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On November 06 2012 09:00 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 05:08 link0 wrote:On October 31 2012 12:42 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 31 2012 05:42 link0 wrote:On October 31 2012 02:59 MockHamill wrote:
I think the solution for making mech viable in TvP is quite simple. Just give Tanks an upgrade for 10 bonus damage against shields.
By making it in an upgrade it comes too late for making 1/1/1 too strong. And if the bonus damage only applies to shields it does not affect the other matchups. If this upgrades the damage against Hardened Shields, then it may work. Also, battle hellions need to be reverted back to full mechanical, not bio. Archons are just way too hard of a counter. And counter to Archons is 5 ghosts. The problem is that 5 ghosts cost as much as 5 immortals. Do you really want to have 5 more immortals against your mech army? EMP's AOE is way too small to be effective against archons/immortals, which are very bulky units that rarely clump. They are effective, just not early on. Mid game is OK sometimes (third base), late game they rape, because you should have like 160 supply army vs his 130 supply army, and because you have much more minerals to make walls and such, so that ur tanks can rape the immortals very fast. That's for immortals I mean. It still works somewhat for archons, but not well. For that, Thor/Hellion heavy army rapes. Unless if it's late game where your army supply is much bigger, where it's ok to still get ghosts since you will have more supply to keep enough tanks.
You don't understand that a Protoss player can choose not to engage once EMP'd. A mech army cannot chase after a Protoss deathball.
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Any time a protoss runs after getting emp'd, scan them to keep tabs on their location and then build one or two planetary fortress in the middle of the map. Keep doing this and you can choke them out.
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SC2 protoss seems designed to counter mech. Blink, charge and immortals all fuck mech up too much.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On November 06 2012 09:59 Elementsu wrote:
SC2 protoss seems designed to counter mech. Blink, charge and immortals all fuck mech up too much.
Actually blink is the opposite. I've had toss blink near my tank balls and get decemated.
Charge even isn't too much of a big deal and it never was. The one and only problem with going mech is immortals. They're just far too strong against mech. Well that and archons since archons can be made super easy late game and mech has no good counter to them.
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On November 06 2012 09:59 Elementsu wrote:
SC2 protoss seems designed to counter mech. Blink, charge and immortals all fuck mech up too much.
And Void rays (Thors auto attack VRs and waste all of their dps, it's fucking infuriating), Carriers (which not only rapes mech, but is decent vs Vikings), and now Tempests (even better than carriers vs Mech).
Mech is DEAD in HOTS, and unless we see some monstrous changes, TvP will remain the stale and boring deathball matchup it is today.
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Blizzard said it themselves that they aren't working on mech, but "holistic" approaches instead.
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On November 06 2012 10:56 architecture wrote:
Blizzard said it themselves that they aren't working on mech, but "holistic" approaches instead.
They need to work on getting their heads out of their asses
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On November 06 2012 10:56 architecture wrote:
Blizzard said it themselves that they aren't working on mech, but "holistic" approaches instead.
Can't be helped. Dustin Browder hates Siege Tanks and he wants to remove positional play.
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On November 06 2012 09:06 GARcher wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 09:00 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 01 2012 05:08 link0 wrote:On October 31 2012 12:42 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 31 2012 05:42 link0 wrote:On October 31 2012 02:59 MockHamill wrote:
I think the solution for making mech viable in TvP is quite simple. Just give Tanks an upgrade for 10 bonus damage against shields.
By making it in an upgrade it comes too late for making 1/1/1 too strong. And if the bonus damage only applies to shields it does not affect the other matchups. If this upgrades the damage against Hardened Shields, then it may work. Also, battle hellions need to be reverted back to full mechanical, not bio. Archons are just way too hard of a counter. And counter to Archons is 5 ghosts. The problem is that 5 ghosts cost as much as 5 immortals. Do you really want to have 5 more immortals against your mech army? EMP's AOE is way too small to be effective against archons/immortals, which are very bulky units that rarely clump. They are effective, just not early on. Mid game is OK sometimes (third base), late game they rape, because you should have like 160 supply army vs his 130 supply army, and because you have much more minerals to make walls and such, so that ur tanks can rape the immortals very fast. That's for immortals I mean. It still works somewhat for archons, but not well. For that, Thor/Hellion heavy army rapes. Unless if it's late game where your army supply is much bigger, where it's ok to still get ghosts since you will have more supply to keep enough tanks. You don't understand that a Protoss player can choose not to engage once EMP'd. A mech army cannot chase after a Protoss deathball.
You don't understand that you shouldn't EMP until his army actually engages with yours, and thus he will take losses if he backs up.
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On November 06 2012 13:07 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 09:06 GARcher wrote:On November 06 2012 09:00 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 01 2012 05:08 link0 wrote:On October 31 2012 12:42 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 31 2012 05:42 link0 wrote:On October 31 2012 02:59 MockHamill wrote:
I think the solution for making mech viable in TvP is quite simple. Just give Tanks an upgrade for 10 bonus damage against shields.
By making it in an upgrade it comes too late for making 1/1/1 too strong. And if the bonus damage only applies to shields it does not affect the other matchups. If this upgrades the damage against Hardened Shields, then it may work. Also, battle hellions need to be reverted back to full mechanical, not bio. Archons are just way too hard of a counter. And counter to Archons is 5 ghosts. The problem is that 5 ghosts cost as much as 5 immortals. Do you really want to have 5 more immortals against your mech army? EMP's AOE is way too small to be effective against archons/immortals, which are very bulky units that rarely clump. They are effective, just not early on. Mid game is OK sometimes (third base), late game they rape, because you should have like 160 supply army vs his 130 supply army, and because you have much more minerals to make walls and such, so that ur tanks can rape the immortals very fast. That's for immortals I mean. It still works somewhat for archons, but not well. For that, Thor/Hellion heavy army rapes. Unless if it's late game where your army supply is much bigger, where it's ok to still get ghosts since you will have more supply to keep enough tanks. You don't understand that a Protoss player can choose not to engage once EMP'd. A mech army cannot chase after a Protoss deathball. You don't understand that you shouldn't EMP until his army actually engages with yours, and thus he will take losses if he backs up.
By then it will already be too late because Feedback is instantaneous. Unless you are willing to use energy EMPing your Thors. Also you are going to need a TON of Ghosts to EMP the whole army.
In the end, HoTS mech is still the same as WoL mech.
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On November 06 2012 13:10 GARcher wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 13:07 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 06 2012 09:06 GARcher wrote:On November 06 2012 09:00 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 01 2012 05:08 link0 wrote:On October 31 2012 12:42 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 31 2012 05:42 link0 wrote:On October 31 2012 02:59 MockHamill wrote:
I think the solution for making mech viable in TvP is quite simple. Just give Tanks an upgrade for 10 bonus damage against shields.
By making it in an upgrade it comes too late for making 1/1/1 too strong. And if the bonus damage only applies to shields it does not affect the other matchups. If this upgrades the damage against Hardened Shields, then it may work. Also, battle hellions need to be reverted back to full mechanical, not bio. Archons are just way too hard of a counter. And counter to Archons is 5 ghosts. The problem is that 5 ghosts cost as much as 5 immortals. Do you really want to have 5 more immortals against your mech army? EMP's AOE is way too small to be effective against archons/immortals, which are very bulky units that rarely clump. They are effective, just not early on. Mid game is OK sometimes (third base), late game they rape, because you should have like 160 supply army vs his 130 supply army, and because you have much more minerals to make walls and such, so that ur tanks can rape the immortals very fast. That's for immortals I mean. It still works somewhat for archons, but not well. For that, Thor/Hellion heavy army rapes. Unless if it's late game where your army supply is much bigger, where it's ok to still get ghosts since you will have more supply to keep enough tanks. You don't understand that a Protoss player can choose not to engage once EMP'd. A mech army cannot chase after a Protoss deathball. You don't understand that you shouldn't EMP until his army actually engages with yours, and thus he will take losses if he backs up. By then it will already be too late because Feedback is instantaneous. Unless you are willing to use energy EMPing your Thors. Also you are going to need a TON of Ghosts to EMP the whole army. In the end, HoTS mech is still the same as WoL mech.
Ghost EMP outranges HT, position them correctly. Late game it's not hard to EMP most of his army. His army should be crushed as long as you are in a decent position. His army should be raped if you had time to put up a wall. There's no way he's going to be able to click feedback on all of your ghosts especially if you scatter them.
Regarding thors, it shouldn't be much of a problem. You are definitely able to have enough hellions/buildings to tank damage, and you should be looking to EMP his HTs before he engages anyways (or even snipe). Your argument was that he will just back off, but that just means you get even more time to replace supply with more army units. 1 EMP takes those HTs like 2 minutes to regenerate energy. And then you just regenerate your energy back faster than he does.
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Cloak and scan are instantaneous as well, and without observers for detection you can't feedback cloaked ghosts. HT/Ghost is not an easy interaction for either race, kinda like a mexican standoff. That's probably fine. It's okay that support nukers are instantaneously dangerous to each other, though you wouldn't want that kind of interaction for core units.
(actually it's not much like a mexican standoff)
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Mech is fine, the difficulty to master it is why people want all these buffs to it. So they can win as easily with it as they do with the quick moving multi pronged bio
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On November 07 2012 01:07 TheLunatic wrote:
Mech is fine, the difficulty to master it is why people want all these buffs to it. So they can win as easily with it as they do with the quick moving multi pronged bio
It really isn't.
At the highest level, mech is still not viable against toss.
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On November 07 2012 02:55 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 01:07 TheLunatic wrote:
Mech is fine, the difficulty to master it is why people want all these buffs to it. So they can win as easily with it as they do with the quick moving multi pronged bio It really isn't. At the highest level, mech is still not viable against toss.
In HotS? Can you give any examples or describe some problems mech has, with reference to games, where there are gaping holes in Mech play that makes it not just difficult, but completely unviable?
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I think in HotS mech is alot more viable and possible, it's just that most terrans arn't actually used to, or know how to play mech properly and just die to Protoss's who just naturally have a better build composition.
That said, temphest's have made mech alot harder to play vs P becasue now vikings have to do more work.... but with mines, tanks and hellions you can harass and slowly push the protoss player back and mech up... banshee's are something Terrans seem to forget about, and how quickly they can kill collosus...
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Lately I have been trying mech vs toss in WOL (diamond). And I would call it exactly the opposite: Mech is not viable, and any viability it has comes due to protoss bad unit composition and often just being completely stupid, and still they can win often enough with that.
To clarify: the stupid part comes from many toss who dont change anything in their unit composition, follow their plan blindly, and do a frontal assault on the complete mech army (no siege tanks defending other locations since you cant afford to weaken your main army) with 2-3 immortals in their army.
The bad unit composition comes from their lack of blink stalkers/generally abusing lack of mobility. They dont realise that while terran bio has slightly more mobility than a toss army, a toss army has far more mobility than a terran mech army. Now BFHs are great against zealot warpins/DTs, and quite often running BFHs into a toss expansion is like stealing candy from a baby. But there is simply nothing in a mech army that can deal with blink stalkers raiding. BFHs dont do anything, and sure you can place siege tanks on strategic locations, but that really isnt realistic against any decent sized group of blink stalkers.
TL;DR: My personal experience is that the only reason mech works slightly, is because protoss dont have experience playing against it.
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On November 07 2012 07:12 Sissors wrote:
Lately I have been trying mech vs toss in WOL (diamond). And I would call it exactly the opposite: Mech is not viable, and any viability it has comes due to protoss bad unit composition and often just being completely stupid, and still they can win often enough with that.
To clarify: the stupid part comes from many toss who dont change anything in their unit composition, follow their plan blindly, and do a frontal assault on the complete mech army (no siege tanks defending other locations since you cant afford to weaken your main army) with 2-3 immortals in their army.
The bad unit composition comes from their lack of blink stalkers/generally abusing lack of mobility. They dont realise that while terran bio has slightly more mobility than a toss army, a toss army has far more mobility than a terran mech army. Now BFHs are great against zealot warpins/DTs, and quite often running BFHs into a toss expansion is like stealing candy from a baby. But there is simply nothing in a mech army that can deal with blink stalkers raiding. BFHs dont do anything, and sure you can place siege tanks on strategic locations, but that really isnt realistic against any decent sized group of blink stalkers.
TL;DR: My personal experience is that the only reason mech works slightly, is because protoss dont have experience playing against it.
So.... you think its not viable becasue protoss's do dumb attacks that kill you out-right?
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On November 07 2012 07:14 baldgye wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 07:12 Sissors wrote:
Lately I have been trying mech vs toss in WOL (diamond). And I would call it exactly the opposite: Mech is not viable, and any viability it has comes due to protoss bad unit composition and often just being completely stupid, and still they can win often enough with that.
To clarify: the stupid part comes from many toss who dont change anything in their unit composition, follow their plan blindly, and do a frontal assault on the complete mech army (no siege tanks defending other locations since you cant afford to weaken your main army) with 2-3 immortals in their army.
The bad unit composition comes from their lack of blink stalkers/generally abusing lack of mobility. They dont realise that while terran bio has slightly more mobility than a toss army, a toss army has far more mobility than a terran mech army. Now BFHs are great against zealot warpins/DTs, and quite often running BFHs into a toss expansion is like stealing candy from a baby. But there is simply nothing in a mech army that can deal with blink stalkers raiding. BFHs dont do anything, and sure you can place siege tanks on strategic locations, but that really isnt realistic against any decent sized group of blink stalkers.
TL;DR: My personal experience is that the only reason mech works slightly, is because protoss dont have experience playing against it. So.... you think its not viable becasue protoss's do dumb attacks that kill you out-right?
That makes it even worse lol
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Apart from dying to 3 gate + tempest/msc allins or msc blink all ins which are so annoying to deal with, its been strange to see that a late game tech swith into a deahtball/A-move composition of battle cruisers/ravens/vikings (with upgrades!) with thors/few ghosts + w/e is left over from the mid/late game army i.e. battle hellions/tanks/vikings/ghosts do surprisingly well against the P deathball.
Getting there is abit difficult as you gotta turtle hardcore atleast up to 4 bases and try to kill off some of there expansions or slow them down (and survive 2~3 or more frontal assults if they are aggressive).
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EPT
