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On October 29 2012 08:55 terranghost wrote:I don't know why people keep asking to have the thor's energy bar removed this won't work unless it loses its ability or it gets reworked into something else because if it keeps the cannons and has no energybar that means the ability will become cooldown based and this was tried before and got reverted. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/ThorPatch 1.1.2 Energy bar removed. 250mm Strike Cannons is now cooldown-based on a 50-second cooldown. Ability starts with cooldown available (usable immediately after upgrade is researched). [show]Patch 1.1.3 [hide]Patch 1.3.3 Thor now has 200 max energy, and starts with 50 energy. 250mm Strike Cannons now cost 150 energy to use (cooldown removed).
You have to recall that the game was at a much different point when this change was made and then reverted. First, the average map size was smaller. Secondly, people were still figuring a lot of shit out with SC2 in general. I recall even Incontrol himself saying something along the lines that the change in reverting the buff was very quick and protoss players may or may not have been able to figure out how to deal with an energy-less Thor.
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On October 29 2012 09:29 Zergrusher wrote:
Tell blizzard this 1 SIMPLE way to make mech more effective
increase vikings armor by 1
thats all it takes.
What would that do?
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On October 29 2012 09:47 happyness wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 08:55 terranghost wrote:I don't know why people keep asking to have the thor's energy bar removed this won't work unless it loses its ability or it gets reworked into something else because if it keeps the cannons and has no energybar that means the ability will become cooldown based and this was tried before and got reverted. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/ThorPatch 1.1.2 Energy bar removed. 250mm Strike Cannons is now cooldown-based on a 50-second cooldown. Ability starts with cooldown available (usable immediately after upgrade is researched). [show]Patch 1.1.3 [hide]Patch 1.3.3 Thor now has 200 max energy, and starts with 50 energy. 250mm Strike Cannons now cost 150 energy to use (cooldown removed). You have to recall that the game was at a much different point when this change was made and then reverted. First, the average map size was smaller. Secondly, people were still figuring a lot of shit out with SC2 in general. I recall even Incontrol himself saying something along the lines that the change in reverting the buff was very quick and protoss players may or may not have been able to figure out how to deal with an energy-less Thor.
Protoss players seem to need a buff or a nerf to actually use units in their arsenal (warp prism, immortal) once those units were buffed now you see them used all the time, and the immortal is still a great answer to any sort of thor play, they dont NEED an energy bar to feedback
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On October 29 2012 11:28 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 09:47 happyness wrote:On October 29 2012 08:55 terranghost wrote:I don't know why people keep asking to have the thor's energy bar removed this won't work unless it loses its ability or it gets reworked into something else because if it keeps the cannons and has no energybar that means the ability will become cooldown based and this was tried before and got reverted. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/ThorPatch 1.1.2 Energy bar removed. 250mm Strike Cannons is now cooldown-based on a 50-second cooldown. Ability starts with cooldown available (usable immediately after upgrade is researched). [show]Patch 1.1.3 [hide]Patch 1.3.3 Thor now has 200 max energy, and starts with 50 energy. 250mm Strike Cannons now cost 150 energy to use (cooldown removed). You have to recall that the game was at a much different point when this change was made and then reverted. First, the average map size was smaller. Secondly, people were still figuring a lot of shit out with SC2 in general. I recall even Incontrol himself saying something along the lines that the change in reverting the buff was very quick and protoss players may or may not have been able to figure out how to deal with an energy-less Thor. Protoss players seem to need a buff or a nerf to actually use units in their arsenal (warp prism, immortal) once those units were buffed now you see them used all the time, and the immortal is still a great answer to any sort of thor play, they dont NEED an energy bar to feedback
That is an unfair comparison lets just say at release the medivacs speed was 1. And therefore noone used it. That would be the same thing as no one using the prism then it getting a health buff.
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It was only removed for a very short time however, they didnt even have the time to try how to counter thors without energybar.
More important probably: I dont think you will find many terran players who care in the slightest what happens with the ability itself if the energybar is removed. Its dps is too low to be really relevant, it isnt much more than a gimmick which can sometimes be useful, but that is completely overshadowed by first having to research it, and then the energy bar makes them completely useless against toss.
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On October 29 2012 05:52 teamhozac wrote:
Are you seriously calling upgrades for everything for Terran the same as the other two races? And where do these 10 reactored barracks' just magically sprout up from? Unlike Protoss Terran has to sacrifice an scv for the entire build time, then all the time and gas it takes to get reactors, youre just being silly, Terran CANNOT flip flop like that, they just dont have the production capabilities OR the upgrade synergy
I am not here to split hairs, but just for the sake of it, let me show you how easy it is to only see the drawbacks of a certain race:
Terran pays 75/75 more for their 3/3 on bio than protoss does. They pay 75/75 more as well if they get 3/3 mech instead. Getting both makes you pay 1200/1200. That is exactly the cost of 3/3 mech and 3/3 bio, minus the cost of 3/3 protoss upgrades. Shields cost 675/675. That leaves you with an expense of 525/525. For tier 3 upgrades across the board.
But wait, there is more.
You get your armory "for free" both if you are going bio or mech, while protoss needs a TC instead which gives no upgrades. If a T goes double bio upgrades at the same time, you can be done with + 2 from the armory together with your 3/3. You are also down to 375/425 in terms of cost disadvantage.
Also, since you don't "need" 9 total upgrades in order for your first tech path to be succesful, you have a time in the game when you have maxed out your bio or mech, long before protoss has actually maxed himself out. And you have spent much less money doing so.
The thing is, having one e-bay running upgrades alongside a mech build is likely not even going to be noticed, until you need a bio switch and can start off with 2/1 already. Same thing goes for a second or even third armory. Armories cost less than one siege tank. You can make up for that in a matter of seconds. Just like how protoss could get a second cyber core just to upgrade 2/2. Oh wait, you can't since you need a fleet beacon for 300/200 for that. Guess I forgot to include it.
Secondly, are you seriously going to bring up lost mining time for workers in a game with 20+ production facilities? I might have considered it if this was about the early game off of one or two bases, but it isn't. Besides, if you dont want to spend gas, just build naked barracks.
So I will say it for the third time now. If terran cannot mix their compositions up, that is the problem. Not the lack of powerful mech units. The ability to combat zealots, stalkers and immortals already exists in many shapes in the terran arsenal, they just aren't available to those who go pure mech. For whatever reason.
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You know what, I've yet to see people make medivacs to heal their battl- I mean fireb- I mean hellbats.
What's up with that?
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On October 29 2012 22:42 Fenris420 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 05:52 teamhozac wrote:
Are you seriously calling upgrades for everything for Terran the same as the other two races? And where do these 10 reactored barracks' just magically sprout up from? Unlike Protoss Terran has to sacrifice an scv for the entire build time, then all the time and gas it takes to get reactors, youre just being silly, Terran CANNOT flip flop like that, they just dont have the production capabilities OR the upgrade synergy I am not here to split hairs, but just for the sake of it, let me show you how easy it is to only see the drawbacks of a certain race: Terran pays 75/75 more for their 3/3 on bio than protoss does. They pay 75/75 more as well if they get 3/3 mech instead. Getting both makes you pay 1200/1200. That is exactly the cost of 3/3 mech and 3/3 bio, minus the cost of 3/3 protoss upgrades. Shields cost 675/675. That leaves you with an expense of 525/525. For tier 3 upgrades across the board. But wait, there is more. You get your armory "for free" both if you are going bio or mech, while protoss needs a TC instead which gives no upgrades. If a T goes double bio upgrades at the same time, you can be done with + 2 from the armory together with your 3/3. You are also down to 375/425 in terms of cost disadvantage. Also, since you don't "need" 9 total upgrades in order for your first tech path to be succesful, you have a time in the game when you have maxed out your bio or mech, long before protoss has actually maxed himself out. And you have spent much less money doing so. The thing is, having one e-bay running upgrades alongside a mech build is likely not even going to be noticed, until you need a bio switch and can start off with 2/1 already. Same thing goes for a second or even third armory. Armories cost less than one siege tank. You can make up for that in a matter of seconds. Just like how protoss could get a second cyber core just to upgrade 2/2. Oh wait, you can't since you need a fleet beacon for 300/200 for that. Guess I forgot to include it. Secondly, are you seriously going to bring up lost mining time for workers in a game with 20+ production facilities? I might have considered it if this was about the early game off of one or two bases, but it isn't. Besides, if you dont want to spend gas, just build naked barracks. So I will say it for the third time now. If terran cannot mix their compositions up, that is the problem. Not the lack of powerful mech units. The ability to combat zealots, stalkers and immortals already exists in many shapes in the terran arsenal, they just aren't available to those who go pure mech. For whatever reason.
That all sounds great, IN THEORY. Unfortunately, in real life, none of what you said is practical, and that is why you dont see it, in pro or amatuer games
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On October 30 2012 01:42 RavenLoud wrote:
You know what, I've yet to see people make medivacs to heal their battl- I mean fireb- I mean hellbats.
What's up with that?
Because no mech army is going to have medevacs in it
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On October 30 2012 01:58 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2012 01:42 RavenLoud wrote:
You know what, I've yet to see people make medivacs to heal their battl- I mean fireb- I mean hellbats.
What's up with that? Because no mech army is going to have medevacs in it
I'm asking why. You're telling me that "it's so because it's so".
Seems to me that a couple of medivacs can greatly increase the tanking abilities of hellbats. It's not like having 8-10 supply in them is going to cripple your tank/thor count.
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On October 30 2012 02:04 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2012 01:58 teamhozac wrote:On October 30 2012 01:42 RavenLoud wrote:
You know what, I've yet to see people make medivacs to heal their battl- I mean fireb- I mean hellbats.
What's up with that? Because no mech army is going to have medevacs in it I'm asking why. You're telling me that "it's so because it's so".
Gas expense.
On October 30 2012 02:04 RavenLoud wrote:
Seems to me that a couple of medivacs can greatly increase the tanking abilities of hellbats. It's not like having 8-10 supply in them is going to cripple your tank/thor count.
Yes it will.
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On October 30 2012 02:10 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2012 02:04 RavenLoud wrote:On October 30 2012 01:58 teamhozac wrote:On October 30 2012 01:42 RavenLoud wrote:
You know what, I've yet to see people make medivacs to heal their battl- I mean fireb- I mean hellbats.
What's up with that? Because no mech army is going to have medevacs in it I'm asking why. You're telling me that "it's so because it's so". Gas expense. Show nested quote +On October 30 2012 02:04 RavenLoud wrote:
Seems to me that a couple of medivacs can greatly increase the tanking abilities of hellbats. It's not like having 8-10 supply in them is going to cripple your tank/thor count. Yes it will.
Yes to which part? I'm assuming both. So 3 less tanks and 1~2 less thors will always make up for the increase in hellbat lifespan?
Guess I'll head to the unit tester myself.
As for gas expense, seems like an excuse if the game is longer than 15 minutes. You should be on 4-5 bases with a couple of reactor'd starports for vikings anyway.
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On October 30 2012 02:04 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2012 01:58 teamhozac wrote:On October 30 2012 01:42 RavenLoud wrote:
You know what, I've yet to see people make medivacs to heal their battl- I mean fireb- I mean hellbats.
What's up with that? Because no mech army is going to have medevacs in it I'm asking why. You're telling me that "it's so because it's so". Seems to me that a couple of medivacs can greatly increase the tanking abilities of hellbats. It's not like having 8-10 supply in them is going to cripple your tank/thor count.
SCV's can repair hellbats still, I THINK. Dont quote me on that but from what I hear they are like scvs, mechanical - biological, so they can repair and be healed. Also, the cost of getting starports plus medevacs can definitely put a dent in thor/tank count/upgrades, maybe not a huge one but early game it is a lot of resources to invest in medevacs
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On October 30 2012 02:04 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2012 01:58 teamhozac wrote:On October 30 2012 01:42 RavenLoud wrote:
You know what, I've yet to see people make medivacs to heal their battl- I mean fireb- I mean hellbats.
What's up with that? Because no mech army is going to have medevacs in it I'm asking why. You're telling me that "it's so because it's so". Seems to me that a couple of medivacs can greatly increase the tanking abilities of hellbats. It's not like having 8-10 supply in them is going to cripple your tank/thor count.
Because medivacs cost 100 gas each. Healing hellbats with medivacs is probably the WORST possible expenditure of gas ever because the healing rate is so slow.
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Yeah I've never said that we should rush for hellbat/medivac builds at the 10 minute mark. You need starports later on for vikings anyway. I'm more talking about post-20 minute games, where I NEVER see any medivacs despite hellbats often being low health and remain unrepaired.
Since mech often relies on 1 big battle that decide everything, and the fact that tanks are usually doomed to the chargelots/blink stalkers/immortals once hellbats die, perhaps the idea of investing in medivacs to increase hellbat tanking and re-usability can be viable.
Anyway, this is theorycraft and I don't have the beta. Maybe Bliz should give stim to hellbats just to get people to try it.
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I don't get one thing watching HOTS replays: why protoss players go for tempests instead of carriers against terran mech? Mech is so passive there would be plenty of time to get carriers. Plus they have better dps than tempests. Plus mech doesn't really have anything against air (vikings lose to carriers). Plus u can recall them back if a pack of marines showes up. I don't see where a tempest is better than a carrier vs mech...
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On October 30 2012 05:46 Radison wrote:
I don't get one thing watching HOTS replays: why protoss players go for tempests instead of carriers against terran mech? Mech is so passive there would be plenty of time to get carriers. Plus they have better dps than tempests. Plus mech doesn't really have anything against air (vikings lose to carriers). Plus u can recall them back if a pack of marines showes up. I don't see where a tempest is better than a carrier vs mech...
People want to try the new units? Also Tempests do bonus to massive (thors)?
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On October 30 2012 05:46 Radison wrote:
I don't get one thing watching HOTS replays: why protoss players go for tempests instead of carriers against terran mech? Mech is so passive there would be plenty of time to get carriers. Plus they have better dps than tempests. Plus mech doesn't really have anything against air (vikings lose to carriers). Plus u can recall them back if a pack of marines showes up. I don't see where a tempest is better than a carrier vs mech...
Carriers need Fleet Bacon and Upgrade.More time to pop,more supply and less range...
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On October 30 2012 02:30 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2012 02:10 pmp10 wrote:On October 30 2012 02:04 RavenLoud wrote:On October 30 2012 01:58 teamhozac wrote:On October 30 2012 01:42 RavenLoud wrote:
You know what, I've yet to see people make medivacs to heal their battl- I mean fireb- I mean hellbats.
What's up with that? Because no mech army is going to have medevacs in it I'm asking why. You're telling me that "it's so because it's so". Gas expense. On October 30 2012 02:04 RavenLoud wrote:
Seems to me that a couple of medivacs can greatly increase the tanking abilities of hellbats. It's not like having 8-10 supply in them is going to cripple your tank/thor count. Yes it will. Yes to which part? I'm assuming both. So 3 less tanks and 1~2 less thors will always make up for the increase in hellbat lifespan? Guess I'll head to the unit tester myself. As for gas expense, seems like an excuse if the game is longer than 15 minutes. You should be on 4-5 bases with a couple of reactor'd starports for vikings anyway.
A good mech player will always have their gas near 0, even after 15 minutes, so it's not an excuse. You also have to think about how well it scales in 200/200 battles. Usually there is a lot of aoe(banes, collossi, storm) and the hellbats would die before they can be healed.
I also wonder if the heal rate on a medivac would be much faster than 2 scvs.... it just seems pointless to me.
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Mech is fine. So what that you can't go pure factory against gate/robo/stargate comps anymore? Cry me a river. Oh, wait. You already are.
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EPT
