Avilo (T) vs Wilko (P) Intelligent engagements by Wilko neutralises widow mine's effectiveness.
Yeah.. T won't win every single game, especially when opponent is playing intelligently. A case where a Protoss plays well a win... shows that Mech is not viable?
the most fun part about this is that mech is said to be weaker earlier on, but avilo wins every engagement with widow mine/siege tank for the first 15mins offensively. I'm really looking forward seeing MVP play with those things
Avilo (T) vs Wilko (P) Intelligent engagements by Wilko neutralises widow mine's effectiveness.
Yeah.. T won't win every single game, especially when opponent is playing intelligently. A case where a Protoss plays well a win... shows that Mech is not viable?
the most fun part about this is that mech is said to be weaker earlier on, but avilo wins every engagement with widow mine/siege tank for the first 15mins offensively. I'm really looking forward seeing MVP play with those things
Against zerg and bio, mech is the weakest early on, however against protoss mech becomes incredibly weak late game which is why pros don't user mech in WoL. Immortals and Archons are still a MASSIVE problem for mech, especially with the archons being warped in so quickly late game and ghosts being so hard to keep alive/hit EMPs with due to the archons size.
I think until they change the immortal/archon to not counter tanks completely, mech will never be able to be fully good against protoss at a pro level.
Avilo (T) vs Wilko (P) Intelligent engagements by Wilko neutralises widow mine's effectiveness.
Yeah.. T won't win every single game, especially when opponent is playing intelligently. A case where a Protoss plays well a win... shows that Mech is not viable?
the most fun part about this is that mech is said to be weaker earlier on, but avilo wins every engagement with widow mine/siege tank for the first 15mins offensively. I'm really looking forward seeing MVP play with those things
Against zerg and bio, mech is the weakest early on, however against protoss mech becomes incredibly weak late game which is why pros don't user mech in WoL. Immortals and Archons are still a MASSIVE problem for mech, especially with the archons being warped in so quickly late game and ghosts being so hard to keep alive/hit EMPs with due to the archons size.
I think until they change the immortal/archon to not counter tanks completely, mech will never be able to be fully good against protoss at a pro level.
I can't comment to much on that, as I don't have HotS to test those things. But imo lategame Ghostmech is way stronger than early game hellion/tank in WoL vs Protoss.
I don't know, but I think there are quite some good ways to battle protoss with a mechbased composition, but it will probably require more than tank/mine for 20minutes and expect to win every combat as long as you are sieged/burrowed.
Avilo (T) vs Wilko (P) Intelligent engagements by Wilko neutralises widow mine's effectiveness.
Yeah.. T won't win every single game, especially when opponent is playing intelligently. A case where a Protoss plays well a win... shows that Mech is not viable?
the most fun part about this is that mech is said to be weaker earlier on, but avilo wins every engagement with widow mine/siege tank for the first 15mins offensively. I'm really looking forward seeing MVP play with those things
Against zerg and bio, mech is the weakest early on, however against protoss mech becomes incredibly weak late game which is why pros don't user mech in WoL. Immortals and Archons are still a MASSIVE problem for mech, especially with the archons being warped in so quickly late game and ghosts being so hard to keep alive/hit EMPs with due to the archons size.
I think until they change the immortal/archon to not counter tanks completely, mech will never be able to be fully good against protoss at a pro level.
I can't comment to much on that, as I don't have HotS to test those things. But imo lategame Ghostmech is way stronger than early game hellion/tank in WoL vs Protoss.
I don't know, but I think there are quite some good ways to battle protoss with a mechbased composition, but it will probably require more than tank/mine for 20minutes and expect to win every combat as long as you are sieged/burrowed.
Ghostmech is still not that good against Protoss because Ghosts are pretty gas heavy. Plus once you land some EMPs, the Protoss can choose not to engage and retreat to regenerate shields. Of course being a mech player means you can't chase after the army.
Mines don't change the core problem of mech TvP which is Immortals and energy bars but instead changed the game to the point that several other strategies are not viable anymore.
Avilo (T) vs Wilko (P) Intelligent engagements by Wilko neutralises widow mine's effectiveness.
Yeah.. T won't win every single game, especially when opponent is playing intelligently. A case where a Protoss plays well a win... shows that Mech is not viable?
the most fun part about this is that mech is said to be weaker earlier on, but avilo wins every engagement with widow mine/siege tank for the first 15mins offensively. I'm really looking forward seeing MVP play with those things
I want to see MVP cause a bunch of balance patches in the first few months also. Probably at the end of it, they'll take the nerf stick to mech so hard it will break terran. Let no one say that terran is op or up until the God plays!
Aw, I'm sad to see mothership core's energize removed. And I'm not even a protoss player.
Day[9] showed some replays in one of his dailies that showed some really creative mothership core usage. Including using energize on a sentry so you can hold your ramp with one sentry early game rather than several sentries.
On October 16 2012 10:20 Amaroq64 wrote: Aw, I'm sad to see mothership core's energize removed. And I'm not even a protoss player.
Day[9] showed some replays in one of his dailies that showed some really creative mothership core usage. Including using energize on a sentry so you can hold your ramp with one sentry early game rather than several sentries.
Yes, this is just one application of energize I was looking forward to in HotS. It added so much to protoss. If you don't have to make 5 sentries in the early game, that's 400 extra gas you can use to tech with earlier, or just gas you don't have to mine so you can expand earlier. I'm disgusted that they would take out such a dynamic ability just to try to better balance the most linear new ability in the game (entomb).
What Wilko showed is that if you have the deathball that'll ROFLSTOMP under 30s, widow mines aren't even a threat. I also noticed that the widow mine splash only seems to 10 dmg to immortal, can someone with beta key confirm?
On October 15 2012 12:39 Kharnage wrote:The entire dynamic of air based harass, drops, blink the whole shebang is just completely nullified.
Melodramatic theorycrafting is melodramatic. Mutalisks have a vision range of 11 and a speed of 3.5. Widow Mines have a vision range of 7, an attack range of 5, a speed of 2.8 and a burrow time of 3 seconds.
How in the world is this Widow Mine catching your clump of Mutas unprepared, pray tell? Three seconds is plenty of time to snipe a Mine, if he hasn't been massing them, and you have the sight range to intercept it while it's en route, buying you another 0.5/1 seconds even in the hands of a fast player.
And if you can't snipe it, just fly away. The Muta is faster, it will have at least 6 range's worth of space to see the Widow Mine coming EVEN IF the T positions his Mine precisely 6 range away and somehow knows that you won't move your Mutas 1 range away, making him lose 10 seconds of burrowing and un-burrowing for absolutely no gain. The Muta's power has always been in its ability to be in 10 places at once, and the Widow Mine is by definition immobile. It has to be rooted down to attack.
3/3 Stimmed Marines don't make a base Muta-proof despite their speed, but a handful of unupgradeable, slow, burrowing Widow Mines suddenly will? I'll believe it when I see it.
...you realize mutas can't see mines when they're burrowed, right?
...you realize that before a mine can be any kind of useful, it has to get into attacking range of Mutas, right? And then burrow for three seconds? And then it has to reposition itself once it becomes completely useless because the Mutas aren't worker sniping anymore but depot sniping instead. And again, once the Mutas switch target. And again.
Or if you want to play it 100% safe, keep one Muta within 11 range of the Factory so that you can see where he burrows his mine once it pops out, hoping to catch you unawares with one big boom in some hidden corner. Except you, now knowing where it's burrowed, can safely ignore it.
Or bring an Overseer. Gasp.
How seriously stupid are you?
Keep 1 muta within vision of hte factory and 100% of your focus on watching for the widow mine when it burrows? How does he then inject? How doe the muta player take advantage the 'pressure' is intended to create?
Look, stop being a total jackass and think for a moment how a game actually plays out.
Either you scout mutas on route or when they fly into your base and you go into crisis management. Move some marines, run your scv's etc. A few workers die, then the mutas back off for a bit and the zerg player does some actions in their own base such as injects, putting up a 4th base, start some upgrades and a round of drones. Then their focus returns to their muta flock which then returns to harass a min line, or a depot, or whatever they can do without putting the entire flock at risk. The cunning zergy sees some marines covering one place, moves to attack an apparantly vulnerable location and boom, 1 muta dies, half the flock loses 40hp (half health).
The harassment is done. The pressure is done. It's like they just got hit by a storm. In fact, this is a great way to look at it. Think of it as a cloaked HT with a range 5 storm on autocast. How do you harass that base? HOW? HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE HOW STUPID THE FUCKING MINE IS??????
Gosh. If only Zerg had easy access to a flying detector that could see any burrowed mines from 11 range away AND had enough HP to tank a hit, if it came to it, without dying!
Harassment is all about getting in quickly, doing some damage, and getting out before the other player reacts. Half the time you need to be able to do it BLINDLY while you manage an engagement in the middle of the map or while defending your own fucking base.
You lose a LOT of that window of opportunity if you have to lead with an overseer to 'tank' a mine shot. Don't forget, even if you spot the mine, you can't engage it with range 4 mutas.
Not only that, but all shift queue harass while defending your base is over. You're pushing my front so i queue my warp prism to drop 4 zealots in your mineral line and fly away while all my focus is on FF and warping in units to try and hold the front. Pointless. 1 mine kills WP, no harass. 0 focus required from terran player. Shift queue mutas to attack mineral line while microing ling/bling at the zerg 3rd. Forget that. 1 Mine, mutas dead. At no attention cost to the terran. None. Not even a big investment. 75/25 and no backstab options.
Basically harassing a terran base is much much MUCH harder than before, requiring total focus, with detector units for it to even be viable at minimal cost to the terran.
This is what pros are capable of. And you're whining about the loss of queue harass? Really? Really? Would it actually surprise you to learn that I'm not the least bit sympathetic to the plight of those who can't order one unit to move ahead of another one?
If Z suspects T has a mine, lead with an Overlord or an Overseer, problem solved. Period. Seriously, any Z will have an Ovie there already for scouting purposes, just push in 5 seconds before you go in with Mutas, soak up the damage, and for forty seconds that mine is useless. And the Ovie isn't even dead.
Your example from beginning to end has "gold league" written all over it. "0 focus required from terran player." The Mine is so easily negated, the T will have to focus on it to get any use out of it, except if his opponent is so stressed out that he can't properly multitask.
But poor multitasking should be punished.
Well done, you found a clip from a different game doing something completely different. Well, now i'm convinced.
Fine, 2 mines. they are stupidly cheap in all aspects except supply, which only matter when the terran maxes out.
Basically your argument is that players should be punished for poor multitasking, except terran who have a burrowed baneling with 5 range and auto cast that reloads every 40 seconds. Maybe I'll declare you must be a silver league and therefore your point of view is invalid.
The amount of focus required to get any use out of mines is the same as planting a cannon. Move, burrow. Done. Now all the work is on the other guy. At most the T player will move their workers towards their mines when harassed. Harsh man. Point well made!
Leading with an overseer might deal with 1 mine, maybe even 2, though you will lose the seer to tank the 2nd hit, buying the zerg '40 seconds' of harass time (for 150/50, but never mind that) leaving the terran in exactly the same position they were in before adding mines. If the terran has a viking cleaning up OL around their base then you won't have those options, and never mind that they would be insanely slow for the task without the speed upgrade.
But hey, that's ok cause it's a huge cost and risk to the terran right. They have to build a factory, which they would never get otherwise. It also requires that other building ... oh, that's right. It doesn't. You can just make a few, plant them around your base and now it's super risky for a zerg to fly in. That justifies the 800/800 the zerg player sunk into 8 mutalisks.
Try and put your bias and your BS about how your 1000point master in Kr and i'm a gold scrub or whatever to one side for a sec and ask yourself. As a zerg, would you EVER go muta vs terran over infestor now that widow mines are in the game? Under what conditions would you consider that good choice?
This alone proves how clueless you are, d'yu know what friendly fire means? Moving all of your SCVs towards a mine would mean instant death (or at least instant 5hp) for 70% of them, providing the opponent knows how to play Starcraft 2.
widow mines are not good offensively in the late game because of the burrow requirement and short range. Tanks need time to sieged up as well but at least they have insane range. In terms of protecting the tanks i think the hellbats do a better job.
The only good thing about the mine is their defensive ability, so terrans can turtle up and macro. But what's the point of turtling when terrans still has the worst late game in sc2?
On October 14 2012 16:59 larse wrote: If you count the means of detection of each race, u will know why.
So Zerg has overseers, toss has observers, terran has raven. These are the only constant mobile detection each of the races have. They all have static defense detection with spores, cannons, turrets. And they all had units that can detect with a mana base ability fungal/scan/revelation. Purify being like a super cannon with additional static defense (non mobile) doesnt add so much detection they needed to remove revelation....
I agree. Oracle with revelation + detection made you not always have to get robo for obs (though in most cases, people did anywhere).
I mean, I like the concept of Oracle having detection too.
It's not too different from Ghost decloaking with EMP, Infestors with Fungal, etc.
On October 16 2012 10:20 Amaroq64 wrote: Aw, I'm sad to see mothership core's energize removed. And I'm not even a protoss player.
Day[9] showed some replays in one of his dailies that showed some really creative mothership core usage. Including using energize on a sentry so you can hold your ramp with one sentry early game rather than several sentries.
Yes, this is just one application of energize I was looking forward to in HotS. It added so much to protoss. If you don't have to make 5 sentries in the early game, that's 400 extra gas you can use to tech with earlier, or just gas you don't have to mine so you can expand earlier. I'm disgusted that they would take out such a dynamic ability just to try to better balance the most linear new ability in the game (entomb).
I agree. The simplest solution would to be make energize not usable on flying units or make it so it gives different units different amount of energy (all of them easy to do with the editor).
^ Or change entombed into something not stupid and incredibly monodimensional. As it is right now it's just one more thing you have to remember to do every x seconds, but it really doesn't separate bad playerse from good ones and great ones.
Something really strange and incomprehensible about HotS: The Zergs.
I thought Blizzard wanted to discourage deathball play, and wanted to give Zerg some more options to break T/P opponents without having to tech all the way up to Hive.
As it stands, Z late game is becoming even more monstrous. All their good stuff is coming at mid-Lair to Hive. (Swarm Host, Hydra speed, Viper, Ultra Charge, etc.,on top of the existing BL+Infestor deathballs)
Meanwhile in early-to-mid game, Zerg have basically have the same stuff they have in WoL while T/P get game-changing new stuff. Most of games at pro-level will be decided in early~mid game at the early stage of HotS, and I don't know whether it makes sense or is even fair to pit WoL Zerg against HotS Terran/Protoss. Maps will accordingly have to be changed to Zerg QQ's, and eventually the players will be forced to play long games. And then T/P's QQ will break out against unstoppable Zerg late game.
Something is very wrong here and I can't exactly pinpoint it
Edit: I mean, if you thought Spine farms + Brood Lords + Bazillion Infestors were bad, imagine Spine farms + Brood Lords + Infestors + Swarm hosts + Vipers + Hydras. It's ultimate 1A army with only micro for Vipers and Infestors.
Entomed could be tweaked to be more interesting, no? Quite easily.
Instead of blocking whole mineral patches, make a single cast block one or two patches. Lower the energy spent for the spell, lower the speed of oracle, but give more hitpoints. Then we will have a kind of cat-and-mouse type of micro war between oracles vs. enemies. (kind of like muta harrass)
Entomed in its current state is perhaps the most boring spell in existence in SC2 universe.
On October 16 2012 17:14 usethis2 wrote: Entomed could be tweaked to be more interesting, no? Quite easily.
Instead of blocking whole mineral patches, make a single cast block one or two patches. Lower the energy spent for the spell, lower the speed of oracle, but give more hitpoints. Then we will have a kind of cat-and-mouse type of micro war between oracles vs. enemies. (kind of like muta harrass)
Entomed in its current state is perhaps the most boring spell in existence in SC2 universe.
And what, you will see Protoss players shift+click Entomb, resulting in same thing we have right now with just a couple of more clicks. They won't watch the Oracle, nor micro it. it is the same thing as with Infested Terrans. In the Alpha, Infestors could spawn 5 Infested Terrans at the same time, and they cost about 100 energy. Now, they cast them one by one for 25 energy, and does that look interesting, or more skillful? Nope, it just makes it a spam fest.
They deleted the Warhound, first mistake, sure it was op, but it just needed some nerf in DPS or speed and an increase in the cost. But no, IT'S OP KILL IT WITH FIRE!
You need to calm down and analyze stuff better. Warhound problem was beyond their OP status. I was a freaking 1a uber flat unit. Worst units design wise from SC2 WoL are Roaches and Marauders. The warhound was the new king of the hill.
freaking 1a unit? was about time terran got it... toss n zerg have alredy 5-6-7 a move units while terran have 0.
They deleted the Warhound, first mistake, sure it was op, but it just needed some nerf in DPS or speed and an increase in the cost. But no, IT'S OP KILL IT WITH FIRE!
You need to calm down and analyze stuff better. Warhound problem was beyond their OP status. I was a freaking 1a uber flat unit. Worst units design wise from SC2 WoL are Roaches and Marauders. The warhound was the new king of the hill.
freaking 1a unit? was about time terran got it... toss n zerg have alredy 5-6-7 a move units while terran have 0.
... And the better way to fix this is making Terran a-movy? I beg to freaking differ. How about making Z and P less a-movy instead? SEEMS GENIUS RIGHT?
EPT
