|
My idea is really drastic, but given what I've seen on streams, and in general I think it makes sense:
Factory techlab upgrade unlocked at armory: Penetrator shells: siege tank shots ignore shields. So any 14-15m push will have 8+ tanks that can ignore shields.
That's right. Siege tanks eventually crush all P ground, given enough time to shoot at it. No matter what you introduce for T to handle P air, the fact is that it will significantly dilute T ground. T ground needs to be so strong that a straight up fight at 200 should largely result in a loss.
Right now it's simply not the case. T at best breaks even against P ground, and loses terribly in any suboptimal position. Basically eventually it needs to be a balancing act between ground and air strength, but right now there's no balance, just a huge amount of tipping.
|
On October 28 2012 09:30 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 08:21 Qikz wrote:On October 28 2012 07:07 Resistentialism wrote:
Just tell me how to do deal with variations on the 1/1/1 and I'd be sold. I can't see the oracle helping versus it. Tempest would be a better idea, but whereas colossus slows down a 1/1/1 and lives or dies slowly against tank creep, a tempest would provoke the terran to rush in, maybe with medivac drops. Colossus and tempest together would shut it down, but that's unrealistic.
Paint me the start of a good picture on how to hold it. Make the +25% to shields thing an upgrade on armory and make it take a while to research. Sorted. Doesn't affect early game and only helps as the game goes on against toss. It's awful design. An upgrade that literally only affects one matchup? I'd rather the upgrade buff Tanks dmg straight up.
Meh, they had the warhound at anti-mechanical, which completely ignored tvz
|
On October 28 2012 09:40 architecture wrote:
My idea is really drastic, but given what I've seen on streams, and in general I think it makes sense:
Factory techlab upgrade unlocked at armory: Penetrator shells: siege tank shots ignore shields. So any 14-15m push will have 8+ tanks that can ignore shields.
That's right. Siege tanks eventually crush all P ground, given enough time to shoot at it. No matter what you introduce for T to handle P air, the fact is that it will significantly dilute T ground. T ground needs to be so strong that a straight up fight at 200 should largely result in a loss.
Right now it's simply not the case. T at best breaks even against P ground, and loses terribly in any suboptimal position. Basically eventually it needs to be a balancing act between ground and air strength, but right now there's no balance, just a huge amount of tipping.
So you buy an upgrade that reduces Protoss ground health by ~33-50% as long as you don't bother being so stupid to "put some thought into your composition" and "switch it up" and build anything else than tanks.
In the case of Archons by 96%. Sounds fair...
|
On October 28 2012 09:55 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 09:30 SarcasmMonster wrote:On October 28 2012 08:21 Qikz wrote:On October 28 2012 07:07 Resistentialism wrote:
Just tell me how to do deal with variations on the 1/1/1 and I'd be sold. I can't see the oracle helping versus it. Tempest would be a better idea, but whereas colossus slows down a 1/1/1 and lives or dies slowly against tank creep, a tempest would provoke the terran to rush in, maybe with medivac drops. Colossus and tempest together would shut it down, but that's unrealistic.
Paint me the start of a good picture on how to hold it. Make the +25% to shields thing an upgrade on armory and make it take a while to research. Sorted. Doesn't affect early game and only helps as the game goes on against toss. It's awful design. An upgrade that literally only affects one matchup? I'd rather the upgrade buff Tanks dmg straight up. Meh, they had the warhound at anti-mechanical, which completely ignored tvz
And the community agreed it was terrible.
|
I wonder if one of the biggest problems with this matchup in terms of mech is the HP of the protoss units. They all have alot of hitpoints and take a *** ton of tank shelling to be killed off. Where as you take a look at TvZ and mech builds do ok (i think its borderline since marauders eat them for lunch if you dont have many) since the enemy doesn't employ units that take 10+ shots to kill.
So the biggest question is, how does one buff tanks without affecting the other matchup? I think a slight buff e.g. +5 damage at the least on top of something that affects the P matchup would be suffice. Maybe like BW, it deals full damage to shields? this way it sort of buffs the tank vs archons/zealots which are some of the things that take forever to kill.
|
On October 28 2012 10:06 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 09:55 teamhozac wrote:On October 28 2012 09:30 SarcasmMonster wrote:On October 28 2012 08:21 Qikz wrote:On October 28 2012 07:07 Resistentialism wrote:
Just tell me how to do deal with variations on the 1/1/1 and I'd be sold. I can't see the oracle helping versus it. Tempest would be a better idea, but whereas colossus slows down a 1/1/1 and lives or dies slowly against tank creep, a tempest would provoke the terran to rush in, maybe with medivac drops. Colossus and tempest together would shut it down, but that's unrealistic.
Paint me the start of a good picture on how to hold it. Make the +25% to shields thing an upgrade on armory and make it take a while to research. Sorted. Doesn't affect early game and only helps as the game goes on against toss. It's awful design. An upgrade that literally only affects one matchup? I'd rather the upgrade buff Tanks dmg straight up. Meh, they had the warhound at anti-mechanical, which completely ignored tvz And the community agreed it was terrible.
Yeah I cant disagree with you, but I am just saying its not that far fetched of an idea... I mean archons are anti-biological
|
On October 28 2012 10:16 YyapSsap wrote:
I wonder if one of the biggest problems with this matchup in terms of mech is the HP of the protoss units. They all have alot of hitpoints and take a *** ton of tank shelling to be killed off. Where as you take a look at TvZ and mech builds do ok (i think its borderline since marauders eat them for lunch if you dont have many) since the enemy doesn't employ units that take 10+ shots to kill.
So the biggest question is, how does one buff tanks without affecting the other matchup? I think a slight buff e.g. +5 damage at the least on top of something that affects the P matchup would be suffice. Maybe like BW, it deals full damage to shields? this way it sort of buffs the tank vs archons/zealots which are some of the things that take forever to kill.
If you actually look at ZvP and PvP, it's the same picture everywhere:
Immortals, Colossi and Archons stomp every ground unit supply for supply in ZvP and PvP. There is a general problem with Protoss ground unit design because of that, as you are always forced to go air.
There are basically 3 figuered ways to beat Robo/Archon based play (without doing it yourself):
1) don't go ground and go air instead. (phoenix play, muta play, Broodlord play)
2) if you do go ground, don't engage ever (muta/ling/roach play, mass drop styles)
3) do a mixture of both of the above and use mass EMP, called bio play (even though when we actually count medivac and viking costs... it's more like bio/air than bio)
I think the core problem in all matchups is simply that Archons and Immortals are way too strong vs ground and make ground to ground strategies that don't superduperhardcounter those two basically irrelevant in the lategame. Colossus also plays a role in this, but I'd say it's counterable with Tanks/Ultras/Thors and usage of some air play.
|
On October 28 2012 10:16 YyapSsap wrote:
I wonder if one of the biggest problems with this matchup in terms of mech is the HP of the protoss units. They all have alot of hitpoints and take a *** ton of tank shelling to be killed off. Where as you take a look at TvZ and mech builds do ok (i think its borderline since marauders eat them for lunch if you dont have many) since the enemy doesn't employ units that take 10+ shots to kill.
So the biggest question is, how does one buff tanks without affecting the other matchup? I think a slight buff e.g. +5 damage at the least on top of something that affects the P matchup would be suffice. Maybe like BW, it deals full damage to shields? this way it sort of buffs the tank vs archons/zealots which are some of the things that take forever to kill.
Not a bad idea, have its tag as "vs armored AND shields"
|
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
In WoL the optimal late game for Mech was a BC transition. If you could survive you could get to a composition that everyone agrees, even MVP, is very strong. BC/Ghost(maybe some Tanks and Hellions). I feel like we took a big step forward in HotS with Widow Mines and Battle Hellions, and then a big step back with Tempests, which really make turtling into BC's not an option at all.
Outside of adding a new unit (perhaps a new ability?) I don't see how they can solve these issues without messing up the other match-ups.
|
I'm still a huge fan of giving widow mines upgrades in the tech lab to help them scale better late game. Attack should function more like how reavers produce scarabs, maybe with some stat tweaking to balance this out.
|
On October 28 2012 12:28 kidcrash wrote:
I'm still a huge fan of giving widow mines upgrades in the tech lab to help them scale better late game. Attack should function more like how reavers produce scarabs, maybe with some stat tweaking to balance this out.
I like this idea, for example there could be an upgrade on the armory that makes it possible for the widow mine to replenish its "missile" in 5 seconds using a set amount of resources e.g. 25min/25 gas.
|
I'd only make two changes to mech. I'd add something along the lines of Shaped Charge from the single player at armory level where Siege Tanks do additional damage to their primary target. Having greater single target damage will offset a lot of the problems they have in midgame, particularly dealing with high HP units like zealots. Then I'd reduce the recharge rate for Widow Mines to 15 seconds. No more than that.
Walking into a Widow Minefield should be a punishing experience. Staying in one should be suicide.
|
Dustin Browder recently posted they will be giving 250mm cannons a major redesign.
They could see this as a great opportunity to specifically help mech PvT. Perhaps a spell that eats through shields effectively?
|
Thors won't fix mech as long as they have energy bars. If they are actually trying to fix mech with the thor then that just shows once again that they don't have a clue.
If part of the major redesign is that it's with cooldown again, we can talk.
|
On October 28 2012 18:02 MasterCynical wrote:
Dustin Browder recently posted they will be giving 250mm cannons a major redesign.
They could see this as a great opportunity to specifically help mech PvT. Perhaps a spell that eats through shields effectively?
I don't see how that helps the air problem that Morrow wrote about.
Besides - didn't DB say that haywire missiles on thors didn't work as they were too few in number?
After hellbats were turned bio I question how seriously Blizzard takes the mech approach to TvP.
|
True it wont help with air, but if mech is stronger on ground you can dedicate more supply to vikings.
On October 28 2012 18:31 Laurens wrote:
Thors won't fix mech as long as they have energy bars. If they are actually trying to fix mech with the thor then that just shows once again that they don't have a clue.
I dont think that is completely true. Some random examples where it would be alot less problematic if they had energy bars:
1. The ability from the campaign, an area ability that isnt targeted on a unit. At least you can then drain your energy alot easier than currently, which would already be nice. But you can also start with it right at the beginning of the engagement, also for example useful against the zealots. While now you have to get close to his immortals for example to use strike cannons, which means you get feedbacked.
2. Current ability, but alot longer range. Simply use it outside HT range.
3. Something like protective shields. Can also be used to drain your own energy if needed, but aditionally you can cast it before the battle starts.
Not saying these would all be good ideas to implement, but in all cases feedback becomes alot less problematic.
|
On October 28 2012 09:57 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 09:40 architecture wrote:
My idea is really drastic, but given what I've seen on streams, and in general I think it makes sense:
Factory techlab upgrade unlocked at armory: Penetrator shells: siege tank shots ignore shields. So any 14-15m push will have 8+ tanks that can ignore shields.
That's right. Siege tanks eventually crush all P ground, given enough time to shoot at it. No matter what you introduce for T to handle P air, the fact is that it will significantly dilute T ground. T ground needs to be so strong that a straight up fight at 200 should largely result in a loss.
Right now it's simply not the case. T at best breaks even against P ground, and loses terribly in any suboptimal position. Basically eventually it needs to be a balancing act between ground and air strength, but right now there's no balance, just a huge amount of tipping. So you buy an upgrade that reduces Protoss ground health by ~33-50% as long as you don't bother being so stupid to "put some thought into your composition" and "switch it up" and build anything else than tanks. In the case of Archons by 96%. Sounds fair...
In BW:
1. T composition was composed of 3 units: tank vulture, and eventually goliath. Vessels/dropship/wraith sometimes used in VERY small numbers.
2. Archons were useless because they took full damage from everything.
You don't need to have an army balanced around equal parts of 4-6 unit types, like what exists today. That's also what contributes so heavily to deathballing, because you have all these unstable unit types that cannot function with out the other 4 there to support it.
As it exists now, requiring both significant tank and ghost count is unrealistic in dealing with protoss, because the air switch will destroy you. If it were in fact only ground vs ground in terms of what compositions are viable, then sure requiring ghosts in large numbers makes sense.
Another possibility is a significant buff to EMP radius. It looks like they will be working on making bio unviable (eg time warp), so as long as that is the case, then EMP radius is not a significant issue.
|
Also don't forget that T already theoretically has the ability to ignore 33-50% of protoss ground health, and this has not caused significant issues.
And wouldn't you agree that mech, as it exists right now, is easily 30%+ worse than an equal food/cost protoss ground army?
|
On October 28 2012 19:37 architecture wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 09:57 Big J wrote:On October 28 2012 09:40 architecture wrote:
My idea is really drastic, but given what I've seen on streams, and in general I think it makes sense:
Factory techlab upgrade unlocked at armory: Penetrator shells: siege tank shots ignore shields. So any 14-15m push will have 8+ tanks that can ignore shields.
That's right. Siege tanks eventually crush all P ground, given enough time to shoot at it. No matter what you introduce for T to handle P air, the fact is that it will significantly dilute T ground. T ground needs to be so strong that a straight up fight at 200 should largely result in a loss.
Right now it's simply not the case. T at best breaks even against P ground, and loses terribly in any suboptimal position. Basically eventually it needs to be a balancing act between ground and air strength, but right now there's no balance, just a huge amount of tipping. So you buy an upgrade that reduces Protoss ground health by ~33-50% as long as you don't bother being so stupid to "put some thought into your composition" and "switch it up" and build anything else than tanks. In the case of Archons by 96%. Sounds fair... In BW: 1. T composition was composed of 3 units: tank vulture, and eventually goliath. Vessels/dropship/wraith sometimes used in VERY small numbers. 2. Archons were useless because they took full damage from everything. You don't need to have an army balanced around equal parts of 4-6 unit types, like what exists today. That's also what contributes so heavily to deathballing, because you have all these unstable unit types that cannot function with out the other 4 there to support it. As it exists now, requiring both significant tank and ghost count is unrealistic in dealing with protoss, because the air switch will destroy you. If it were in fact only ground vs ground in terms of what compositions are viable, then sure requiring ghosts in large numbers makes sense. Another possibility is a significant buff to EMP radius. It looks like they will be working on making bio unviable (eg time warp), so as long as that is the case, then EMP radius is not a significant issue.
On October 28 2012 19:41 architecture wrote:
Also don't forget that T already theoretically has the ability to ignore 33-50% of protoss ground health, and this has not caused significant issues.
And wouldn't you agree that mech, as it exists right now, is easily 30%+ worse than an equal food/cost protoss ground army?
-) BW was different and 3-4 units (vulture, tank, Goliath, Vessel) is still more than 2units (Tank and Viking) to form an optimal army
-) the ghost+tank count is not unrealistic. Everyone gets it. It's not like it's hard to get or not available. The question is not how available it is, the question is if it can do what people want it to do.
About your airswitches:
-) Protoss can't "switch" to air like Z does. If suddenly a bunch of carriers apear and you are not prepared, then the Protoss built that up over like 5+minutes. More than enough time that you could have reacted.
-) Ghosts help with airswitches a ton.
-) Yeah, Terran has this EMP ability. It costs like 2000/1000/20 and takes quite some skill to pull it off, can be denied with microing against it and includes quite a bunch of passive costs and has to be rebuild. It's nothing like a 200/200 upgrade that you just click at some point in the game. Even more, EMP works in conjunction with other units. Your upgrade means that my nontank units will shoot shields, my tanks shoot armor. Hence, it doesn't help unless you go monotank, which is a stupid way to play the game. I agree that the tank should be the strongest GtG unit in the game (due to its design), but that doesn't mean monotank should be the best way to deal with everything on the ground.
-) Yes Mech loses a lot to P. and this will probably stay the same, until they adress the core problem, which is that Protoss vs ground is severly overpowered and the only reason why the game is balanced, is that Protoss vs Air is severly underpowered. Archons, Immortals and Colossi are a huge problem. Colossi can at least be countered with AtA units which basically limits the amount of Colossi you can have in an army. Immortals and Archons are just stupidly strong unless you can kite them or something like that, which is simply not a given thing for anything but MMM.
And about bio
-) Time Warp destroys bio? More like "thanks for donating 200gas into my vikings/ghost/marines, please keep on not getting more splash". Well, that's wrong as well, but it's really useless to discuss the unavailability of a whole strategy, because Protoss got an ability on an unused techpath that someone has theorycrafted about.
-) EMP is stupid enough as it is. I wish they would replace the antishield thing, as it is stupid by design (only one race with shields in the game)
|
On October 28 2012 20:23 Big J wrote:
-) EMP is stupid enough as it is. I wish they would replace the antishield thing, as it is stupid by design (only one race with shields in the game)
If that were the case I would to see its radius go back to to 2 but instead of taking away 100 shields it say for 10sec makes it to where units that are hit cannot use passive abilities. That would mean the immortal would not lose its 100 shields but its hardened shield would not work for 10 sec meaning two tank shots would be able to rid the immortal of its shield.
This would also have other affects too (so 10sec may be way too long) but spawning broodlings from the broodlord is a passive ability as is concussive shells
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
