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1. It's easy for you to handwave that ghost+tank is not hard to get, but the reality of it is that it's extremely difficult to get, especially if you need both units as core of your army. This has ALWAYS been the problem of mech in SC2 - it takes too long to get ready, and gives too much room for P to outmacro/techswitch. Please WATCH any mech games played in either WoL or HOTS. There is TONS of time for P to transition. If P could transition against a meching T in BW, with T having LESS infrastructure+composition requirements, think about what happens here with MORE expensive tanks + caster + infrastructure needed.
Supposing you had 3 base gas income, and were spending NO gas on upgrades it would, you could get 3 tanks + 1 ghost per 45s production cycle. That means in 3 minutes, you would produce 12 tanks + 4 ghosts. (44 food)
Do you think you can move out with less? It takes 3 minutes to ramp up one attack, ignoring movement time across the map. If the idea is T is the aggressor and needs to pressure against air transition, I don't think only being able to create 44 food in 3m is that particularly robust, when T/P currently can shit out 40 food in 2 30s cycles on 3 base.
2. I don't know if you watched the TvP HOTS mech vods that have been floating around, but practically no one gets a balanced army with hellions. Guess why: they are still extremely supply inefficient, only reasonable against a tiny fraction of the protoss ground army. So you end up banking a lot of minerals so you can get more tanks for a stronger standing army.
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Also maybe you are forgetting the new Protoss air unit, tempest, which require no fleet beacon, and has 15 range.
Good luck using ghosts against that.
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HotS is just a complete disaster, I hope they dont release it anytime soon because it needs serious work
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On October 29 2012 02:29 architecture wrote:
1. It's easy for you to handwave that ghost+tank is not hard to get, but the reality of it is that it's extremely difficult to get, especially if you need both units as core of your army. This has ALWAYS been the problem of mech in SC2 - it takes too long to get ready, and gives too much room for P to outmacro/techswitch. Please WATCH any mech games played in either WoL or HOTS. There is TONS of time for P to transition.
I'm not saying it's easy to get there. But if you want to, you get there. Just like a Zerg gets to BL/Infestor if he really wants to. And guess what you are if you don't get to BL/Infestor against Protoss? F***ed!
Yes, getting a strong hightech army is not as easy as maxing on roaches from 4hatches or spamming mass MMM from a thousand barracks, that's just how it is and how it should be.
And yes, I watch that stuff on HotS streams and in casted games, and I played that style (the Lyyna one) in WoL more than a dozen of times. There is absolutly not problem with getting caught too easily by Protoss Air switches.
On October 29 2012 02:29 architecture wrote:
If P could transition against a meching T in BW, with T having LESS infrastructure+composition requirements, think about what happens here with MORE expensive tanks + caster + infrastructure needed.
Different game, different balancing, different income, different units...
On October 29 2012 02:29 architecture wrote:
Supposing you had 3 base gas income, and were spending NO gas on upgrades it would, you could get 3 tanks + 1 ghost per 45s production cycle. That means in 3 minutes, you would produce 12 tanks + 4 ghosts. (44 food)
Do you think you can move out with less? It takes 3 minutes to ramp up one attack, ignoring movement time across the map. If the idea is T is the aggressor and needs to pressure against air transition, I don't think only being able to create 44 food in 3m is that particularly robust, when T/P currently can shit out 40 food in 2 30s cycles on 3 base.
Yeah, 3mins. A starport takes 60seconds, a fleet beacon takes 60seconds, a Carrier (chronoboosted all the way) takes 90seconds, a (chronoboosted) Tempest takes 50seconds. It's not like a fleet of those things just appear out of thin air while you produce your 12tanks and 4ghosts. (may I add that they cost a shitton of money as well?)
On October 29 2012 02:29 architecture wrote:
2. I don't know if you watched the TvP HOTS mech vods that have been floating around, but practically no one gets a balanced army with hellions. Guess why: they are still extremely supply inefficient, only reasonable against a tiny fraction of the protoss ground army. So you end up banking a lot of minerals so you can get more tanks for a stronger standing army.
yeah and widow mines and ghosts... stuff that all doesnt make sense anymore if you add your upgrade idea...
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On October 27 2012 18:17 Jarree wrote:
10 rax + addons, 8 factories + addons, 3 starports + addons. Stim+combat shield+mobius reactor+cloak, 3-3 for bio, siege mode, 3-3 for mech, 3-3 for air. Yes i think you are right, there are many other ways not just vikings. Once you get all that you can just pick and choose what ever you want to build!
and
Mech isn't being done stand alone.
Ghosts are bio and vikings are air units.
"Ghosts are bio and vikings are air units."
Yet, this and many other threads are essentially all about how mech doesnt have good anti air. The proper question to ask is "Does terran have good anti air?". The answer is undoubtedly yes. The problem with mech is that it is hard to incorporate that anti air in you compostion. The answer is not to just make a new unit, there is no need for that.
The exact same point can be made about ghosts with emp. If immortals are not good against siege tanks and thors, why would you ever build them vs. T? Having a unit completely lack application in a matchup is bad. Immortals get murdered by bio and air already, and emp just makes that all the more one-sided. So use those units. I mean, the reason protoss builds immortals in the first place is to acheive the same result. Better yet, the same argument about vikings can be applied to immortals. "If you build 10 immortals to counter mass mech, sure you can kill the tanks and thors, but then the terran switches to 10 reactored barracks and you are stuck with 40 supply of immortals".
"10 rax + addons, 8 factories + addons, 3 starports + addons. Stim+combat shield+mobius reactor+cloak, 3-3 for bio, siege mode, 3-3 for mech, 3-3 for air."
1. 10 rax, 8 factories and 3 starports is a total of 3150 minerals and 1100 gas. 21 addons, 14 tech labs and 7 reactors iare 1100/700. Thats all you will ever need in a game. One saturated mineral line mines the minerals in five minutes. The gas in less than 8 minutes. Better yet, half of that(roughly) you are going to get either way even if you dont intend to build anything besides factory units, or bio for that matter. Suddenly the cost is down to two medivac drops and an expansion.
2. Getting max upgrades for everything is the same luxury for all races. Again, the amount it costs compared to how much you spend in a game is relatively small. Getting 3-3 for air is the same across the board. Getting 3-3 for ground is the same across the board. 3-3 for terran mech is one line of upgrades less than for zerg (melee/ranged upgrades separate) and less than one line less than protoss (shields are expensive). Unless you have some sort of proof that terrans need upgrades more or faster than the other races, I don't see what the big deal is here.
3. Did I not explicitly state that the issue is with the diversity of unit compositions? You are saying there is no way to attain diversity, give us a new unit that does the same thing but is built out of the factory. I am saying, allow for more diversity across the unit types, whatever that is. Those are changes I would support, because they bring meaningful things to the game.
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On October 29 2012 05:08 Fenris420 wrote:"Ghosts are bio and vikings are air units."Yet, this and many other threads are essentially all about how mech doesnt have good anti air. The proper question to ask is "Does terran have good anti air?". The answer is undoubtedly yes. The problem with mech is that it is hard to incorporate that anti air in you compostion.
No - this thread isn't about how to incorporate mass marines into mech composition because due to production requirements it's unrealistic.
The question is what would it take to make factory heavy unit composition work against high-level protoss in macro games?
Right now nobody seems to have a good answer without breaking some part of TvP balance.
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On October 29 2012 05:08 Fenris420 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 18:17 Jarree wrote:
10 rax + addons, 8 factories + addons, 3 starports + addons. Stim+combat shield+mobius reactor+cloak, 3-3 for bio, siege mode, 3-3 for mech, 3-3 for air. Yes i think you are right, there are many other ways not just vikings. Once you get all that you can just pick and choose what ever you want to build! and "Ghosts are bio and vikings are air units."Yet, this and many other threads are essentially all about how mech doesnt have good anti air. The proper question to ask is "Does terran have good anti air?". The answer is undoubtedly yes. The problem with mech is that it is hard to incorporate that anti air in you compostion. The answer is not to just make a new unit, there is no need for that. The exact same point can be made about ghosts with emp. If immortals are not good against siege tanks and thors, why would you ever build them vs. T? Having a unit completely lack application in a matchup is bad. Immortals get murdered by bio and air already, and emp just makes that all the more one-sided. So use those units. I mean, the reason protoss builds immortals in the first place is to acheive the same result. Better yet, the same argument about vikings can be applied to immortals. "If you build 10 immortals to counter mass mech, sure you can kill the tanks and thors, but then the terran switches to 10 reactored barracks and you are stuck with 40 supply of immortals". "10 rax + addons, 8 factories + addons, 3 starports + addons. Stim+combat shield+mobius reactor+cloak, 3-3 for bio, siege mode, 3-3 for mech, 3-3 for air."1. 10 rax, 8 factories and 3 starports is a total of 3150 minerals and 1100 gas. 21 addons, 14 tech labs and 7 reactors iare 1100/700. Thats all you will ever need in a game. One saturated mineral line mines the minerals in five minutes. The gas in less than 8 minutes. Better yet, half of that(roughly) you are going to get either way even if you dont intend to build anything besides factory units, or bio for that matter. Suddenly the cost is down to two medivac drops and an expansion. 2. Getting max upgrades for everything is the same luxury for all races. Again, the amount it costs compared to how much you spend in a game is relatively small. Getting 3-3 for air is the same across the board. Getting 3-3 for ground is the same across the board. 3-3 for terran mech is one line of upgrades less than for zerg (melee/ranged upgrades separate) and less than one line less than protoss (shields are expensive). Unless you have some sort of proof that terrans need upgrades more or faster than the other races, I don't see what the big deal is here. 3. Did I not explicitly state that the issue is with the diversity of unit compositions? You are saying there is no way to attain diversity, give us a new unit that does the same thing but is built out of the factory. I am saying, allow for more diversity across the unit types, whatever that is. Those are changes I would support, because they bring meaningful things to the game.
Are you seriously calling upgrades for everything for Terran the same as the other two races? And where do these 10 reactored barracks' just magically sprout up from? Unlike Protoss Terran has to sacrifice an scv for the entire build time, then all the time and gas it takes to get reactors, youre just being silly, Terran CANNOT flip flop like that, they just dont have the production capabilities OR the upgrade synergy
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I think its the upgrade synergy along with the production buildings that bring out the bio/mech/sky playstyles because its hard to divert away from the tech tree that you have invested in. I think many dont realise that especially those that dont play Terran. Hence why vikings/ghosts are all very hard to get in the sense of timings and cost + dont scale very well as the game goes by due to the lack of upgrades.
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"If you build 10 immortals to counter mass mech, sure you can kill the tanks and thors, but then the terran switches to 10 reactored barracks and you are stuck with 40 supply of immortals".
I agree that I think many are a bit too happy with getting ways to nerf immortals against mech, considering they are supposed to counter armored units (if anything make hellions better against them or immortals worse against hellions), but you are now underestimating the strength of immortals. Afaik they are roughly as good as stalkers against ground. Of course slower, bulkier and no blink, but warp in a few sentries and it wont be all that one-sided against marines. Yeah they will lose, but it wont be nearly as horrible as ground vikings get raped.
(Btw on that note, adding dual attack for ground viking to make it better against immortals is a waste of time, considering immortals will kill them anyway so fast you will never get more than a few shots of).
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On October 29 2012 06:39 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +"If you build 10 immortals to counter mass mech, sure you can kill the tanks and thors, but then the terran switches to 10 reactored barracks and you are stuck with 40 supply of immortals". I agree that I think many are a bit too happy with getting ways to nerf immortals against mech, considering they are supposed to counter armored units (if anything make hellions better against them or immortals worse against hellions), but you are now underestimating the strength of immortals. Afaik they are roughly as good as stalkers against ground. Of course slower, bulkier and no blink, but warp in a few sentries and it wont be all that one-sided against marines. Yeah they will lose, but it wont be nearly as horrible as ground vikings get raped. (Btw on that note, adding dual attack for ground viking to make it better against immortals is a waste of time, considering immortals will kill them anyway so fast you will never get more than a few shots of).
Immortals have exactly double damage, same range (or close to it) exactly double supply mineral and gas cost. But have like triple the health way more than double vs armored. So hellions fight them and its like two stalkers fireing at once.
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Yeah thats what I meant, they arent all that bad against marines. And if you want to boost mech against them, find a way to boost hellions against them, not the units they are supposed to counter.
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Observers need to be babysat like crazy or the widow mines kill it instantly.
Guys like MorroW have been mixing in vikings since they can be ground units too. But chiefly they can also deal with units like colossus and the mobility given from mass recall and oracles, and they can hunt down tempests fairly well too. That takes away a lot of threats, and things like mass zealot or archons can be killed with big siege tank numbers
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If they changed a siege tanks supply from 3 - 2, this could help a lot. 60 supply of tanks would deal +50% damage in a max v max army without changing the game much at all. TvZ wouldn't change much as tanks aren't the most effective vs Zerg late game, and of course TvT would remain similar, just more tanks, and more players opting for mech.
Terran late game would be stronger without effecting the early or mid game too much. And late game seems to be the biggest problem. Granted this does nothing to solve the mech air issues, but it's a small change that can help fix some of the problems.
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On October 29 2012 06:59 DavoS wrote:
Observers need to be babysat like crazy or the widow mines kill it instantly.
Guys like MorroW have been mixing in vikings since they can be ground units too. But chiefly they can also deal with units like colossus and the mobility given from mass recall and oracles, and they can hunt down tempests fairly well too. That takes away a lot of threats, and things like mass zealot or archons can be killed with big siege tank numbers
Lol what are you smokin? Zealots and archons rape tanks because neither of them take full damage, zealots force splash damage on friendly units, archons are massive so splash damage doesnt really hit any other units besides the archon being shelled
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On October 29 2012 07:07 mlspmatt wrote:
If they changed a siege tanks supply from 3 - 2, this could help a lot. 60 supply of tanks would deal +50% damage in a max v max army without changing the game much at all. TvZ wouldn't change much as tanks aren't the most effective vs Zerg late game, and of course TvT would remain similar, just more tanks, and more players opting for mech.
Terran late game would be stronger without effecting the early or mid game too much. And late game seems to be the biggest problem. Granted this does nothing to solve the mech air issues, but it's a small change that can help fix some of the problems.
Meh, I guess it would help late game TvP as you could get more tanks total, but I dont think it solves the core issues of mech in TvP, which are, as you stated, no anti air, immortals, chargelots, archons, they all rape mech, the energy bar on thors for gods sake, the ridiculous decision to make the hellbat into some sort of mechanical/bio unit that will REALLY get stomped by archons... If Blizzard's goal is to make mech viable in TvP they are failing big time
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I don't know why people keep asking to have the thor's energy bar removed this won't work unless it loses its ability or it gets reworked into something else because if it keeps the cannons and has no energybar that means the ability will become cooldown based and this was tried before and got reverted.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Thor
Patch 1.1.2
Energy bar removed.
250mm Strike Cannons is now cooldown-based on a 50-second cooldown. Ability starts with cooldown available (usable immediately after upgrade is researched).
[show]Patch 1.1.3
[hide]Patch 1.3.3
Thor now has 200 max energy, and starts with 50 energy.
250mm Strike Cannons now cost 150 energy to use (cooldown removed).
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On October 29 2012 08:55 terranghost wrote:I don't know why people keep asking to have the thor's energy bar removed this won't work unless it loses its ability or it gets reworked into something else because if it keeps the cannons and has no energybar that means the ability will become cooldown based and this was tried before and got reverted. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/ThorPatch 1.1.2 Energy bar removed. 250mm Strike Cannons is now cooldown-based on a 50-second cooldown. Ability starts with cooldown available (usable immediately after upgrade is researched). [show]Patch 1.1.3 [hide]Patch 1.3.3 Thor now has 200 max energy, and starts with 50 energy. 250mm Strike Cannons now cost 150 energy to use (cooldown removed).
There was no reason for it to be reverted other than to nerf it against Protoss. If I recall at that time thor all-ins were very common against Protoss players, I think that is the only reason why they nerfed it to the point of being unusable vs Protoss.
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On October 29 2012 09:00 InoyouS2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 08:55 terranghost wrote:I don't know why people keep asking to have the thor's energy bar removed this won't work unless it loses its ability or it gets reworked into something else because if it keeps the cannons and has no energybar that means the ability will become cooldown based and this was tried before and got reverted. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/ThorPatch 1.1.2 Energy bar removed. 250mm Strike Cannons is now cooldown-based on a 50-second cooldown. Ability starts with cooldown available (usable immediately after upgrade is researched). [show]Patch 1.1.3 [hide]Patch 1.3.3 Thor now has 200 max energy, and starts with 50 energy. 250mm Strike Cannons now cost 150 energy to use (cooldown removed). There was no reason for it to be reverted other than to nerf it against Protoss. If I recall at that time thor all-ins were very common against Protoss players, I think that is the only reason why they nerfed it to the point of being unusable vs Protoss.
Correct
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Blizzard has stated they intend to rework the cannons or maybe give the thor a different ability if that is the case maybe the cannons could be removed. (Maybe some sort of AA ability)
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Tell blizzard this 1 SIMPLE way to make mech more effective
increase vikings armor by 1
thats all it takes.
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EPT
