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On October 13 2012 05:57 playa wrote:
1 base tech, but also while delaying their ability to get an expansion so it cancels out and then proceeds into a macro game. Not much luck involved, although it always helps, as with most builds. Seconds are everything when going DT. Before, it didn't really matter if they scouted it. Now... I doubt it's even an a option against the computer Zerg. If you don't need an evo chamber, perhaps we should be able to make an observer from the nexus or gateway. This game loses so much credibility with this random asymmetrical change.
Granted, it's been a very, very long time since I've been one-base DT rushed, but is there any common Zerg build in ZvP that doesn't get you an evo chamber before DTs can arrive?
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Cloaked units are really losing a lot of value as a result of these changes. Perhaps they are a bit too strong for lower level players in early stages of the game but now there is no real pressure from early cloak harassment. I don't know if this a good direction to be heading in.
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This is just a beautiful tapestry of the schizophrenic nature of the design changes so far.
Every race has required a supporting structure for stationary detection. Toss has had issues with detection for a long time. They introduce 1 new unit and zerg in one week get's an update to how quickly they can get detection support?
Revelation goes against of the grain of clear, straight forward spells.
Finally we have the flying colossus. Same cost, slightly different supply. Lets toss go air and a move from afar. Exciting.
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No energize? I am a sad Zealot.
Man, this Beta is going to be long with this, as far as I can see, scattergun approach to HotS. I already find these frequent updates exhausting. Although, from another point of view, it's also a regular dose for the many SC2 'junkies' on TL. Too long between balance patches, and there will be withdrawal symptoms for many on TL. LOL.
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On October 13 2012 06:03 ScaryFishy wrote:
Hellbat
Great. I can forsee some of the batman jokes coming from this
its hellion + firebat
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On October 13 2012 06:01 WickedBit wrote:
Wow so now tempest is basically a super viking ?
Also spores without evo and purify detecting ? It seems detection is now really cheap and easy to get. May not be a bad thing though.
Remember that in BW, Zerg spawned with detection, because overlords detected with no upgrade at all. 
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On October 13 2012 06:05 EleanorRIgby wrote:
wow i cant believe they buffed entomb the spell is already really good
They are buffing it because they can't get anyone to use it in beta, since the cost of stargate tech + oracle is expensive, and the returns on that investment are unreliable and not immediately apparent, unlike a storm raid / zealot drop.
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On October 13 2012 06:02 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +This won't stay in the game for long. What should Zerg do about a 15 range tempest somewhere in noman's land behind their main at the 6 or 7 minute mark, shooting at the drones? They cost 200 gas. Zergs will have spire to that time
No, they will not. Protoss can simply build that thing from one base, with a gateway-cybercore-stargate opening with early two gas, maybe even proxying the stargate. You need less buildings than for a DT rush and less gas, so you will be earlier than DTs. I guess that by proxying, having that thing shoot at the enemy's drones at 7:00 or 7:30 is possible.
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now how about any word on those beta invites..
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On October 13 2012 06:11 opus55 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2012 06:02 Existor wrote:This won't stay in the game for long. What should Zerg do about a 15 range tempest somewhere in noman's land behind their main at the 6 or 7 minute mark, shooting at the drones? They cost 200 gas. Zergs will have spire to that time No, they will not. Protoss can simply build that thing from one base, with a gateway-cybercore-stargate opening with early two gas, maybe even proxying the stargate. You need less buildings than for a DT rush and less gas, so you will be earlier than DTs. I guess that by proxying, having that thing shoot at the enemy's drones at 7:00 or 7:30 is possible.
Can you stay alive if you rush to Tempest that quickly?
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WHAT THE FREE SPORE CRAWLERS?!?!?!
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I dont think I like any of the changes except for maybe the viper changes ^^.
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I think Blizzard has mistaken the design philosophy of "gateway unit weakness" or in other words the gateway units balance around the warpgate mechanic with the inability to use them effectively. Gateway units ARE effective. They're just not effective in the way most protoss players want them to be.
Blizz, please take another read at the things we've been suggesting and don't chalk it up to bads playing protoss.
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Energize was probably the most exciting spell going for toss. Recall was going to be tinkered with but energize offered a way for tosses to hold positions after losing a giant engagement with some templar. Gah. Forget that. What about all the cool teching when you didnt need to spend so much gas on useless sentries.
edit: The viper changes loook broken.If they can easily dance in and steal collosi zvp isn't going to break the 14 minute mark.
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I really liked patches #1-#5.
Mixed feelings about this one.
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On October 13 2012 05:39 Limniscate wrote:
Protoss
Mothership Core
When Purify is cast on a player’s Nexus, it now also grants detection to 13 range.
Energize has been removed.
What exactly are you going to detect at 13 range? Swarm hosts are well outside that range.
Oracle
The cost of Entomb has been lowered from 100 to 75, while the duration has been increased from 50 to 60 seconds.
Revelation has been changed to the following:
This ability will now also work on buildings, granting 3 vision around every unit it hits.
The duration has been increased from 45 seconds to 60 seconds, and the cost has been increased from 50 to 75.
This ability will no longer grant detection.
This ability will not affect cloaked targets, even if you have detection of them at the time.
The button arrangement for this unit has been adjusted to list Void Siphon first and Entomb last.
Oracle no longer detect widow mines or swarm hosts. So much for those no-robo openers.
Tempest
This unit’s native bonus damage to massive units has been removed.
This unit no longer requires a Fleet Beacon.
We have added a new weapon upgrade called Quantic Reactor at the Fleet Beacon which will grant Tempest attacks +35 damage to massive units.
Quantic Reactor costs 200/200.
The cost of this unit has been changed from 300/300 to 300/200.
The supply cost for this unit has changed from 6 to 4.
The scale of this unit has been lowered from 1 to 0.9.
I'm going to test this, replacing VR rush with one tempest sitting in empty airspace on a map pecking away at your structures and there's nothing a zerg can do about it until spire goes up.
Zerg
Viper
Viper acceleration has been increased from 2.125 to 3.
The radius of Blinding Cloud has increased from 1.5 to 2.
Still needs to be 3 wide at the least to see any use.
Spore Crawler
This unit no longer requires an Evolution Chamber.
lol. SC2's tech tree is a complete clusterfuck of nonsense now. good job blizzard.
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On October 13 2012 06:06 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2012 05:57 playa wrote:
1 base tech, but also while delaying their ability to get an expansion so it cancels out and then proceeds into a macro game. Not much luck involved, although it always helps, as with most builds. Seconds are everything when going DT. Before, it didn't really matter if they scouted it. Now... I doubt it's even an a option against the computer Zerg. If you don't need an evo chamber, perhaps we should be able to make an observer from the nexus or gateway. This game loses so much credibility with this random asymmetrical change. Granted, it's been a very, very long time since I've been one-base DT rushed, but is there any common Zerg build in ZvP that doesn't get you an evo chamber before DTs can arrive?
Hmm, I'm no Zerg scholar... I can only speak from personal experiences at masters. I hardly ever encounter a zerg that already has spore crawlers up, unless it's a 2 base build, which is fine by me. The whole idea, at least for me, is to simply deny a third for as long as possible. Now, it's very doable. No evo... no longer much of a point to make dts in the early game. The spore crawlers simply cannot come earlier than they already do. It's just kinda frustrating to basically have a nerf against you simply because of a mu that doesn't involve Toss. That's just not the way to handle it.
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Tempests are so good now, reading this I think they'd need a range nerf.
I mean, 15 range and dealing 65 damage to massive with the upgrade seems really excessive.
Plus they are cheaper and only cost 4 supply now.
Would have to see it in practice though, before I can make any final judgement.
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High masters Terran here:
Wow Tempests and Hallucinations will be seriously wtf insane.
Tempests will be somewhat cost effective against Vikings in a head on fight while also having 6 more range AND shoots ground AND a far better counter to EVERYTHING. How is that even remotely fair? It went from being somewhat weak to being ridiculously powerful. And why are they 4 supply when Thors have the same cost but 6 supply? Mech TvP is now even more dead than it ever was. Not only do you have immortal/archon raping Hellbat/Tank, but you now have Tempests that are ridiculously good vs all non-bio units.
Free hallucinations? So now you have to waste a scan/mule every time a toss pokes at your front door or during any small skirmish. Free scouting every game now? And PvP will become 4gate hallucination wars until an obs is out. Horrible change.
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On October 13 2012 06:12 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2012 06:11 opus55 wrote:On October 13 2012 06:02 Existor wrote:This won't stay in the game for long. What should Zerg do about a 15 range tempest somewhere in noman's land behind their main at the 6 or 7 minute mark, shooting at the drones? They cost 200 gas. Zergs will have spire to that time No, they will not. Protoss can simply build that thing from one base, with a gateway-cybercore-stargate opening with early two gas, maybe even proxying the stargate. You need less buildings than for a DT rush and less gas, so you will be earlier than DTs. I guess that by proxying, having that thing shoot at the enemy's drones at 7:00 or 7:30 is possible. Can you stay alive if you rush to Tempest that quickly?
People will get a couple free wins off doing this and flustering an opponent. I doubt you can stay alive to an opponent that suspects it. It would be annoying to deal with though especially as zerg because it seems to force spire?
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EPT
