main army) with 2-3 immortals in their army.
The bad unit composition comes from their lack of blink stalkers/generally abusing lack of mobility. They dont realise that while terran bio has slightly more mobility than a toss army, a toss army has far more mobility than a terran mech army. Now BFHs are great against zealot warpins/DTs, and quite often running BFHs into a toss expansion is like stealing candy from a baby. But there is simply nothing in a mech army that can deal with blink stalkers raiding. BFHs dont do anything, and sure you can place siege tanks on strategic locations, but that really isnt realistic against any decent sized group of blink stalkers.
TL;DR: My personal experience is that the only reason mech works slightly, is because protoss dont have experience playing against it. So.... you think its not viable becasue protoss's do dumb attacks that kill you out-right?
Summarized: yes. Even with dumb attacks that play right into the hands of mech instead of abusing its massive weaknesses against toss they can often enough still win. A frontal assault on a sieged up mech army which has no units defending other locations is pretty much the wet dream of a mech army. Yet still then toss has a good chance to beat it. What do you think will happen when they start considering the weaknesses of a mech army?
Edit: Regarding to previous post, indeed when you get so far you can do a massive tech switch to UPGRADED battlecruisers you get a very strong army. Generally not too hard to get rid of my hellions, so what is left then is a siege tank + battlecruiser army, which complement each other quite nicely. (Stalkers and HTs are most dangerous for battlecruisers, and siege tanks deal with them fine). However while it is very strong, it also is a one shot army assuming the toss isnt far behind: in case of mutual destruction you simply cannot remax such an army in a realistic time compared to toss mass warpins.
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On November 07 2012 03:07 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 02:55 Qikz wrote:On November 07 2012 01:07 TheLunatic wrote:
Mech is fine, the difficulty to master it is why people want all these buffs to it. So they can win as easily with it as they do with the quick moving multi pronged bio It really isn't. At the highest level, mech is still not viable against toss. In HotS? Can you give any examples or describe some problems mech has, with reference to games, where there are gaping holes in Mech play that makes it not just difficult, but completely unviable?
Just as in WoL, Mech is still not viable against Protoss in HotS, because HotS is not really changing anything for Terran late game. I am only in Gold league, but what really bothers me when playing against Protoss, is the fact that i Protoss Deathballs a-moving over Widow Mines basicly unharmed. Atleast compared to how badly Storms tear Bio play apart. And even though Battle Hellions sure are very usefull against Zealots, it is just not enough to compensate for horrible Siege Tanks.
As mentioned i am only in Gold league but at this point i really feel like Terran got the short end. I know that the game should be balanced around top level play, but i really don't think that it is fun to play as Terran against the new Protoss and Zerg units.
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On November 07 2012 07:35 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 07:14 baldgye wrote:On November 07 2012 07:12 Sissors wrote:
Lately I have been trying mech vs toss in WOL (diamond). And I would call it exactly the opposite: Mech is not viable, and any viability it has comes due to protoss bad unit composition and often just being completely stupid, and still they can win often enough with that.
To clarify: the stupid part comes from many toss who dont change anything in their unit composition, follow their plan blindly, and do a frontal assault on the complete mech army (no siege tanks defending other locations since you cant afford to weaken your main army) with 2-3 immortals in their army.
The bad unit composition comes from their lack of blink stalkers/generally abusing lack of mobility. They dont realise that while terran bio has slightly more mobility than a toss army, a toss army has far more mobility than a terran mech army. Now BFHs are great against zealot warpins/DTs, and quite often running BFHs into a toss expansion is like stealing candy from a baby. But there is simply nothing in a mech army that can deal with blink stalkers raiding. BFHs dont do anything, and sure you can place siege tanks on strategic locations, but that really isnt realistic against any decent sized group of blink stalkers.
TL;DR: My personal experience is that the only reason mech works slightly, is because protoss dont have experience playing against it. So.... you think its not viable becasue protoss's do dumb attacks that kill you out-right? Summarized: yes. Even with dumb attacks that play right into the hands of mech instead of abusing its massive weaknesses against toss they can often enough still win. A frontal assault on a sieged up mech army which has no units defending other locations is pretty much the wet dream of a mech army. Yet still then toss has a good chance to beat it. What do you think will happen when they start considering the weaknesses of a mech army?
If you're dying to mech from out right pushed from protoss, then you're not meching correctally. Mech dsn't just die straight out to gateway/robo immortal pushes, unless your doing something wrong.
With mines you can slow down protoss's attacks and counter with hellion run bys while defending and not dying. It's possible its just harder than going bio becasue that's what every terran is used to only ever doing.
If you play the build right you start off with units that not only help deal with protoss's 2base pushes, but delay them to such an extent that they just don't happen at all.
Banshee's, Helions, Widdow Mines... terran has the best way to contain and do early economy damage, and going mech only makes that stronger.
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Well, today I had some pretty serious success with widow mine, viking, seige tank. If it proves to actually work well, I'll post a guide.
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On November 07 2012 07:52 baldgye wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 07:35 Sissors wrote:On November 07 2012 07:14 baldgye wrote:On November 07 2012 07:12 Sissors wrote:
Lately I have been trying mech vs toss in WOL (diamond). And I would call it exactly the opposite: Mech is not viable, and any viability it has comes due to protoss bad unit composition and often just being completely stupid, and still they can win often enough with that.
To clarify: the stupid part comes from many toss who dont change anything in their unit composition, follow their plan blindly, and do a frontal assault on the complete mech army (no siege tanks defending other locations since you cant afford to weaken your main army) with 2-3 immortals in their army.
The bad unit composition comes from their lack of blink stalkers/generally abusing lack of mobility. They dont realise that while terran bio has slightly more mobility than a toss army, a toss army has far more mobility than a terran mech army. Now BFHs are great against zealot warpins/DTs, and quite often running BFHs into a toss expansion is like stealing candy from a baby. But there is simply nothing in a mech army that can deal with blink stalkers raiding. BFHs dont do anything, and sure you can place siege tanks on strategic locations, but that really isnt realistic against any decent sized group of blink stalkers.
TL;DR: My personal experience is that the only reason mech works slightly, is because protoss dont have experience playing against it. So.... you think its not viable becasue protoss's do dumb attacks that kill you out-right? Summarized: yes. Even with dumb attacks that play right into the hands of mech instead of abusing its massive weaknesses against toss they can often enough still win. A frontal assault on a sieged up mech army which has no units defending other locations is pretty much the wet dream of a mech army. Yet still then toss has a good chance to beat it. What do you think will happen when they start considering the weaknesses of a mech army? If you're dying to mech from out right pushed from protoss, then you're not meching correctally. Mech dsn't just die straight out to gateway/robo immortal pushes, unless your doing something wrong. With mines you can slow down protoss's attacks and counter with hellion run bys while defending and not dying. It's possible its just harder than going bio becasue that's what every terran is used to only ever doing. If you play the build right you start off with units that not only help deal with protoss's 2base pushes, but delay them to such an extent that they just don't happen at all. Banshee's, Helions, Widdow Mines... terran has the best way to contain and do early economy damage, and going mech only makes that stronger.
You forget Tempests. They can force Terran to unsiege and lose position. Banshees can't do shit against air and can't be reactored. Also the more vikings you have, the less ground army you have since mech is so supply heavy.
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Tempest are not so much an issue when playing mech. Just get vikings and raven for PDDs, and you are safe. Then, amove with your vkiings + tanks when you think you can do it.
The biggest problem as mech is the harass with the warpin mechanics. You need to build a big reinforced base : only planetary fortress and turrets, everywhere.
Mass immortals is also a big problem. Dunno how to counter it properly...
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On November 19 2012 07:26 Insoleet wrote:
Tempest are not so much an issue when playing mech. Just get vikings and raven for PDDs, and you are safe. Then, amove with your vkiings + tanks when you think you can do it.
The biggest problem as mech is the harass with the warpin mechanics. You need to build a big reinforced base : only planetary fortress and turrets, everywhere.
Mass immortals is also a big problem. Dunno how to counter it properly...
bio counters immortals ;]
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On November 19 2012 07:26 Insoleet wrote:
Mass immortals is also a big problem. Dunno how to counter it properly...
It is simple: remove HS. Or make it as was stated by QxC in his balance memorandum.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On November 19 2012 07:49 blublub wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 07:26 Insoleet wrote:
Tempest are not so much an issue when playing mech. Just get vikings and raven for PDDs, and you are safe. Then, amove with your vkiings + tanks when you think you can do it.
The biggest problem as mech is the harass with the warpin mechanics. You need to build a big reinforced base : only planetary fortress and turrets, everywhere.
Mass immortals is also a big problem. Dunno how to counter it properly... bio counters immortals ;]
You may be missing the point of this thread.
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honestly blizzard can get mech working if they want to , they already showed that by putting in the warhound ( the haywire missile in particular) got mech to work, since the haywire is key in removing the immortal harden shields.
If i was blizzard , i'd propose a brand new unit and rework some of the factory .
My proposal
Concept Art something like this when it opens up.
![[image loading]](http://i50.tinypic.com/121tzev.jpg)
- Create a new unit called the roller mech warrior .Remove widow mine from factory and put it in on this unit instead.
it has 2 modes
MODE 1 ( roller engaged)
In this mode it looks like a spinning wheel and has the ability to drop widow mines and has a very basic weak projectile atttack. It is relatively fast but not to fast. It drops 2 widow mines per unit built.
MODE 2 ( Stationary mode) . while in this mode the unit cannot drop widow mines nor does it have a basic attack.
In stationary mode, the roller opens up and a big gun appears from the center. This unit is completely stationary in this mode, and maybe gets added survive-ability. In this mode the unit will shoot haywire missiles to mechanical units only. Autocast can be turned off, so specific targeting can be achieved if needed. Cooldown of the haywires would be up to blizzard to balance. (less than what was on the warhound thats for sure).
How i envision this unit working? Basically like a vulture and a stand up fighter . Because it has 2 modes it will require micro and its a very positional based unit so it works with the intentions on how mech should be played ( positional based).
These roller mech units would be out raiding by dropping widow mines accompanied with a couple hellions. Then when an actual battle happens they can go stationary and shoot haywires to mechanical units.
This will make tvp mech viable and it will help in tvt when it becomes tank stalemates as it will be a tank buster.
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On November 19 2012 08:15 johnny123 wrote:
honestly blizzard can get mech working if they want to , they already showed that by putting in the warhound ( the haywire missile in particular) got mech to work, since the haywire is key in removing the immortal harden shields.
But they removed it and have no plans for anything to take it's place.
Blizzard is perfectly aware that mech still doesn't work - we just don't know if they still plan to make a serous go at fixing that.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On November 19 2012 08:22 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 08:15 johnny123 wrote:
honestly blizzard can get mech working if they want to , they already showed that by putting in the warhound ( the haywire missile in particular) got mech to work, since the haywire is key in removing the immortal harden shields.
But they removed it and have no plans for anything to take it's place. Blizzard is perfectly aware that mech still doesn't work - we just don't know if they still plan to make a serous go at fixing that.
We do, Dustin Browder said they're still very much interested and working on making mech work in TvP in an interview yesterday. ^^
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United States4883 Posts
In my experience so far in the beta, early game for terran is MUCH improved with the widow mine and much easier to get off the ground. However, the biggest problem still comes in the mid- to late-game where the protoss army is still just...better. Even if you start to get up your super thor/BC army, the most difficult thing in the world is a lategame max army followed by the mass zealot warp in. It's the SAME problem bio faces, but it's even more difficult to deal with using mech. Not entirely sure how to solve that problem other than make mech a little more than evenly matched with a maxed protoss army.
However, from a protoss perspective, seeing mech is an indicator to start double stargate phoenix production, which is pretty sweet. I've been really having fun in this matchup.
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What about giving the hellbat a new ability: Hardened Stance
It is an ability similar to the Warcraft 3 footman: raising its shield to reduce incoming damage while slowing its own movement speed. This ability can help increase tanks's overall survivability against chargelots, immortals and colossus thus making it possible to use mech in tvp.
It's up to blizzard to balance it in terms of how much damage reduction and whether this ability is researchable etc.
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If Blizz would take out the fingers out of their A****, they could find some simple solutions. Energy bar: Just remove it on the vannilla BC and Thor. Make it re-appear if the player researches Strike cannon or Yamamoto
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On November 19 2012 07:26 Insoleet wrote:
Tempest are not so much an issue when playing mech. Just get vikings and raven for PDDs, and you are safe. Then, amove with your vkiings + tanks when you think you can do it.
The biggest problem as mech is the harass with the warpin mechanics. You need to build a big reinforced base : only planetary fortress and turrets, everywhere.
Mass immortals is also a big problem. Dunno how to counter it properly...
It does not work this way.
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On November 19 2012 21:36 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 07:26 Insoleet wrote:
Tempest are not so much an issue when playing mech. Just get vikings and raven for PDDs, and you are safe. Then, amove with your vkiings + tanks when you think you can do it.
The biggest problem as mech is the harass with the warpin mechanics. You need to build a big reinforced base : only planetary fortress and turrets, everywhere.
Mass immortals is also a big problem. Dunno how to counter it properly... It does not work this way.
There's obviously a bit of exageration in my talks. But when blizzard will give a way for terran to fight immortals, they will be safe to macro safely.
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On November 19 2012 09:05 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 08:22 pmp10 wrote:On November 19 2012 08:15 johnny123 wrote:
honestly blizzard can get mech working if they want to , they already showed that by putting in the warhound ( the haywire missile in particular) got mech to work, since the haywire is key in removing the immortal harden shields.
But they removed it and have no plans for anything to take it's place. Blizzard is perfectly aware that mech still doesn't work - we just don't know if they still plan to make a serous go at fixing that. We do, Dustin Browder said they're still very much interested and working on making mech work in TvP in an interview yesterday. ^^
That's nice to hear but Blizzards record with actions is a little spotty in this regard.
They left a warhound sized hole in mech TvP and it will take quite a lot to fill it.
Considering all the complaining widow mine brought about I'm not sure Blizzard has the backbone to keep any such fix in-game. Assuming they can produce it.
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All they need to do is remove the energy from Thor to allow a mech army to withstand some damage.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On November 20 2012 08:05 Psychobabas wrote:
All they need to do is remove the energy from Thor to allow a mech army to withstand some damage.
I'm honestly not seeing how the thor will do anything. They still get owned by immortals and barely do anything to archons/zealots. Those three units are what make mech really hard, not stalkers (the only unit thors are good against).
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EPT
