We will be bringing the beta down shortly to make the following balance changes. Thanks again for all the great help you have contributed in testing Swarm; we look forward to receiving more of your input on the changes listed below. Hop in there, play a bunch of games and let us know!
Protoss Mothership Core When Purify is cast on a player’s Nexus, it now also grants detection to 13 range. Energize has been removed.
Oracle The cost of Entomb has been lowered from 100 to 75, while the duration has been increased from 50 to 60 seconds. Revelation has been changed to the following: This ability will now also work on buildings, granting 3 vision around every unit it hits. The duration has been increased from 45 seconds to 60 seconds, and the cost has been increased from 50 to 75. This ability will no longer grant detection. This ability will not affect cloaked targets, even if you have detection of them at the time. The button arrangement for this unit has been adjusted to list Void Siphon first and Entomb last.
Tempest This unit’s native bonus damage to massive units has been removed. This unit no longer requires a Fleet Beacon. We have added a new weapon upgrade called Quantic Reactor at the Fleet Beacon which will grant Tempest attacks +35 damage to massive units. Quantic Reactor costs 200/200. The cost of this unit has been changed from 300/300 to 300/200. The supply cost for this unit has changed from 6 to 4. The scale of this unit has been lowered from 1 to 0.9.
Sentry Hallucination no longer requires research.
Zerg Viper Viper acceleration has been increased from 2.125 to 3. The radius of Blinding Cloud has increased from 1.5 to 2.
Spore Crawler This unit no longer requires an Evolution Chamber.
Terran Widow Mine The setup time for this unit has been increased from 2 seconds to 3 seconds.
Battle Hellion This unit has been renamed to “Hellbat.”
Energize is mainly an ability that caters to the Oracle, so that Entomb can be cast twice at once, right when the Oracle comes into play. We felt that, rather than having to balance spell casters around this ability, it was better to just balance spells on their own. Energize seemed a bit limited, and on the design side, we felt it was not an interesting spell that has many viable uses.
Widow Mine
We’ve increased the Widow Mine setup time from 2 to 3 seconds. We wanted a change to the Widow Mine that makes it slightly more difficult to use them in combat, but we didn’t want to eliminate this usage. Our current goal for the Widow Mine is for them to be very all-around and usable in many key locations on the map, good on the defense, and good in combination with your army. We think the Widow Mine has great potential as the new core unit for the Terran, and we want to be extra careful in making sure that it remains a powerful option even when players start figuring out how to fight against them.
One issue we’re seeing, however, is all-in rushes using early Widow Mines are a bit too much, so we’re trying a couple of changes for the other races in order to help with this specific area:
Protoss Mothership Core’s Purify ability now also serves as a detector. Spore Crawlers now require Spawning Pool (not the Evolution Chamber).
Oracle
Because Energize is removed, we felt it’s necessary to improve Entomb in order to compensate for their reduced strength.
Revelation has been changed to be more of an army scouting option, due to Mothership Core Purify now being a detector.
Sentry
We’ve been getting a lot of feedback from lower-level Protoss players saying that gateway units are weak because Warp Gates are too good, Force Fields are too difficult to use, etc. We’ve also noticed that scouting in Heart of the Swarm is more important than ever due to new threats out there.
We’re comfortable with the current power level of gateway units and their fit in the Protoss arsenal. It’s not uncommon for mass Zealots or lots of Stalkers to do awesome things. Perhaps Sentries can be a bit difficult to utilize, but this is only because this unit revolves so much around good Force Field usage.
At this time, we feel that removing the research requirement on Hallucination is something we can try in the beta.
Tempest
We’re trying a new direction with the Tempest. With the Fleet Beacon requirement removed, it will be possible to use Tempests as long-range, low-DPS harassers in the mid-game. The counter to Tempests would be to kill the units that are spotting for the Tempest until air units come into play. This is a purely experimental change, so please take some time to play with it and give us your feedback.
Viper
Thanks to a lot of feedback from many of our beta participants, we’ve decided to increase the radius of Blinding Cloud. Please play with and against the new Viper, and let us know how it goes.
Thank you so much for playing the beta and helping us improve Heart of the Swarm. As always, we aren’t trying to solve every single issue and potential issue with this beta patch, and we hope to continue making Heart of the Swarm better and better with each update.
Wow... The people were right... hallucination requiring no upgrade now is kind of crazy...also the spore crawler change umm... I am pretty happy I guess, but the widow mine will still be strong , I guess now you will have an extra second to kill it before it burrows, and it will be easier to stop the widow mine rushes since you won't have to build an evo chamber... interesting.....Also, hellbat? Haha, weird.
DT strats are no longer viable against Zerg because they don't know how to properly balance the widow mine? Nice. Throw enough random darts, I'm sure you're bound to eventually hit near the middle. Prepared to wait two years + for this beta to end. The only question is when will the changes tempt me to play it again. At this rate, probably never.
Tempest no longer requires fleet beacon and costs 100 less gas. Tempest harass just went from completely useless to.....I'm not sure what. How does Zerg prevent tempest harass at 9 minutes? Do they just stop mining until they get a spire?
On October 13 2012 05:50 playa wrote: DT strats are no longer viable against Zerg because they don't know how to properly balance the widow mine? Nice. Throw enough random darts, I'm sure you're bound to eventually hit near the middle. Prepared to wait two years + for this beta to end. The only question is when will the changes tempt me to play it again. At this rate, probably never.
Making the spore crawler not require a evo chamber isn't going to really effect the effectiveness of a Dark templars in PvZ, Are you just 1 base DT rushing Zergs, and crossing your fingers hoping you win? DT's are not very effective vs Zerg ever in my mind, this change isn't going to change much vs P I don't think
wow big changes.. no evo chamber requirement. Tempest change might actualy be really good. but energize leaving makes me sad... it had so much potential
Protoss does have issues with scouting in WoL, but I think no research hellu is a little excessive. It's almost giving perfect information for the whole game.
Terran now has no cost efficient answer to the tempest. 300/150 for two vikings, 300/200 for a tempest. 1 tempest can take 2 vikings. What does does terran make to answer Tempest / Zealot now (assuming the protoss is clever enough to keep the tempests near cliffs and ridges)?
On October 13 2012 05:50 playa wrote: DT strats are no longer viable against Zerg because they don't know how to properly balance the widow mine? Nice. Throw enough random darts, I'm sure you're bound to eventually hit near the middle. Prepared to wait two years + for this beta to end. The only question is when will the changes tempt me to play it again. At this rate, probably never.
Making the spore crawler not require a evo chamber isn't going to really effect the effectiveness of a Dark templars in PvZ, Are you just 1 base DT rushing Zergs, and crossing your fingers hoping you win? DT's are not very effective vs Zerg ever in my mind, this change isn't going to change much vs P I don't think
1 base tech, but also while delaying their ability to get an expansion so it cancels out and then proceeds into a macro game. Not much luck involved, although it always helps, as with most builds. Seconds are everything when going DT. Before, it didn't really matter if they scouted it. Now... I doubt it's even an a option against the computer Zerg. If you don't need an evo chamber, perhaps we should be able to make an observer from the nexus or gateway. This game loses so much credibility with this random asymmetrical change.
Also, so many vision changes for all races is making the game have an almost unlimited potential of seeing most of the map at all times. I always liked it when it wasn't all revealed so easily.
Actually think chucking energize is a good thing. It kind of just make early game toss even MORE pinned on the sentry? Also purify detection gives some nice wiggle room from robo.
LOL@ Hellbat. :D Kind of love it though.
Nice tweak to Viper.
Guess void siphon will need more time to figure out what to do with it...
Still keeping fingers crossed that they might make SOME kind of tweak to the whole sentry/warpgate stuff. There have been quite a few really excellent threads lately about the feel of protoss in sc2... but then I suppose they wouldn't be doing that kind of stuff until they pin down more of the design with the new units
Tempest no longer requires fleet beacon and costs 100 less gas. Tempest harass just went from completely useless to.....I'm not sure what. How does Zerg prevent tempest harass at 9 minutes? Do they just stop mining until they get a spire?
I think they will have Spire before 10th minute. And it will be only ONE tempest because of their cost
Wow so now tempest is basically a super viking ? Also spores without evo and purify detecting ? It seems detection is now really cheap and easy to get. May not be a bad thing though.
On October 13 2012 05:39 Limniscate wrote: Tempest This unit’s native bonus damage to massive units has been removed. This unit no longer requires a Fleet Beacon. We have added a new weapon upgrade called Quantic Reactor at the Fleet Beacon which will grant Tempest attacks +35 damage to massive units. Quantic Reactor costs 200/200. The cost of this unit has been changed from 300/300 to 300/200. The supply cost for this unit has changed from 6 to 4. The scale of this unit has been lowered from 1 to 0.9.
This won't stay in the game for long. What should Zerg do about a 15 range tempest somewhere in noman's land behind their main at the 6 or 7 minute mark, shooting at the drones?
Now its getting really ridiculous really quick. Ok the changes for the tempest and the viper may work out, but beside of that, have they even listend to one of the toss core issues discussions on tl or even on their own side.
-Hallucination no longer requires research.
Thats their answer to all of the discussions about toss issues. How will this fix that nearly every toss game looks and plays the same . It doesnt matter that:Hallucination no longer requires research. Because they still get to the deatball situation in lategame and need to vortex , because they cant handle infestor/broodloard otherwise.Whats about the collosus, they dont want to talk about that unit even if most part of the toss community wants to talk about changes on the collosus. And whats about strengthen the airplay. Didnt they want to change something on the voidray.
I also cant belive that they still sticking with the oracle and ecpecially with entomb in its current form.
This won't stay in the game for long. What should Zerg do about a 15 range tempest somewhere in noman's land behind their main at the 6 or 7 minute mark, shooting at the drones?
They cost 200 gas. Zergs will have spire to that time
My goodness! First things that really struck me were the hallucination and spore crawler changes. Those are absolutely enormous. Protoss scouting is going to be very powerful, and going air against zerg is going to be a lot more difficult.
Hallucination. Long time overdue. Let the WoL unit balancing begin!
Tempest, love it. Really interested to see it turn out.
Viper, love it. Blinding cloud really needed this imo. Acceleration is always good.
Spore Crawler... Weird but probably necessary if they don't want to change the widow mine like that. Also with even more power to the early Stargate...
On October 13 2012 05:57 playa wrote: 1 base tech, but also while delaying their ability to get an expansion so it cancels out and then proceeds into a macro game. Not much luck involved, although it always helps, as with most builds. Seconds are everything when going DT. Before, it didn't really matter if they scouted it. Now... I doubt it's even an a option against the computer Zerg. If you don't need an evo chamber, perhaps we should be able to make an observer from the nexus or gateway. This game loses so much credibility with this random asymmetrical change.
Granted, it's been a very, very long time since I've been one-base DT rushed, but is there any common Zerg build in ZvP that doesn't get you an evo chamber before DTs can arrive?
Cloaked units are really losing a lot of value as a result of these changes. Perhaps they are a bit too strong for lower level players in early stages of the game but now there is no real pressure from early cloak harassment. I don't know if this a good direction to be heading in.
This is just a beautiful tapestry of the schizophrenic nature of the design changes so far.
Every race has required a supporting structure for stationary detection. Toss has had issues with detection for a long time. They introduce 1 new unit and zerg in one week get's an update to how quickly they can get detection support?
Revelation goes against of the grain of clear, straight forward spells.
Finally we have the flying colossus. Same cost, slightly different supply. Lets toss go air and a move from afar. Exciting.
Man, this Beta is going to be long with this, as far as I can see, scattergun approach to HotS. I already find these frequent updates exhausting. Although, from another point of view, it's also a regular dose for the many SC2 'junkies' on TL. Too long between balance patches, and there will be withdrawal symptoms for many on TL. LOL.
On October 13 2012 06:01 WickedBit wrote: Wow so now tempest is basically a super viking ? Also spores without evo and purify detecting ? It seems detection is now really cheap and easy to get. May not be a bad thing though.
Remember that in BW, Zerg spawned with detection, because overlords detected with no upgrade at all.
On October 13 2012 06:05 EleanorRIgby wrote: wow i cant believe they buffed entomb the spell is already really good
They are buffing it because they can't get anyone to use it in beta, since the cost of stargate tech + oracle is expensive, and the returns on that investment are unreliable and not immediately apparent, unlike a storm raid / zealot drop.
This won't stay in the game for long. What should Zerg do about a 15 range tempest somewhere in noman's land behind their main at the 6 or 7 minute mark, shooting at the drones?
They cost 200 gas. Zergs will have spire to that time
No, they will not. Protoss can simply build that thing from one base, with a gateway-cybercore-stargate opening with early two gas, maybe even proxying the stargate. You need less buildings than for a DT rush and less gas, so you will be earlier than DTs. I guess that by proxying, having that thing shoot at the enemy's drones at 7:00 or 7:30 is possible.
This won't stay in the game for long. What should Zerg do about a 15 range tempest somewhere in noman's land behind their main at the 6 or 7 minute mark, shooting at the drones?
They cost 200 gas. Zergs will have spire to that time
No, they will not. Protoss can simply build that thing from one base, with a gateway-cybercore-stargate opening with early two gas, maybe even proxying the stargate. You need less buildings than for a DT rush and less gas, so you will be earlier than DTs. I guess that by proxying, having that thing shoot at the enemy's drones at 7:00 or 7:30 is possible.
Can you stay alive if you rush to Tempest that quickly?
I think Blizzard has mistaken the design philosophy of "gateway unit weakness" or in other words the gateway units balance around the warpgate mechanic with the inability to use them effectively. Gateway units ARE effective. They're just not effective in the way most protoss players want them to be.
Blizz, please take another read at the things we've been suggesting and don't chalk it up to bads playing protoss.
Energize was probably the most exciting spell going for toss. Recall was going to be tinkered with but energize offered a way for tosses to hold positions after losing a giant engagement with some templar. Gah. Forget that. What about all the cool teching when you didnt need to spend so much gas on useless sentries.
edit: The viper changes loook broken.If they can easily dance in and steal collosi zvp isn't going to break the 14 minute mark.
On October 13 2012 05:39 Limniscate wrote: Protoss Mothership Core When Purify is cast on a player’s Nexus, it now also grants detection to 13 range. Energize has been removed.
What exactly are you going to detect at 13 range? Swarm hosts are well outside that range.
Oracle The cost of Entomb has been lowered from 100 to 75, while the duration has been increased from 50 to 60 seconds. Revelation has been changed to the following: This ability will now also work on buildings, granting 3 vision around every unit it hits. The duration has been increased from 45 seconds to 60 seconds, and the cost has been increased from 50 to 75. This ability will no longer grant detection. This ability will not affect cloaked targets, even if you have detection of them at the time. The button arrangement for this unit has been adjusted to list Void Siphon first and Entomb last.
Oracle no longer detect widow mines or swarm hosts. So much for those no-robo openers.
Tempest This unit’s native bonus damage to massive units has been removed. This unit no longer requires a Fleet Beacon. We have added a new weapon upgrade called Quantic Reactor at the Fleet Beacon which will grant Tempest attacks +35 damage to massive units. Quantic Reactor costs 200/200. The cost of this unit has been changed from 300/300 to 300/200. The supply cost for this unit has changed from 6 to 4. The scale of this unit has been lowered from 1 to 0.9.
I'm going to test this, replacing VR rush with one tempest sitting in empty airspace on a map pecking away at your structures and there's nothing a zerg can do about it until spire goes up.
Zerg Viper Viper acceleration has been increased from 2.125 to 3. The radius of Blinding Cloud has increased from 1.5 to 2.
Still needs to be 3 wide at the least to see any use.
Spore Crawler This unit no longer requires an Evolution Chamber.
lol. SC2's tech tree is a complete clusterfuck of nonsense now. good job blizzard.
On October 13 2012 05:57 playa wrote: 1 base tech, but also while delaying their ability to get an expansion so it cancels out and then proceeds into a macro game. Not much luck involved, although it always helps, as with most builds. Seconds are everything when going DT. Before, it didn't really matter if they scouted it. Now... I doubt it's even an a option against the computer Zerg. If you don't need an evo chamber, perhaps we should be able to make an observer from the nexus or gateway. This game loses so much credibility with this random asymmetrical change.
Granted, it's been a very, very long time since I've been one-base DT rushed, but is there any common Zerg build in ZvP that doesn't get you an evo chamber before DTs can arrive?
Hmm, I'm no Zerg scholar... I can only speak from personal experiences at masters. I hardly ever encounter a zerg that already has spore crawlers up, unless it's a 2 base build, which is fine by me. The whole idea, at least for me, is to simply deny a third for as long as possible. Now, it's very doable. No evo... no longer much of a point to make dts in the early game. The spore crawlers simply cannot come earlier than they already do. It's just kinda frustrating to basically have a nerf against you simply because of a mu that doesn't involve Toss. That's just not the way to handle it.
Wow Tempests and Hallucinations will be seriously wtf insane.
Tempests will be somewhat cost effective against Vikings in a head on fight while also having 6 more range AND shoots ground AND a far better counter to EVERYTHING. How is that even remotely fair? It went from being somewhat weak to being ridiculously powerful. And why are they 4 supply when Thors have the same cost but 6 supply? Mech TvP is now even more dead than it ever was. Not only do you have immortal/archon raping Hellbat/Tank, but you now have Tempests that are ridiculously good vs all non-bio units.
Free hallucinations? So now you have to waste a scan/mule every time a toss pokes at your front door or during any small skirmish. Free scouting every game now? And PvP will become 4gate hallucination wars until an obs is out. Horrible change.
This won't stay in the game for long. What should Zerg do about a 15 range tempest somewhere in noman's land behind their main at the 6 or 7 minute mark, shooting at the drones?
They cost 200 gas. Zergs will have spire to that time
No, they will not. Protoss can simply build that thing from one base, with a gateway-cybercore-stargate opening with early two gas, maybe even proxying the stargate. You need less buildings than for a DT rush and less gas, so you will be earlier than DTs. I guess that by proxying, having that thing shoot at the enemy's drones at 7:00 or 7:30 is possible.
Can you stay alive if you rush to Tempest that quickly?
People will get a couple free wins off doing this and flustering an opponent. I doubt you can stay alive to an opponent that suspects it. It would be annoying to deal with though especially as zerg because it seems to force spire?
On October 13 2012 06:01 WickedBit wrote: Wow so now tempest is basically a super viking ? Also spores without evo and purify detecting ? It seems detection is now really cheap and easy to get. May not be a bad thing though.
Remember that in BW, Zerg spawned with detection, because overlords detected with no upgrade at all.
spore colony still needed an evo. and a creep colony to start too.
On October 13 2012 05:50 playa wrote: DT strats are no longer viable against Zerg because they don't know how to properly balance the widow mine? Nice. Throw enough random darts, I'm sure you're bound to eventually hit near the middle. Prepared to wait two years + for this beta to end. The only question is when will the changes tempt me to play it again. At this rate, probably never.
dt's are never really good vs zerg anyway above diamond because they are just so easy to scout.
This won't stay in the game for long. What should Zerg do about a 15 range tempest somewhere in noman's land behind their main at the 6 or 7 minute mark, shooting at the drones?
They cost 200 gas. Zergs will have spire to that time
No, they will not. Protoss can simply build that thing from one base, with a gateway-cybercore-stargate opening with early two gas, maybe even proxying the stargate. You need less buildings than for a DT rush and less gas, so you will be earlier than DTs. I guess that by proxying, having that thing shoot at the enemy's drones at 7:00 or 7:30 is possible.
Can you stay alive if you rush to Tempest that quickly?
Also, don't you need to have vision, so they'd have to be somewhat close, depending on unit vision. I don't know sight ranges as I cannot test it out yet. It'll be interesting to see people try to rush proxy it, because if it's found it's not going to be good for the Protoss. Because of the extra min/gas put into it.
On October 13 2012 05:50 playa wrote: DT strats are no longer viable against Zerg because they don't know how to properly balance the widow mine? Nice. Throw enough random darts, I'm sure you're bound to eventually hit near the middle. Prepared to wait two years + for this beta to end. The only question is when will the changes tempt me to play it again. At this rate, probably never.
dt's are never really good vs zerg anyway above diamond because they are just so easy to scout.
I wouldn't be using them above Diamond if that were remotely true. 70% win versus zerg, 1500 plus masters last season (first full season of playing SC 2). Dt's aren't bad at all, it just comes down to denying the third for long enough so they can't already have spores up. And then, you have to air units to deny overseers, so you can tech up without being in risk of losing to counters and such.
Not sure how I feel about all the detection changes, maybe they'll prove to be good in the end. Still seems some sort of tech lab upgrade or army requirement for widow mines with a damage buff would be better for the unit. Comes out later, has more use the longer the game goes on.
This won't stay in the game for long. What should Zerg do about a 15 range tempest somewhere in noman's land behind their main at the 6 or 7 minute mark, shooting at the drones?
They cost 200 gas. Zergs will have spire to that time
No, they will not. Protoss can simply build that thing from one base, with a gateway-cybercore-stargate opening with early two gas, maybe even proxying the stargate. You need less buildings than for a DT rush and less gas, so you will be earlier than DTs. I guess that by proxying, having that thing shoot at the enemy's drones at 7:00 or 7:30 is possible.
Can you stay alive if you rush to Tempest that quickly?
You can always get a forge and completely wall off at your ramp, if the opening is not stable otherwise; but I think that this is not needed, it should be less risky than a one-base DT opening against one-base Zerg pressure, since it consumes less ressources.
On October 13 2012 05:39 Limniscate wrote: Protoss Mothership Core When Purify is cast on a player’s Nexus, it now also grants detection to 13 range. Energize has been removed.
What exactly are you going to detect at 13 range? Swarm hosts are well outside that range.
Widow mines, they were forcing robo or cannons in base, now u can use MSC.
On October 13 2012 05:50 playa wrote: DT strats are no longer viable against Zerg because they don't know how to properly balance the widow mine? Nice. Throw enough random darts, I'm sure you're bound to eventually hit near the middle. Prepared to wait two years + for this beta to end. The only question is when will the changes tempt me to play it again. At this rate, probably never.
dt's are never really good vs zerg anyway above diamond because they are just so easy to scout.
It's your own opinion. I don't care what league you are, but i still see DTs being a bitch to deal with particularly in mid-late game. Works wonder while doing multi-pronged attacks obviously.
On October 13 2012 06:19 Blazinghand wrote: If spore crawlers no longer need an evo chamber I want to be able to build turrets without an engineering bay lol
To be fair tho, most games i see people go for dt/cloak banshee the zerg already has a evo chamber running. Glad they are making tempest non fleet becon tho
On topic I really don't understand the need for a lot of these changes, it just seems kinda of like a...well we need to change something it's Friday...patch.
This won't stay in the game for long. What should Zerg do about a 15 range tempest somewhere in noman's land behind their main at the 6 or 7 minute mark, shooting at the drones?
They cost 200 gas. Zergs will have spire to that time
No, they will not. Protoss can simply build that thing from one base, with a gateway-cybercore-stargate opening with early two gas, maybe even proxying the stargate. You need less buildings than for a DT rush and less gas, so you will be earlier than DTs. I guess that by proxying, having that thing shoot at the enemy's drones at 7:00 or 7:30 is possible.
Can you stay alive if you rush to Tempest that quickly?
Also, don't you need to have vision, so they'd have to be somewhat close, depending on unit vision. I don't know sight ranges as I cannot test it out yet. It'll be interesting to see people try to rush proxy it, because if it's found it's not going to be good for the Protoss. Because of the extra min/gas put into it.
Perhaps you can build an oracle after the tempest and use that vision spell? Or you can get a phoenix after it and dance behind the minerals, avoiding queen fire.
Removing the means of detection gives Protoss players less incentive to go Stargate, and now we're back to observers for our only means of mobile detection.
Moving out in the early game vs T is not going to be possible until we have the Robo up, so we are pretty much back to where we were.
Seems they are having to change so much just to balance the widow mine. Spores don't require Evo, this has just made cloaked banshee and DT play so much weaker, all because of the widow mine.
Given the widow mines current form, I don't think it would be wrong to bring back the Armory requirement, they have pretty much replaced the Helion for the early damage unit.
On October 13 2012 06:21 RaiZ wrote: So basically, there's a thumb up for every buff and a thumb down for every nerf. Talk about not being biased here...
People are thumbing down the Spore change hard. I would also argue that the Oracle change is not strictly a nerf.
Interesting changes. More entomb buffs, but no more detection on oracle. But there is a detection panic response with purify in base now, so that makes up for it, as oracle detection was never going to be reliable enough to forgo obs before move out against cloak anyway. Energize was fun on things like sentries too, but I can understand their explanation for taking it out. Sentry change is nice, hallucination has always been underused, even in bw, because of the investment vs versatility issue. Tempest changes are really good, especially supply change, and I like the upgrade for massive too being better than before, revelation on buildings+earlier tempests might be fun.
Viper change I'm neutral about, though better acceleration probably helps out mobility since they are frail. Spore crawler change I don't like, and the argument against it(widow mine rush) seems a little iffy, figured slight tweaks to the mine like burrow time would be enough.
Widow mine change is good, burrow time was a little to fast with their hp, and they are meant to lean more towards positioning ahead of time than in combat. Hellbat is an interesting name that actually fits really well, hell stands in well for fire and it's basically a power armor infantry with flamethrowers when transformed, just like the firebat is.
On October 13 2012 06:19 Blazinghand wrote: If spore crawlers no longer need an evo chamber I want to be able to build turrets without an engineering bay lol
You have scans, Zerg doesn't. Honestly, it'll be interesting to see if this spore crawler change sticks. It's possible they'll look at overall impacts to the game and decide that too-easy detection isn't a good move just to make the current widow mine work.
People are thumbing down the Spore change hard.
T and P are. I haven't seen any Zerg experts expressing the opinion so far that it'll break the game, and usually that's the sign of something that's significantly out of whack. Not to say it won't happen, just haven't seen it yet.
Energize had potential, if the Oracle was the problem - get rid of the 1 dimensional entombed ability that adds little to nothing to the game. Energize wasn't being used a lot outside of the Oracle but that doesn't mean it's useless - being used for sentry or HT energy later on hasn't been explored.
I actually think there is too much detection. You are really limiting some strategies by having this much detection. Dt’s, banshees, blink stalker in the natural, etc. You are also limiting some of Protoss’s air play against zerg. The tempest change, I’m not sure about. I don’t know that it will make it any more useful. The hellbat mechanical bio just seems a little silly to me from a logical standpoint. Mechanical bio? This thing transforms from a medal vehicle into a bio giant?
I’m not sure why they removed energize. I think it’s a good spell that people are still trying to figure out.
Tempest should start with lower range and get range 15 with the fleet beacon upgrade. Overall positive changes except free hallucination. Zerg will have to implement spores in their standard PvZ bo's I guess, otherwise too much firepower is wasted on hallus with early strong/allin protoss pushes.
like the changes. didnt like the widow mine only getting a supersmall nerf but after thinking about it more it makes sense to nerf it very slowly from its OP stage until it is alright. although removing cloak and antiair should be the start of nerfing them.
like the changes. didnt like the widow mine only getting a supersmall nerf but after thinking about it more it makes sense to nerf it very slowly from its OP stage until it is alright. although removing cloak and antiair should be the start of nerfing them.
rest of patch is nice.
It doesn't need nerfing, just buff detection for the other races, which they have done.
I don't get the reasoning behind half the changes in patch. Are the detection changes all because of widow mines? Wasn't revelation suppose to help combat cloaked ghosts with observer sniping? Why is tempest overlapping so much with voidray? Hopefully that just a crazy-idea testing phase but honestly blizzard should have passed it by now.
On October 13 2012 05:39 Limniscate wrote: Tempest This unit’s native bonus damage to massive units has been removed. This unit no longer requires a Fleet Beacon. We have added a new weapon upgrade called Quantic Reactor at the Fleet Beacon which will grant Tempest attacks +35 damage to massive units. Quantic Reactor costs 200/200. The cost of this unit has been changed from 300/300 to 300/200. The supply cost for this unit has changed from 6 to 4. The scale of this unit has been lowered from 1 to 0.9.
This won't stay in the game for long. What should Zerg do about a 15 range tempest somewhere in noman's land behind their main at the 6 or 7 minute mark, shooting at the drones?
That's more to do with map design imo. If you have too much air space, like condemmed ridge, this stuff will happen. Antiga shipyard would be much more difficult, but there is still one gap above (assuming you spawn bottom left) the main that can be abused. We'll have to see what happens. Personally, I think a good way to fix it (because I like every change of the tempest) is to have an upgrade for the range increase at the fleet beacon, hence delaying the super long range harass you could see early.
MSC had a good tension going to it on par with orbital commands
energize = mule: primary economic boosting ability mass recall = scan: situational but highly useful ability purify = supply drop: whoa i messed up badly and need an emergency fix
What exactly are you going to detect at 13 range? Swarm hosts are well outside that range.
I don't think they're intending for it to detect swarm hosts, and it would honestly be better to ask this question in reverse. Which standard harass units that are cloaked or burrowed are not affected by this?
They've GOT to be trolling, between the fucking hellbat and tempests not being at fleet beacon tech...i challenge you Zergs, hold your third vs a 15 range void ray. I fucking challenge you.
Also, i'm going to quote myself from the last balance update:
I like how they have no fucking idea of what to do with the Oracle.
First post (wooho!) thought I'd chime in. Background on me, Zerg player, high Plat / low Diamond.
First off:
On October 13 2012 06:42 p1cKLes wrote: I actually think there is too much detection.
I'm inclined to agree, although I think that all of these new HotS units and detection changes are making detection a different animal rather than necessarily making too much detection.
In BW for example, as was pointed out previously somewhere (I think maybe on Bnet forums) Zerg had detection from the get go. Detection just seems kind've random now. Different races can acquire it at vastly different tech levels and timings. For example, now Zerg can build a spore crawler very early, the motivation being solely anti-cloak and not anti-air in the least. (I suppose this was relatively common before the no-evo chamber patch, but it's pretty obvious that this is a direct answer to widow mine rushes.)
Toss can detect near a nexus, but this seems to have limited use. Otherwise Obs is the only choice, and I agree with several statements regarding the forcing of Robo tech tree early on in case of cloaked unit use. This seems to force Toss play to be based on Robo/ground, especially earlier, which is kind've a bummer for variety in play styles.
Terran is basically unchanged in this regard, but it's ability to use cloaked units against other matchups changes quite a bit. Banshee harass, which is very commonly used against zergs may become weaker with the change to spores, although I suppose most zergs should have evo and ability to get spores by the time cloak banshees hit.
The Tempest seems like it may be imba versus Zerg if rushed, but I guess we'll see. I wonder if these rushes become common if Zerg will be forced to go early Spire relative to the current Spire timings in the current metagame. I feel like that might make Zerg a bit more one dimensional, kind've like how the removal of detection from the Oracle confines Toss to going Robo unless they want to waste cash on cannons or roll the dice and hope for no cloak/burrow harass. (Analogously, Zerg could opt for later Spire vs Toss but might get burned hard if Toss goes Tempest rush.)
I don't know what to think about this patch other than it seems like a lot of random changes to balance some units that are honestly strange to begin with. As Teoita just mentioned, it does really seem like they don't know what to do with a lot of these new units, and what roles they are really meant to serve.
My final gripe about this patch is more with the philosophy currently being employed regarding balance. Namely, "let us balance new units, and then we'll put bandaids on the WoL units." I think this is flawed thinking, because it limits the ability to really iron out problems with WoL metagame etc that will carry over into HotS. I don't think that fixing undesirable metagame issues solely by just introducing new units is the way to go. It seems like an iterative method with making small changes to old and new units in conjunction would yield the most balanced and enjoyable final product. On the other hand, they have a ton of work to do, and although I can't fully appreciate it, I can imagine that balancing a game and optimizing over so many variables would be incredibly difficult, so I suppose I understand why they'd opt to try and balance new units first.
Just my $.02. If I've made any silly statements, feel free to point them out!
15 range out of the box generalist flyer won't bold well, but whatever, Protoss gets a Warhound for the week, at least it will see use and we can see what dynamics come from that. I'm glad they caved and are starting to make Tempest the mid-tier it's supposed to be.
On October 13 2012 06:42 p1cKLes wrote: I actually think there is too much detection. You are really limiting some strategies by having this much detection. Dt’s, banshees, blink stalker in the natural, etc. You are also limiting some of Protoss’s air play against zerg.
Ya I agree. They should reduce the cost of banshee cloak now and combine the HT and DT shrine now imo.
I'm really hapy about the Tempest change though. That unit was waaaaay too expensive and on top of that requiring a fleet beacon just made it a laughable unit. I've liked the concept for it so hopefully we'll see some cool use out of it now!
I'm hoping they don't keep these changes to detection. Cloaked units seem incredibly non-threatening if spores are so easy to access and nexi can have detection. It makes the DT path virtually worthless until maybe the extreme lategame, and cloaked banshees fairly useless as well except for TvT. I understand they need to do something to try and fix mine rushes, but making changes that effect every single unit that uses cloak seems like a little much.
Am I correct in thinking that all forms of early Cloak harass is now useless? Zerg can now insta-spore crawler and Protoss can just Purify. If this is to deal with Widow Mine harass they should focus on the Widow Mine, not blatantly give out detection. Going for early Banshees or DTs is still risky (very little army) and delays an expansion, which is compensated for in WoL by forcing detection and defensive play from the opponent. Now all of the pressure Cloaked harass provides is just gone.
On October 13 2012 07:17 Swords wrote: I'm hoping they don't keep these changes to detection. Cloaked units seem incredibly non-threatening if spores are so easy to access and nexi can have detection. It makes the DT path virtually worthless until maybe the extreme lategame, and cloaked banshees fairly useless as well except for TvT. I understand they need to do something to try and fix mine rushes, but making changes that effect every single unit that uses cloak seems like a little much.
I totally agree. Making global changes like this to fix broken use of a new unit (which is already unbalanced because it just hasn't had time to become balanced yet) seems like a poor way to try and balance a game. The larger than change that is made, the more small changes need to be added later to balance it out.
I'm kind've wondering if there is a fundamental issue with the widow mine, as it seems to be the source of a lot of controversy, patching, and balance issues that seem to be upsetting game dynamics. (Although I suppose that's another topic entirely.)
I watched a couple of players playing around with blinding cloud and I noticed units underneath automatically tried to get within range one. unfortunately, this seems to make units get pushed out of the blinding cloud, almost as if it requires almost no micro to get out of blinding cloud. I feel that blizz needs to take this out and reduce radius back to 1.5.
Can someone please explain to me how the Tempest is even remotely useful? I'm just not seeing it. And the last thing Protoss needs is yet another 200/200 upgrade, especially on a unit you aren't going to make very often, and won't make more than a few per game.
Also, lol @ cloaked units being basically useless now.
On October 13 2012 07:17 Swords wrote: I'm hoping they don't keep these changes to detection. Cloaked units seem incredibly non-threatening if spores are so easy to access and nexi can have detection. It makes the DT path virtually worthless until maybe the extreme lategame, and cloaked banshees fairly useless as well except for TvT. I understand they need to do something to try and fix mine rushes, but making changes that effect every single unit that uses cloak seems like a little much.
I totally agree. Making global changes like this to fix broken use of a new unit (which is already unbalanced because it just hasn't had time to become balanced yet) seems like a poor way to try and balance a game. The larger than change that is made, the more small changes need to be added later to balance it out.
I'm kind've wondering if there is a fundamental issue with the widow mine, as it seems to be the source of a lot of controversy, patching, and balance issues that seem to be upsetting game dynamics. (Although I suppose that's another topic entirely.)
The game dynamics were messed up to begin with. I hope they keep doing crazy things so we can at least end up with a different, fresh, messed up dynamic.
The purify change won't stop cloaked banshee openings. The Toss might have enough energy to temporarily purify one base at the most. However, the change to spores is probably a major nerf to banshee openings in TvZ.
On October 13 2012 07:23 sns3rsam wrote: I watched a couple of players playing around with blinding cloud and I noticed units underneath automatically tried to get within range one. unfortunately, this seems to make units get pushed out of the blinding cloud, almost as if it requires almost no micro to get out of blinding cloud. I feel that blizz needs to take this out and reduce radius back to 1.5.
I've noticed this too, though against Banelings or even Infestor/BL/Corruptor this is exactly what the Zerg wants. Also you can negate this a bit with Fungal. I don't know, it was pretty underwhelming before against almost everything, I think it's a good change to try.
-Purify Grants detection Good change, improves non-robo builds but allows cloak as defense against them (just not as much offense).
-Energize gone eh, I guess whatever, I thought Energize was nice to put some choices on how to use your energy on MSC and not just use it for mass recall all the time.
- Oracle Entomb buff Entomb still seemed weak, so buffing it is good. I still think we will get to the point where it will be buffed enough where it cant be buffed anymore without being broken, and yet its still just not worth the cost.
-Oracle Lost detection and other changes Losing detection on oracle was a very bad idea. Sure keep the purify detection, but dont take away the oracle detection too! Both is better. The increased duration and cost tends to say that it is meant to be used with the tempests, althogh because of the speed of the tempest, I cant see this working out except in some kind of "siege" of a base, but that doesnt seem like a great use of the oracle when hallucinations can do the detection just as easily.
-Tempest Buff I like this change, time will tell if its too much of a buff (and some midleground can be found). But I like the way this is going with an upgrade for the +massive dmg (which most of the time was never used anyway currently). The only problem I see is the tempest and the voidray are in some conflict sharing roles.
-no Hallucination research Good I guess, Improves lower level play, doesnt hurt higher level play. Will be intresting seeing how this interacts with the tempest and using the Hallucination to scout for their 15 range....
-Viper changes Sounds good, 1.5 was a little too small, and they are fairly easy to kill right now we will see how the acc changes that.
-Spore Crawler not requre evo Not sure I agree with this change, I think just increase the activation time on the mines from 2 to like 4-5 (rather then 3) would have been better then changing this.
-Widow Mine activation time change I like this, widow mines were brokenly powerful in offense and drops, this should make that harder while still keeping their role. I would have like to have seen them take away the "hits air" or the "hits invis" or the splash damage or reduce the range. Keeping all of those makes the mines a bit too "well rounded" and presents very few ways to effectivly clear a mine field even if you know its there.
On October 13 2012 07:46 Rube_Juice wrote: Hallucination is free? what the shit? They go from Protoss can't scout to Protoss gets free scouts the entire game. Can't even believe this.
Yep, everyone gets more information in HotS. The terran version burrows, grants vision and kills the first thing it sees.
I really don't like them removing detection from the oracle. If you open Stargate v Zerg, I feel like you will just die to any kind of Swarm Host play. Now it feels like Toss is forced to go down the Robo path again regardless.
On October 13 2012 06:08 aZealot wrote: No energize? I am a sad Zealot.
Man, this Beta is going to be long with this, as far as I can see, scattergun approach to HotS. I already find these frequent updates exhausting. Although, from another point of view, it's also a regular dose for the many SC2 'junkies' on TL. Too long between balance patches, and there will be withdrawal symptoms for many on TL. LOL.
WoL beta updates were just as frequent and just as drastic. I like Blizz's approach and I think it creates interesting data and perspective.
On October 13 2012 05:55 AndAgain wrote: Protoss does have issues with scouting in WoL, but I think no research hellu is a little excessive. It's almost giving perfect information for the whole game.
I think that is true, which would mean that the cost of each cast would need to increase to make players decide on force fields or hallucination.
On October 13 2012 05:50 playa wrote: DT strats are no longer viable against Zerg because they don't know how to properly balance the widow mine? Nice. Throw enough random darts, I'm sure you're bound to eventually hit near the middle. Prepared to wait two years + for this beta to end. The only question is when will the changes tempt me to play it again. At this rate, probably never.
Making the spore crawler not require a evo chamber isn't going to really effect the effectiveness of a Dark templars in PvZ, Are you just 1 base DT rushing Zergs, and crossing your fingers hoping you win? DT's are not very effective vs Zerg ever in my mind, this change isn't going to change much vs P I don't think
The purify ability giving protoss detection of 13 range will make DT rushes in PvP less viable.
Removing Energize from MsC also seems to be make Oracle pretty useless as well. Normally, after I built the Oracle I could energize it for 2 entombs to do some early eco damage. Now you have to wait to get enough energy for 1 and who will want to use Revelation now that we have free Hallucinate?
On October 13 2012 05:52 kcdc wrote: Tempest no longer requires fleet beacon and costs 100 less gas. Tempest harass just went from completely useless to.....I'm not sure what. How does Zerg prevent tempest harass at 9 minutes? Do they just stop mining until they get a spire?
9 minutes? pylon/gate/gas/pylon/core/gas 1 base stargate, he's gonna be fucked from 6.
I'm going to assume these changes are just for trying over-the-top buffs, because otherwise this patch is pretty bad overall. Energize was going to be dumb anyway though, with sentry drops getting extra energy to block zerg ramps and HTs having energy after getting emp'd.
hmm, so still no changes to Terran in HotS? Shame. I am still not interested in paying ~40 euro for new maps and some strangely useless Z and P units (useless in the meaning that WoL is quite balanced, new unites for Z and P are making the game completely f*cked up, imo). And this Widow Mine? lol
MS: Very bad to yank energize. First we lose nexus teleport, then we in essence lose mass recall (current version is so bad) and now we lose energize. MS has been transformed from a fun creative unit, to a poor-man's voidray + photon cannon combination unit.
Oracle: Ditto. We lose cloak, entomb has yet to be cost effective (considering opportunity cost), siphon is too slow and now we lose detection? Back to robo builds Another fun/creative unit down the tubes. MS/Nexus detection is NOT the same as mobile detection. You HAVE to have mobile detection vs cloaked units, else the cloaked attackers will just attack your parameter/expansions.
Tempest Cost/tech reduction: Good change...could be fun to use now. Using and stopping spotters will be key. If tempest turns out to be OP (doubtful), I hope they nerf the vision to make it more dependent on spotters.
Spore Buff: I'm not a fan of one dimensional air/cloak build order wins so I like this. Problem is that the evo chamber really set zerg back economically vs dts/voids/phoenix. Take 2.5 drones mining...then take the drones that would have been built from those two drones...etc...and it compounds significantly. This could be a huge buff for zerg and roach spam/deathball timing pushes (which Blizzard is still in denial that there is a problem with). To counter this, I would love to see the build time of hatcheries off creep take longer to build (to encourage more dynamic zerg play with macro hatches and gas and less drone cheese which zerg love to do vs air builds).
Hallucination: Love this as it opens up tons of creative options. Was disappointed that FF wasn't addressed. I'm probably one of the few people on the planet that actually hoped Blizzard would make this mechanic easier to use. Don't let the game think for you yes, but why not have a snap to grid option to prevent cracks/overlap? The pro's mess up their FF's all the time, so I don't buy this lower level argument. You miss a ff by one space and you lose the game vs 4gate/ling-roach/mm rushes...WAY too tedious and unfun. Would love to see zerg get free burrow to compensate for hallucination. Can you imagine burrowed zerglings blocking expansions and drones burrowing rightaway to avoid hellions? Lot of creative potential for zerg.
Widow Mine Activation Time: Good change in the right direction, but the widow mine is still too well rounded. It is fast, can hit air/ground, doesn't have bad range, great damage, DPS... Good units need weakness. My vote is that the widow mine get a speed nerf (AOE units shouldn't be speed) which would ensure this is more of a positional unit over a cheesy deathball unit. With so many cloaked units in the game (banshee/ghost/dts/MS/observer/infestor/roach/widow mine), I would love to see the return of a manual attack area command (Warcraft 2 fans who used juggernauts know what I'm talking about). Seems stupid that you can't guess where a unit is and attack that ground where you think it is hiding. Maybe get rid of the distotion to compensate.
Ah cool, glad to see they're doing 1 change at a time with the widow mine, couple that with earlier detection and I might not just auto win games anymore :D
Pretty sure the dev team are extremely jealous of the firebat, but forgot the Blizzard actually has copyright for that unit and they could totally just put it in.
Removing energize,dont help with Oracles,but at least their Entomb has been improved.The Detection on the Nexus with the MS is just crazy.No more Banshee openings and no more DTs.You dont even need an Observer,so you may skip Robo and go for Stargate,but they must improve Voids and Phoenix to be able to substitute gate units.
The Tempest is now the Counter of Collosi.No more Collosi Wars in PvP,so I am glad to see this change and maybe P began to Open with 1gate StarGate,inlcuding Oracle to harras and make enemy stay at home,while getting their Tempest Army and ofcourse can SCOUT FREE with only Sentry Enrgy.This new Tempest still mantain Mech in TvP dead.
Zerg changes are OK.The Viper need a Buff,because of his Tech and Cost.The Spore is because of mines.Its a change really needed because T got Scan so soon and P only Need MS,but still seems to be a "Free Detection".150 for CC and 300 you lose if you scan.MS cost+energy for P and 75 mins for Zerg!!!If you compared it to Overlords born with detection its a good change hehe,but not if you compared with WoL.Its just the Death of the Banshee.Another Terran unit to the trash now.No more Hellion+Banshee openings.Banshee will go togehter with Ghost and Mech to sleep,awaiting LotV hehe
WidowLauncher Change trully needed.Everyone expected to be nerfed more,but its ok.They are useless while recharging and cant attack spores hehe.
Hellbat... TErrible,TERRIBLE NAME.Blizzard is supposed to not reintroduce old units,but this mech Firebat is just crazy
Every week my jaw drops at the sheer magnitude of the changes here. I absolutely can't wait until we know what the game is going to be like at release.
Pretty random with the Battle Hellion, but makes a fuckload of sense considering they do say "Hellbat coming in" on spawn. Probably going to be more confusing for some people now.
On October 13 2012 07:23 sns3rsam wrote: I watched a couple of players playing around with blinding cloud and I noticed units underneath automatically tried to get within range one. unfortunately, this seems to make units get pushed out of the blinding cloud, almost as if it requires almost no micro to get out of blinding cloud. I feel that blizz needs to take this out and reduce radius back to 1.5.
I've noticed this too, though against Banelings or even Infestor/BL/Corruptor this is exactly what the Zerg wants. Also you can negate this a bit with Fungal. I don't know, it was pretty underwhelming before against almost everything, I think it's a good change to try.
hmmm i agree that it works really well with banelings and infestor/BL. perhaps too well hahaha i can see blinding cloud then fungal and then in comes the baneling pain train lol. we shall have to see... i feel that reducing the radius could be the right answer though in return for getting rid of auto-movement under cloud as you need more clouds to blanket the army and that gives the army time to retreat from cloud. i am excited what this could bring to e-sports! intense micro moments where bioball scrambling to get away from banelings and blinding clouds :D
On October 13 2012 08:08 Fungal Growth wrote: Widow Mine Activation Time: Good change in the right direction, but the widow mine is still too well rounded. It is fast, can hit air/ground, doesn't have bad range, great damage, DPS... Good units need weakness. My vote is that the widow mine get a speed nerf (AOE units shouldn't be speed) which would ensure this is more of a positional unit over a cheesy deathball unit. With so many cloaked units in the game (banshee/ghost/dts/MS/observer/infestor/roach/widow mine), I would love to see the return of a manual attack area command (Warcraft 2 fans who used juggernauts know what I'm talking about). Seems stupid that you can't guess where a unit is and attack that ground where you think it is hiding. Maybe get rid of the distotion to compensate.
The Hallucination buff has great balance implications. I don't see it sticking around to be honest. We're talking about the possibility of constant scouting information income at the cost of energy on a unit that you will pretty much always have in any matchup (maybe not as much in PvP).
Terran has scans which costs them 270 minerals. Zerg has overlord positioning and maybe zergling run-bys. Protoss will have scouting information at the cost of a forcefield.
I'd be OK with this change if you could no longer hallucinate phoenix. Other than that, if the issue is allowing more scouting, keep the upgrade and reduce cost or duration.
On October 13 2012 06:24 Horizon.Infinite wrote: Bad patch in my opinion.
Removing the means of detection gives Protoss players less incentive to go Stargate, and now we're back to observers for our only means of mobile detection.
Moving out in the early game vs T is not going to be possible until we have the Robo up, so we are pretty much back to where we were.
Seems they are having to change so much just to balance the widow mine. Spores don't require Evo, this has just made cloaked banshee and DT play so much weaker, all because of the widow mine.
Given the widow mines current form, I don't think it would be wrong to bring back the Armory requirement, they have pretty much replaced the Helion for the early damage unit.
Bad patch, very disappointed.
Why no go for SG in PvT?Entomb force T to stay at home and kill the Fields and maybe put some turrets.Free Hallucination allow you to scout without observer and no supply cost.The only thing to detect in T army is the banshee,but with 13 range cast on Nexus you got your base safe.And when you go for a early pressure you can Hallu lot of units forcing T to make bunkers,turrets and spend Scans to detect your real units.
Mines arent so quick as hellions and do not do so much damage to workers.Just go and check Day9 8/10 and will see.
wow this spore crawler change is garbage. as is the mothership ability to grant to detection. What just happened to the viability of DT's, Banshees. Come on blizzard.
Your making this game have hard counters to EVERYTHING.
trying to slowly replace the voidray now since the carrier works better lol, i will be sad if they do. Voidray rocks just needs even more micro then a carrier. Not sure about these changes, I am worried because I thought it was a trollpost, so i even checked the link. Well looks like it will be a wasted month till they are back to square one.
Wow, free spore crawlers for everyone! What a ridiculous change, how is this fair to terran and protoss who need a forge/ebay for static detection..??? Big nerf to DT rush or Banshee harass also...
Removing detection on the oracle seems really strange as well, the detection was one of the reasons the thing made it viable to go starport in HotS...?
I may not be in the beta, but I have a feeling that Zergs are going to be forced to automatically go spire the second they see protoss even making stargate for the simple fear that a tempest will be one shotting their drones in a dead space that Queens and Hydras can't reach.
In my opinion, Blizzard messed up everything by listenning too much the players who are complaining.
There was a debate in order to make FFs easier to use, but seriously, why are you whining on that on HotS and not on WoL? why complaining on that right now whereas there is much more important to do?
They deleted the Warhound, first mistake, sure it was op, but it just needed some nerf in DPS or speed and an increase in the cost. But no, IT'S OP KILL IT WITH FIRE!
In order to compense, they buffed Widow Mines: second mistake, now they're buffing the others race in order to counter the op unit they just created...What the serious fuck.
Okay the spore with no evo-chamber, make it easier for zergs to deal with mines, but it also almost destroys the banshee or Stargate opening.
It looks like they forget all their objectives. Blizzard wanted to make Mech play valuable against protoss -->failed Blizzard wanted to make the late tvp easier for terran --> failed Blizzard wanted to make an air counter to mass mutas in zvp --> failed Blizzard wanted to make an harass unit for protoss --> failed
And yes I'm speaking in the name of the terran because it looks like everyone is zerg or protoss around here...
Good changes overall to Protoss. Its a step in the right direction for sure. I like how you can just make the tempest and hallucination now and not have to spend any more resources, but what prompted the spore crawler change? DT openings vs Zerg are now even more uselss than they once we're.
I don't like the Evo change simply because it's an awkward way to balance WMine usage against Zerg, but people are seriously overestimating the effect it'll have against DT and Banshee builds. By the time these builds hit every competent Zerg will have an Evo ready, if only just for upgrades.
On October 13 2012 08:56 Foudzing wrote: In my opinion, Blizzard messed up everything by listenning too much the players who are complaining.
There was a debate in order to make FFs easier to use, but seriously, why are you whining on that on HotS and not on WoL? why complaining on that right now whereas there is much more important to do?
They deleted the Warhound, first mistake, sure it was op, but it just needed some nerf in DPS or speed and an increase in the cost. But no, IT'S OP KILL IT WITH FIRE!
In order to compense, they buffed Widow Mines: second mistake, now they're buffing the others race in order to counter the op unit they just created...What the serious fuck.
Okay the spore with no evo-chamber, make it easier for zergs to deal with mines, but it also almost destroys the banshee or Stargate opening.
It looks like they forget all their objectives. Blizzard wanted to make Mech play valuable against protoss -->failed Blizzard wanted to make the late tvp easier for terran --> failed Blizzard wanted to make an air counter to mass mutas in zvp --> failed Blizzard wanted to make an harass unit for protoss --> failed
And yes I'm speaking in the name of the terran because it looks like everyone is zerg or protoss around here...
TOTALLY and FULLY AGREE with you man! What are tehy doing? They may forgot which were their goals for HotS.So many changes just mess the balance reached in WoL.All those issues you adress still without solution.I want to play mech in PvT,but no way.TvP still a hell vs Chargelots/Archons....
Wow, sick buff to P scout While i agree that P have the worse scout of the 3 races, free hallu+momma detection seems a lot. I guess i'm not gonna test it with no beta key ¬¬
And the hellion change to bio and the name change is retarded and hilarious.
MSC: Energize was cool and probably underexplored, but it seems it was making harder to balance other spellcasters - the oracle mainly. I also see an issue with energizing your initial sentry to hallucinate and have very early free scouting at no risk. But Blizzard please add another defensive spell to MC. I don't like Purify being detector, that will kill DT and Banshee early harass.
Widow mine: Good nerf in the setup time. But this unit is going to break the cloaking-detecting balance of the game, that is currently good. Instead of redesigning that balance, I would rather make the widow mine temporary loose its cloaking when firing.
Oracle: Please remove Purify detection and bring back Revelation detection. The buff to entomb is nice to encourage stargate play, but I still see an issue in not doing real economical damage long term. What if entomb would damage mineral patches, besides blocking mining? I mean the mineral patch will loose x minerals per second when entombed. Also the void sifon should not cost energy when casted, it should cost energy while damaging, something like the current ghost cloak ability. This way, the void sifon would encourage moving and microing the Oracle.
Sentry: I am not sure how I feel about the hallucination change... it makes scouting so easy, but at a cost of 2 FF that could be essential in defending early rushes... good to test anyway.
Tempest: I am finally lost about this unit's role. These changes make it more viable mid-game, but a rework of the void-ray (currently useless after so many nerfs) would just be enough.
Viper: Great change. Zerg is soooooo beautiful in HOTS...
They deleted the Warhound, first mistake, sure it was op, but it just needed some nerf in DPS or speed and an increase in the cost. But no, IT'S OP KILL IT WITH FIRE!
You need to calm down and analyze stuff better. Warhound problem was beyond their OP status. I was a freaking 1a uber flat unit. Worst units design wise from SC2 WoL are Roaches and Marauders. The warhound was the new king of the hill.
I imagine Dustin Browder in his Battlecruiser looking down at the battle.net, seein the reactions, saying to himself )(or the white furry cat he is stroking): "At least we got that Hellbat issue out of the way. Phew, the most controversial name change ever in the Blizzard universe slipped by without anything since every T was whining about how incredibly good the other races became. Now we can finally roll back the buffs to Z and P in the next patches after everybody understands how stupidly good they were."
At least I hope that's what this patch is about. Couldn't imagine anything else that makes more sense.
Coming from a Zerg player, if you don't need an evo to make spores, it basically makes banshees completely useless.
I really liked the mothership's energize ability. Gave it a lot of options and made it a fun unit that could do lots of stuff. Now it's just kinda ugh.
Hallucination seems kinda iffy. Think it was fine where it was.
I don't really see spores being buildable without an evo to be really that game changing. It does seem really stupid how many changes have to be made due to a seemingly OP new unit from beta.
So without fleet beacon, if protoss just play early tempest rush how can zerg defend it? its range seems to be enough to remove all ground units without taking damage. Zerg needs mutas or corruptors to hit it, but i think tempest can arrive at zerg base before lair.
a bit sad about energise since it seems like it could have had plenty of interesting applications compared with void syphon which they must have grabbed from the ideas bin because they couldn't think of anything interesting
some changes are okay, I guess (widow mine, viper, tempest), but c'mon, hallucination and spore crawler?!
Now why should a toss ever waste his time on a mofo-core since he can go back to 4-gate with high ground vision (blink in mah base, baby)? Also spore crawler w/o evo chamber is just stupid IMO
Blizz is fucking up with this, more and more sadly... Already thinking about transitioning over to BW or staying on WoL as I'm really dissapointed in what direction this is going (and although it just might be beta)...
No MS Core energize? But that was my favorite ability in HoTS...
Every time I see the patch notes, I still feel like a lot of things are missing. Until then I really won't focus on the beta (even if that's what I should be doing).
I can understand why they got rid of the Evo Chamber requirement for the spore crawler due to the widowmine... But I think the widowmine should have been tweaked and not the evo chamber requirement... Might as well give all overlords detection again like in BW...
On October 13 2012 05:55 AndAgain wrote: Protoss does have issues with scouting in WoL, but I think no research hellu is a little excessive. It's almost giving perfect information for the whole game.
Observers are better than what terran and zerg has if you ask me...
On October 13 2012 06:53 eviltomahawk wrote: Battle Hellion
Bat Hellion
Bat Hell
Hellbat
...
Let me try...
Firebat
F-Bat
F-Bnet
F-Blizz
...
I'm just kidding, I love SC2 and Blizzard, but HOTS is going in a really odd direction. I think these detection changes are way too much. Cloak Banshee harass will be non-existent. DT's are only a very late game harass unit now.
The thing is, Blizzard is taking away strategies, and that isn't good. the Widow Mine is ruining the game. I preferred the Warhound, it was OP, but at least Blizzard didn't try to balance the rest of the game around it, they just nerfed it.
But the biggest thing for me are the constant buffs to Entomb. It's going to make bronze and silver protoss completely annihilate their opponents with a single spell from an early unit. What are they thinking? These kind of things need to work across ALL levels and right now this one will just mean a ridiculously skewed lower league population! I don't see bronze and silver players reacting correctly and quickly enough to overcome the MASSIVE MASSIVE MASSIVE advantage the oracle user gets through Entomb.
It's like Blizzard forgot that about half their customers are in bronze and silver. And for the record, i'm plat. >_>
Also, if spores no longer need evo chambers, turrets should no longer need engineering bays either. WTF are they thinking? Maybe cannons should not need forges either, since we're buffing protoss anyway?
And above all that, as a terran player, blinding cloud radius increased? Together with fungals, banelings and later on ultras, say goodbye to EVER seeing ANY bio play in a TvZ. It'll be pure 'mech' from now on. They're actually reducing the matchup's variety even more.
Same with Protoss. They now have 4(!) AOE units, one of which can just sit outside the range of any unit that can counter it that Terran has (unless Tempests don't do ground AOE damage, in which case my apoligies). Together with the Oracle and Sentry buffs, TvP is going to be made nigh impossible, again mostly for the lower leagues. At this rate, the widow mine is absolutely necessary rather than overpowered, what i previously thought. It's insane.
Has Blizzard lost any notion of the concept of 'subtlety'? WoL, with all it's imperfections, at least understands this.
we can make free spore crawlers with NO evo!? wow, I was already working the extra 75 minerals + drone into my builds as is, but now they are just giving it to us? Not sure on this one, but I will take it. I never had a problem with mines as Zerg other than their burrow time, now that it's increased a second, that should really balance the unit out.
Also FUCK yes on buffing viper acceleration, they are so damn fragile as is.
and oracle loses detection but in return, hallucinate is free and purify grants your nexus 13 range of detection. Well, I guess it solves early game PvT so that mines can baited with hallucinate and MsC can grant detection early on.
Good changes I think.
On October 13 2012 10:27 ChromeBallz wrote: No research hallucination is awful. AWFUL.
But the biggest thing for me are the constant buffs to Entomb. It's going to make bronze and silver protoss completely annihilate their opponents with a single spell from an early unit. What are they thinking? These kind of things need to work across ALL levels and right now this one will just mean a ridiculously skewed lower league population! I don't see bronze and silver players reacting correctly and quickly enough to overcome the MASSIVE MASSIVE MASSIVE advantage the oracle user gets through Entomb.
It's like Blizzard forgot that about half their customers are in bronze and silver. And for the record, i'm plat. >_>
Also, if spores no longer need evo chambers, turrets should no longer need engineering bays either. WTF are they thinking? Maybe cannons should not need forges either, since we're buffing protoss anyway?
And above all that, as a terran player, blinding cloud radius increased? Together with fungals, banelings and later on ultras, say goodbye to EVER seeing ANY bio play in a TvZ. It'll be pure 'mech' from now on. They're actually reducing the matchup's variety even more.
Same with Protoss. They now have 4(!) AOE units, one of which can just sit outside the range of any unit that can counter it that Terran has (unless Tempests don't do ground AOE damage, in which case my apoligies). Together with the Oracle and Sentry buffs, TvP is going to be made nigh impossible, again mostly for the lower leagues. At this rate, the widow mine is absolutely necessary rather than overpowered, what i previously thought. It's insane.
Has Blizzard lost any notion of the concept of 'subtlety'? WoL, with all it's imperfections, at least understands this.
bro, calm down, nothing is set in stone, after 6 huge balance updates coming in weekly, you shouldn't be so upset. Also, viper needs a buff, it's currently too expensive for what it does and at 3 supply, by the time most zergs have hive they are already nearly maxed. But the point is that vipers still aren't making as huge of an impact as many thought them to be, but now that they are buffed, maybe we'll actually see more people using them and be able to accurately assess how good they really are. It's like the warhound, make it insanely good so a lot of people use it, then assess the situation from there.
I will be very surprised if the hallucination w/o upgrade makes into the final build... seems more like a "hey protoss, stop complaining about widow mines and use your idle cybernetics core to get this inexpensive upgrade, it's really useful, look!"
Still waiting for the Warhound to make a return appearance...
On October 13 2012 05:50 AndAgain wrote: Pretty big tempest buff.
It's still an incredibly boring unit that counters
a: broodlords b: colossi
That's it.
It'll add incredibly annoying to it's list of accolades because a tempest rush will hit between 7-8:30 probably and then zerg will have to build a spire because a 15 range tempest is popping their drones from behind their base with a MsC spotting and it'll warp the units back for no losses. I'm Toss btw.
Tempest/oracle harass is going to be siiiick. As tempests can easily pick off GtA buildings while the oracle dives in and entombs both main and naturals mineral patch...
I've always wanted to do a ninja army, units mixed in with hallucinated units to take fire. Now they'll be able to come in at a time when one less stalker can make a huge difference.
Blizzard needs to take their heads out their asses and listen to some of the posts. Simply fucking around with the units they are introducing is not good enough and there are balance changes that need to be made everywhere because of them.
I don't like this direction and it's going to make the game worse if they continue down it.
lol entomb is a joke no matter how they balance it. They are giving trash after trash. Forcing their ideas to work. They have no idea, blizzard should just fire the entire team
On October 13 2012 10:21 Torrathyr wrote: Hellbat. They're just putting what we're all thinking, lol.
Spore crawler change has me scratching my head. I play Zerg and even I think that is OP.
its because widow mine rushes against zerg was a joke.
they are very easy to deal with, and with 3 second burrow time, it's even easier.
I was opening hatch first, and getting an evo at around 5-6 min and had 1 spore out in time for detection.
I wonder if you knew that mines don't hurt spines/spores? Plus sacrificing 1 zergling is entirely worth allowing your queen to attack the mine safely.
and it just so happens that Spores recieved a buff a long time ago that allow them to burrow in 4 seconds... go figure. with good creep spread and 1 spore, you can effectively negate mine harassment.
The oracle detection change and the free hallucination are confusing to me.
I was excited when I heard they were going to make a change to the sentry but was extremely disappointed by this change. I thought their goal was to make sentries easier to use. More longevity is also sorely needed. I don't know if you've noticed but sentries disappear in the late midgame. They are also not easy to use for newer players. I see a lot of newer players make sentries and then die because their army is so weak and they can't/don't know how to use forcefields effectively. This change to hallucination doesn't make THE SENTRY easier or better. Besides, the upgrade is such a piddling expense. I'd much rather see a damage or health upgrade so that it can have some longevity and actually pull its weight in the lategame. A neat, albeit strange, upgrade would be to reverse the mineral/gas costs so that it wouldn't kill you to make a few in the lategame. It could be on the TA or the robotics bay.
On a broader level, did Protoss have problems scouting? I don't see too many pro games where the terran is hiding something important. Usually it's the other way around. What is there to see before Hallucination research potentially finishes? The banshees terran won't be making? Again, if free Hallucination is so good, then why doesn't anybody get it?
Finally, why make this hallucination change and then make the oracle a scanner? Is the sole purpose of that spell to spot for tempests? I don't get it.
On October 13 2012 11:33 Jerubaal wrote: Finally, why make this hallucination change and then make the oracle a scanner? Is the sole purpose of that spell to spot for tempests? I don't get it.
Pretty much yeah. Tempests are beast now.
The thing I don't like about this patch, besides the obvious, is that it seems like half of a patch. They're clearly planning to change the Void Ray after this Tempest change, Void Siphon still hasn't been replaced or made useful (yes, a lower Entomb cost technically helps, but Revelation cost is now higher and Energize is gone), and the MsC had better get a new spell in compensation for Energize. I can understand time restraints, but releasing one half at a time is just going to piss off everybody.
Honestly each patch I feel like they're losing the plot more. Hellbat? Are they joking? If they keep with this trend I will be happy to see this fail as an esport. Also detection from Mothership core wtf. 13 range. Say goodbye to cloak banshee. Burrow roach etc. I am honestly lost for their thought process.
On October 13 2012 11:54 mcmartini wrote: Honestly each patch I feel like they're losing the plot more. Hellbat? Are they joking? If they keep with this trend I will be happy to see this fail as an esport. Also detection from Mothership core wtf. 13 range. Say goodbye to cloak banshee. Burrow roach etc. I am honestly lost for their thought process.
On October 13 2012 12:02 Iron_ wrote: I've been out of SC2 gaming for about a month so I can not comment on the validity of the changes, but this looks quite familiar.
Toss: Huge buffs! Zerg: Huge buffs! Terran: Nerf and.... UNIT NAME CHANGE!
LOL good times. Hopefully the Terrans are holding their own.
The didn't remove any Terran unit from the game, be happy with this patch
On October 13 2012 11:24 Cabinet Sanchez wrote: Next patch marines and zealots are detectors. Just how much shit are they willing to fuckup to keep these idiot widow mines relevant?
Pretty much this. Half of this stuff wouldn't be needed if they would nerf the widow mine appropiately.
i just tried oracle , and this new entombe is better , even without 2x enbomb in the begin from mothership core . it makes oracle feel much more efficient in mid-late game . and more efficient over the entire game since you get more entombes . i never used oracle for detection it costed too much anyway .
hallucinations can serve as purpose to be " meat shield " vs terran mines . i alredy did some tests
1 halucinated colossus = 1 hit from widow mine , remain with 20 hp 1 halucinated archon = 1 hit from widow mine , remain with 20 shield 10 hp . all other halucinated units die from 1 shot widow mine including immortal .
i find it strange that zerg can build spores and counter my tech path / stargate and he never invest into a evolution chamber but if that fixez tvz im ok with it .
i find carriers still better then tempests in pvt just becose widow mine and how short observer detection range is . when i mean better means that even if carriers have lower range then tempests , widow mine friendly fire helps a lot .
now 5 stalkers can double shot a burrowing widow mine . since stalker shot cd is 1.44 .
i find this patch good for zerg+toss , bad for terran .
The biggest problem with Blizzard right now is coming up with stuff that has no place amongst the basic army composition of each race. And instead of fixing, they are trying to change the game to fit these additions.
My thoughts on this patch are negative.
The sentry buff allows Protoss to scout any sort of cheese/all in as long as they get that early sentry out. As we all know, the sentry is already a part of the FFE metagame. This just makes SC2 into more of a turtling macrofest than it already is. I still don't know why they still put so much effort into the Oracle when it is a dead end gimmicky unit. Unlike Hellion harass or Mutalisk harass, there is nothing to be improved with this unit. Simply put, no matter how much you practice using Entomb, it's still going to be tap+click+run away. The Tempest really needs to be reworked because what it's trying to be is an air and ground, long range Corsair with a huge cost. It doesn't change the fact that Protoss has poor air superiority. What Protoss needs right now is something like the Scout.
The spore buff completely shuts down cloaked units and allows Zerg to not be punished in the case of a lack of scouting since they can immediately drop down spores as soon as they see any airplay on the map. This buff doesn't benefit good players and is just making bad play more forgiving. Other than that, Zerg's other buffs are reasonable. I do want Blizzard to reconsider Abduct because I feel like Zerg already has an advantage when it comes to positioning due to creep and Infestors denying micro.
We finally come to Terran. I personally think the widow mine is completely retarded. This unit offers no benefit to the overall mech composition. With this unit, mech has become more about getting the most amount of mines instead of careful positioning and synergy between your units. My suggestion is to make the mine a research from the techlab as a replacement for the spidermines. They will be one time use and be 3 per Hellion. Secondly, scrap the Battle Hellion mode. Instead, they should bring back the Firebat.
The Hallucination change being OP is pretty hyperbolic, unless you literally thought every game where Protoss researched it, it was GG. Besides, energy tension means less Forcefields for people to complain about.
Not sure why the displeasure over the hallucination buff. As protoss you have to kind of get warpgate. Yet, initially WP took just 60 seconds to complete. So getting WP and hallucation then was a viable strategy. WP has been since nerfed to 140 seconds then to 160 seconds in a later patch. That's almost three minutes ...an eternity in game time. Put simply the WP research has been so heavily nerfed that it has shoved hallucination and a lot of creative uses for it out of the early game.
As WP has been nerfed it is only fair that hallucination receive a buff. Forget scouts, I would love to see more hallucinated units in battles soaking up damage and fooling the enemy...lot of potential this long neglected little brother of warpgate.
Reason for spores without evo is for easier detection of widow mines early game according to Blizz. But I mean, I feel like you are going to have evo vs terran by the time factory is up anyway.
-harass? Oracle is still bad, boring and dumb... now DTs are useless as well, even less harass, great, we get a new unit nobody wants and we lose a good unit we already had
-Widowmine now they whole game is redesigned around it? leading to.... free spore cralwer for zerg means they don't even have to scout anymore, and void rays are now 100% useless why doesn't Blizz give them an auto-win when they play against protoss?
really disappointed with the designers...currently they look like they understand nothing about the game and are just stubbornly trying to shoehorn in the game some poorly thought out and poorly designed units (all this after three years of waiting for the expo)
sad day for SC2, and now I really wonder if Hots will ever come out and actually be playable
Haha :D Huge changes and people just complain about the Spore crawler. I haver never seen a terran losing to a Dtrush how does it come? Oh wait free scan. I have never seen T or P losing to burrowed units, because they have anyways detection - cannon at the wall or again, the free scan. But i have seen many Z die to cloaked banshee, dt rush etc. and here is the thing.
People are complaining about zerg units and how they dont require skill etc. but they insist on Cloaked banshee, Dt rush A move no skill builds? hypocrites.
Some HotS guides for new player will look like this: Install game, chose protoss, 5 cannons at the wall -> mass tempest. People at lower leagues cant scout (besides terran, A-move like no skill scan) nor spend fast enough their minerals and will die to it like mass voidrays :D
Lets summ up: People are mad that zerg now needs 30 seconds instead of 65 seconds to build earlygame detection/ AA to counter strategys which doesnt really require skill like the infestor. Terrans instant QQ but i dont know why - WHICH cloaked zerg unit causes an instant lose earlygame?
On October 13 2012 05:49 GGzerG wrote: Wow... The people were right... hallucination requiring no upgrade now is kind of crazy...also the spore crawler change umm... I am pretty happy I guess, but the widow mine will still be strong , I guess now you will have an extra second to kill it before it burrows, and it will be easier to stop the widow mine rushes since you won't have to build an evo chamber... interesting.....Also, hellbat? Haha, weird.
If detection is going to be this much more readily available, DTs need a buff or they'll be utterly useless. Maybe get rid of the DT shrine and put them back on the same building as HTs?
Do they want to kill DT play, it was rare enough as it is but it just seems no one is ever going to build a dark shrine anymore. They at least need to lower the build time if they plan on having all this detection now. Going to join the ranks of the WOL carrier in term of usage with these changes.
On October 13 2012 13:58 SirisH wrote: Haha :D Huge changes and people just complain about the Spore crawler. I haver never seen a terran losing to a Dtrush how does it come? Oh wait free scan. I have never seen T or P losing to burrowed units, because they have anyways detection - cannon at the wall or again, the free scan. But i have seen many Z die to cloaked banshee, dt rush etc. and here is the thing.
People are complaining about zerg units and how they dont require skill etc. but they insist on Cloaked banshee, Dt rush A move no skill builds? hypocrites.
Some HotS guides for new player will look like this: Install game, chose protoss, 5 cannons at the wall -> mass tempest. People at lower leagues cant scout (besides terran, A-move like no skill scan) nor spend fast enough their minerals and will die to it like mass voidrays :D
Lets summ up: People are mad that zerg now needs 30 seconds instead of 65 seconds to build earlygame detection/ AA to counter strategys which doesnt really require skill like the infestor. Terrans instant QQ but i dont know why - WHICH cloaked zerg unit causes an instant lose earlygame?
you are talking out your ass with no real points... how is dt or banshee "no skill a move strat. if you lose the game instantly to either of these strats you really need to rethink your play because that is embarrassing. Comparing the infestor which is a main part of your army to dt's or banshee which are harass units is a silly comparison and makes no sense. also scan is not free and most of the time mules are used in order to compete with the zerg larva mechanic and chronoboost so in the early game scans are very valuable. Please dont post unless you have somthing usefull to say because your full of shit
-harass? Oracle is still bad, boring and dumb... now DTs are useless as well, even less harass, great, we get a new unit nobody wants and we lose a good unit we already had
-Widowmine now they whole game is redesigned around it? leading to.... free spore cralwer for zerg means they don't even have to scout anymore, and void rays are now 100% useless why doesn't Blizz give them an auto-win when they play against protoss?
really disappointed with the designers...currently they look like they understand nothing about the game and are just stubbornly trying to shoehorn in the game some poorly thought out and poorly designed units (all this after three years of waiting for the expo)
sad day for SC2, and now I really wonder if Hots will ever come out and actually be playable
peace
This pretty much sums up my thoughts perfectly, with the exception about the Spore Crawler change ... because you still have to build them and there is this terrible "Spore Crawler which he didnt want to build" mantra. Evo chambers are practically a "must build" thing in any game that lasts longer than a few minutes. Personally I think this change might come from smaller Blizzard beta maps where cloaked Banshee/Widow Mine rush has become too successful due to the reduced flying distance. In the end it really doesnt matter IMO.
Blizzard devs HAVE TO make the Widow Mine work, because it is the only new unit Terrans will get and without giving each race one or more new units they wouldnt be able to call it an expansion. The fact that it is terrible and doesnt really fit into the gameplay of either mech or bio doesnt matter.
Personally I would always build Carriers instead of Tempests simply because a unit with such a slow rate of fire will always suck, because you can only really use it to take down big units of which the opponent only has a few. Against small units it is useless.
On October 13 2012 13:58 SirisH wrote: Haha :D Huge changes and people just complain about the Spore crawler. I haver never seen a terran losing to a Dtrush how does it come? Oh wait free scan. I have never seen T or P losing to burrowed units, because they have anyways detection - cannon at the wall or again, the free scan. But i have seen many Z die to cloaked banshee, dt rush etc. and here is the thing.
People are complaining about zerg units and how they dont require skill etc. but they insist on Cloaked banshee, Dt rush A move no skill builds? hypocrites.
Some HotS guides for new player will look like this: Install game, chose protoss, 5 cannons at the wall -> mass tempest. People at lower leagues cant scout (besides terran, A-move like no skill scan) nor spend fast enough their minerals and will die to it like mass voidrays :D
Lets summ up: People are mad that zerg now needs 30 seconds instead of 65 seconds to build earlygame detection/ AA to counter strategys which doesnt really require skill like the infestor. Terrans instant QQ but i dont know why - WHICH cloaked zerg unit causes an instant lose earlygame?
Uninstall the game if you are bad enough to lose to DT rushes and Cloaked Banshee rushes. Unless of course you failed at scouting. Claiming DT rush and Cloaked Banshees require no skill when they are very micro intensive shows how ignorant you are. In the end you are no better than the QQers.
Scans are not free. They cost 150 minerals and 35 seconds of not building any SCVs.
Disappointed with these changes. It feels a lot like Blizzard is trying to force the new units into the game, when these units do not add anything to the WOL metagame. Instead, there is a clash between the new units being too powerful, and causing huge problems for the rest of the game, or gimmicky, with little application to the rest of the game.
Also, many of the new units just don't "feel" like they fit either in the race they are in, or in the Starcraft universe at all.
We will be bringing the beta down shortly to make the following balance changes. Thanks again for all the great help you have contributed in testing Swarm; we look forward to receiving more of your input on the changes listed below. Hop in there, play a bunch of games and let us know!
Protoss Mothership Core When Purify is cast on a player’s Nexus, it now also grants detection to 13 range. Energize has been removed.
Oracle The cost of Entomb has been lowered from 100 to 75, while the duration has been increased from 50 to 60 seconds. Revelation has been changed to the following: This ability will now also work on buildings, granting 3 vision around every unit it hits. The duration has been increased from 45 seconds to 60 seconds, and the cost has been increased from 50 to 75. This ability will no longer grant detection. This ability will not affect cloaked targets, even if you have detection of them at the time. The button arrangement for this unit has been adjusted to list Void Siphon first and Entomb last.
Tempest This unit’s native bonus damage to massive units has been removed. This unit no longer requires a Fleet Beacon. We have added a new weapon upgrade called Quantic Reactor at the Fleet Beacon which will grant Tempest attacks +35 damage to massive units. Quantic Reactor costs 200/200. The cost of this unit has been changed from 300/300 to 300/200. The supply cost for this unit has changed from 6 to 4. The scale of this unit has been lowered from 1 to 0.9.
Sentry Hallucination no longer requires research.
Zerg Viper Viper acceleration has been increased from 2.125 to 3. The radius of Blinding Cloud has increased from 1.5 to 2.
Spore Crawler This unit no longer requires an Evolution Chamber.
Terran Widow Mine The setup time for this unit has been increased from 2 seconds to 3 seconds.
Battle Hellion This unit has been renamed to “Hellbat.”
some interesting stuff, have to raise my eyebrows at some of it
mothership core changes are fine, energize plus oracles is pretty freaking ridiculous. curious if they'll replace it with anything.
oracle is meh, entomb is still a gay ability and i'll whine about it till the end of time. seems to be slowly turning into the protoss version of the BW queen, with revelation being somewhat like parasite, so i guess that's cool. void siphon is still dumb.
tempest changes look very good to me. it looks like they're trying to use it as a bridge to allow you to go full-on air and eventually get the carrier. i'm not sure how much it'll step on the void ray's toes though. the balance team are probably curious about that as well so i guess we'll see how this develops over the next month or so.
sentry change will be interesting, allow protoss players to make more spur-of-the-moment use of the spell which is otherwise often not worth the price of research, or at least i can't see it being worth it now that the mothership core is around.
viper is ok i guess, i've seen blinding cloud used to ridiculous effect even with it's smaller radius, but maybe it's too cost prohibitive to rely on.
spore crawler change is kind of "wut". i guess they want to kill stargate openers altogether, which is interesting considering at the same time they're busy trying to beef up stargate play.
widow mine change is needed but it won't be enough. recharging their mines needs to cost minerals.
Wow. Blizzard is throwing out a bunch of random stuff hoping that it will work. Honestly, this looks like a great time to be involved with the beta. It's like you're playing a whole new meta-game with every patch release.
Just hammers out games using new tempest PvZ. Seems solid when followed up by blink. Also, keep the momma core with the tempests and recall if mutas attack or whatev.
I really like decision to eliminate the need of an evo chamber to tech to spore crawler. Zerg has enough problems with anti air in the early game, and this will def help. That was actually my only gripe with zerg in HotS. My only problem with this patch is with hallucination. I think its a good move to make it no longer need researching but I do not like that this will add another scouting tool to protoss; who already have more than enough scouting units with the introduction of the oracle. I would like to suggest that hallucination no longer creates tier 1 units+phoenix. Personally I think the real strategy use of hallucination is fooling your opponent into countering units that dont exist. Example: Making several hallucinated colossi so a terran makes vikings or zergs make corruptors, which would then become useless. Really: who hallucinates zealots, stalkers and/or sentries... theres just no point to do that. (I can see a purpose to zealots but I have never once seen it in a pro game.)
On October 13 2012 14:32 BlazinHot wrote: I really like decision to eliminate the need of an evo chamber to tech to spore crawler. Zerg has enough problems with anti air in the early game, and this will def help. That was actually my only gripe with zerg in HotS. My only problem with this patch is with hallucination. I think its a good move to make it no longer need researching but I do not like that this will add another scouting tool to protoss; who already have more than enough scouting units with the introduction of the oracle. I would like to suggest that hallucination no longer creates tier 1 units+phoenix. Personally I think the real strategy use of hallucination is fooling your opponent into countering units that dont exist. Example: Making several hallucinated colossi so a terran makes vikings or zergs make corruptors, which would then become useless. Really: who hallucinates zealots, stalkers and/or sentries... theres just no point to do that. (I can see a purpose to zealots but I have never once seen it in a pro game.)
Except the Zerg already has a very good anti-air unit early on: the Queen. The only problem right now is Zerg being incredibly greedy with clown car drones and blind thirds before Lair.
Why don´t they call the battle hellion, FireBat?? is that dificult to see that it is indeed a firebat with damage upgrade? oh blizzard, you want sc2 to become bw so bad, but you know it must stay somewhat masked....
On October 13 2012 13:58 SirisH wrote: Haha :D Huge changes and people just complain about the Spore crawler. I haver never seen a terran losing to a Dtrush how does it come? Oh wait free scan. I have never seen T or P losing to burrowed units, because they have anyways detection - cannon at the wall or again, the free scan. But i have seen many Z die to cloaked banshee, dt rush etc. and here is the thing.
People are complaining about zerg units and how they dont require skill etc. but they insist on Cloaked banshee, Dt rush A move no skill builds? hypocrites.
Some HotS guides for new player will look like this: Install game, chose protoss, 5 cannons at the wall -> mass tempest. People at lower leagues cant scout (besides terran, A-move like no skill scan) nor spend fast enough their minerals and will die to it like mass voidrays :D
Lets summ up: People are mad that zerg now needs 30 seconds instead of 65 seconds to build earlygame detection/ AA to counter strategys which doesnt really require skill like the infestor. Terrans instant QQ but i dont know why - WHICH cloaked zerg unit causes an instant lose earlygame?
you are talking out your ass with no real points... how is dt or banshee "no skill a move strat. if you lose the game instantly to either of these strats you really need to rethink your play because that is embarrassing. Comparing the infestor which is a main part of your army to dt's or banshee which are harass units is a silly comparison and makes no sense. also scan is not free and most of the time mules are used in order to compete with the zerg larva mechanic and chronoboost so in the early game scans are very valuable. Please dont post unless you have somthing usefull to say because your full of shit
American kid is claiming just noobs lose to these strats? srsly? Dont have to talk to you, due to lack of knowlegde of this game/ highest level of play. Did i say Infestor = dt/banshee or did i say these units doesnt require skill? The Scan is free - you dont lose anything besides Energy, you dont have to build anything because there is a cloaked threat. And insisting on spending your energy only for mules is hilarious.
My point is, this community is real bad, huge changes people just continue to QQ about Zerg. I want to thx Digselect, ROOTod, Rotterdamn, Taeja, IDra etc. for showing low leagues that QQ is fully accepted and ok. Also all of you besides Taeja should just play more or retire expecially old man Tod, which made this year like 500 dollar pricemoney - even working at Mc´s would be more profitable.
And if someone really thinks i was serious about everything in my post above he should google the word Hyperbole.
On October 13 2012 13:59 awesomoecalypse wrote: If detection is going to be this much more readily available, DTs need a buff or they'll be utterly useless. Maybe get rid of the DT shrine and put them back on the same building as HTs?
Then I want Cloak for Banshees and Ghosts without Upgrade!
A good lesson on how a squad of devs is wasting time by being stupid. Terrible terrible changes.
1) Entomb basically means you HAVE TO have anti-air defense around every base now, because they made it even longer. I seriously doubt any low league player will have the skill to defend/undo this and the longer duration just makes it more powerful in those leagues. 2) A name change? REALLY? 3) The Tempest really only has one job: anti-massive ... and only if you are bored enough to waste your supply and resources on building a bunch (because a few dont cut it). Why on earth do you allow them to be built without a Fleet Beacon? Just so it becomes OP in lower leagues to justify your decision to keep it in? 4) Why not have Concussive shells (or Stimpack or Combat shield) require no research anymore ... just like Hallucination and just like Spore Crawlers not requiring Evo Chambers anymore? Why not just throw away all of the research?
Blizzard, you are going from bad to worse by this "lets get funkier and funkier" design.
So I played several games today and am still playing, but I have to tell you, nothing has changed at all. Nothing feels different, I play just as I did before and keep winning just as before. The reason for this is that people simply don't know how to play. 99% of what people talk about is completly irrelevant.
The changes were silly (except the small ones like the burrow time, that is the way to got, but why brainlessly redesign oracle?)
My only loss today was against a guy who just ignored my widow mines and attacked me with archon/zealot, I don't think he killed 1 widow mine the entire game (I only build 5-6)
I like the changes (except spore one) but...why is the void ray still in it....maybe they will give it photon missiles and call it scout....I can dream cant I?
purify detect is cool and will help with going a different tech but i dont like how they came to this decision. Widow mine forces 2 changes to other races (spore, which is a dumb change) and purify detect (needed but not for mines)
If anything change the mines. requires armory? that seems like it would delay it enough for the other racees to have a fighting chance
HellBat is kinda a dumb name, and I preferred having detection on Stargate rather than on MSC, but some of the other changes are quite nice. I like the Tempest change, it kinda makes the Void Ray redundant, but a 15 range unit at Stargate tech is just so mad fun that I hope it stays.
Viper acceleration fuck yes. God those things were fast but so slow to get started. No research for hallucination is also really nice, now players can trade two forcefields for a temporary fast observer that requires more apm and less resources. No evo-chamber requirement is nice as well, dealing with proxy widow mine allin will be much nicer. To everybody bitching about banshees and dts not being good enough, not even close to true. Late game, three/four/five banshees/dts can ruin a zerg base in seconds. This reduces cheese while having no effect on lategame (where they'll have evo anyways anyways).
That is what people wanted isn't it? I don't know I guess I'll have to play around with it.
On October 13 2012 16:15 p14c wrote: At this pace Blizzard will make Widow Mines completely useless..I knew from the start that it is a stupid designed unit.
What do you mean at this pace. Right now the widow rocket is incredibly powerful and this 1 second delay to burrow is far from making it completely useless lol.
I mean look at the swarmhost for example, that unit has been nerfed quiet a bit since day 1 and they were doing a lot more severe changes to that unit then the widow rocket so far (with only 1 nerf, it's not longer a widow mine either imo).
It seems like they just keep making changes for the sake of it. They didn't make the new units to be in sinergy with the rest of the units, so now they just try to change everything else until hopefully balance is achieved. I'm really thinking to stick to WoL for a while until this crazy loop ends ( I said this assuming they want to launch HotS this year )
On October 13 2012 06:08 aZealot wrote: No energize? I am a sad Zealot.
Man, this Beta is going to be long with this, as far as I can see, scattergun approach to HotS. I already find these frequent updates exhausting. Although, from another point of view, it's also a regular dose for the many SC2 'junkies' on TL. Too long between balance patches, and there will be withdrawal symptoms for many on TL. LOL.
WoL beta updates were just as frequent and just as drastic. I like Blizz's approach and I think it creates interesting data and perspective.
I was not on TL and did not participate or observe the WOL beta process. Other feedback I have heard around these parts tends to suggest that the HotS beta, while similar to the WOL beta, is actually worse in terms of scale and speed of change.
In any case, I thought about my post later and thought I might be too hard on the Blizzard team. My concern is that it is hard to know where the game is being directed or to make out the shape of the final destination. But, to be fair to Blizzard it is early days yet of an admittedly long Beta process. Secondly, it may be that the Dev team have a general idea of what the final game will be like, but are unsure of the elements making up that final product. Rather like assembling a jigsaw from an incomplete picture while also not being confident you have all the pieces. If it works, so be it. I guess we will have to wait and see.
My other concern, and this, I think, was borne out of the somewhat haphazard WOL beta process, is what happens after release of HotS?. The first year of WOL was full of continued patches, some quite substantive. We've really only had a settled game, more or less, for about a year or so. If this current HotS beta approach continues, I foresee a similar process soon after release. I do, hope, however, that the Balance team learned from the first time around, and that they ignore their own best intentions and community whining and leave the game alone as much as possible after release.
On October 13 2012 16:15 p14c wrote: At this pace Blizzard will make Widow Mines completely useless..I knew from the start that it is a stupid designed unit.
What do you mean at this pace. Right now the widow rocket is incredibly powerful and this 1 second delay to burrow is far from making it completely useless lol.
I mean look at the swarmhost for example, that unit has been nerfed quiet a bit since day 1 and they were doing a lot more severe changes to that unit then the widow rocket so far (with only 1 nerf, it's not longer a widow mine either imo).
Quit arguing with biased people. They think that it was balanced that you can go in enemy base, burrow before Mines even died, and kill his whole army. And the whole point of the Mines were to be defensive, area control units, not offensive units.
And now, a nerf to 1 second burrow time is TOO MUCH! Just wow...
On October 13 2012 13:00 734pot wrote: To the firebatmobile!
<3
I don't think a fast tempest rush is as scary as it sounds. It has 15 range, but not 15 sight, you can destroy whatever unit spots for it. Fast tempest + observer could be scary for a zerg, but that's too much tech and gas to be really "fast".
In my opinion, what we're seeing now is the dying stages of a number of design ideas, namely:
- Entomb - Purify - Revelation
Entomb will be gone within a patch or two. Revelation will go as well and they will redesign the Oracle entirely to be a proper air support caster ala the Raven. As the beta gets bigger they will realize just how messy Entomb is.
Purify is in that awkward position of being either too weak or too strong. They'll eventually normalise it to range 9 and remove the detection. It'll be linked to the Nexus rather than the MSc.
Widow Mines just need an extra 1-2s on their burrow time and to be linked to the Armory. Rushing for Widow Mines to deny a third should be a viable strategy, but not so viable that it instantly wins no matter when the Factory goes down. Spore Crawler will go back on the evo chamber. I don't think they will kill off early banshee/DT builds entirely. It will still hit air and cloaked units.
Tempest will continue to get smaller. 2 of them (8 supply) one shot a worker from relative safety. That's actually pretty cool tbh. They have a mid game role of harassment from range which forces a specific response, hard counter the units they are supposed to hard counter and so on. Void Ray will lose its bonus to massive and be readjusted as a straight up engagement unit.
On October 13 2012 06:08 aZealot wrote: No energize? I am a sad Zealot.
Man, this Beta is going to be long with this, as far as I can see, scattergun approach to HotS. I already find these frequent updates exhausting. Although, from another point of view, it's also a regular dose for the many SC2 'junkies' on TL. Too long between balance patches, and there will be withdrawal symptoms for many on TL. LOL.
WoL beta updates were just as frequent and just as drastic. I like Blizz's approach and I think it creates interesting data and perspective.
I was not on TL and did not participate or observe the WOL beta process. Other feedback I have heard around these parts tends to suggest that the HotS beta, while similar to the WOL beta, is actually worse in terms of scale and speed of change.
In any case, I thought about my post later and thought I might be too hard on the Blizzard team. My concern is that it is hard to know where the game is being directed or to make out the shape of the final destination. But, to be fair to Blizzard it is early days yet of an admittedly long Beta process. Secondly, it may be that the Dev team have a general idea of what the final game will be like, but are unsure of the elements making up that final product. Rather like assembling a jigsaw from an incomplete picture while also not being confident you have all the pieces. If it works, so be it. I guess we will have to wait and see.
My other concern, and this, I think, was borne out of the somewhat haphazard WOL beta process, is what happens after release of HotS?. The first year of WOL was full of continued patches, some quite substantive. We've really only had a settled game, more or less, for about a year or so. If this current HotS beta approach continues, I foresee a similar process soon after release. I do, hope, however, that the Balance team learned from the first time around, and that they ignore their own best intentions and community whining and leave the game alone as much as possible after release.
There is nothing"worse"with having big and frequent changes in a beta.
I can't believe Widow Mine 2.0 is actually being taken seriously, when a unit causes you to literally add detection to Purify and remove the Evolotion Chamber requirement for Spore Crawler then you clearly have a game warping unit, and the search for a new core unit for Terran is going to ruin the game ... again
At least the Tempest is moving in the right direction, Oracle is still pointless.
On October 13 2012 18:45 MoonCricket wrote: I can't believe Widow Mine 2.0 is actually being taken seriously, when a unit causes you to literally add detection to Purify and remove the Evolotion Chamber requirement for Spore Crawler then you clearly have a game warping unit, and the search for a new core unit for Terran is going to ruin the game ... again
At least the Tempest is moving in the right direction, Oracle is still pointless.
Why the big fuss, they already did that with the Marauder and Roach. I still remember being salty...
At least they're taking *some* player feedback into consideration. e.g. Widow Mine 2.0, portable mini-missile silo!
They should remove all the detection buffs, and just find a way to nerf the early game widow-mine like: Regular widow-mine = nerfed version Widow-mine with armory/techlab upgrade = its current form.
I can not help feeling that they are making things overly complicated.
The widow mine coming so early has meant the other races need earlier detection which breaks the way other openers work. Why not just make the widow mine come later, require a tech building or it is initially visible when burrowed, until some research is done.
I like the change for hallucination and think some are overestimating how powerful it could be. Of course earlier hallucination meant they had to remove energise, which is a shame as that ability had a lot of interesting potential.
It feels like they are just trying to make the mothership core cover too many things. Why not remove the mothership core and oracle and just give protoss the arbiter already, with slightly altered abilities/research upgrades. Some version of stasis field would serve the same purpose as entomb on workers and has other uses(I don't actually know if it was ever really used for that?)
Perhaps add an ability to the nexus to turn it into a temporary cannon, it could require a cyber core, then there are interesting choices between saving energy for defence or chrono boost, opponents can try and force nexus cannons or hit times when protoss have used all of the energy on chrono. Banshees and Dts have their place vs Terran even though they have scan.
This patch it's really awful. Cloacked strategies are now totally useless cause every race has free detection... really bad. At least tempest changes seem nice, but i still believe that tempest will remove voidrays from this game.
haha after the first shock over this patch, I actually like the name hellbat. As if some marines on seeing this this unit said: "This looks like a super firebat dood". As for the better detection, it actually means they can reduce the timings on everything, faster shrine, cheaper cloak etc. they can nerf the anti air ability of the queen >:3. Burrow on t1 is probably to early since its only defensive for toss.
Overall I think they listened way to much to the community on these changes :3
cloaked banshees or DTs are big commitment and serve high risk - high reward mechanism. Adding more detection ONLY becouse of widow mines is utterly stupid, nerf widow mines instead of changing whole game to make them fit...
On October 13 2012 18:34 Zvenn3n wrote: "Spore Crawler This unit no longer requires an Evolution Chamber."
The death of DT strats T_T I feel bad for InCa.
How is it the death of DT builds?
DT builds worked in SC1 and zergs could detect with normal overlords :p
On October 13 2012 20:29 Tomasy wrote: cloaked banshees or DTs are big commitment and serve high risk - high reward mechanism. Adding more detection ONLY becouse of widow mines is utterly stupid, nerf widow mines instead of changing whole game to make them fit...
I think it's better to leave the widow mines as they are and buff everything else. Makes it more exciting and doesn't lead to boring games.
WOL, as much as I love it, was ruined by the fact stuff was over nerfed in the beta, meaning nothing was super powerful and it ruined certain units, like the tank.
On October 13 2012 18:54 rename wrote: They should remove all the detection buffs, and just find a way to nerf the early game widow-mine like: Regular widow-mine = nerfed version Widow-mine with armory/techlab upgrade = its current form.
Regular Widow mine= doesnt have Unstable Payload upgrade and is a one time use mine only. Widow mine with armory/techlab upgrade= upgrade gives Unstable Payload giving the mine abillity to rebuild itself after use.
Viper Viper acceleration has been increased from 2.125 to 3. The radius of Blinding Cloud has increased from 1.5 to 2. The only changes I see as good. I really don't like any of the others.
On October 13 2012 05:55 Lactomar wrote: Terran now has no cost efficient answer to the tempest. 300/150 for two vikings, 300/200 for a tempest. 1 tempest can take 2 vikings. What does does terran make to answer Tempest / Zealot now (assuming the protoss is clever enough to keep the tempests near cliffs and ridges)?
Cloaked Banshees.
Air base race ftw.
Also, you can produce 4 vikings well before that 2nd tempest every reaches you... it's dead in the water after it does minimal damage.
I'm sure pro players will be able to spot a tempest rush a mile away as well.
On October 13 2012 19:56 memcpy wrote: Played a friend ZvP and he did proxy stargate tempest rush behind my mineral line. If you don't go 2 base spire vs that it's pretty much game over.
Or scouting it, perhaps? Proxy-all ins usually kill you unless you scouted or got lucky.
I'd love to see something more outside the box with the oracle, give it a small AoE ability that when it hits a unit, allows hallucinations to do damage to them or something new
The thing that is scaring me the most is that I no longer have trust in Blizzard. I used to believe that this game would be better than WoL, by the time of release. But if some of these changes go through at the end of beta, this game is going to be seriously flawed.
Free Hallucinations are gonna be mighty broken. They should have just decreased the cost / and or time for the upgrade.
Imagine all the troll strats you could do with this. 4 gate with mass hallucinations. 1 base colossus allin with 5 hallucinated colossi. Show an hallucinated void ray , then a hallucinate colossus and then attack with an tempest ...
Protoss scouting just got a lot better and this opens up yet another way to abuse blink stalkers in the early game. It is even more hilarious that this was in response to "low level feedback".
They never cared that terran was severly underrepresented in WoLs lower leagues...
Remove evo chamber requirement for spore crawler ..... Really Blizzard? Really? Pulled another "barracks requires a depot" change because you can't help yourself but give terran the most op fuckin openings in the game. In fact they are so broken you have to change something so fundamental as spore crawlers? And wtf am I to do with spore crawlers versus mines anyways? You gave me nothing to fight back with, im still contained. All you did was make it so I don't just die to the first 2 mines. Thanks, I guess ...
One-one-one...on hallucation being broken, I don't that will be the case. You still need to scout protoss and know timings. If you are depending on seeing the army makeup to determine what they are doing that is too late and too ineffective.
A colossi has a build time of 75 seconds, robo bay has a build time of 65 seconds and robo facility costs 65 seconds. Any player worth his salt, knows 4gate + mass colossi is not a real army.
Plus...for all the cases in which hallucinations would be effective...quite often what the case is that forcefield is MORE effective so ironically enough a protoss player who masses sentries for fake battle units, will end up using forcefield STILL instead.
I do hope there are creative uses for this. Especially vs ranged units like siege tanks, colossi, spines, etc...forcefield loses its effectiveness and creating a bunch of fake zealots or stalkers to soak up damage might be a great strategy.
Well I just realised that the new spore crawler stuff (ie. no need an evo) also almost killed any stargate opening in PvZ, because imo zerg players will start to automatically build some spores without even knowing what's coming (I mean, it's not a huge investment for them)
On October 13 2012 05:55 Lactomar wrote: Terran now has no cost efficient answer to the tempest. 300/150 for two vikings, 300/200 for a tempest. 1 tempest can take 2 vikings. What does does terran make to answer Tempest / Zealot now (assuming the protoss is clever enough to keep the tempests near cliffs and ridges)?
Cloaked Banshees.
Air base race ftw.
Also, you can produce 4 vikings well before that 2nd tempest every reaches you... it's dead in the water after it does minimal damage.
I'm sure pro players will be able to spot a tempest rush a mile away as well.
I have the super awesome answer and it's called PDD. Yes ravens pdd will negate tempest shots.
Tempest changes are hugely interesting. A true harassment unit? Or a new defensive unit? Not being obvious gives me hope. Can they be used like a siege tank to defend random pressure while defending and expanding? And if no pressure, harass?
Hallucination change sounds great. The more scouting is available, the worse map hackers will lose. And games become less coin-flippy. And does it make sentries not useless against widow mines (mines have always gone through forcefields even when they weren't missles)?
Losing reveal on Oracle is really really sad though. Gaining reveal on MSC's purify is good vs mines, but useless vs. super fast swarmhost rush. So still have to go observer vs swarmhosts... but maybe that rush has counters enough now due to MSC's normal attack.
Terribly sad about losing energize. I just wanted to see it used in clutch situations with sentries or high templar. Would much rather the old entomb with energize in the game... gives Protoss more things to do.
3 second burrow time on window mine seems reasonable. They actually die on offense sometimes now... wasn't the case before (stalker and queen low dps). Still, how is Protoss going to walk across the map with mines hitting observers? Seems like a major problem still. Is Blizzard telling P to rush Tempests for harass vs. Terran and avoid ground? Maybe with MSC early poke you see mines and adjust to robo immediately. Seems like twilight tech PvT [EDIT: for early game] is at it's weakest unless Halluc can somehow do enough vs mines.
Spore crawler change all because of the widow mine... if it wasn't for the new tempest I'd be crying fowl in a big way. As if air opening PvZ wasn't hard enough. But with the new tempest... 1 tempest + 4 phoenix harass good? All about the timing. Makes TvZ banshee all-ins harder. Not sure if that was necessary, but if widow mines stay the way they are I bet it will be.
I love the halluc change; now that it isn't an upgrade, it can be used as a staple in Protoss play as opposed to a gimmick, as it was before.
Hellbat is an hilarious name, they are admitting that they are bringing back the firebat, which is cool.
I also think that now Protoss have hallucination that a LOT of the problems they once had with early-game pressure will be solved, and we'll be seeing a lot more interesting micro choices (generally if the enemy is rushing the Protoss they skip detection, which makes hallucination even stronger.
On October 13 2012 20:29 Tomasy wrote: cloaked banshees or DTs are big commitment and serve high risk - high reward mechanism. Adding more detection ONLY becouse of widow mines is utterly stupid, nerf widow mines instead of changing whole game to make them fit...
I think it's better to leave the widow mines as they are and buff everything else. Makes it more exciting and doesn't lead to boring games.
WOL, as much as I love it, was ruined by the fact stuff was over nerfed in the beta, meaning nothing was super powerful and it ruined certain units, like the tank.
Did you watch BW PvZ? Do you know how slow overlord were and Toss can dominate air in the early game. Things are totally different now.
On October 13 2012 22:26 See.Blue wrote: I'd love to see something more outside the box with the oracle, give it a small AoE ability that when it hits a unit, allows hallucinations to do damage to them or something new
Awesome! Loved that idea. Oracle definitely in desperate need of a complete make over.
On October 13 2012 18:34 Zvenn3n wrote: "Spore Crawler This unit no longer requires an Evolution Chamber."
The death of DT strats T_T I feel bad for InCa.
How is it the death of DT builds?
DT builds worked in SC1 and zergs could detect with normal overlords :p
On October 13 2012 20:29 Tomasy wrote: cloaked banshees or DTs are big commitment and serve high risk - high reward mechanism. Adding more detection ONLY becouse of widow mines is utterly stupid, nerf widow mines instead of changing whole game to make them fit...
I think it's better to leave the widow mines as they are and buff everything else. Makes it more exciting and doesn't lead to boring games.
WOL, as much as I love it, was ruined by the fact stuff was over nerfed in the beta, meaning nothing was super powerful and it ruined certain units, like the tank.
Did you watch BW PvZ? Do you know how slow overlord were and Toss can dominate air in the early game. Things are totally different now.
My point still stands that the spore crawler needs to burrow/unborrow and works around the same speed (maybe a little faster, that could be changed) as the old overlords used to do, meaning if they increased the burrow time to compensate for having them able to run around or maybe increase the cost, dts still wouldn't be useless.
You people bitch and groan about updates but most of you dont even have a beta key... especially the polls its annoying to see all thumbs down, have even given a try for a week?
I really hate what they did to Protoss this patch, seems like blizzard is really going backwards:
Mothership Core add a copy of the terran "scan" macro mechanic, except it can only be used on the nexus?? Apparently the scan mechanic is so imbalanced that a nerf was needed in the form of removing the unique energise, possibly killing of a whole new tree of Protoss statagies involving energising D: (really hate this one)
Oracle Slight "buff" to entomb (yay), but at the cost of mobile stargate detection, great protoss now needs to get a robo everygame before even thing of leaving their base.
Tempest Seems the no fleet beacon requirement is gonna be patched anyway, I can see too many chap tactics with the oracle and Hallucination + tempest rush vs zerg.
Sentry Hallucination no longer requires research, well can't complain about this, I guess we will actually see this ability used for once.
Battle Hellion This unit has been renamed to “Hellbat.”
BAHAHAHAHA. omg i wasn't expecting this at all. i'm going down the list thinking "good change, pretty good change, good change..." then this. wtf. haha.
On October 14 2012 00:22 Rukis wrote: You people bitch and groan about updates but most of you dont even have a beta key... especially the polls its annoying to see all thumbs down, have even given a try for a week?
You don't need a beta key to acquire the ability to read.
Spore crawler not requiring a evo chamber because of ONE unit, STUPID! This is the same dumb thinking that nerfed rax build time to combat the 11/11 rax rush, ONE build. Taking a sledge hammer to hammer in a thumb tack, get your head out of your ass blizzard
I think the Tempest finally saw a true change in the right direction in this patch, but it's barely half way thru. I think it has a fundamental flaw in it's design is that that it is both a harass unit and so massive and durable. The trick of using it should be abusing the long range and avoid close contact. If something got to it unprotected it should usually be game over. That will make for a unique and interesting unit. This is how I would go about it.
Conservative version: supply reduce to 3 cost reduced to 150/150. Health and shields reduced to 150/75.
Extreme version: supply reduced to 3 cost reduced to 150/150. Health and shields reduced to 100/50. Armor reduced to 1 range increased to 18 speed increased to 2.5
Personally, I think the extreme option is much cooler, but blizz is very conservative in their ways, so I see less chance of it happening. BTW, in combination with this change it could be great to redesign the Oracle as a spotter for the Tempest. This can be done by giving it an AOE spell that gives a speed buff to flying allies (instead of the stupid siphon). This can help tempests escape while the oracle is left behind to die. Other changes could be increasing oracle speed health and shields a bit as it will be in the forefront of battle and will need some protection.
On October 13 2012 20:29 Tomasy wrote: cloaked banshees or DTs are big commitment and serve high risk - high reward mechanism. Adding more detection ONLY becouse of widow mines is utterly stupid, nerf widow mines instead of changing whole game to make them fit...
I think it's better to leave the widow mines as they are and buff everything else. Makes it more exciting and doesn't lead to boring games.
WOL, as much as I love it, was ruined by the fact stuff was over nerfed in the beta, meaning nothing was super powerful and it ruined certain units, like the tank.
I have to strongly disagree with those replies....
they're making strategies involving cloaking less effective all across the board just to force a unit in the game, like the mine...
and regarding the overnerfing, well, that is so wrong I cna't even start...
BW was a gret game because no units were too powerful by themselves... SC2 s already full of OP stuff that can often win you the game very quickly if the opponent is not prepared... (banshees doom drops, colossus of course, the list goes on) overall SC2 is already a little too fast for a strategy game, adding imba units and wrecking the whole game in the process is not the way to go about it...
if widow mines can be so good they should come out later, simple as that, and protoss still has no detection outside of robo, Blizzard is just doing the worst possible job with this patch and shows no interest in making protoss fun or even playable
I like the change that sporecrawler doesnt require evolution chamber... however i don't see how that is fair to protoss and terran who need still need to build a forge or engineering bay to build canons and missile turrets. If you bring gum to class, make sure you bring enough for everyone blizzard.
I like they are not afraid to try different things. Its a beta folks. Embrace that they are being experimental. Try them out. Watch some games. Give good feedback from experience.
On October 14 2012 02:14 Spensaur wrote: I like the change that sporecrawler doesnt require evolution chamber... however i don't see how that is fair to protoss and terran who need still need to build a forge or engineering bay to build canons and missile turrets. If you bring gum to class, make sure you bring enough for everyone blizzard.
True, but MsC and Scan don't need specific tech either.
On October 14 2012 02:14 Spensaur wrote: I like the change that sporecrawler doesnt require evolution chamber... however i don't see how that is fair to protoss and terran who need still need to build a forge or engineering bay to build canons and missile turrets. If you bring gum to class, make sure you bring enough for everyone blizzard.
True, but MsC and Scan don't need specific tech either.
On October 14 2012 02:14 Spensaur wrote: I like the change that sporecrawler doesnt require evolution chamber... however i don't see how that is fair to protoss and terran who need still need to build a forge or engineering bay to build canons and missile turrets. If you bring gum to class, make sure you bring enough for everyone blizzard.
True, but MsC and Scan don't need specific tech either.
theyre also temporary
Scan is also 'mobile'. (Used wherever you want it)
- Hmm. Maybe a bit far to make protoss basically immune to all cloaked unit rushes and make it so available but it sounds interesting. - Awww! Come on, that's a cool ability! Can the mothership-core get something like mass cloaking instead? Perhaps make the detection ability seperate. - Good decision, entomb was much too costly before. - A really interesting change! It's unfortunate that this is so similar to the queen's "parasite" ability but none the less a welcomed change. This being said, i wish it were not 75 energy as this seems to leave the orace with a odd-amount of energy. Rather than using 2 entombs and then a revelation they must have 50 energy left over now. - WOOOHOO! MASSIVE Tempest Change! I totally called this last time in a general forums thread as well! I'm really happy to see the tempest get a more specified role and to have it lowered to a non-fleet beacon non-6 supply status. All the changes in stats are great to me, my only complaint is the lack of micro that is involved still. I would like to see it's acceleration and max speed toyed around with to make it harder to move around and stutter with. - Exciting and odd to be sure but perhaps a bit much. I think that people far underestimate the power of hallucinate. While it may be expensive to cast, the oppertunity to really fool your opponent and soak damage is grand.
- Seems alright, considering the viper's original intent (I think) was to be a more mobile support caster it's nice to see this promoted. Hopefully blinding cloud hasn't been overdone but i think that with the tempest change and terran's inherently strong a-a we should be fine. - Why...? This seems to be further discouraging aggression which is not necessarily a good thing. I think that allowing zerg to be this flexible against things such as cloaked banshees and dts makes the game a bit stale. While it's not fun to see someone gimick their way to a win with such cheesy-rushes it's also not too fun to watch two players turtle up on standard compositions and then fight off of three bases.
- Absolutely required, perhaps change a bit more even. I would rather have seen the build time increased a tad or perhaps the set up time to 4 seconds but we'll see. - REALLY!? This just angers me. It's literally the only thing that bothers me at this point. Battlehellions are significantly different from firebats but blizzard has gradually made them more and more than same to the point that they're actually biological for some god forsaken reason. I would rather see them made more mech-ish through some manner, perhaps increase to transformation time and make the upgrade scale for battlehellions much higher. - Oh yeah. That's it. Terran got no buffs to BCs and Ravens.... We're still waiting blizzard. -_-
On October 14 2012 00:39 AmericanPsycho wrote: I really hate what they did to Protoss this patch, seems like blizzard is really going backwards:
Mothership Core add a copy of the terran "scan" macro mechanic, except it can only be used on the nexus?? Apparently the scan mechanic is so imbalanced that a nerf was needed in the form of removing the unique energise, possibly killing of a whole new tree of Protoss statagies involving energising D: (really hate this one)
Oracle Slight "buff" to entomb (yay), but at the cost of mobile stargate detection, great protoss now needs to get a robo everygame before even thing of leaving their base.
Tempest Seems the no fleet beacon requirement is gonna be patched anyway, I can see too many chap tactics with the oracle and Hallucination + tempest rush vs zerg.
Sentry Hallucination no longer requires research, well can't complain about this, I guess we will actually see this ability used for once.
You got Hallucination free, you can just fly around their base and looks whats going on, you don't need to go Robo right from the start so I think you can still go Stargate in the beginning.
On October 14 2012 01:15 teamhozac wrote: Spore crawler not requiring a evo chamber because of ONE unit, STUPID! This is the same dumb thinking that nerfed rax build time to combat the 11/11 rax rush, ONE build. Taking a sledge hammer to hammer in a thumb tack, get your head out of your ass blizzard
if terrans weren't using 11/11 rax rush every game back then it wouldn't have gotten nerfed now would it? it's garbage to say they shouldn't nerf something because of one strategy if all you're doing is using that one strategy.
I don't have HOTS beta, but I still enjoy seeing the balance updates. I've always felt that Toss was always forced Robo because of the lack of scouting and detection that happens if you don't get it. But now that hallucination is free (SICK), and you can get detection via Mothership Core (only at your base but that's livable with), I feel that a lot of these problems are solved. Toss doesn't have to do a guessing game about "what's behind the wall?" with this new hallucination thing. Maybe I'm a bit biased toward Toss being that its my main race but I like these changes.
On October 14 2012 02:14 Spensaur wrote: I like the change that sporecrawler doesnt require evolution chamber... however i don't see how that is fair to protoss and terran who need still need to build a forge or engineering bay to build canons and missile turrets. If you bring gum to class, make sure you bring enough for everyone blizzard.
On October 14 2012 05:23 CHOMPMannER wrote: It just seems like they are making HOTS for a more casual audience. WoL a little more geared toward competitive players.
You can always keep playing WoL if you don't like HOTS.
It's a beta and nothing is final.
Eh? What a silly thing to say.
Firstly, HoTS is an expansion, not a seperate game so they're mixing it around in beta with the hots units currently to see where they can get them to fit. They'll then change the other units to fit around them too.
It's only the 6th? week of the beta and as you said nothing is final.
seems like a very interesting patch. i like these changes, its actually the first time i see a massive improvement.
the shift of the detection from revelation to the rather expensive purify makes stargate opening a bit more susceptible against cloaked units of course. before you could just cast revelation and then energize your oracle for the next DT/banshee, now with a 100 energy cost of you are only able to save 1 mineral line from these units when going stargate+expansion... quite a hard hit imho. makes stargate opening less viable. on the othe rhand you should be able to scout cloak tech easier now with hallucination, so it should be ok. but this way you need a robo again, when facing cloaked units, thats a bit sad. i'd love to see the protoss opening moving away from being robo-centric in all matchups. thats because concerning low level players i dont think phoenix really make cloaked banshee useless.. for that youneed to actively scout the edges of the map with phoenix to deny banshees, and most people wont do that and let banshees slip through. the spore change seems a bit over the top, you should need to tech for static aa and detection. not sure why that was changed, stargate openings usually come into play when the evo is up, same for cloak, it should not hit before lair. now zerg can again drone up like crazy in the earlygame without getting evo for security or lair for overseer/changeling scouting -.-
but overall very sound changes. not balance-wise, this only practice can tell, but perspective-wise. the units get more interesting. even old ones:-) and fancy names ofc^^
edit:
On October 14 2012 05:23 CHOMPMannER wrote: It just seems like they are making HOTS for a more casual audience. WoL a little more geared toward competitive players.
lol funny statement. add automine and a worker display to the game and suddenly the game is "more casual friendly"? guess thats not really true. if you look at the new units you see many with new unique abilities that need constant micro. you can ofc play like you played in WoL, but to utilize units like oracle, vyper, widow mines and hellbat you need skill and brain and can not just a-move. so i dont get your point at all.
On October 14 2012 05:49 TheLunatic wrote: Now we just need the ebay removed for turret construction and I'm good
Might as well, but with widow mines do you really need turrets? It one shots dts and does serious AOE vs mutas. In fact by skipping turrets, you might be inviting them to attack, and lose gas heavy units.
On October 14 2012 01:15 teamhozac wrote: Spore crawler not requiring a evo chamber because of ONE unit, STUPID! This is the same dumb thinking that nerfed rax build time to combat the 11/11 rax rush, ONE build. Taking a sledge hammer to hammer in a thumb tack, get your head out of your ass blizzard
if terrans weren't using 11/11 rax rush every game back then it wouldn't have gotten nerfed now would it? it's garbage to say they shouldn't nerf something because of one strategy if all you're doing is using that one strategy.
it worked, didn't it?
Yeah and in the process it nerfed EVERY single build terran has, except CC first
On October 13 2012 05:58 Treehead wrote: Wow... MsC detection, a Tempest that's available early on and is really, really good against massive units.Free Hallu, too.
I can't believe they took away Energize, though. That was seriously the spell I was most looking forward to in HotS.
I made a post about this on the beta forums. Hopefully Blizzard will read it. I too liked energize.
On October 13 2012 05:58 Treehead wrote: Wow... MsC detection, a Tempest that's available early on and is really, really good against massive units.Free Hallu, too.
I can't believe they took away Energize, though. That was seriously the spell I was most looking forward to in HotS.
I made a post about this on the beta forums. Hopefully Blizzard will read it. I too liked energize.
Energize was interesting because you could get a little creative with it. I'd like to see it used for just pure chrono boost none stop.
I would of liked to have entombed nerfed to bring back energize.
Protosses: Think of the Mothership like a flying Dragoon. Its role now is to boost P early game, on offense and defense. It's doing a fine job at that now, which I think is why they removed Energize.
On October 14 2012 05:23 CHOMPMannER wrote: It just seems like they are making HOTS for a more casual audience. WoL a little more geared toward competitive players.
You can always keep playing WoL if you don't like HOTS.
It's a beta and nothing is final.
Uh what? I don't see any reasoning behind that. WoL was made for a more casual audience in the beginning. If anything the beta(when balanced correctly) will give pro players more options and make it more of a competitive game.
Blizz has said they want to break up the death ball, which is a very casual player friendly. But I doubt they can succeed because the problems with WoL are not being fixed.
On October 14 2012 00:22 Rukis wrote: You people bitch and groan about updates but most of you dont even have a beta key... especially the polls its annoying to see all thumbs down, have even given a try for a week?
You don't need a beta key to acquire the ability to read.
Tbh protoss seems abit broken early game versus Z. The mothership core is too fast, and they can gateway expand versus a zerg, making them come out WAAYYY ahead + putting on pressure, so the zerg can't take his fast third.
How is it that early game protoss got buffed in HOTS, but zerg got nothing? What is zerg supposed to do.
On October 14 2012 05:31 cari-kira wrote: seems like a very interesting patch. i like these changes, its actually the first time i see a massive improvement.
the shift of the detection from revelation to the rather expensive purify makes stargate opening a bit more susceptible against cloaked units of course. before you could just cast revelation and then energize your oracle for the next DT/banshee, now with a 100 energy cost of you are only able to save 1 mineral line from these units when going stargate+expansion... quite a hard hit imho. makes stargate opening less viable. on the othe rhand you should be able to scout cloak tech easier now with hallucination, so it should be ok. but this way you need a robo again, when facing cloaked units, thats a bit sad. i'd love to see the protoss opening moving away from being robo-centric in all matchups. thats because concerning low level players i dont think phoenix really make cloaked banshee useless.. for that youneed to actively scout the edges of the map with phoenix to deny banshees, and most people wont do that and let banshees slip through. the spore change seems a bit over the top, you should need to tech for static aa and detection. not sure why that was changed, stargate openings usually come into play when the evo is up, same for cloak, it should not hit before lair. now zerg can again drone up like crazy in the earlygame without getting evo for security or lair for overseer/changeling scouting -.-
but overall very sound changes. not balance-wise, this only practice can tell, but perspective-wise. the units get more interesting. even old ones:-) and fancy names ofc^^
On October 14 2012 05:23 CHOMPMannER wrote: It just seems like they are making HOTS for a more casual audience. WoL a little more geared toward competitive players.
lol funny statement. add automine and a worker display to the game and suddenly the game is "more casual friendly"? guess thats not really true. if you look at the new units you see many with new unique abilities that need constant micro. you can ofc play like you played in WoL, but to utilize units like oracle, vyper, widow mines and hellbat you need skill and brain and can not just a-move. so i dont get your point at all.
On October 14 2012 08:31 Viter wrote: Tbh protoss seems abit broken early game versus Z. The mothership core is too fast, and they can gateway expand versus a zerg, making them come out WAAYYY ahead + putting on pressure, so the zerg can't take his fast third.
How is it that early game protoss got buffed in HOTS, but zerg got nothing? What is zerg supposed to do.
Also blizzard please fix widow mines <3
It's because Zerg isn't supposed to take a blind fast third. It seems normal because the current map pool and metagame allows Zerg to be greedy. If Zerg wants to be greedy, they need to pay the price for not properly scouting and reacting. Perhaps go Lair before third?
Plus Zerg gets another extremely good Caster and Siegebreaker so what else do they want? Not to mention that Hydras are semi viable again.
I do agree that the Widow Mines needs to be nerfed or removed and give Terran an actual unit and not some gimmicky crap.
On October 14 2012 08:23 phodacbiet wrote: Why are people complaining about spore buff? Back then Overlord had detection and things were still fine and dandy.
Halluc without research is cool. The Purify dectect buff is nice. I find the removal of energize strange. It was a great spell and allowed the MC to be played in multiple ways. The name change of the BH to Hell Bat is lame but doesn't effect game balance so I don't really mind.
Hallucination without research seems unnecessary. Sentries are already strong and easy to use. Hallucination is such a great spell it's really more the fault of Protoss for not getting it than the balance. Besides warp gates the core is rarely being used. The free and quick map wide scouting should require at least some investment.
i understand why they are removing energize from the balancing side, but am sad because i liked the ability, it was imo the most interesting ability of the msc. the other abilities seem to be pretty one sided to use and boring.
i dont really like the detection changes. the old solution kinda fixed the detection problem that WoL-toss nowadays has, the way it is now only provides a temporary stealth-protection of only one base. if they wanted to nerf wm-rushes, they could have done that without changing revelation, i dont see what speaks against leaving both detections in, especially if they take out energize.
on the other hand i really like the hallu change. sb said that it was giving toss free scouting, but that only is true if toss has already invested heavily into sentries, sth. toss currently tries to avoid. it could fix the "blind playing" that toss has nowadays and could heavily change pvp for the better. it also means that either hallu will become the new toss overlord-scout before tech or that robo-opening will become standard in two mu again.
the tempest-change is interesting, but the unit will probably be way to expensive to get it for harass only. and i absolutely didnt understand the statement that the other races should take out the spotter while at the same time they buff revelation so that it spots buildings for 60 seconds. until i noticed that two or less tempest will need an additional round of revelation to kill a hatch.
the widow-mine-change seems reasonable.
while i dont like all the changes, i really like that blizz is playing around and testing different things.
On October 14 2012 10:01 GolemMadness wrote: Stop buffing entomb every patch. Just get rid of it. It's a lame and boring spell.
this says it all
why ever have a spell/unit that enables "YOU CANNOT MINE RESOURCES" ?
its freakin ridiculous...
i fail to see how "3 workers die every second if they are in range 5" is a better concept. especially because the way to get rid of it is the same, except that entomb doesnt stack and doesnt fight back.
Entomb is a great example of Blizzard constantly using their imagination. It is a totally different ability that still accomplishes a similar goal of resource denying. It's not that you can't mine resources it's you have to do something on order to mine resources.
I do agree that the Widow Mines needs to be nerfed or removed and give Terran an actual unit and not some gimmicky crap.
What? Widow Mines so far are by far the best unit in the expansion in terms of being designed really well without borrowing ideas from other units.
I sincerely hope that you are trolling.
Widow mines are amazing. It creates a lot of positional play and makes TvX an interesting dynamism
Playing as t with them felt nice but playing against them feels just like horrible gameplay.
They restrict the player who plays vs them just way too much in what he can do. You can't do early pressure or allin aggression, you can't do harrasment, you can't even move your army around freely instead you need to move it pixel by pixel or camp it in your base which makes it just horrible gameplay.
Even if you have detection with your army this is true because detection usually moves along a different path or is faster or slower than your army. So what can happen out on the map or close to your opponents base is that your detection gets killed by the mines and you need to go back home and camp or your army and detection are not close enough together (different movement speed or path) and a lot of units get killed or you encounter a mine field with detection and you can only push into it with very few units extremely slowly to avoid losing many units but if retreats mines slowly this slowpush can take ages. Fact is that you have better things to do than to invest all your time into killing a few mines so its better to stay home and camp.
Entomb seems too powerful early game already. I think it should be removed because it is incredibly annoying, yet they are buffing it? I'm speaking as a Z in ZvP.
It simply costs way too much in defenses to protect against them early game. The spore without evo chamber helps this a little. How it works now, if you scout it perfectly you can make enough defenses to hold it off, but you've likely spent at least as much as the P to make a stargate.
I still see no way of preventing falling behind. If you scout a stargate, assume entomb is coming, build at least one spore at main and expansion and have queen on patrol, you won't kill oracle and you will lose tons of mining time. Does anyone know how many minerals exactly are lost if someone puts their drones back on minerals exactly when the free up?
Now you can add a spine crawler or two at each mineral patch to help with the entomb shells, but it still takes a long time. Do the emtomb shells have armor because it should be removed to make drones microing on them to attack more effective.
Yeah entomb is super OP. The only thing I could see working is rushing muta at a similar cost as a stargate but you have to tech to lair extremely quickly - basically means a one-base opening which also puts you behind.
I do agree that the Widow Mines needs to be nerfed or removed and give Terran an actual unit and not some gimmicky crap.
What? Widow Mines so far are by far the best unit in the expansion in terms of being designed really well without borrowing ideas from other units.
I sincerely hope that you are trolling.
Widow mines are amazing. It creates a lot of positional play and makes TvX an interesting dynamism
No it doesn't. It makes Bio TvT completely obsolete.
No, it just means A-move across the map with your MMM is obsolete. It takes between 3-5 scans to move across most maps. Then secure your attack paths with widow mines of your own.
The revelation change and the purify change are to give protoss earlier means to deal with widow mine. It's the same logic with the spore change. Of course, revelation with detection is great, but it can't deal with the new threat of the early widow mine. You can't give purify detection while keeping revelation the same. That will give protoss too many means of detection. So it's a hard decision that you must give one thing detection but cut the detection of the other unit. The change doesn't look simplistic but it gets the job done.
But the hallucination change is stupid. Now protoss has more ways to do blink timing. You can keep your mothership core at home for defense (it detects clock as well), while using hallucination pheonix to give high ground vision. Before this patch, at least you have to bring the mothership core with your stalker to do blink timing. Now doing blink timing is safe and more effective with hallucination pheonix. Sincerely hope they revert this change.
Yea I say bring back hallucination research for sure, make it cheaper if its absolutely necessary but don't make it free, then toss has guaranteed scouting every game no matter what
Half of these changes were because you terrans wanted to keep the that broken widow mine so YOU'RE really to blame for the spore/hallucination changes. Just saying.
I do agree that the Widow Mines needs to be nerfed or removed and give Terran an actual unit and not some gimmicky crap.
What? Widow Mines so far are by far the best unit in the expansion in terms of being designed really well without borrowing ideas from other units.
I sincerely hope that you are trolling.
Widow mines are amazing. It creates a lot of positional play and makes TvX an interesting dynamism
No it doesn't. It makes Bio TvT completely obsolete.
No, it just means A-move across the map with your MMM is obsolete. It takes between 3-5 scans to move across most maps. Then secure your attack paths with widow mines of your own.
There, not obsolete again.
I don't know what kind of maps you play to have 3-5 scans cover base distances. Ravens are very expensive and come out relatively late. Mines shuts down drops too which is a big part of playing bio. Simply put, Widow Mines take away mobility which is the sole advantage of MMM.
Also if you need Widow Mines to secure attack paths then there is no point in going bio because you are splitting resources into 2 tech paths. You will be better off just going straight mech.
On October 14 2012 15:14 larse wrote: Why you people just don't get it?
The revelation change and the purify change are to give protoss earlier means to deal with widow mine. It's the same logic with the spore change. Of course, revelation with detection is great, but it can't deal with the new threat of the early widow mine. You can't give purify detection while keeping revelation the same. That will give protoss too many means of detection. So it's a hard decision that you must give one thing detection but cut the detection of the other unit. The change doesn't look simplistic but it gets the job done.
Okay, so how are you going to deal with Widow mines as you move across the map? How do you deal with Swarm Hosts? Proxy Nexus all the way to your opponent's base? Oh wait, that's right, you just have to go Observers like ALWAYS. Revelation gave me some faint hope that Robo would not remain all-powerful, that we may see Stargate openers, but now...
On October 14 2012 15:14 larse wrote: Why you people just don't get it?
The revelation change and the purify change are to give protoss earlier means to deal with widow mine. It's the same logic with the spore change. Of course, revelation with detection is great, but it can't deal with the new threat of the early widow mine. You can't give purify detection while keeping revelation the same. That will give protoss too many means of detection. So it's a hard decision that you must give one thing detection but cut the detection of the other unit. The change doesn't look simplistic but it gets the job done.
Okay, so how are you going to deal with Widow mines as you move across the map? How do you deal with Swarm Hosts? Proxy Nexus all the way to your opponent's base? Oh wait, that's right, you just have to go Observers like ALWAYS. Revelation gave me some faint hope that Robo would not remain all-powerful, that we may see Stargate openers, but now...
I mean early detection. I didn't talk anything beyond early widow mine aggression.
On October 14 2012 15:14 larse wrote: Why you people just don't get it?
The revelation change and the purify change are to give protoss earlier means to deal with widow mine. It's the same logic with the spore change. Of course, revelation with detection is great, but it can't deal with the new threat of the early widow mine. You can't give purify detection while keeping revelation the same. That will give protoss too many means of detection. So it's a hard decision that you must give one thing detection but cut the detection of the other unit. The change doesn't look simplistic but it gets the job done.
So why is that too many means of detection? Clearly if robo play has observer+purify for detection why cant stargate play have oracle+purify? How is that too much detection?
I do agree that the Widow Mines needs to be nerfed or removed and give Terran an actual unit and not some gimmicky crap.
What? Widow Mines so far are by far the best unit in the expansion in terms of being designed really well without borrowing ideas from other units.
I sincerely hope that you are trolling.
Widow mines are amazing. It creates a lot of positional play and makes TvX an interesting dynamism
No it doesn't. It makes Bio TvT completely obsolete.
No, it just means A-move across the map with your MMM is obsolete. It takes between 3-5 scans to move across most maps. Then secure your attack paths with widow mines of your own.
There, not obsolete again.
I don't know what kind of maps you play to have 3-5 scans cover base distances. Ravens are very expensive and come out relatively late. Mines shuts down drops too which is a big part of playing bio. Simply put, Widow Mines take away mobility which is the sole advantage of MMM.
Also if you need Widow Mines to secure attack paths then there is no point in going bio because you are splitting resources into 2 tech paths. You will be better off just going straight mech.
It's called a macro OC. Widow mines have changed the dynamics of Terran. Deal with it. Marauders are range 6.
Now you're just exaggerating. Placing two widow mines near or around the place you wish to drop is total of 300 min, 100 gas, less than two siege tanks.
On October 14 2012 15:14 larse wrote: Why you people just don't get it?
The revelation change and the purify change are to give protoss earlier means to deal with widow mine. It's the same logic with the spore change. Of course, revelation with detection is great, but it can't deal with the new threat of the early widow mine. You can't give purify detection while keeping revelation the same. That will give protoss too many means of detection. So it's a hard decision that you must give one thing detection but cut the detection of the other unit. The change doesn't look simplistic but it gets the job done.
So why is that too many means of detection? Clearly if robo play has observer+purify for detection why cant stargate play have oracle+purify? How is that too much detection?
If you count the means of detection of each race, u will know why.
I do agree that the Widow Mines needs to be nerfed or removed and give Terran an actual unit and not some gimmicky crap.
What? Widow Mines so far are by far the best unit in the expansion in terms of being designed really well without borrowing ideas from other units.
I sincerely hope that you are trolling.
Widow mines are amazing. It creates a lot of positional play and makes TvX an interesting dynamism
No it doesn't. It makes Bio TvT completely obsolete.
No, it just means A-move across the map with your MMM is obsolete. It takes between 3-5 scans to move across most maps. Then secure your attack paths with widow mines of your own.
There, not obsolete again.
I don't know what kind of maps you play to have 3-5 scans cover base distances. Ravens are very expensive and come out relatively late. Mines shuts down drops too which is a big part of playing bio. Simply put, Widow Mines take away mobility which is the sole advantage of MMM.
Also if you need Widow Mines to secure attack paths then there is no point in going bio because you are splitting resources into 2 tech paths. You will be better off just going straight mech.
It's called a macro OC. Widow mines have changed the dynamics of Terran. Deal with it. Marauders are range 6.
Now you're just exaggerating. Placing two widow mines near or around the place you wish to drop is total of 300 min, 100 gas, less than two siege tanks.
So I have to blow all my energy on scans just so my army doesn't get blown up by something that cost 75 minerals and 25 gas while the opponent can mule all day. Yep, it does change the dynamics.
Marauders are range 6 so what? They still can't do anything if there's no detection which still comes back to blowing scans just to avoid mines. Keep in mind they aren't Banelings either. Banelings die when they explode while mines don't.
What do you mean placing mines at the place I'm going to drop? You aren't making any sense. The mines have to get there somehow and I doubt any good player will allow 2 enemy mines in his or her base.
On October 14 2012 16:59 larse wrote: If you count the means of detection of each race, u will know why.
So Zerg has overseers, toss has observers, terran has raven. These are the only constant mobile detection each of the races have. They all have static defense detection with spores, cannons, turrets. And they all had units that can detect with a mana base ability fungal/scan/revelation. Purify being like a super cannon with additional static defense (non mobile) doesnt add so much detection they needed to remove revelation....
I do agree that the Widow Mines needs to be nerfed or removed and give Terran an actual unit and not some gimmicky crap.
What? Widow Mines so far are by far the best unit in the expansion in terms of being designed really well without borrowing ideas from other units.
I sincerely hope that you are trolling.
Widow mines are amazing. It creates a lot of positional play and makes TvX an interesting dynamism
No it doesn't. It makes Bio TvT completely obsolete.
No, it just means A-move across the map with your MMM is obsolete. It takes between 3-5 scans to move across most maps. Then secure your attack paths with widow mines of your own.
There, not obsolete again.
I don't know what kind of maps you play to have 3-5 scans cover base distances. Ravens are very expensive and come out relatively late. Mines shuts down drops too which is a big part of playing bio. Simply put, Widow Mines take away mobility which is the sole advantage of MMM.
Also if you need Widow Mines to secure attack paths then there is no point in going bio because you are splitting resources into 2 tech paths. You will be better off just going straight mech.
It's called a macro OC. Widow mines have changed the dynamics of Terran. Deal with it. Marauders are range 6.
Now you're just exaggerating. Placing two widow mines near or around the place you wish to drop is total of 300 min, 100 gas, less than two siege tanks.
So I have to blow all my energy on scans just so my army doesn't get blown up by something that cost 75 minerals and 25 gas while the opponent can mule all day. Yep, it does change the dynamics.
Marauders are range 6 so what? They still can't do anything if there's no detection which still comes back to blowing scans just to avoid mines. Keep in mind they aren't Banelings either. Banelings die when they explode while mines don't.
What do you mean placing mines at the place I'm going to drop? You aren't making any sense. The mines have to get there somehow and I doubt any good player will allow 2 enemy mines in his or her base.
No...
You scan the terrain your medivacs will fly past enroute to the LZ (landing zone), then place widow mines two at a time along the route.
This is actually a good thing as it'll catch mid-game vikings trying to stop an incoming drop.
I do agree that the Widow Mines needs to be nerfed or removed and give Terran an actual unit and not some gimmicky crap.
What? Widow Mines so far are by far the best unit in the expansion in terms of being designed really well without borrowing ideas from other units.
I sincerely hope that you are trolling.
Widow mines are amazing. It creates a lot of positional play and makes TvX an interesting dynamism
No it doesn't. It makes Bio TvT completely obsolete.
No, it just means A-move across the map with your MMM is obsolete. It takes between 3-5 scans to move across most maps. Then secure your attack paths with widow mines of your own.
There, not obsolete again.
I don't know what kind of maps you play to have 3-5 scans cover base distances. Ravens are very expensive and come out relatively late. Mines shuts down drops too which is a big part of playing bio. Simply put, Widow Mines take away mobility which is the sole advantage of MMM.
Also if you need Widow Mines to secure attack paths then there is no point in going bio because you are splitting resources into 2 tech paths. You will be better off just going straight mech.
It's called a macro OC. Widow mines have changed the dynamics of Terran. Deal with it. Marauders are range 6.
Now you're just exaggerating. Placing two widow mines near or around the place you wish to drop is total of 300 min, 100 gas, less than two siege tanks.
So I have to blow all my energy on scans just so my army doesn't get blown up by something that cost 75 minerals and 25 gas while the opponent can mule all day. Yep, it does change the dynamics.
Marauders are range 6 so what? They still can't do anything if there's no detection which still comes back to blowing scans just to avoid mines. Keep in mind they aren't Banelings either. Banelings die when they explode while mines don't.
What do you mean placing mines at the place I'm going to drop? You aren't making any sense. The mines have to get there somehow and I doubt any good player will allow 2 enemy mines in his or her base.
No...
You scan the terrain your medivacs will fly past enroute to the LZ (landing zone), then place widow mines two at a time along the route.
This is actually a good thing as it'll catch mid-game vikings trying to stop an incoming drop.
I see what you are misunderstanding now. It doesn't matter if the path to the opponent's base is clear. As long as there are mines AT THE OPPONENT'S base, the drop won't work because the Medivac will get blown up.
On October 14 2012 17:25 habeck wrote: In Order to make one stupid unti effective, they make others inaffective, so lame...
It's called new technology. In other news, Mongolia complains to the UN for their composite bows and arrows to be effective against tanks and fighter planes. "It's not fair we can't hit them."
What? Widow Mines so far are by far the best unit in the expansion in terms of being designed really well without borrowing ideas from other units.
I sincerely hope that you are trolling.
Widow mines are amazing. It creates a lot of positional play and makes TvX an interesting dynamism
No it doesn't. It makes Bio TvT completely obsolete.
No, it just means A-move across the map with your MMM is obsolete. It takes between 3-5 scans to move across most maps. Then secure your attack paths with widow mines of your own.
There, not obsolete again.
I don't know what kind of maps you play to have 3-5 scans cover base distances. Ravens are very expensive and come out relatively late. Mines shuts down drops too which is a big part of playing bio. Simply put, Widow Mines take away mobility which is the sole advantage of MMM.
Also if you need Widow Mines to secure attack paths then there is no point in going bio because you are splitting resources into 2 tech paths. You will be better off just going straight mech.
It's called a macro OC. Widow mines have changed the dynamics of Terran. Deal with it. Marauders are range 6.
Now you're just exaggerating. Placing two widow mines near or around the place you wish to drop is total of 300 min, 100 gas, less than two siege tanks.
So I have to blow all my energy on scans just so my army doesn't get blown up by something that cost 75 minerals and 25 gas while the opponent can mule all day. Yep, it does change the dynamics.
Marauders are range 6 so what? They still can't do anything if there's no detection which still comes back to blowing scans just to avoid mines. Keep in mind they aren't Banelings either. Banelings die when they explode while mines don't.
What do you mean placing mines at the place I'm going to drop? You aren't making any sense. The mines have to get there somehow and I doubt any good player will allow 2 enemy mines in his or her base.
No...
You scan the terrain your medivacs will fly past enroute to the LZ (landing zone), then place widow mines two at a time along the route.
This is actually a good thing as it'll catch mid-game vikings trying to stop an incoming drop.
I see what you are misunderstanding now. It doesn't matter if the path to the opponent's base is clear. As long as there are mines AT THE OPPONENT'S base, the drop won't work because the Medivac will get blown up.
Widow mines are amazing. It creates a lot of positional play and makes TvX an interesting dynamism
No it doesn't. It makes Bio TvT completely obsolete.
No, it just means A-move across the map with your MMM is obsolete. It takes between 3-5 scans to move across most maps. Then secure your attack paths with widow mines of your own.
There, not obsolete again.
I don't know what kind of maps you play to have 3-5 scans cover base distances. Ravens are very expensive and come out relatively late. Mines shuts down drops too which is a big part of playing bio. Simply put, Widow Mines take away mobility which is the sole advantage of MMM.
Also if you need Widow Mines to secure attack paths then there is no point in going bio because you are splitting resources into 2 tech paths. You will be better off just going straight mech.
It's called a macro OC. Widow mines have changed the dynamics of Terran. Deal with it. Marauders are range 6.
Now you're just exaggerating. Placing two widow mines near or around the place you wish to drop is total of 300 min, 100 gas, less than two siege tanks.
So I have to blow all my energy on scans just so my army doesn't get blown up by something that cost 75 minerals and 25 gas while the opponent can mule all day. Yep, it does change the dynamics.
Marauders are range 6 so what? They still can't do anything if there's no detection which still comes back to blowing scans just to avoid mines. Keep in mind they aren't Banelings either. Banelings die when they explode while mines don't.
What do you mean placing mines at the place I'm going to drop? You aren't making any sense. The mines have to get there somehow and I doubt any good player will allow 2 enemy mines in his or her base.
No...
You scan the terrain your medivacs will fly past enroute to the LZ (landing zone), then place widow mines two at a time along the route.
This is actually a good thing as it'll catch mid-game vikings trying to stop an incoming drop.
I see what you are misunderstanding now. It doesn't matter if the path to the opponent's base is clear. As long as there are mines AT THE OPPONENT'S base, the drop won't work because the Medivac will get blown up.
That's what the the money scan / macro OC is for.
I scan and see mines. So what? Still doesn't change the fact that mines shut down drops.
On October 14 2012 13:17 dragonblade369 wrote: [quote]
Widow mines are amazing. It creates a lot of positional play and makes TvX an interesting dynamism
No it doesn't. It makes Bio TvT completely obsolete.
No, it just means A-move across the map with your MMM is obsolete. It takes between 3-5 scans to move across most maps. Then secure your attack paths with widow mines of your own.
There, not obsolete again.
I don't know what kind of maps you play to have 3-5 scans cover base distances. Ravens are very expensive and come out relatively late. Mines shuts down drops too which is a big part of playing bio. Simply put, Widow Mines take away mobility which is the sole advantage of MMM.
Also if you need Widow Mines to secure attack paths then there is no point in going bio because you are splitting resources into 2 tech paths. You will be better off just going straight mech.
It's called a macro OC. Widow mines have changed the dynamics of Terran. Deal with it. Marauders are range 6.
Now you're just exaggerating. Placing two widow mines near or around the place you wish to drop is total of 300 min, 100 gas, less than two siege tanks.
So I have to blow all my energy on scans just so my army doesn't get blown up by something that cost 75 minerals and 25 gas while the opponent can mule all day. Yep, it does change the dynamics.
Marauders are range 6 so what? They still can't do anything if there's no detection which still comes back to blowing scans just to avoid mines. Keep in mind they aren't Banelings either. Banelings die when they explode while mines don't.
What do you mean placing mines at the place I'm going to drop? You aren't making any sense. The mines have to get there somehow and I doubt any good player will allow 2 enemy mines in his or her base.
No...
You scan the terrain your medivacs will fly past enroute to the LZ (landing zone), then place widow mines two at a time along the route.
This is actually a good thing as it'll catch mid-game vikings trying to stop an incoming drop.
I see what you are misunderstanding now. It doesn't matter if the path to the opponent's base is clear. As long as there are mines AT THE OPPONENT'S base, the drop won't work because the Medivac will get blown up.
That's what the the money scan / macro OC is for.
I scan and see mines. So what? Still doesn't change the fact that mines shut down drops.
Would need a banshee then. :-/ Good for pointing that out.
I'm guessing then, that rax > expand > banshee harass into drops would then become the norm for TvT bio. Yes, it'll delay.
No it doesn't. It makes Bio TvT completely obsolete.
No, it just means A-move across the map with your MMM is obsolete. It takes between 3-5 scans to move across most maps. Then secure your attack paths with widow mines of your own.
There, not obsolete again.
I don't know what kind of maps you play to have 3-5 scans cover base distances. Ravens are very expensive and come out relatively late. Mines shuts down drops too which is a big part of playing bio. Simply put, Widow Mines take away mobility which is the sole advantage of MMM.
Also if you need Widow Mines to secure attack paths then there is no point in going bio because you are splitting resources into 2 tech paths. You will be better off just going straight mech.
It's called a macro OC. Widow mines have changed the dynamics of Terran. Deal with it. Marauders are range 6.
Now you're just exaggerating. Placing two widow mines near or around the place you wish to drop is total of 300 min, 100 gas, less than two siege tanks.
So I have to blow all my energy on scans just so my army doesn't get blown up by something that cost 75 minerals and 25 gas while the opponent can mule all day. Yep, it does change the dynamics.
Marauders are range 6 so what? They still can't do anything if there's no detection which still comes back to blowing scans just to avoid mines. Keep in mind they aren't Banelings either. Banelings die when they explode while mines don't.
What do you mean placing mines at the place I'm going to drop? You aren't making any sense. The mines have to get there somehow and I doubt any good player will allow 2 enemy mines in his or her base.
No...
You scan the terrain your medivacs will fly past enroute to the LZ (landing zone), then place widow mines two at a time along the route.
This is actually a good thing as it'll catch mid-game vikings trying to stop an incoming drop.
I see what you are misunderstanding now. It doesn't matter if the path to the opponent's base is clear. As long as there are mines AT THE OPPONENT'S base, the drop won't work because the Medivac will get blown up.
That's what the the money scan / macro OC is for.
I scan and see mines. So what? Still doesn't change the fact that mines shut down drops.
Would need a banshee then. :-/ Good for pointing that out.
I'm guessing then, that rax > expand > banshee harass into drops would then become the norm for TvT bio. Yes, it'll delay.
Dude... wtf? Watch a Hots stream before sprouting crap. Bio in TvT is completely dead due to widow mines.... That is a fact not a theory.
No it doesn't. It makes Bio TvT completely obsolete.
No, it just means A-move across the map with your MMM is obsolete. It takes between 3-5 scans to move across most maps. Then secure your attack paths with widow mines of your own.
There, not obsolete again.
I don't know what kind of maps you play to have 3-5 scans cover base distances. Ravens are very expensive and come out relatively late. Mines shuts down drops too which is a big part of playing bio. Simply put, Widow Mines take away mobility which is the sole advantage of MMM.
Also if you need Widow Mines to secure attack paths then there is no point in going bio because you are splitting resources into 2 tech paths. You will be better off just going straight mech.
It's called a macro OC. Widow mines have changed the dynamics of Terran. Deal with it. Marauders are range 6.
Now you're just exaggerating. Placing two widow mines near or around the place you wish to drop is total of 300 min, 100 gas, less than two siege tanks.
So I have to blow all my energy on scans just so my army doesn't get blown up by something that cost 75 minerals and 25 gas while the opponent can mule all day. Yep, it does change the dynamics.
Marauders are range 6 so what? They still can't do anything if there's no detection which still comes back to blowing scans just to avoid mines. Keep in mind they aren't Banelings either. Banelings die when they explode while mines don't.
What do you mean placing mines at the place I'm going to drop? You aren't making any sense. The mines have to get there somehow and I doubt any good player will allow 2 enemy mines in his or her base.
No...
You scan the terrain your medivacs will fly past enroute to the LZ (landing zone), then place widow mines two at a time along the route.
This is actually a good thing as it'll catch mid-game vikings trying to stop an incoming drop.
I see what you are misunderstanding now. It doesn't matter if the path to the opponent's base is clear. As long as there are mines AT THE OPPONENT'S base, the drop won't work because the Medivac will get blown up.
That's what the the money scan / macro OC is for.
I scan and see mines. So what? Still doesn't change the fact that mines shut down drops.
Would need a banshee then. :-/ Good for pointing that out.
I'm guessing then, that rax > expand > banshee harass into drops would then become the norm for TvT bio. Yes, it'll delay.
On October 14 2012 13:17 dragonblade369 wrote: [quote]
Widow mines are amazing. It creates a lot of positional play and makes TvX an interesting dynamism
No it doesn't. It makes Bio TvT completely obsolete.
No, it just means A-move across the map with your MMM is obsolete. It takes between 3-5 scans to move across most maps. Then secure your attack paths with widow mines of your own.
There, not obsolete again.
I don't know what kind of maps you play to have 3-5 scans cover base distances. Ravens are very expensive and come out relatively late. Mines shuts down drops too which is a big part of playing bio. Simply put, Widow Mines take away mobility which is the sole advantage of MMM.
Also if you need Widow Mines to secure attack paths then there is no point in going bio because you are splitting resources into 2 tech paths. You will be better off just going straight mech.
It's called a macro OC. Widow mines have changed the dynamics of Terran. Deal with it. Marauders are range 6.
Now you're just exaggerating. Placing two widow mines near or around the place you wish to drop is total of 300 min, 100 gas, less than two siege tanks.
So I have to blow all my energy on scans just so my army doesn't get blown up by something that cost 75 minerals and 25 gas while the opponent can mule all day. Yep, it does change the dynamics.
Marauders are range 6 so what? They still can't do anything if there's no detection which still comes back to blowing scans just to avoid mines. Keep in mind they aren't Banelings either. Banelings die when they explode while mines don't.
What do you mean placing mines at the place I'm going to drop? You aren't making any sense. The mines have to get there somehow and I doubt any good player will allow 2 enemy mines in his or her base.
No...
You scan the terrain your medivacs will fly past enroute to the LZ (landing zone), then place widow mines two at a time along the route.
This is actually a good thing as it'll catch mid-game vikings trying to stop an incoming drop.
I see what you are misunderstanding now. It doesn't matter if the path to the opponent's base is clear. As long as there are mines AT THE OPPONENT'S base, the drop won't work because the Medivac will get blown up.
That's what the the money scan / macro OC is for.
I scan and see mines. So what? Still doesn't change the fact that mines shut down drops.
On October 14 2012 15:01 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: [quote]
No, it just means A-move across the map with your MMM is obsolete. It takes between 3-5 scans to move across most maps. Then secure your attack paths with widow mines of your own.
There, not obsolete again.
I don't know what kind of maps you play to have 3-5 scans cover base distances. Ravens are very expensive and come out relatively late. Mines shuts down drops too which is a big part of playing bio. Simply put, Widow Mines take away mobility which is the sole advantage of MMM.
Also if you need Widow Mines to secure attack paths then there is no point in going bio because you are splitting resources into 2 tech paths. You will be better off just going straight mech.
It's called a macro OC. Widow mines have changed the dynamics of Terran. Deal with it. Marauders are range 6.
Now you're just exaggerating. Placing two widow mines near or around the place you wish to drop is total of 300 min, 100 gas, less than two siege tanks.
So I have to blow all my energy on scans just so my army doesn't get blown up by something that cost 75 minerals and 25 gas while the opponent can mule all day. Yep, it does change the dynamics.
Marauders are range 6 so what? They still can't do anything if there's no detection which still comes back to blowing scans just to avoid mines. Keep in mind they aren't Banelings either. Banelings die when they explode while mines don't.
What do you mean placing mines at the place I'm going to drop? You aren't making any sense. The mines have to get there somehow and I doubt any good player will allow 2 enemy mines in his or her base.
No...
You scan the terrain your medivacs will fly past enroute to the LZ (landing zone), then place widow mines two at a time along the route.
This is actually a good thing as it'll catch mid-game vikings trying to stop an incoming drop.
I see what you are misunderstanding now. It doesn't matter if the path to the opponent's base is clear. As long as there are mines AT THE OPPONENT'S base, the drop won't work because the Medivac will get blown up.
That's what the the money scan / macro OC is for.
I scan and see mines. So what? Still doesn't change the fact that mines shut down drops.
Would need a banshee then. :-/ Good for pointing that out.
I'm guessing then, that rax > expand > banshee harass into drops would then become the norm for TvT bio. Yes, it'll delay.
Dude... wtf? Watch a Hots stream before sprouting crap. Bio in TvT is completely dead due to widow mines.... That is a fact not a theory.
I don't see many Terrans on Morrow's stream, mostly TvZ or TvP. When he does go TvT bio, he's usually got most of his macro OCs up already!
@to much detection: note that toss also is the only race that doesnt have detection along their "main" techtree. i also fail to see how "many detection abilities in different tech paths" should ever be a bad thing, as long as you dont want to force them to go one path only in the early mid-game.
@entomb: on paper lingfestor or just some additional lings in the early should suffice. in theory hydras are good against entomb too, but meh, they are hydras.
No it doesn't. It makes Bio TvT completely obsolete.
No, it just means A-move across the map with your MMM is obsolete. It takes between 3-5 scans to move across most maps. Then secure your attack paths with widow mines of your own.
There, not obsolete again.
I don't know what kind of maps you play to have 3-5 scans cover base distances. Ravens are very expensive and come out relatively late. Mines shuts down drops too which is a big part of playing bio. Simply put, Widow Mines take away mobility which is the sole advantage of MMM.
Also if you need Widow Mines to secure attack paths then there is no point in going bio because you are splitting resources into 2 tech paths. You will be better off just going straight mech.
It's called a macro OC. Widow mines have changed the dynamics of Terran. Deal with it. Marauders are range 6.
Now you're just exaggerating. Placing two widow mines near or around the place you wish to drop is total of 300 min, 100 gas, less than two siege tanks.
So I have to blow all my energy on scans just so my army doesn't get blown up by something that cost 75 minerals and 25 gas while the opponent can mule all day. Yep, it does change the dynamics.
Marauders are range 6 so what? They still can't do anything if there's no detection which still comes back to blowing scans just to avoid mines. Keep in mind they aren't Banelings either. Banelings die when they explode while mines don't.
What do you mean placing mines at the place I'm going to drop? You aren't making any sense. The mines have to get there somehow and I doubt any good player will allow 2 enemy mines in his or her base.
No...
You scan the terrain your medivacs will fly past enroute to the LZ (landing zone), then place widow mines two at a time along the route.
This is actually a good thing as it'll catch mid-game vikings trying to stop an incoming drop.
I see what you are misunderstanding now. It doesn't matter if the path to the opponent's base is clear. As long as there are mines AT THE OPPONENT'S base, the drop won't work because the Medivac will get blown up.
That's what the the money scan / macro OC is for.
I scan and see mines. So what? Still doesn't change the fact that mines shut down drops.
Scan then drop a Mule or 2 to detonate the mines?
Mules aren't Banelings. And it's 100 energy on Orbital.
On October 14 2012 15:01 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: [quote]
No, it just means A-move across the map with your MMM is obsolete. It takes between 3-5 scans to move across most maps. Then secure your attack paths with widow mines of your own.
There, not obsolete again.
I don't know what kind of maps you play to have 3-5 scans cover base distances. Ravens are very expensive and come out relatively late. Mines shuts down drops too which is a big part of playing bio. Simply put, Widow Mines take away mobility which is the sole advantage of MMM.
Also if you need Widow Mines to secure attack paths then there is no point in going bio because you are splitting resources into 2 tech paths. You will be better off just going straight mech.
It's called a macro OC. Widow mines have changed the dynamics of Terran. Deal with it. Marauders are range 6.
Now you're just exaggerating. Placing two widow mines near or around the place you wish to drop is total of 300 min, 100 gas, less than two siege tanks.
So I have to blow all my energy on scans just so my army doesn't get blown up by something that cost 75 minerals and 25 gas while the opponent can mule all day. Yep, it does change the dynamics.
Marauders are range 6 so what? They still can't do anything if there's no detection which still comes back to blowing scans just to avoid mines. Keep in mind they aren't Banelings either. Banelings die when they explode while mines don't.
What do you mean placing mines at the place I'm going to drop? You aren't making any sense. The mines have to get there somehow and I doubt any good player will allow 2 enemy mines in his or her base.
No...
You scan the terrain your medivacs will fly past enroute to the LZ (landing zone), then place widow mines two at a time along the route.
This is actually a good thing as it'll catch mid-game vikings trying to stop an incoming drop.
I see what you are misunderstanding now. It doesn't matter if the path to the opponent's base is clear. As long as there are mines AT THE OPPONENT'S base, the drop won't work because the Medivac will get blown up.
That's what the the money scan / macro OC is for.
I scan and see mines. So what? Still doesn't change the fact that mines shut down drops.
Scan then drop a Mule or 2 to detonate the mines?
Mules aren't Banelings. And it's 100 energy on Orbital.
I think that's his point, I've seen zerglings kill widow mines (during cool down), with no problem. Therefore after the MULE is destroyed, you can safely drop ON TOP OF the widow mine.
On October 14 2012 16:09 GARcher wrote: [quote] I don't know what kind of maps you play to have 3-5 scans cover base distances. Ravens are very expensive and come out relatively late. Mines shuts down drops too which is a big part of playing bio. Simply put, Widow Mines take away mobility which is the sole advantage of MMM.
Also if you need Widow Mines to secure attack paths then there is no point in going bio because you are splitting resources into 2 tech paths. You will be better off just going straight mech.
It's called a macro OC. Widow mines have changed the dynamics of Terran. Deal with it. Marauders are range 6.
Now you're just exaggerating. Placing two widow mines near or around the place you wish to drop is total of 300 min, 100 gas, less than two siege tanks.
So I have to blow all my energy on scans just so my army doesn't get blown up by something that cost 75 minerals and 25 gas while the opponent can mule all day. Yep, it does change the dynamics.
Marauders are range 6 so what? They still can't do anything if there's no detection which still comes back to blowing scans just to avoid mines. Keep in mind they aren't Banelings either. Banelings die when they explode while mines don't.
What do you mean placing mines at the place I'm going to drop? You aren't making any sense. The mines have to get there somehow and I doubt any good player will allow 2 enemy mines in his or her base.
No...
You scan the terrain your medivacs will fly past enroute to the LZ (landing zone), then place widow mines two at a time along the route.
This is actually a good thing as it'll catch mid-game vikings trying to stop an incoming drop.
I see what you are misunderstanding now. It doesn't matter if the path to the opponent's base is clear. As long as there are mines AT THE OPPONENT'S base, the drop won't work because the Medivac will get blown up.
That's what the the money scan / macro OC is for.
I scan and see mines. So what? Still doesn't change the fact that mines shut down drops.
Scan then drop a Mule or 2 to detonate the mines?
Mules aren't Banelings. And it's 100 energy on Orbital.
I think that's his point, I've seen zerglings kill widow mines (during cool down), with no problem. Therefore after the MULE is destroyed, you can safely drop ON TOP OF the widow mine.
At which point you HAVE to commit and do damage or else you will be behind. All of that forced by 75 minerals and 25 gas.
Keep in mind that a MULE only trigger 1 mine due to smart AI.
On October 14 2012 15:01 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: [quote]
No, it just means A-move across the map with your MMM is obsolete. It takes between 3-5 scans to move across most maps. Then secure your attack paths with widow mines of your own.
There, not obsolete again.
I don't know what kind of maps you play to have 3-5 scans cover base distances. Ravens are very expensive and come out relatively late. Mines shuts down drops too which is a big part of playing bio. Simply put, Widow Mines take away mobility which is the sole advantage of MMM.
Also if you need Widow Mines to secure attack paths then there is no point in going bio because you are splitting resources into 2 tech paths. You will be better off just going straight mech.
It's called a macro OC. Widow mines have changed the dynamics of Terran. Deal with it. Marauders are range 6.
Now you're just exaggerating. Placing two widow mines near or around the place you wish to drop is total of 300 min, 100 gas, less than two siege tanks.
So I have to blow all my energy on scans just so my army doesn't get blown up by something that cost 75 minerals and 25 gas while the opponent can mule all day. Yep, it does change the dynamics.
Marauders are range 6 so what? They still can't do anything if there's no detection which still comes back to blowing scans just to avoid mines. Keep in mind they aren't Banelings either. Banelings die when they explode while mines don't.
What do you mean placing mines at the place I'm going to drop? You aren't making any sense. The mines have to get there somehow and I doubt any good player will allow 2 enemy mines in his or her base.
No...
You scan the terrain your medivacs will fly past enroute to the LZ (landing zone), then place widow mines two at a time along the route.
This is actually a good thing as it'll catch mid-game vikings trying to stop an incoming drop.
I see what you are misunderstanding now. It doesn't matter if the path to the opponent's base is clear. As long as there are mines AT THE OPPONENT'S base, the drop won't work because the Medivac will get blown up.
That's what the the money scan / macro OC is for.
I scan and see mines. So what? Still doesn't change the fact that mines shut down drops.
Would need a banshee then. :-/ Good for pointing that out.
I'm guessing then, that rax > expand > banshee harass into drops would then become the norm for TvT bio. Yes, it'll delay.
Dude... wtf? Watch a Hots stream before sprouting crap. Bio in TvT is completely dead due to widow mines.... That is a fact not a theory.
I'm glad bio is harder in TvT in HoTS. Mech is so much more exciting and it was so annoying to play against Bio. If you didn't play perfectly you lost, where as the bio player had no issues at all.
On October 14 2012 16:59 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: [quote]
It's called a macro OC. Widow mines have changed the dynamics of Terran. Deal with it. Marauders are range 6.
Now you're just exaggerating. Placing two widow mines near or around the place you wish to drop is total of 300 min, 100 gas, less than two siege tanks.
So I have to blow all my energy on scans just so my army doesn't get blown up by something that cost 75 minerals and 25 gas while the opponent can mule all day. Yep, it does change the dynamics.
Marauders are range 6 so what? They still can't do anything if there's no detection which still comes back to blowing scans just to avoid mines. Keep in mind they aren't Banelings either. Banelings die when they explode while mines don't.
What do you mean placing mines at the place I'm going to drop? You aren't making any sense. The mines have to get there somehow and I doubt any good player will allow 2 enemy mines in his or her base.
No...
You scan the terrain your medivacs will fly past enroute to the LZ (landing zone), then place widow mines two at a time along the route.
This is actually a good thing as it'll catch mid-game vikings trying to stop an incoming drop.
I see what you are misunderstanding now. It doesn't matter if the path to the opponent's base is clear. As long as there are mines AT THE OPPONENT'S base, the drop won't work because the Medivac will get blown up.
That's what the the money scan / macro OC is for.
I scan and see mines. So what? Still doesn't change the fact that mines shut down drops.
Scan then drop a Mule or 2 to detonate the mines?
Mules aren't Banelings. And it's 100 energy on Orbital.
I think that's his point, I've seen zerglings kill widow mines (during cool down), with no problem. Therefore after the MULE is destroyed, you can safely drop ON TOP OF the widow mine.
At which point you HAVE to commit and do damage or else you will be behind. All of that forced by 75 minerals and 25 gas.
Keep in mind that a MULE only trigger 1 mine due to smart AI.
Terrans exploit macro orbitals starting very early in the game now. I don't think it is a problem to be forced to use additional scans and mule drops in order to break into minefields.
If you are sure there will be a mine you don't even need to scan. The medivac provides vision at a range of 11, so you can freely drop mules even if you cant detect them. And if you don't land the mule right on the mine you can path him around the area to make sure its clear or get blown up anyway.
Seriously what are they doing? The Oracle at this point is just dumb. They made Entomb super-strong just so that people will build it? Guess what, it's the most boring harassment unit ever since it just takes two clicks to deny mining for a full minute T_T.
And hallucinations free without a upgrade is just a strange change, lowering the cost/build time would have been more then enough.
And why all these detection changes, because of one unit that you made a tad to strong, maybe nerfing that unit would have been better.
I guess i will have to see how it plays out but.....
On October 14 2012 18:42 DeCoup wrote: If you are sure there will be a mine you don't even need to scan. The medivac provides vision at a range of 11, so you can freely drop mules even if you cant detect them. And if you don't land the mule right on the mine you can path him around the area to make sure its clear or get blown up anyway.
So I have to blow all my energy on scans just so my army doesn't get blown up by something that cost 75 minerals and 25 gas while the opponent can mule all day. Yep, it does change the dynamics.
Marauders are range 6 so what? They still can't do anything if there's no detection which still comes back to blowing scans just to avoid mines. Keep in mind they aren't Banelings either. Banelings die when they explode while mines don't.
What do you mean placing mines at the place I'm going to drop? You aren't making any sense. The mines have to get there somehow and I doubt any good player will allow 2 enemy mines in his or her base.
No...
You scan the terrain your medivacs will fly past enroute to the LZ (landing zone), then place widow mines two at a time along the route.
This is actually a good thing as it'll catch mid-game vikings trying to stop an incoming drop.
I see what you are misunderstanding now. It doesn't matter if the path to the opponent's base is clear. As long as there are mines AT THE OPPONENT'S base, the drop won't work because the Medivac will get blown up.
That's what the the money scan / macro OC is for.
I scan and see mines. So what? Still doesn't change the fact that mines shut down drops.
Scan then drop a Mule or 2 to detonate the mines?
Mules aren't Banelings. And it's 100 energy on Orbital.
I think that's his point, I've seen zerglings kill widow mines (during cool down), with no problem. Therefore after the MULE is destroyed, you can safely drop ON TOP OF the widow mine.
At which point you HAVE to commit and do damage or else you will be behind. All of that forced by 75 minerals and 25 gas.
Keep in mind that a MULE only trigger 1 mine due to smart AI.
Terrans exploit macro orbitals starting very early in the game now. I don't think it is a problem to be forced to use additional scans and mule drops in order to break into minefields.
Bio is VERY mineral heavy. Every scan you use up is a MULE you aren't getting and every Orbital you put up that's not at a non saturated expansion is 11 marines you aren't getting.
The medivac thing is excluding the chance that it will get blown up halfway across the map by hidden mines.
On October 14 2012 17:24 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: [quote]
No...
You scan the terrain your medivacs will fly past enroute to the LZ (landing zone), then place widow mines two at a time along the route.
This is actually a good thing as it'll catch mid-game vikings trying to stop an incoming drop.
I see what you are misunderstanding now. It doesn't matter if the path to the opponent's base is clear. As long as there are mines AT THE OPPONENT'S base, the drop won't work because the Medivac will get blown up.
That's what the the money scan / macro OC is for.
I scan and see mines. So what? Still doesn't change the fact that mines shut down drops.
Scan then drop a Mule or 2 to detonate the mines?
Mules aren't Banelings. And it's 100 energy on Orbital.
I think that's his point, I've seen zerglings kill widow mines (during cool down), with no problem. Therefore after the MULE is destroyed, you can safely drop ON TOP OF the widow mine.
At which point you HAVE to commit and do damage or else you will be behind. All of that forced by 75 minerals and 25 gas.
Keep in mind that a MULE only trigger 1 mine due to smart AI.
Terrans exploit macro orbitals starting very early in the game now. I don't think it is a problem to be forced to use additional scans and mule drops in order to break into minefields.
Bio is VERY mineral heavy. Every scan you use up is a MULE you aren't getting and every Orbital you put up that's not at a non saturated expansion is 11 marines you aren't getting.
The medivac thing is excluding the chance that it will get blown up halfway across the map by hidden mines.
Correct. It's called energy tension. You just have to make sure you make the mule sacrifice worth it.
I see what you are misunderstanding now. It doesn't matter if the path to the opponent's base is clear. As long as there are mines AT THE OPPONENT'S base, the drop won't work because the Medivac will get blown up.
That's what the the money scan / macro OC is for.
I scan and see mines. So what? Still doesn't change the fact that mines shut down drops.
Scan then drop a Mule or 2 to detonate the mines?
Mules aren't Banelings. And it's 100 energy on Orbital.
I think that's his point, I've seen zerglings kill widow mines (during cool down), with no problem. Therefore after the MULE is destroyed, you can safely drop ON TOP OF the widow mine.
At which point you HAVE to commit and do damage or else you will be behind. All of that forced by 75 minerals and 25 gas.
Keep in mind that a MULE only trigger 1 mine due to smart AI.
Terrans exploit macro orbitals starting very early in the game now. I don't think it is a problem to be forced to use additional scans and mule drops in order to break into minefields.
Bio is VERY mineral heavy. Every scan you use up is a MULE you aren't getting and every Orbital you put up that's not at a non saturated expansion is 11 marines you aren't getting.
The medivac thing is excluding the chance that it will get blown up halfway across the map by hidden mines.
Correct. It's called energy tension. You just have to make sure you make the mule sacrifice worth it.
Then we come back to the question: why even go bio? The meching player can force the bio player into having to do much much more with just a few mines. People will just not play bio at all because it's not worth it. Eventually it forces stale matchups like TvP and PvP.
On October 14 2012 18:50 GARcher wrote: Then we come back to the question: why even go bio? The meching player can force the bio player into having to do much much more with just a few mines. People will just not play bio at all because it's not worth it. Eventually it forces stale matchups like TvP and PvP.
Now it just sounds like q_q.
Yes, I agree, 1 medivac/stim-marine drop rush in TvT is dead.
The widow mine has made bio vs. mech metagame level. No longer will a meching Terran be worried having to turn around to hold his base from being destroyed because 2 medivacs full of stimmed marines dropped un-noticed.
A bio player now has to put more planning and care as much as a meching player. Choosing his LZ, checking for mines with a MULE drop and having to make the drop count.
Love the MULE drop idea, because they can't attack, there's no warning for the opponent even if the mine goes off.
Edit: I have seen MorroW successfully switch to bio from marine/widow mine opening when he suspects his opponent going full mech play. He's very good. Puts widow mines between opponent's base and the watch tower then when he sees mech build begin moving out and kill both the widow mine at the entrance and his marine on the watch tower, he drops the main with MMM + banshee + viking.
This is very good play very likely from his past experience as pro- Zerg, where it is NORMAL to maintain vision of enemy movement at all times.
I do agree that the Widow Mines needs to be nerfed or removed and give Terran an actual unit and not some gimmicky crap.
What? Widow Mines so far are by far the best unit in the expansion in terms of being designed really well without borrowing ideas from other units.
I sincerely hope that you are trolling.
Widow mines are amazing. It creates a lot of positional play and makes TvX an interesting dynamism
No it doesn't. It makes Bio TvT completely obsolete.
No, it just means A-move across the map with your MMM is obsolete. It takes between 3-5 scans to move across most maps. Then secure your attack paths with widow mines of your own.
There, not obsolete again.
I don't know what kind of maps you play to have 3-5 scans cover base distances. Ravens are very expensive and come out relatively late. Mines shuts down drops too which is a big part of playing bio. Simply put, Widow Mines take away mobility which is the sole advantage of MMM.
Also if you need Widow Mines to secure attack paths then there is no point in going bio because you are splitting resources into 2 tech paths. You will be better off just going straight mech.
It's called a macro OC. Widow mines have changed the dynamics of Terran. Deal with it. Marauders are range 6.
Now you're just exaggerating. Placing two widow mines near or around the place you wish to drop is total of 300 min, 100 gas, less than two siege tanks.
So I have to blow all my energy on scans just so my army doesn't get blown up by something that cost 75 minerals and 25 gas while the opponent can mule all day. Yep, it does change the dynamics.
Marauders are range 6 so what? They still can't do anything if there's no detection which still comes back to blowing scans just to avoid mines. Keep in mind they aren't Banelings either. Banelings die when they explode while mines don't.
What do you mean placing mines at the place I'm going to drop? You aren't making any sense. The mines have to get there somehow and I doubt any good player will allow 2 enemy mines in his or her base.
That's because Widow mines don't have high dps, aren't extremely mobile, have a set-up time, and have to be stationary to attack. You have to understand the fundamentals of checks and balances before you make posts on this subject.
Yes board-control units require a reaction from the other player; no you can't a-move marines/lings/zealots across the map if board-control is out. No this is not a bad thing, as it creates more strategic decisions from both players. Common sense.
On October 14 2012 18:50 GARcher wrote: Then we come back to the question: why even go bio? The meching player can force the bio player into having to do much much more with just a few mines. People will just not play bio at all because it's not worth it. Eventually it forces stale matchups like TvP and PvP.
Now it just sounds like q_q.
Yes, I agree, 1 medivac/stim-marine drop rush in TvT is dead.
The widow mine has made bio vs. mech metagame level. No longer will a meching Terran be worried having to turn around to hold his base from being destroyed because 2 medivacs full of stimmed marines dropped un-noticed.
A bio player now has to put more planning and care as much as a meching player. Choosing his LZ, checking for mines with a MULE drop and having to make the drop count.
Love the MULE drop idea, because they can't attack, there's no warning for the opponent even if the mine goes off.
Edit: I have seen MorroW successfully switch to bio from marine/widow mine opening when he suspects his opponent going full mech play.
So basically I sound like a QQer to someone who thinks Banshees are going to solve the mine problem if you are playing bio vs mech.
And what? Stimmed Marine Medivac is called a rush now? What maps do you play? Xelnaga caverns?
In no way is the Widow Mine making the match up level. Saying that Bio requires no care is just stupid. Drops is essentially what you have to do against a meching Terran. That's why you need to be aware of the map instead of blindly leapfrogging tanks. What you are suggesting is forcing bio to bumrushing into Siege Tanks.
I do agree that the Widow Mines needs to be nerfed or removed and give Terran an actual unit and not some gimmicky crap.
What? Widow Mines so far are by far the best unit in the expansion in terms of being designed really well without borrowing ideas from other units.
I sincerely hope that you are trolling.
Widow mines are amazing. It creates a lot of positional play and makes TvX an interesting dynamism
No it doesn't. It makes Bio TvT completely obsolete.
No, it just means A-move across the map with your MMM is obsolete. It takes between 3-5 scans to move across most maps. Then secure your attack paths with widow mines of your own.
There, not obsolete again.
I don't know what kind of maps you play to have 3-5 scans cover base distances. Ravens are very expensive and come out relatively late. Mines shuts down drops too which is a big part of playing bio. Simply put, Widow Mines take away mobility which is the sole advantage of MMM.
Also if you need Widow Mines to secure attack paths then there is no point in going bio because you are splitting resources into 2 tech paths. You will be better off just going straight mech.
It's called a macro OC. Widow mines have changed the dynamics of Terran. Deal with it. Marauders are range 6.
Now you're just exaggerating. Placing two widow mines near or around the place you wish to drop is total of 300 min, 100 gas, less than two siege tanks.
So I have to blow all my energy on scans just so my army doesn't get blown up by something that cost 75 minerals and 25 gas while the opponent can mule all day. Yep, it does change the dynamics.
Marauders are range 6 so what? They still can't do anything if there's no detection which still comes back to blowing scans just to avoid mines. Keep in mind they aren't Banelings either. Banelings die when they explode while mines don't.
What do you mean placing mines at the place I'm going to drop? You aren't making any sense. The mines have to get there somehow and I doubt any good player will allow 2 enemy mines in his or her base.
That's because Widow mines don't have high dps, aren't extremely mobile, have a set-up time, and have to be stationary to attack. You have to understand the fundamentals of checks and balances before you make posts on this subject.
Yes board-control units require a reaction from the other player; no you can't a-move marines/lings/zealots across the map if board-control is out. No this is not a bad thing, as it creates more strategic decisions from both players. Common sense.
The low DPS is offset by the fact that the mines are cheap, can be reactored out, does huge single target damage, and has huge splash.
What? Widow Mines so far are by far the best unit in the expansion in terms of being designed really well without borrowing ideas from other units.
I sincerely hope that you are trolling.
Widow mines are amazing. It creates a lot of positional play and makes TvX an interesting dynamism
No it doesn't. It makes Bio TvT completely obsolete.
No, it just means A-move across the map with your MMM is obsolete. It takes between 3-5 scans to move across most maps. Then secure your attack paths with widow mines of your own.
There, not obsolete again.
I don't know what kind of maps you play to have 3-5 scans cover base distances. Ravens are very expensive and come out relatively late. Mines shuts down drops too which is a big part of playing bio. Simply put, Widow Mines take away mobility which is the sole advantage of MMM.
Also if you need Widow Mines to secure attack paths then there is no point in going bio because you are splitting resources into 2 tech paths. You will be better off just going straight mech.
It's called a macro OC. Widow mines have changed the dynamics of Terran. Deal with it. Marauders are range 6.
Now you're just exaggerating. Placing two widow mines near or around the place you wish to drop is total of 300 min, 100 gas, less than two siege tanks.
So I have to blow all my energy on scans just so my army doesn't get blown up by something that cost 75 minerals and 25 gas while the opponent can mule all day. Yep, it does change the dynamics.
Marauders are range 6 so what? They still can't do anything if there's no detection which still comes back to blowing scans just to avoid mines. Keep in mind they aren't Banelings either. Banelings die when they explode while mines don't.
What do you mean placing mines at the place I'm going to drop? You aren't making any sense. The mines have to get there somehow and I doubt any good player will allow 2 enemy mines in his or her base.
That's because Widow mines don't have high dps, aren't extremely mobile, have a set-up time, and have to be stationary to attack. You have to understand the fundamentals of checks and balances before you make posts on this subject.
Yes board-control units require a reaction from the other player; no you can't a-move marines/lings/zealots across the map if board-control is out. No this is not a bad thing, as it creates more strategic decisions from both players. Common sense.
The low DPS is offset by the fact that the mines are cheap, can be reactored out, does huge single target damage, and has huge splash.
150 min and 50 gas, 2 supply for two widow mines that do 160 dmg and 40 splash every FORTY SECONDS. Do you know what buildings finish under 40 seconds?
On October 14 2012 21:49 Apolo wrote: Who were thinks entomb is fun to use / to go aggainst ? I don't understand why Blizzard hasn't scrapped that ability yet. For me it's boring as heck.
At the present strength it is does inflict significant damage enough to consider it a threat. 1 min is extremely long.
bleh i feel they are only moving away further and further from getting a good game.
Widow mine was too strong early on thus they enable detection for P and Z earlier.. That is a TERRIBLE way to go about things.. DT and banshees against protoss are pretty much useless now since practically free detection around your nexus is all that you need.. Plus protoss has free scouting with hallucinate now and still the great scouting options of oracle and observer.. I don't like losing to some all-ins you couldn't see but getting virtually free scouting from the midgame onwards is stupid.. New spot for the tempest is cool and I like the change even though it may cause some problems. It gives P quick access to a siege weapon which could provide some really cool gameplay, perhaps make it even able to punish walloffs and the like. It's very likely it will be broken at some maps though at first just because it's too easy to secure vision, proxy stargate with oracle + tempests or just tempests while streaming hallucinated phoenix from home seems an easy way to harass at first. Especially zerg with no access to air easily might have problems with this.
If they continue this path with balancing scouting/detection around some of the terran options they need to at least buff the other invisible units. DT and banshee's are mostly a joke now as widow mines and purify counter them without even having to know really if they went for banshee/dt on time. It's looking now these units will only have a minor role against zerg which doesn't have that good free detection. Right now I rather see zerg detection buffed a bit then but the cloaked units like dt and banshee also buffed so they are cheaper to get, for example merge dark shrine and templar archives into one building and reduce the cost of cloak significantly..
Has anyone tabled the resulting minerals not harvested (lost) from an entomb vs what would be lost if your miners were simply destroyed? Including reproducing the miners? Because after an entomb is done you can go back to full mining as your miners are stll intact.
I'm currently having the most trouble dealing with terrans going hellion/widow mine/banshee in TvZ. I can hold it fine on 2 base but I have no clue how to hold my 3rd against it. I know I probably need better creep spread but damn, that shit is tough, I dunno how I feel about widow mines.
On October 14 2012 15:14 larse wrote: Why you people just don't get it?
The revelation change and the purify change are to give protoss earlier means to deal with widow mine. It's the same logic with the spore change. Of course, revelation with detection is great, but it can't deal with the new threat of the early widow mine. You can't give purify detection while keeping revelation the same. That will give protoss too many means of detection. So it's a hard decision that you must give one thing detection but cut the detection of the other unit. The change doesn't look simplistic but it gets the job done.
But the hallucination change is stupid. Now protoss has more ways to do blink timing. You can keep your mothership core at home for defense (it detects clock as well), while using hallucination pheonix to give high ground vision. Before this patch, at least you have to bring the mothership core with your stalker to do blink timing. Now doing blink timing is safe and more effective with hallucination pheonix. Sincerely hope they revert this change.
It would be a lot easier to not destroy the game because of such an early cloaked unit though, especially one that snipes detectors easily. I would rather they switch the changes back because in real fights, not remotely near your Nexus, Observers die instantly. If they want to see Revelation used, they're going in the wrong direction.
So I'm watching White Ra stream, and I'm really liking the new patch, granted White Ra brings some awesomeness all by himself. Still, I'm loving seeing a viable mech versus protoss and the widow mines no longer look stupid broken. The new tempest seems much better and I like seeing the more viable air play to counter the mech.
Mmmm I'm also liking PvP, White Ra is doing well in holding fast expos, makes me wonder if there is going to be a big metagame shift there. If the tempest works as a reasonable collosus counter, then imo blizzard has fixed PvP's worst issues.
I'm still hoping for voidray and DT changes, but those can happen later. I really don't mind that blizzard is removing some of the "if you don't have detection and they rush cloak its GG" aspect of the game.
I'm a bit worried for zerg's early game, but they are the most control/late game style race anyway.I'm hoping with time they will be able to adapt to the MsC and window mine, if not then I wonder how blizzard can change their early/ early mid game to be better?
On October 15 2012 00:43 DontNerfInfestors wrote: Widow mine still OP
If widow mines adds fun and awesomeness to the game I'm all for them. Don't care about balance in a beta, it WILL be changed. Only care about what the new stuff brings to the game. This is how blizzard should go about when the beta is active: fun gameplay. Worry about balance later.
After playing that patch I feel that zergs are forced to go Spire every single ZvP. Now when the Tempest is tier 2 there is no way to deal with it without Spire. That is pretty dumb if you ask me... Maybe they need to lower the range now when tempest is tier 2.
This patch hit just some hours after I installed the beta. The widow mine is still strong but fragile. I guess the real dificulty people have dealing with it is that you dont need tech to make it, it can be added to any standard terran composition.
I havent't seen good usage of the Tempest yet, everyone just tries to rush to it instead of making it part of the composition after you're at 2 or 3 bases. But even then, I guess it'd be accidentally countered by Vikings.
On October 15 2012 01:37 Pr0wler wrote: After playing that patch I feel that zergs are forced to go Spire every single ZvP. Now when the Tempest is tier 2 there is no way to deal with it without Spire. That is pretty dumb if you ask me... Maybe they need to lower the range now when tempest is tier 2.
I can certainly see your concern. However in it's current form the Tempest takes 7 seconds to kill a worker. At a cost of 300/200 (assuming gas = minerals, silly but the norm) it would have to kill at least 10 workers to pay for it self. The Zerg response can be much the same as if it were a Void Ray rush. Drone up, mass Roach and stomp the Protoss. For it's cost with a DPS less than a single Roach, the Tempest won't be viable until the +massive upgrade.
Frankly, I'm disappointed with Blizzard. After all this time with a company possessing so many resources and talent, I'd expect them to have far more elegant solutions by now. This trial & error approach, while not bad, should have been done years ago with a much more narrow list to test in the HOTS Beta. Heck, even Alpha WOL didn't have this many cuts/additions/reworks.
It's too late for HOTS, but in development of LOTV Blizz should have a "closed Alpha" only for Masters (and up) for a year or two. Here they can try stuff out (with top level feedback and suggestions) and refine the final contenders in an open Beta.
On October 14 2012 17:24 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: [quote]
No...
You scan the terrain your medivacs will fly past enroute to the LZ (landing zone), then place widow mines two at a time along the route.
This is actually a good thing as it'll catch mid-game vikings trying to stop an incoming drop.
I see what you are misunderstanding now. It doesn't matter if the path to the opponent's base is clear. As long as there are mines AT THE OPPONENT'S base, the drop won't work because the Medivac will get blown up.
That's what the the money scan / macro OC is for.
I scan and see mines. So what? Still doesn't change the fact that mines shut down drops.
Scan then drop a Mule or 2 to detonate the mines?
Mules aren't Banelings. And it's 100 energy on Orbital.
I think that's his point, I've seen zerglings kill widow mines (during cool down), with no problem. Therefore after the MULE is destroyed, you can safely drop ON TOP OF the widow mine.
At which point you HAVE to commit and do damage or else you will be behind. All of that forced by 75 minerals and 25 gas.
Keep in mind that a MULE only trigger 1 mine due to smart AI.
Terrans exploit macro orbitals starting very early in the game now. I don't think it is a problem to be forced to use additional scans and mule drops in order to break into minefields.
Bio is VERY mineral heavy. Every scan you use up is a MULE you aren't getting and every Orbital you put up that's not at a non saturated expansion is 11 marines you aren't getting.
The medivac thing is excluding the chance that it will get blown up halfway across the map by hidden mines.
You get a raven and take it with your drops. You should do that anyway for PDD against turrets.
I sort of thought that a clever protoss being able to get useful mid-map detection out of the oracle was a neat use, maybe in response to the Terran Viking-Obs-Snipe-then-cloak-ghosts tactic.
Widow mines are amazing. It creates a lot of positional play and makes TvX an interesting dynamism
No it doesn't. It makes Bio TvT completely obsolete.
No, it just means A-move across the map with your MMM is obsolete. It takes between 3-5 scans to move across most maps. Then secure your attack paths with widow mines of your own.
There, not obsolete again.
I don't know what kind of maps you play to have 3-5 scans cover base distances. Ravens are very expensive and come out relatively late. Mines shuts down drops too which is a big part of playing bio. Simply put, Widow Mines take away mobility which is the sole advantage of MMM.
Also if you need Widow Mines to secure attack paths then there is no point in going bio because you are splitting resources into 2 tech paths. You will be better off just going straight mech.
It's called a macro OC. Widow mines have changed the dynamics of Terran. Deal with it. Marauders are range 6.
Now you're just exaggerating. Placing two widow mines near or around the place you wish to drop is total of 300 min, 100 gas, less than two siege tanks.
So I have to blow all my energy on scans just so my army doesn't get blown up by something that cost 75 minerals and 25 gas while the opponent can mule all day. Yep, it does change the dynamics.
Marauders are range 6 so what? They still can't do anything if there's no detection which still comes back to blowing scans just to avoid mines. Keep in mind they aren't Banelings either. Banelings die when they explode while mines don't.
What do you mean placing mines at the place I'm going to drop? You aren't making any sense. The mines have to get there somehow and I doubt any good player will allow 2 enemy mines in his or her base.
That's because Widow mines don't have high dps, aren't extremely mobile, have a set-up time, and have to be stationary to attack. You have to understand the fundamentals of checks and balances before you make posts on this subject.
Yes board-control units require a reaction from the other player; no you can't a-move marines/lings/zealots across the map if board-control is out. No this is not a bad thing, as it creates more strategic decisions from both players. Common sense.
The low DPS is offset by the fact that the mines are cheap, can be reactored out, does huge single target damage, and has huge splash.
150 min and 50 gas, 2 supply for two widow mines that do 160 dmg and 40 splash every FORTY SECONDS. Do you know what buildings finish under 40 seconds?
I see what you are misunderstanding now. It doesn't matter if the path to the opponent's base is clear. As long as there are mines AT THE OPPONENT'S base, the drop won't work because the Medivac will get blown up.
That's what the the money scan / macro OC is for.
I scan and see mines. So what? Still doesn't change the fact that mines shut down drops.
Scan then drop a Mule or 2 to detonate the mines?
Mules aren't Banelings. And it's 100 energy on Orbital.
I think that's his point, I've seen zerglings kill widow mines (during cool down), with no problem. Therefore after the MULE is destroyed, you can safely drop ON TOP OF the widow mine.
At which point you HAVE to commit and do damage or else you will be behind. All of that forced by 75 minerals and 25 gas.
Keep in mind that a MULE only trigger 1 mine due to smart AI.
Terrans exploit macro orbitals starting very early in the game now. I don't think it is a problem to be forced to use additional scans and mule drops in order to break into minefields.
Bio is VERY mineral heavy. Every scan you use up is a MULE you aren't getting and every Orbital you put up that's not at a non saturated expansion is 11 marines you aren't getting.
The medivac thing is excluding the chance that it will get blown up halfway across the map by hidden mines.
You get a raven and take it with your drops. You should do that anyway for PDD against turrets.
That means you can't even move out until you get a Raven out. Which is at the earliest around 7 minutes. And that leaves you with almost no units.
i strongly concur fwiffo. or we just need to get together a team of our own and rebuild everything frmo the start; make it popular enough that it can't be ignord by making a better game. Blizzard really should be able to do better with all that they have; so i'm guessing it's a problem with their leadership making unsound decisions.
On October 15 2012 01:37 Pr0wler wrote: After playing that patch I feel that zergs are forced to go Spire every single ZvP. Now when the Tempest is tier 2 there is no way to deal with it without Spire. That is pretty dumb if you ask me... Maybe they need to lower the range now when tempest is tier 2.
I can certainly see your concern. However in it's current form the Tempest takes 7 seconds to kill a worker. At a cost of 300/200 (assuming gas = minerals, silly but the norm) it would have to kill at least 10 workers to pay for it self.
I don't know anything about balancing a video game but I do know that 1 worker isn't worth a static 50 minerals. 1 drone = 50 minerals + 1 larva + (rate of mineral gathering * time since worker's death).
On October 15 2012 01:37 Pr0wler wrote: After playing that patch I feel that zergs are forced to go Spire every single ZvP. Now when the Tempest is tier 2 there is no way to deal with it without Spire. That is pretty dumb if you ask me... Maybe they need to lower the range now when tempest is tier 2.
I can certainly see your concern. However in it's current form the Tempest takes 7 seconds to kill a worker. At a cost of 300/200 (assuming gas = minerals, silly but the norm) it would have to kill at least 10 workers to pay for it self.
I don't know anything about balancing a video game but I do know that 1 worker isn't worth a static 50 minerals. 1 drone = 50 minerals + 1 larva + (rate of mineral gathering * time since worker's death).
1 drone = 50 minerals + 1 larva + (rate of mineral gathering * MAX(time since worker's death, time between saturated mining bases and worker's death)) + 1 supply + some apm investment
I like where the game is going, but the tempest should not be able to come out so early. The price is probably good, but the only way to stop early tempest is to rush air tech, and to see that every PvX game would be lame.
On October 15 2012 07:20 happyness wrote: I like where the game is going, but the tempest should not be able to come out so early. The price is probably good, but the only way to stop early tempest is to rush air tech, and to see that every PvX game would be lame.
the upgrade needs to include a range increase but starts with low range....like tempest starts with 7 range then upgrade gives bonus to massive plus 8 range
I like the fact that Blizzard is willing to try a lot of different things ,OP or not, during the beta phase. It is good for them to see how far they can push builds so that they get a lot of different options to choose from. Then they can go with what they feel was the best option for the different units closer to the end of beta. Now is the time to be crazy and creative!
When it comes to balance I am wondering, a while back I saw an interview with Incontrol where he mentioned a trend with HotS that at least he thought (I might have misunderstood, but it is how I remember it anyway) the Terran army was getting a little more a-move units compared to the other two races simply because as of now Terran is the most micro intensive. Sort of a way to make the three races more alike in that sense. I am wondering, now with the Warhound gone and a lot of different changes to the other races' units, is this still true (I guess this is a stupid question since I am sure a lot of people don't even agree with the initial thought, but I will ask anyway)?
Also, as of now how many new units are the different races getting? Is it the same for all of them?
On October 15 2012 07:20 happyness wrote: I like where the game is going, but the tempest should not be able to come out so early. The price is probably good, but the only way to stop early tempest is to rush air tech, and to see that every PvX game would be lame.
if there is a response to protoss rushing tempest where zerg wins or put the protoss player behind, there will be no tempests rush. why would protoss want to force spire?, just because protoss players can, it does not mean they will...
Just put actual firebats back in the game, Jesus Christ. They do all this work to create the same unit from SC1. Healing of the "hellbat" is stupid as well, just put science vessel back in and let it heal mech with an upgrade for nano receptors or something.
On October 14 2012 17:24 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: [quote]
No...
You scan the terrain your medivacs will fly past enroute to the LZ (landing zone), then place widow mines two at a time along the route.
This is actually a good thing as it'll catch mid-game vikings trying to stop an incoming drop.
I see what you are misunderstanding now. It doesn't matter if the path to the opponent's base is clear. As long as there are mines AT THE OPPONENT'S base, the drop won't work because the Medivac will get blown up.
That's what the the money scan / macro OC is for.
I scan and see mines. So what? Still doesn't change the fact that mines shut down drops.
Scan then drop a Mule or 2 to detonate the mines?
Mules aren't Banelings. And it's 100 energy on Orbital.
I think that's his point, I've seen zerglings kill widow mines (during cool down), with no problem. Therefore after the MULE is destroyed, you can safely drop ON TOP OF the widow mine.
At which point you HAVE to commit and do damage or else you will be behind. All of that forced by 75 minerals and 25 gas.
Keep in mind that a MULE only trigger 1 mine due to smart AI.
Terrans exploit macro orbitals starting very early in the game now. I don't think it is a problem to be forced to use additional scans and mule drops in order to break into minefields.
Bio is VERY mineral heavy. Every scan you use up is a MULE you aren't getting and every Orbital you put up that's not at a non saturated expansion is 11 marines you aren't getting.
The medivac thing is excluding the chance that it will get blown up halfway across the map by hidden mines.
yes every scan you use up is a mule you don't have. every orbital you put up is 11 marines you don't have. every interceptor you make is half a probe you don't have. every roach you build is a hydra and a ling you don't have. every overlord you build is a spine crawler you don't have. every observer you make is a sentry that would have had 4 forcefields you now don't have.
this logic is stupid. the whole point of the game is decision making. so obnoxious how people do this.
I can't see how 2 stargate tempest into phoenix can be dealt with by zerg. it's the same as the VR into phoenix harass except the tempest outranges the spore and the queens.
Sheesh, some of you seem to think Blizzard cannot design games and doesn't know what they are doing.
They have a track record of success with several games, and made the game you currently play and are dedicated enough to complain about how "they are ruining it!"
Also it seems like they are darned if they do, darned if they don't. If they kept the design and balance of new units totally in house, they would get criticized for not asking for and listening to player opinion. By asking for player opinion, and making their decisions public and listening to players, they "have" to please every level of player. It is lose-lose.
On October 14 2012 00:22 Rukis wrote: You people bitch and groan about updates but most of you dont even have a beta key... especially the polls its annoying to see all thumbs down, have even given a try for a week?
You don't need a beta key to acquire the ability to read.
Reading and Playing are very two different things. You have no idea how it would play out without having a beta key.
The biggest problem with the tempest in ZvP is that it is "massive". That means corrupter kill it easy. So going "mass tempest" doesnt work out very well as the zerg goes mass corrupter and wins easy. Maybe thats a problem with zerg air, it only has mutas and corruptors that can do Air to Air attacks. As mutas get owned by phoenix... that leaves zerg with just corrupter. I know corrupter is an air-to-air only unit, and as such should be more powerful then an air to air/ground unit like the tempest, but still. There isnt anything that toss can really do to "win" air superiority even with equal resources spent, corrupter just kills it all as soon as the zerg realizes your going pure air. The only reason you can really go phoenixes is they are so fast they can just avoid the corruptors and not fight them, they cant win a straight up fight in equal resources. If its Tempest or carriers or phoenixes or void rays for the zerg its just build corruptors and win back air superiority.
So I am thinking changing it to be more like: pheonix>muta>void ray>corruptors >Carrier/Tempest>infesters>phoenix. infesters might fit the role of being "anti phoenix" even if they are not an air unit because of fungal and IT. But you still need a unit that kill corruptors but loses to muta. Currently there isnt such a unit. Voidrays should be that unit, but it doesnt work out so well. Right now voidrays tend to be a "very" late game unit. Because of how the Prismatic Beams charging up work it makes it really powerful if you got a LOT of them, but that also means for balance they are really weak if you dont have a lot of them. (PS. they are also used to keep a zerg from taking a quick 3rd or killing it if they do, but thats really because its before corruptors/muta are out). They do poorly against corruptors and muta in numbers less then 20 (although decent at cutting down broodlords quickly, any air unit can kill them). A better remake of the voidray would make them good against corrupters, bad against mutas. First thing I would do is cut the +20% to massive, let the tempest take that role. And then I would buff the dmg from 6+4 vs armored / 8+8 vs armored, to 6+6 vs armored / 8+8 vs armored. This would keep the voidray as is for non-armored units like muta, would decrease their effectiveness against carriers/tempests/BCs but would make the voidray better at killing corruptors/vikings. Maybe a slight speed bump in voidray as well would be good (so they can keep up and kill the corrupters/vikings). Then if you want to counter the void rays in the air (as marine/hydra would be just as effective), get some BC's or carriers (the voidrays would be almost 20% worse against them then they are now), but then the toss could get tempests to kill that. That still might not make muta good enough against the voidray (or the void ray good enough against the corrupters), you might need to get rid of prismatic beams (which really seem to be an anti-large unit/anti-building kind of ability), and instead just have like a 6+8 vs armored all the time.
You might need to reduce pheonix dps a little bit (but buff their hp), so that muta can stick around a little longer in a direct fight.
On October 15 2012 10:28 mcdrewbie wrote: Sheesh, some of you seem to think Blizzard cannot design games and doesn't know what they are doing.
They have a track record of success with several games, and made the game you currently play and are dedicated enough to complain about how "they are ruining it!"
Also it seems like they are darned if they do, darned if they don't. If they kept the design and balance of new units totally in house, they would get criticized for not asking for and listening to player opinion. By asking for player opinion, and making their decisions public and listening to players, they "have" to please every level of player. It is lose-lose.
No, they change something, people give feedback which ranges from 'this is great!' to 'omfg, this is so bad'. They sift through that and compare it with their own analysis and make a decision on what to do.
Their 'track record' isn't in question. They make fantastic games. However some of the units / ideas for this beta have been ... how should I put it ... less than stellar?
Take the current widow mine. In it's current interation is bad because it fundamentally fucks air play. Forget everything regarding zone control, rushing, everything else and just look at it from the single perspective of harassing a terran via air.
Even If a terran isn't going mech and someone goes for air harass vs them they can either make some mines 1 at a time out of their factory or they can hotswap a reactor-rax for a reactor-fact and make a few mines per min line and COMPLETELY shut it down for the rest of the game. You can see that at a glance. The ONLY harassing air unit in the game which has more than range 5 is the banshee. Air units clump by design, making them super vulnerable to the mine,which is hidden from view so you can't micro around it, and will 1 shot any flying unit making it pay for it's cost even if you 'poke' with 1 flyer to check for mines. This alone is enough to tell you that this is broken. The entire dynamic of air based harass, drops, blink the whole shebang is just completely nullified.
You don't have to play the beta to see this. It's obvious. The widow mine should never have entered the game in it's current state.
You don't have to play the beta to see this. It's obvious. The widow mine should never have entered the game in it's current state.
-_- to say never is to take away what testing is all about! i love these extremes and there willingness to do anything gives me hope for a fun expansion.
Detection on core and tech-less spore crawlers are really dumb. What's the point of having cloaked units in the game if every race can trivially defend against them from T1?
And yet, at the same time, protoss once again needs a robo to move out. So much for differentiating the tech trees.
On October 15 2012 12:52 Belisarius wrote: Detection on core and tech-less spore crawlers are really dumb. What's the point of having cloaked units in the game if every race can trivially defend against them from T1?
They cant defend against them everywhere, or for each place they do, they pay a cost. It makes expanding a lot harder if you cant get off creep (as spores can only stay on creep), so they can easily slow down that 3rd/4th. And prevent the zerg from attacking while you expand. And then there is the mid/late game where they were already fairly powerful by quickly going into a base with just 1 spore with like 6+ dts and killing the spore quickly and then the hatch and getting out of there.
On October 15 2012 12:52 Belisarius wrote: Detection on core and tech-less spore crawlers are really dumb. What's the point of having cloaked units in the game if every race can trivially defend against them from T1?
They cant defend against them everywhere, or for each place they do, they pay a cost. It makes expanding a lot harder if you cant get off creep (as spores can only stay on creep), so they can easily slow down that 3rd/4th. And prevent the zerg from attacking while you expand. And then there is the mid/late game where they were already fairly powerful by quickly going into a base with just 1 spore with like 6+ dts and killing the spore quickly and then the hatch and getting out of there.
But cloak harass does all that in WoL as well as being able to actually kill things, and yet DTs/cloakshees before lategame are already rare because of the massive tech cost. Free spores and detection on nexi will be pretty much the final nail in the coffin.
If widow mine cheese forced their hand, they should have changed the mine again, not the entire game.
On October 15 2012 12:39 Kharnage wrote:The entire dynamic of air based harass, drops, blink the whole shebang is just completely nullified.
Melodramatic theorycrafting is melodramatic. Mutalisks have a vision range of 11 and a speed of 3.5. Widow Mines have a vision range of 7, an attack range of 5, a speed of 2.8 and a burrow time of 3 seconds.
How in the world is this Widow Mine catching your clump of Mutas unprepared, pray tell? Three seconds is plenty of time to snipe a Mine, if he hasn't been massing them, and you have the sight range to intercept it while it's en route, buying you another 0.5/1 seconds even in the hands of a fast player.
And if you can't snipe it, just fly away. The Muta is faster, it will have at least 6 range's worth of space to see the Widow Mine coming EVEN IF the T positions his Mine precisely 6 range away and somehow knows that you won't move your Mutas 1 range away, making him lose 10 seconds of burrowing and un-burrowing for absolutely no gain. The Muta's power has always been in its ability to be in 10 places at once, and the Widow Mine is by definition immobile. It has to be rooted down to attack.
3/3 Stimmed Marines don't make a base Muta-proof despite their speed, but a handful of unupgradeable, slow, burrowing Widow Mines suddenly will? I'll believe it when I see it.
On October 15 2012 12:39 Kharnage wrote:The entire dynamic of air based harass, drops, blink the whole shebang is just completely nullified.
Melodramatic theorycrafting is melodramatic. Mutalisks have a vision range of 11 and a speed of 3.5. Widow Mines have a vision range of 7, an attack range of 5, a speed of 2.8 and a burrow time of 3 seconds.
How in the world is this Widow Mine catching your clump of Mutas unprepared, pray tell? Three seconds is plenty of time to snipe a Mine, if he hasn't been massing them, and you have the sight range to intercept it while it's en route, buying you another 0.5/1 seconds even in the hands of a fast player.
And if you can't snipe it, just fly away. The Muta is faster, it will have at least 6 range's worth of space to see the Widow Mine coming EVEN IF the T positions his Mine precisely 6 range away and somehow knows that you won't move your Mutas 1 range away, making him lose 10 seconds of burrowing and un-burrowing for absolutely no gain. The Muta's power has always been in its ability to be in 10 places at once, and the Widow Mine is by definition immobile. It has to be rooted down to attack.
3/3 Stimmed Marines don't make a base Muta-proof despite their speed, but a handful of unupgradeable, slow, burrowing Widow Mines suddenly will? I'll believe it when I see it.
...you realize mutas can't see mines when they're burrowed, right?
On October 15 2012 12:39 Kharnage wrote:The entire dynamic of air based harass, drops, blink the whole shebang is just completely nullified.
Melodramatic theorycrafting is melodramatic. Mutalisks have a vision range of 11 and a speed of 3.5. Widow Mines have a vision range of 7, an attack range of 5, a speed of 2.8 and a burrow time of 3 seconds.
How in the world is this Widow Mine catching your clump of Mutas unprepared, pray tell? Three seconds is plenty of time to snipe a Mine, if he hasn't been massing them, and you have the sight range to intercept it while it's en route, buying you another 0.5/1 seconds even in the hands of a fast player.
And if you can't snipe it, just fly away. The Muta is faster, it will have at least 6 range's worth of space to see the Widow Mine coming EVEN IF the T positions his Mine precisely 6 range away and somehow knows that you won't move your Mutas 1 range away, making him lose 10 seconds of burrowing and un-burrowing for absolutely no gain. The Muta's power has always been in its ability to be in 10 places at once, and the Widow Mine is by definition immobile. It has to be rooted down to attack.
3/3 Stimmed Marines don't make a base Muta-proof despite their speed, but a handful of unupgradeable, slow, burrowing Widow Mines suddenly will? I'll believe it when I see it.
...you realize mutas can't see mines when they're burrowed, right?
Thank you Belisarius. I guess not everyone can look at the mine and see how stupidly broken it is...
I'll try with less words.
Mines burrow at terran mineral line. Harass GO BOOM unless they have detection AND greater than range 5.
You don't have to play the beta to see this. It's obvious. The widow mine should never have entered the game in it's current state.
-_- to say never is to take away what testing is all about! i love these extremes and there willingness to do anything gives me hope for a fun expansion.
Honestly, their internal testing should have been enough to rule this out, just like I can rule out the idea of having 'autocast' on fungal. That the idea persists still breaks my mind. If nothing else they MUST change the dynamic vs air units.
On October 15 2012 12:39 Kharnage wrote:The entire dynamic of air based harass, drops, blink the whole shebang is just completely nullified.
Melodramatic theorycrafting is melodramatic. Mutalisks have a vision range of 11 and a speed of 3.5. Widow Mines have a vision range of 7, an attack range of 5, a speed of 2.8 and a burrow time of 3 seconds.
How in the world is this Widow Mine catching your clump of Mutas unprepared, pray tell? Three seconds is plenty of time to snipe a Mine, if he hasn't been massing them, and you have the sight range to intercept it while it's en route, buying you another 0.5/1 seconds even in the hands of a fast player.
And if you can't snipe it, just fly away. The Muta is faster, it will have at least 6 range's worth of space to see the Widow Mine coming EVEN IF the T positions his Mine precisely 6 range away and somehow knows that you won't move your Mutas 1 range away, making him lose 10 seconds of burrowing and un-burrowing for absolutely no gain. The Muta's power has always been in its ability to be in 10 places at once, and the Widow Mine is by definition immobile. It has to be rooted down to attack.
3/3 Stimmed Marines don't make a base Muta-proof despite their speed, but a handful of unupgradeable, slow, burrowing Widow Mines suddenly will? I'll believe it when I see it.
...you realize mutas can't see mines when they're burrowed, right?
Thank you Belisarius. I guess not everyone can look at the mine and see how stupidly broken it is...
I'll try with less words.
Mines burrow at terran mineral line. Harass GO BOOM unless they have detection AND greater than range 5.
You don't have to play the beta to see this. It's obvious. The widow mine should never have entered the game in it's current state.
-_- to say never is to take away what testing is all about! i love these extremes and there willingness to do anything gives me hope for a fun expansion.
Honestly, their internal testing should have been enough to rule this out, just like I can rule out the idea of having 'autocast' on fungal. That the idea persists still breaks my mind. If nothing else they MUST change the dynamic vs air units.
actually....if the zerg knows where its burrowed....sending in 1 mutalisk at right angle can use the mine against the terran as in it has friendly damage
On October 15 2012 12:39 Kharnage wrote:The entire dynamic of air based harass, drops, blink the whole shebang is just completely nullified.
Melodramatic theorycrafting is melodramatic. Mutalisks have a vision range of 11 and a speed of 3.5. Widow Mines have a vision range of 7, an attack range of 5, a speed of 2.8 and a burrow time of 3 seconds.
How in the world is this Widow Mine catching your clump of Mutas unprepared, pray tell? Three seconds is plenty of time to snipe a Mine, if he hasn't been massing them, and you have the sight range to intercept it while it's en route, buying you another 0.5/1 seconds even in the hands of a fast player.
And if you can't snipe it, just fly away. The Muta is faster, it will have at least 6 range's worth of space to see the Widow Mine coming EVEN IF the T positions his Mine precisely 6 range away and somehow knows that you won't move your Mutas 1 range away, making him lose 10 seconds of burrowing and un-burrowing for absolutely no gain. The Muta's power has always been in its ability to be in 10 places at once, and the Widow Mine is by definition immobile. It has to be rooted down to attack.
3/3 Stimmed Marines don't make a base Muta-proof despite their speed, but a handful of unupgradeable, slow, burrowing Widow Mines suddenly will? I'll believe it when I see it.
...you realize mutas can't see mines when they're burrowed, right?
...you realize that before a mine can be any kind of useful, it has to get into attacking range of Mutas, right? And then burrow for three seconds? And then it has to reposition itself once it becomes completely useless because the Mutas aren't worker sniping anymore but depot sniping instead. And again, once the Mutas switch target. And again.
Or if you want to play it 100% safe, keep one Muta within 11 range of the Factory so that you can see where he burrows his mine once it pops out, hoping to catch you unawares with one big boom in some hidden corner. Except you, now knowing where it's burrowed, can safely ignore it.
On October 15 2012 12:39 Kharnage wrote:The entire dynamic of air based harass, drops, blink the whole shebang is just completely nullified.
Melodramatic theorycrafting is melodramatic. Mutalisks have a vision range of 11 and a speed of 3.5. Widow Mines have a vision range of 7, an attack range of 5, a speed of 2.8 and a burrow time of 3 seconds.
How in the world is this Widow Mine catching your clump of Mutas unprepared, pray tell? Three seconds is plenty of time to snipe a Mine, if he hasn't been massing them, and you have the sight range to intercept it while it's en route, buying you another 0.5/1 seconds even in the hands of a fast player.
And if you can't snipe it, just fly away. The Muta is faster, it will have at least 6 range's worth of space to see the Widow Mine coming EVEN IF the T positions his Mine precisely 6 range away and somehow knows that you won't move your Mutas 1 range away, making him lose 10 seconds of burrowing and un-burrowing for absolutely no gain. The Muta's power has always been in its ability to be in 10 places at once, and the Widow Mine is by definition immobile. It has to be rooted down to attack.
3/3 Stimmed Marines don't make a base Muta-proof despite their speed, but a handful of unupgradeable, slow, burrowing Widow Mines suddenly will? I'll believe it when I see it.
...you realize mutas can't see mines when they're burrowed, right?
Thank you Belisarius. I guess not everyone can look at the mine and see how stupidly broken it is...
I'll try with less words.
Mines burrow at terran mineral line. Harass GO BOOM unless they have detection AND greater than range 5.
You're changing the scenario. The scenario, as outlined by you, was that the Terran has no widow mines on the field.
First Widow Mine popping out of a Factory 40 seconds after Muta harassment starts gives the Zerg plenty of opportunities to take it down or avoid it completely without the use of an Overseer, as I've outlined above.
Fine, T might have one in the mineral field, and you can't not snipe his workers (despite the base presenting tons of other valuable targets: add ons, new units, depots). You're COMPELLED to go after the workers. No problem. Bring one Overseer. It'll see the mine well before it can attack either it or the Mutalisks. Use the Overseer to take a shot, it survives with 40 HP, go in with Mutas and snipe the mine. He's out 75/25 and 40 seconds of Factory build, you're exactly where you were in WOL.
Or bring an Overlord, let it tank a shot, and you have 40 seconds to kill his workers. Because it takes the mine 40 seconds to reload. You don't even have to kill it.
On October 15 2012 12:39 Kharnage wrote:The entire dynamic of air based harass, drops, blink the whole shebang is just completely nullified.
Melodramatic theorycrafting is melodramatic. Mutalisks have a vision range of 11 and a speed of 3.5. Widow Mines have a vision range of 7, an attack range of 5, a speed of 2.8 and a burrow time of 3 seconds.
How in the world is this Widow Mine catching your clump of Mutas unprepared, pray tell? Three seconds is plenty of time to snipe a Mine, if he hasn't been massing them, and you have the sight range to intercept it while it's en route, buying you another 0.5/1 seconds even in the hands of a fast player.
And if you can't snipe it, just fly away. The Muta is faster, it will have at least 6 range's worth of space to see the Widow Mine coming EVEN IF the T positions his Mine precisely 6 range away and somehow knows that you won't move your Mutas 1 range away, making him lose 10 seconds of burrowing and un-burrowing for absolutely no gain. The Muta's power has always been in its ability to be in 10 places at once, and the Widow Mine is by definition immobile. It has to be rooted down to attack.
3/3 Stimmed Marines don't make a base Muta-proof despite their speed, but a handful of unupgradeable, slow, burrowing Widow Mines suddenly will? I'll believe it when I see it.
...you realize mutas can't see mines when they're burrowed, right?
...you realize that before a mine can be any kind of useful, it has to get into attacking range of Mutas, right? And then burrow for three seconds? And then it has to reposition itself once it becomes completely useless because the Mutas aren't worker sniping anymore but depot sniping instead. And again, once the Mutas switch target. And again.
Or if you want to play it 100% safe, keep one Muta within 11 range of the Factory so that you can see where he burrows his mine once it pops out, hoping to catch you unawares with one big boom in some hidden corner. Except you, now knowing where it's burrowed, can safely ignore it.
Or bring an Overseer. Gasp.
How seriously stupid are you?
Keep 1 muta within vision of hte factory and 100% of your focus on watching for the widow mine when it burrows? How does he then inject? How doe the muta player take advantage the 'pressure' is intended to create?
Look, stop being a total jackass and think for a moment how a game actually plays out.
Either you scout mutas on route or when they fly into your base and you go into crisis management. Move some marines, run your scv's etc. A few workers die, then the mutas back off for a bit and the zerg player does some actions in their own base such as injects, putting up a 4th base, start some upgrades and a round of drones. Then their focus returns to their muta flock which then returns to harass a min line, or a depot, or whatever they can do without putting the entire flock at risk. The cunning zergy sees some marines covering one place, moves to attack an apparantly vulnerable location and boom, 1 muta dies, half the flock loses 40hp (half health).
The harassment is done. The pressure is done. It's like they just got hit by a storm. In fact, this is a great way to look at it. Think of it as a cloaked HT with a range 5 storm on autocast. How do you harass that base? HOW? HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE HOW STUPID THE FUCKING MINE IS??????
On October 15 2012 12:39 Kharnage wrote:The entire dynamic of air based harass, drops, blink the whole shebang is just completely nullified.
Melodramatic theorycrafting is melodramatic. Mutalisks have a vision range of 11 and a speed of 3.5. Widow Mines have a vision range of 7, an attack range of 5, a speed of 2.8 and a burrow time of 3 seconds.
How in the world is this Widow Mine catching your clump of Mutas unprepared, pray tell? Three seconds is plenty of time to snipe a Mine, if he hasn't been massing them, and you have the sight range to intercept it while it's en route, buying you another 0.5/1 seconds even in the hands of a fast player.
And if you can't snipe it, just fly away. The Muta is faster, it will have at least 6 range's worth of space to see the Widow Mine coming EVEN IF the T positions his Mine precisely 6 range away and somehow knows that you won't move your Mutas 1 range away, making him lose 10 seconds of burrowing and un-burrowing for absolutely no gain. The Muta's power has always been in its ability to be in 10 places at once, and the Widow Mine is by definition immobile. It has to be rooted down to attack.
3/3 Stimmed Marines don't make a base Muta-proof despite their speed, but a handful of unupgradeable, slow, burrowing Widow Mines suddenly will? I'll believe it when I see it.
...you realize mutas can't see mines when they're burrowed, right?
...you realize that before a mine can be any kind of useful, it has to get into attacking range of Mutas, right? And then burrow for three seconds? And then it has to reposition itself once it becomes completely useless because the Mutas aren't worker sniping anymore but depot sniping instead. And again, once the Mutas switch target. And again.
Or if you want to play it 100% safe, keep one Muta within 11 range of the Factory so that you can see where he burrows his mine once it pops out, hoping to catch you unawares with one big boom in some hidden corner. Except you, now knowing where it's burrowed, can safely ignore it.
Or bring an Overseer. Gasp.
How seriously stupid are you?
Keep 1 muta within vision of hte factory and 100% of your focus on watching for the widow mine when it burrows? How does he then inject? How doe the muta player take advantage the 'pressure' is intended to create?
Look, stop being a total jackass and think for a moment how a game actually plays out.
Either you scout mutas on route or when they fly into your base and you go into crisis management. Move some marines, run your scv's etc. A few workers die, then the mutas back off for a bit and the zerg player does some actions in their own base such as injects, putting up a 4th base, start some upgrades and a round of drones. Then their focus returns to their muta flock which then returns to harass a min line, or a depot, or whatever they can do without putting the entire flock at risk. The cunning zergy sees some marines covering one place, moves to attack an apparantly vulnerable location and boom, 1 muta dies, half the flock loses 40hp (half health).
The harassment is done. The pressure is done. It's like they just got hit by a storm. In fact, this is a great way to look at it. Think of it as a cloaked HT with a range 5 storm on autocast. How do you harass that base? HOW? HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE HOW STUPID THE FUCKING MINE IS??????
Gosh. If only Zerg had easy access to a flying detector that could see any burrowed mines from 11 range away AND had enough HP to tank a hit, if it came to it, without dying!
On October 15 2012 12:39 Kharnage wrote:The entire dynamic of air based harass, drops, blink the whole shebang is just completely nullified.
Melodramatic theorycrafting is melodramatic. Mutalisks have a vision range of 11 and a speed of 3.5. Widow Mines have a vision range of 7, an attack range of 5, a speed of 2.8 and a burrow time of 3 seconds.
How in the world is this Widow Mine catching your clump of Mutas unprepared, pray tell? Three seconds is plenty of time to snipe a Mine, if he hasn't been massing them, and you have the sight range to intercept it while it's en route, buying you another 0.5/1 seconds even in the hands of a fast player.
And if you can't snipe it, just fly away. The Muta is faster, it will have at least 6 range's worth of space to see the Widow Mine coming EVEN IF the T positions his Mine precisely 6 range away and somehow knows that you won't move your Mutas 1 range away, making him lose 10 seconds of burrowing and un-burrowing for absolutely no gain. The Muta's power has always been in its ability to be in 10 places at once, and the Widow Mine is by definition immobile. It has to be rooted down to attack.
3/3 Stimmed Marines don't make a base Muta-proof despite their speed, but a handful of unupgradeable, slow, burrowing Widow Mines suddenly will? I'll believe it when I see it.
...you realize mutas can't see mines when they're burrowed, right?
...you realize that before a mine can be any kind of useful, it has to get into attacking range of Mutas, right? And then burrow for three seconds? And then it has to reposition itself once it becomes completely useless because the Mutas aren't worker sniping anymore but depot sniping instead. And again, once the Mutas switch target. And again.
Or if you want to play it 100% safe, keep one Muta within 11 range of the Factory so that you can see where he burrows his mine once it pops out, hoping to catch you unawares with one big boom in some hidden corner. Except you, now knowing where it's burrowed, can safely ignore it.
Or bring an Overseer. Gasp.
How seriously stupid are you?
Keep 1 muta within vision of hte factory and 100% of your focus on watching for the widow mine when it burrows? How does he then inject? How doe the muta player take advantage the 'pressure' is intended to create?
Look, stop being a total jackass and think for a moment how a game actually plays out.
Either you scout mutas on route or when they fly into your base and you go into crisis management. Move some marines, run your scv's etc. A few workers die, then the mutas back off for a bit and the zerg player does some actions in their own base such as injects, putting up a 4th base, start some upgrades and a round of drones. Then their focus returns to their muta flock which then returns to harass a min line, or a depot, or whatever they can do without putting the entire flock at risk. The cunning zergy sees some marines covering one place, moves to attack an apparantly vulnerable location and boom, 1 muta dies, half the flock loses 40hp (half health).
The harassment is done. The pressure is done. It's like they just got hit by a storm. In fact, this is a great way to look at it. Think of it as a cloaked HT with a range 5 storm on autocast. How do you harass that base? HOW? HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE HOW STUPID THE FUCKING MINE IS??????
Gosh. If only Zerg had easy access to a flying detector that could see any burrowed mines from 11 range away AND had enough HP to tank a hit, if it came to it, without dying!
Harassment is all about getting in quickly, doing some damage, and getting out before the other player reacts. Half the time you need to be able to do it BLINDLY while you manage an engagement in the middle of the map or while defending your own fucking base.
You lose a LOT of that window of opportunity if you have to lead with an overseer to 'tank' a mine shot. Don't forget, even if you spot the mine, you can't engage it with range 4 mutas.
Not only that, but all shift queue harass while defending your base is over. You're pushing my front so i queue my warp prism to drop 4 zealots in your mineral line and fly away while all my focus is on FF and warping in units to try and hold the front. Pointless. 1 mine kills WP, no harass. 0 focus required from terran player. Shift queue mutas to attack mineral line while microing ling/bling at the zerg 3rd. Forget that. 1 Mine, mutas dead. At no attention cost to the terran. None. Not even a big investment. 75/25 and no backstab options.
Basically harassing a terran base is much much MUCH harder than before, requiring total focus, with detector units for it to even be viable at minimal cost to the terran.
Hell, watch the Day9 on qxc using mines (daily #511). One of the questions at the end of part 3 is 'Can you see a way for air harass, drops etc to work with the current build of the widow mine?' and his response 'Yeah, it's gonna compeltely shut it down. Yup, don't build air vs terran.'
On October 15 2012 12:39 Kharnage wrote:The entire dynamic of air based harass, drops, blink the whole shebang is just completely nullified.
Melodramatic theorycrafting is melodramatic. Mutalisks have a vision range of 11 and a speed of 3.5. Widow Mines have a vision range of 7, an attack range of 5, a speed of 2.8 and a burrow time of 3 seconds.
How in the world is this Widow Mine catching your clump of Mutas unprepared, pray tell? Three seconds is plenty of time to snipe a Mine, if he hasn't been massing them, and you have the sight range to intercept it while it's en route, buying you another 0.5/1 seconds even in the hands of a fast player.
And if you can't snipe it, just fly away. The Muta is faster, it will have at least 6 range's worth of space to see the Widow Mine coming EVEN IF the T positions his Mine precisely 6 range away and somehow knows that you won't move your Mutas 1 range away, making him lose 10 seconds of burrowing and un-burrowing for absolutely no gain. The Muta's power has always been in its ability to be in 10 places at once, and the Widow Mine is by definition immobile. It has to be rooted down to attack.
3/3 Stimmed Marines don't make a base Muta-proof despite their speed, but a handful of unupgradeable, slow, burrowing Widow Mines suddenly will? I'll believe it when I see it.
...you realize mutas can't see mines when they're burrowed, right?
...you realize that before a mine can be any kind of useful, it has to get into attacking range of Mutas, right? And then burrow for three seconds? And then it has to reposition itself once it becomes completely useless because the Mutas aren't worker sniping anymore but depot sniping instead. And again, once the Mutas switch target. And again.
Or if you want to play it 100% safe, keep one Muta within 11 range of the Factory so that you can see where he burrows his mine once it pops out, hoping to catch you unawares with one big boom in some hidden corner. Except you, now knowing where it's burrowed, can safely ignore it.
Or bring an Overseer. Gasp.
How seriously stupid are you?
Keep 1 muta within vision of hte factory and 100% of your focus on watching for the widow mine when it burrows? How does he then inject? How doe the muta player take advantage the 'pressure' is intended to create?
Look, stop being a total jackass and think for a moment how a game actually plays out.
Either you scout mutas on route or when they fly into your base and you go into crisis management. Move some marines, run your scv's etc. A few workers die, then the mutas back off for a bit and the zerg player does some actions in their own base such as injects, putting up a 4th base, start some upgrades and a round of drones. Then their focus returns to their muta flock which then returns to harass a min line, or a depot, or whatever they can do without putting the entire flock at risk. The cunning zergy sees some marines covering one place, moves to attack an apparantly vulnerable location and boom, 1 muta dies, half the flock loses 40hp (half health).
The harassment is done. The pressure is done. It's like they just got hit by a storm. In fact, this is a great way to look at it. Think of it as a cloaked HT with a range 5 storm on autocast. How do you harass that base? HOW? HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE HOW STUPID THE FUCKING MINE IS??????
Gosh. If only Zerg had easy access to a flying detector that could see any burrowed mines from 11 range away AND had enough HP to tank a hit, if it came to it, without dying!
Harassment is all about getting in quickly, doing some damage, and getting out before the other player reacts. Half the time you need to be able to do it BLINDLY while you manage an engagement in the middle of the map or while defending your own fucking base.
You lose a LOT of that window of opportunity if you have to lead with an overseer to 'tank' a mine shot. Don't forget, even if you spot the mine, you can't engage it with range 4 mutas.
Not only that, but all shift queue harass while defending your base is over. You're pushing my front so i queue my warp prism to drop 4 zealots in your mineral line and fly away while all my focus is on FF and warping in units to try and hold the front. Pointless. 1 mine kills WP, no harass. 0 focus required from terran player. Shift queue mutas to attack mineral line while microing ling/bling at the zerg 3rd. Forget that. 1 Mine, mutas dead. At no attention cost to the terran. None. Not even a big investment. 75/25 and no backstab options.
Basically harassing a terran base is much much MUCH harder than before, requiring total focus, with detector units for it to even be viable at minimal cost to the terran.
This is incredibly hyperbolic and simply factually incorrect.
1 mine cannot kill a Warp Prism. Prism's have a total of 200 HP; they can take a mine hit. Similarly, 1 mine will not 1-hit-kill all of your Mutas. Mines only do 40 AoE damage; they do 160 only to the target. So even if you're stupid and decide to fly into the Terran base with all your Muta's stacked (rather than attempting to spread them), one mine isn't going to kill your stack. It'd take at least three.
So in both cases, 1 mine doesn't make you lose. Furthermore, you can employ micro to avoid this. You can send one Muta in to absorb the mine hit, thus avoiding the splash, then send the rest.
And even if you we assumed that a mine shot insta-killed all Mutalisks, one mine cannot cover an entire mineral patch. Mutas will still be able to pick off workers from the sides. Similarly, there's no way a Terran could completely fortify all possible avenues for a WP to go in. Remember: it takes 40 seconds for them to shoot again.
In conclusion, no: 75/25 does not instantly free the Terrans from harassment. They'll have to spend much more on that.
On October 15 2012 12:39 Kharnage wrote:The entire dynamic of air based harass, drops, blink the whole shebang is just completely nullified.
Melodramatic theorycrafting is melodramatic. Mutalisks have a vision range of 11 and a speed of 3.5. Widow Mines have a vision range of 7, an attack range of 5, a speed of 2.8 and a burrow time of 3 seconds.
How in the world is this Widow Mine catching your clump of Mutas unprepared, pray tell? Three seconds is plenty of time to snipe a Mine, if he hasn't been massing them, and you have the sight range to intercept it while it's en route, buying you another 0.5/1 seconds even in the hands of a fast player.
And if you can't snipe it, just fly away. The Muta is faster, it will have at least 6 range's worth of space to see the Widow Mine coming EVEN IF the T positions his Mine precisely 6 range away and somehow knows that you won't move your Mutas 1 range away, making him lose 10 seconds of burrowing and un-burrowing for absolutely no gain. The Muta's power has always been in its ability to be in 10 places at once, and the Widow Mine is by definition immobile. It has to be rooted down to attack.
3/3 Stimmed Marines don't make a base Muta-proof despite their speed, but a handful of unupgradeable, slow, burrowing Widow Mines suddenly will? I'll believe it when I see it.
...you realize mutas can't see mines when they're burrowed, right?
...you realize that before a mine can be any kind of useful, it has to get into attacking range of Mutas, right? And then burrow for three seconds? And then it has to reposition itself once it becomes completely useless because the Mutas aren't worker sniping anymore but depot sniping instead. And again, once the Mutas switch target. And again.
Or if you want to play it 100% safe, keep one Muta within 11 range of the Factory so that you can see where he burrows his mine once it pops out, hoping to catch you unawares with one big boom in some hidden corner. Except you, now knowing where it's burrowed, can safely ignore it.
Or bring an Overseer. Gasp.
How seriously stupid are you?
Keep 1 muta within vision of hte factory and 100% of your focus on watching for the widow mine when it burrows? How does he then inject? How doe the muta player take advantage the 'pressure' is intended to create?
Look, stop being a total jackass and think for a moment how a game actually plays out.
Either you scout mutas on route or when they fly into your base and you go into crisis management. Move some marines, run your scv's etc. A few workers die, then the mutas back off for a bit and the zerg player does some actions in their own base such as injects, putting up a 4th base, start some upgrades and a round of drones. Then their focus returns to their muta flock which then returns to harass a min line, or a depot, or whatever they can do without putting the entire flock at risk. The cunning zergy sees some marines covering one place, moves to attack an apparantly vulnerable location and boom, 1 muta dies, half the flock loses 40hp (half health).
The harassment is done. The pressure is done. It's like they just got hit by a storm. In fact, this is a great way to look at it. Think of it as a cloaked HT with a range 5 storm on autocast. How do you harass that base? HOW? HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE HOW STUPID THE FUCKING MINE IS??????
Gosh. If only Zerg had easy access to a flying detector that could see any burrowed mines from 11 range away AND had enough HP to tank a hit, if it came to it, without dying!
Harassment is all about getting in quickly, doing some damage, and getting out before the other player reacts. Half the time you need to be able to do it BLINDLY while you manage an engagement in the middle of the map or while defending your own fucking base.
You lose a LOT of that window of opportunity if you have to lead with an overseer to 'tank' a mine shot. Don't forget, even if you spot the mine, you can't engage it with range 4 mutas.
Not only that, but all shift queue harass while defending your base is over. You're pushing my front so i queue my warp prism to drop 4 zealots in your mineral line and fly away while all my focus is on FF and warping in units to try and hold the front. Pointless. 1 mine kills WP, no harass. 0 focus required from terran player. Shift queue mutas to attack mineral line while microing ling/bling at the zerg 3rd. Forget that. 1 Mine, mutas dead. At no attention cost to the terran. None. Not even a big investment. 75/25 and no backstab options.
Basically harassing a terran base is much much MUCH harder than before, requiring total focus, with detector units for it to even be viable at minimal cost to the terran.
This is what pros are capable of. And you're whining about the loss of queue harass? Really? Really? Would it actually surprise you to learn that I'm not the least bit sympathetic to the plight of those who can't order one unit to move ahead of another one?
If Z suspects T has a mine, lead with an Overlord or an Overseer, problem solved. Period. Seriously, any Z will have an Ovie there already for scouting purposes, just push in 5 seconds before you go in with Mutas, soak up the damage, and for forty seconds that mine is useless. And the Ovie isn't even dead.
Your example from beginning to end has "gold league" written all over it. "0 focus required from terran player." The Mine is so easily negated, the T will have to focus on it to get any use out of it, except if his opponent is so stressed out that he can't properly multitask.
I don't know if anyone else remembers this, but I want to remember that David Kim or someone else in Blizz said a couple of months back something in the lines of: "We're keeping the Widow Mine in the game for now, but if it's too difficult to balance we might remove it from the game." ?
On October 15 2012 12:39 Kharnage wrote:The entire dynamic of air based harass, drops, blink the whole shebang is just completely nullified.
Melodramatic theorycrafting is melodramatic. Mutalisks have a vision range of 11 and a speed of 3.5. Widow Mines have a vision range of 7, an attack range of 5, a speed of 2.8 and a burrow time of 3 seconds.
How in the world is this Widow Mine catching your clump of Mutas unprepared, pray tell? Three seconds is plenty of time to snipe a Mine, if he hasn't been massing them, and you have the sight range to intercept it while it's en route, buying you another 0.5/1 seconds even in the hands of a fast player.
And if you can't snipe it, just fly away. The Muta is faster, it will have at least 6 range's worth of space to see the Widow Mine coming EVEN IF the T positions his Mine precisely 6 range away and somehow knows that you won't move your Mutas 1 range away, making him lose 10 seconds of burrowing and un-burrowing for absolutely no gain. The Muta's power has always been in its ability to be in 10 places at once, and the Widow Mine is by definition immobile. It has to be rooted down to attack.
3/3 Stimmed Marines don't make a base Muta-proof despite their speed, but a handful of unupgradeable, slow, burrowing Widow Mines suddenly will? I'll believe it when I see it.
...you realize mutas can't see mines when they're burrowed, right?
...you realize that before a mine can be any kind of useful, it has to get into attacking range of Mutas, right? And then burrow for three seconds? And then it has to reposition itself once it becomes completely useless because the Mutas aren't worker sniping anymore but depot sniping instead. And again, once the Mutas switch target. And again.
Or if you want to play it 100% safe, keep one Muta within 11 range of the Factory so that you can see where he burrows his mine once it pops out, hoping to catch you unawares with one big boom in some hidden corner. Except you, now knowing where it's burrowed, can safely ignore it.
Or bring an Overseer. Gasp.
How seriously stupid are you?
Keep 1 muta within vision of hte factory and 100% of your focus on watching for the widow mine when it burrows? How does he then inject? How doe the muta player take advantage the 'pressure' is intended to create?
Look, stop being a total jackass and think for a moment how a game actually plays out.
Either you scout mutas on route or when they fly into your base and you go into crisis management. Move some marines, run your scv's etc. A few workers die, then the mutas back off for a bit and the zerg player does some actions in their own base such as injects, putting up a 4th base, start some upgrades and a round of drones. Then their focus returns to their muta flock which then returns to harass a min line, or a depot, or whatever they can do without putting the entire flock at risk. The cunning zergy sees some marines covering one place, moves to attack an apparantly vulnerable location and boom, 1 muta dies, half the flock loses 40hp (half health).
The harassment is done. The pressure is done. It's like they just got hit by a storm. In fact, this is a great way to look at it. Think of it as a cloaked HT with a range 5 storm on autocast. How do you harass that base? HOW? HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE HOW STUPID THE FUCKING MINE IS??????
Gosh. If only Zerg had easy access to a flying detector that could see any burrowed mines from 11 range away AND had enough HP to tank a hit, if it came to it, without dying!
Harassment is all about getting in quickly, doing some damage, and getting out before the other player reacts. Half the time you need to be able to do it BLINDLY while you manage an engagement in the middle of the map or while defending your own fucking base.
You lose a LOT of that window of opportunity if you have to lead with an overseer to 'tank' a mine shot. Don't forget, even if you spot the mine, you can't engage it with range 4 mutas.
Not only that, but all shift queue harass while defending your base is over. You're pushing my front so i queue my warp prism to drop 4 zealots in your mineral line and fly away while all my focus is on FF and warping in units to try and hold the front. Pointless. 1 mine kills WP, no harass. 0 focus required from terran player. Shift queue mutas to attack mineral line while microing ling/bling at the zerg 3rd. Forget that. 1 Mine, mutas dead. At no attention cost to the terran. None. Not even a big investment. 75/25 and no backstab options.
Basically harassing a terran base is much much MUCH harder than before, requiring total focus, with detector units for it to even be viable at minimal cost to the terran.
This is what pros are capable of. And you're whining about the loss of queue harass? Really? Really? Would it actually surprise you to learn that I'm not the least bit sympathetic to the plight of those who can't order one unit to move ahead of another one?
If Z suspects T has a mine, lead with an Overlord or an Overseer, problem solved. Period. Seriously, any Z will have an Ovie there already for scouting purposes, just push in 5 seconds before you go in with Mutas, soak up the damage, and for forty seconds that mine is useless. And the Ovie isn't even dead.
Your example from beginning to end has "gold league" written all over it. "0 focus required from terran player." The Mine is so easily negated, the T will have to focus on it to get any use out of it, except if his opponent is so stressed out that he can't properly multitask.
But poor multitasking should be punished.
Truer words have never been spoken. Amen my friend.
I strongly believe Blizzard will keep the mine as it is, design-wise, and they're right to do so.
On October 15 2012 16:32 dynwar7 wrote: Sentry Hallucination no longer requires research
Blinding cloud buffed.
Terran mines take longer.
This is only in Beta and....I guess they are still nerfing Terran..
Yeah right, all those nerfs to widow mines since day1 of the beta:
Balance Update #1-#4: -) Widow mines will no longer damage each other with their splash damage. -) We have removed the Armory requirement. -) Splash damage has increased from 35 to 60. -) The duration of Activate Mine has been decreased to 2 sec. -) Auto-cast can now be turned off in both activated and deactivated modes. Yeah, they were all about making Terran units worse!!!
Then they overhauled that unit - of course to the worse, because who wants burrowed rocket launchers instead of self-suiciding mines!?!?!
And now that. Balance update #6: -) The setup time for this unit has been increased from 2 seconds to 3 seconds.
I mean... another one second, are they mad? When did blizzard ever do something that dramatical to the other races?
How can Protoss use tempest to snipe swarm host with the new revelation that has no detection? The zerg can just park some overseers and corruptors over swarm host, and then there is no way to snipe the swarm host now. The only thing Protoss can do is to a-move your entire army with 2+ observers and hope that you can overrun the composition of swarm host and the other zerg units.
This is a change from a strategic game where you use revelation to highlight swarm host and snipe them with long-range siege weapon, the tempest, to another a-move stupidity. Oh dear Blizzard.
On October 15 2012 17:06 Sissors wrote: Same as before, now kill corrupters first? Either they die, or they retreat and you go kill the swarmhost.
Id say the problem is more that you need both robo and stargate to be able to handle the swarmhosts.. If you have the tempests without observer it aint worth much.. And if you open robo first you will have to put in quite the investment for your first tempests... You are probably better of colossus and gateway units from this position.
Aaaand we are back where stargate only is viable superlategame....
Edit: On a side-note.. feels like protoss is the race that needs something like the new widowmine... but that aint happening unless it comes from the stargate I guess : p..
On October 15 2012 17:06 Sissors wrote: Same as before, now kill corrupters first? Either they die, or they retreat and you go kill the swarmhost.
Id say the problem is more that you need both robo and stargate to be able to handle the swarmhosts.. If you have the tempests without observer it aint worth much.. And if you open robo first you will have to put in quite the investment for your first tempests... You are probably better of colossus and gateway units from this position.
Aaaand we are back where stargate only is viable superlategame....
Edit: On a side-note.. feels like protoss is the race that needs something like the new widowmine... but that aint happening unless it comes from the stargate I guess : p..
Going stargate doesn't forbid you from building a robo in the mid-game. It doesn't cost much even you go skytoss. It's ok. The problem is that without detected revelation, late-game swarm host + detection + air units are another pain in the ass and boring a-move battle between protoss and zerg. The old revelation + tempest was genius to change a lot of things in PvZ late-game. Now it's 50% gone.
Couldn't you just have tempests out on the map sniping stuff, attacking swarm hosts when they move out and force burrows, now that they are T2? Take the MSC with you, and recall if you get attacked by too much antiair...
Man I want to play that beta... All I can do is theorycraft around without having a clue whether this works out timing/ressourcewise
On October 15 2012 12:39 Kharnage wrote:The entire dynamic of air based harass, drops, blink the whole shebang is just completely nullified.
Melodramatic theorycrafting is melodramatic. Mutalisks have a vision range of 11 and a speed of 3.5. Widow Mines have a vision range of 7, an attack range of 5, a speed of 2.8 and a burrow time of 3 seconds.
How in the world is this Widow Mine catching your clump of Mutas unprepared, pray tell? Three seconds is plenty of time to snipe a Mine, if he hasn't been massing them, and you have the sight range to intercept it while it's en route, buying you another 0.5/1 seconds even in the hands of a fast player.
And if you can't snipe it, just fly away. The Muta is faster, it will have at least 6 range's worth of space to see the Widow Mine coming EVEN IF the T positions his Mine precisely 6 range away and somehow knows that you won't move your Mutas 1 range away, making him lose 10 seconds of burrowing and un-burrowing for absolutely no gain. The Muta's power has always been in its ability to be in 10 places at once, and the Widow Mine is by definition immobile. It has to be rooted down to attack.
3/3 Stimmed Marines don't make a base Muta-proof despite their speed, but a handful of unupgradeable, slow, burrowing Widow Mines suddenly will? I'll believe it when I see it.
...you realize mutas can't see mines when they're burrowed, right?
...you realize that before a mine can be any kind of useful, it has to get into attacking range of Mutas, right? And then burrow for three seconds? And then it has to reposition itself once it becomes completely useless because the Mutas aren't worker sniping anymore but depot sniping instead. And again, once the Mutas switch target. And again.
Or if you want to play it 100% safe, keep one Muta within 11 range of the Factory so that you can see where he burrows his mine once it pops out, hoping to catch you unawares with one big boom in some hidden corner. Except you, now knowing where it's burrowed, can safely ignore it.
Or bring an Overseer. Gasp.
How seriously stupid are you?
Keep 1 muta within vision of hte factory and 100% of your focus on watching for the widow mine when it burrows? How does he then inject? How doe the muta player take advantage the 'pressure' is intended to create?
Look, stop being a total jackass and think for a moment how a game actually plays out.
Either you scout mutas on route or when they fly into your base and you go into crisis management. Move some marines, run your scv's etc. A few workers die, then the mutas back off for a bit and the zerg player does some actions in their own base such as injects, putting up a 4th base, start some upgrades and a round of drones. Then their focus returns to their muta flock which then returns to harass a min line, or a depot, or whatever they can do without putting the entire flock at risk. The cunning zergy sees some marines covering one place, moves to attack an apparantly vulnerable location and boom, 1 muta dies, half the flock loses 40hp (half health).
The harassment is done. The pressure is done. It's like they just got hit by a storm. In fact, this is a great way to look at it. Think of it as a cloaked HT with a range 5 storm on autocast. How do you harass that base? HOW? HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE HOW STUPID THE FUCKING MINE IS??????
Gosh. If only Zerg had easy access to a flying detector that could see any burrowed mines from 11 range away AND had enough HP to tank a hit, if it came to it, without dying!
Harassment is all about getting in quickly, doing some damage, and getting out before the other player reacts. Half the time you need to be able to do it BLINDLY while you manage an engagement in the middle of the map or while defending your own fucking base.
You lose a LOT of that window of opportunity if you have to lead with an overseer to 'tank' a mine shot. Don't forget, even if you spot the mine, you can't engage it with range 4 mutas.
Not only that, but all shift queue harass while defending your base is over. You're pushing my front so i queue my warp prism to drop 4 zealots in your mineral line and fly away while all my focus is on FF and warping in units to try and hold the front. Pointless. 1 mine kills WP, no harass. 0 focus required from terran player. Shift queue mutas to attack mineral line while microing ling/bling at the zerg 3rd. Forget that. 1 Mine, mutas dead. At no attention cost to the terran. None. Not even a big investment. 75/25 and no backstab options.
Basically harassing a terran base is much much MUCH harder than before, requiring total focus, with detector units for it to even be viable at minimal cost to the terran.
This is what pros are capable of. And you're whining about the loss of queue harass? Really? Really? Would it actually surprise you to learn that I'm not the least bit sympathetic to the plight of those who can't order one unit to move ahead of another one?
If Z suspects T has a mine, lead with an Overlord or an Overseer, problem solved. Period. Seriously, any Z will have an Ovie there already for scouting purposes, just push in 5 seconds before you go in with Mutas, soak up the damage, and for forty seconds that mine is useless. And the Ovie isn't even dead.
Your example from beginning to end has "gold league" written all over it. "0 focus required from terran player." The Mine is so easily negated, the T will have to focus on it to get any use out of it, except if his opponent is so stressed out that he can't properly multitask.
But poor multitasking should be punished.
Well done, you found a clip from a different game doing something completely different. Well, now i'm convinced.
Fine, 2 mines. they are stupidly cheap in all aspects except supply, which only matter when the terran maxes out.
Basically your argument is that players should be punished for poor multitasking, except terran who have a burrowed baneling with 5 range and auto cast that reloads every 40 seconds. Maybe I'll declare you must be a silver league and therefore your point of view is invalid.
The amount of focus required to get any use out of mines is the same as planting a cannon. Move, burrow. Done. Now all the work is on the other guy. At most the T player will move their workers towards their mines when harassed. Harsh man. Point well made!
Leading with an overseer might deal with 1 mine, maybe even 2, though you will lose the seer to tank the 2nd hit, buying the zerg '40 seconds' of harass time (for 150/50, but never mind that) leaving the terran in exactly the same position they were in before adding mines. If the terran has a viking cleaning up OL around their base then you won't have those options, and never mind that they would be insanely slow for the task without the speed upgrade.
But hey, that's ok cause it's a huge cost and risk to the terran right. They have to build a factory, which they would never get otherwise. It also requires that other building ... oh, that's right. It doesn't. You can just make a few, plant them around your base and now it's super risky for a zerg to fly in. That justifies the 800/800 the zerg player sunk into 8 mutalisks.
Try and put your bias and your BS about how your 1000point master in Kr and i'm a gold scrub or whatever to one side for a sec and ask yourself. As a zerg, would you EVER go muta vs terran over infestor now that widow mines are in the game? Under what conditions would you consider that good choice?
On October 15 2012 17:27 Big J wrote: Couldn't you just have tempests out on the map sniping stuff, attacking swarm hosts when they move out and force burrows, now that they are T2? Take the MSC with you, and recall if you get attacked by too much antiair...
You still need mobile detection. Unless you proxy Nexus right next to the Swarm Hosts and cast Purify, like Blizzard apparently wants us to do.
On October 15 2012 17:27 Big J wrote: Couldn't you just have tempests out on the map sniping stuff, attacking swarm hosts when they move out and force burrows, now that they are T2? Take the MSC with you, and recall if you get attacked by too much antiair...
You still need mobile detection. Unless you proxy Nexus right next to the Swarm Hosts and cast Purify, like Blizzard apparently wants us to do.
Or you could get an observer, which most tosses will do anyway.
In BW you needed 2! yes 2 buildings to get an observer and people no matter what builds they were using went and got them.
On October 15 2012 18:16 BimBoHunTeR wrote: So it begins. Power up zerg and protoss, and nerf terran. ill quit sc soon.
Nobody gives a damn, stop cluttering the thread.
I like basically every change made save for the detection changes, but i think they are intentionally going way overboard with that so that they can accurately judge what effect it will have on the game. As it is right now DT's and cloakshees are practically useless, which is not a good thing indeed. I guess they are just trying to find a way for races to deal with widow mines without having to change widow mines itself. If that's the correct way to go about it, time will tell.
On October 14 2012 21:49 Apolo wrote: Who were thinks entomb is fun to use / to go aggainst ? I don't understand why Blizzard hasn't scrapped that ability yet. For me it's boring as heck.
At the present strength it is does inflict significant damage enough to consider it a threat. 1 min is extremely long.
Well, a Protoss pylon blocking a Zerg ramp is (was) a threat as well, but it's still lame.
On October 14 2012 21:49 Apolo wrote: Who were thinks entomb is fun to use / to go aggainst ? I don't understand why Blizzard hasn't scrapped that ability yet. For me it's boring as heck.
At the present strength it is does inflict significant damage enough to consider it a threat. 1 min is extremely long.
Well, a Protoss pylon blocking a Zerg ramp is (was) a threat as well, but it's still lame.
and has nothing in common with entomb. Entomb stops mining and forces units and attention to deal with the mineral shields. A pylon/bunker block makes playing standard strategies impossible and most of the time straight up wins the game.
But I still don't quite understand why the widow mine needs to hit air? It's suppoed to be a space controlling unit right? Well it seems the only map controlling flyer that can potentially give terran problems is the mutalisk? Muta ling bane created some of the most fun tvz. Nowadays they have been replaced by the infestor in most of the games (not all) because infestors already are the better choice in a lot of situations. I don't understand why they need to add an element that will make mutas even worse...?
On October 15 2012 23:48 DeCoup wrote: The mine needs to hit air because if it couldn't it would be almost useless. Observers and overseers need to be targetable by it.
I think it is not really because of those units, it is to make mech have a more consistent anti air. Right now Mech dies to air if you kill the Thors and the amount of Thors Mech has against initial air attacks varies between 0-3. It doesn't feel well designed if you win or lose simply by having the right amount of hightech (support) units early on. Widow mines hitting air makes mech play more reactive to air, because they can be produced fast, are cheaper on the gas and lower tech.
On October 15 2012 23:48 DeCoup wrote: The mine needs to hit air because if it couldn't it would be almost useless. Observers and overseers need to be targetable by it.
I think it is not really because of those units, it is to make mech have a more consistent anti air. Right now Mech dies to air if you kill the Thors and the amount of Thors Mech has against initial air attacks varies between 0-3. It doesn't feel well designed if you win or lose simply by having the right amount of hightech (support) units early on. Widow mines hitting air makes mech play more reactive to air, because they can be produced fast, are cheaper on the gas and lower tech.
But just because a terran is meching shouldn't mean he can't build a few marines for anti air should it? They seem to be some of the best easily massable and cost effecient anti air in the game and you'll inherently have the required structures to build them.
On October 15 2012 23:48 DeCoup wrote: The mine needs to hit air because if it couldn't it would be almost useless. Observers and overseers need to be targetable by it.
I think it is not really because of those units, it is to make mech have a more consistent anti air. Right now Mech dies to air if you kill the Thors and the amount of Thors Mech has against initial air attacks varies between 0-3. It doesn't feel well designed if you win or lose simply by having the right amount of hightech (support) units early on. Widow mines hitting air makes mech play more reactive to air, because they can be produced fast, are cheaper on the gas and lower tech.
But just because a terran is meching shouldn't mean he can't build a few marines for anti air should it? They seem to be some of the best easily massable and cost effecient anti air in the game and you'll inherently have the required structures to build them.
You seem to be under the impression that terran use the larva mechanic and can "mass" units at will. You cant mass marines from 1 or 2 rax.
On October 15 2012 23:48 DeCoup wrote: The mine needs to hit air because if it couldn't it would be almost useless. Observers and overseers need to be targetable by it.
I think it is not really because of those units, it is to make mech have a more consistent anti air. Right now Mech dies to air if you kill the Thors and the amount of Thors Mech has against initial air attacks varies between 0-3. It doesn't feel well designed if you win or lose simply by having the right amount of hightech (support) units early on. Widow mines hitting air makes mech play more reactive to air, because they can be produced fast, are cheaper on the gas and lower tech.
But just because a terran is meching shouldn't mean he can't build a few marines for anti air should it? They seem to be some of the best easily massable and cost effecient anti air in the game and you'll inherently have the required structures to build them.
No you can't if you go mech. To have enough production for that you'd need to go biomech, up to the point where you simply are playing bio with siege tank support like people do in TvZ.
And Marines are not easily massable. Marines are easily massable if you go bio, but actually one of the biggest downsides of marines is their huge production time, hence you can only spend very little money on marine production per barracks. (25seconds for a 50/0/1 unit, compared to 28-32seconds for a 100/0/2, 125/50/2 or 50/100/2 warpgate unit or a 17second larva respawn)
On October 15 2012 23:48 DeCoup wrote: The mine needs to hit air because if it couldn't it would be almost useless. Observers and overseers need to be targetable by it.
I think it is not really because of those units, it is to make mech have a more consistent anti air. Right now Mech dies to air if you kill the Thors and the amount of Thors Mech has against initial air attacks varies between 0-3. It doesn't feel well designed if you win or lose simply by having the right amount of hightech (support) units early on. Widow mines hitting air makes mech play more reactive to air, because they can be produced fast, are cheaper on the gas and lower tech.
But just because a terran is meching shouldn't mean he can't build a few marines for anti air should it? They seem to be some of the best easily massable and cost effecient anti air in the game and you'll inherently have the required structures to build them.
No you can't if you go mech. To have enough production for that you'd need to go biomech, up to the point where you simply are playing bio with siege tank support like people do in TvZ.
And Marines are not easily massable. Marines are easily massable if you go bio, but actually one of the biggest downsides of marines is their huge production time, hence you can only spend very little money on marine production per barracks. (25seconds for a 50/0/1 unit, compared to 28-32seconds for a 100/0/2, 125/50/2 or 50/100/2 warpgate unit or a 17second larva respawn)
My point was more along the lines of throwing a reactor on the barracks and pumping out a few marines is generally a good thing to do. If there's a chance the opponent could go air. They're pretty handy all game long and they're cheap and effective at what they do. They can be used as scouts, a small raiding party or just mixed in with an army.
Air shouldn't be a surprise if it is effective scouting wasn't performed. If it's a tech switch late game from toss the infrastructure required is similar to terran and can be scouted. Tech switch by zerg and there's nothing different between tech switches in HOTS and WOL. They're deadly for an unprepared terran. Arguably more so for a meching terran? Maybe, I'm not a pro.
I wasn't under the impression that marines spawned from larva - but that'd be cool if they did :D.
Most probably we're we've got two separate scenarios in our heads and we're arguing based on that. I'm not suggesting removing the air attack of widow mines. I think Blizzard will balance them nicely in the end.
My point is that given proper scouting marines can be used as a response to an air threat even for a meching terran. Whether that's supplemental to the widow mine or with widow mines supporting a contingent of marines.
On October 16 2012 01:31 K_osss wrote: Most probably we're we've got two separate scenarios in our heads and we're arguing based on that. I'm not suggesting removing the air attack of widow mines. I think Blizzard will balance them nicely in the end.
My point is that given proper scouting marines can be used as a response to an air threat even for a meching terran. Whether that's supplemental to the widow mine or with widow mines supporting a contingent of marines.
early on I agree. But later on unupgraded, unstimmed, unshielded marines are quite bad and 1rax+reactor simply won't give you enough support to really help out.
I hope that they will find a way for widow mines against air, to not make them as dominant as they are now, mostly thinking about drops, mutalisks, banshees and possibly phonixes in the mid-late game stages, yet keep them as a good support option for your main antiair probably consisting of thor+viking.
"a lot of feedback from lower-level Protoss players" imo this is why WoL still isnt balanced to this day. taking advice from lower level players, you should only be listening to PROS when i comes to balance stop trying to make the game noob friendly because the casuals stop playing after 5 mins and then the mid-core/hardcore gamers cba to play because the game is so unbalanced then the scene start to die down just like WoL did..
On October 15 2012 23:48 DeCoup wrote: The mine needs to hit air because if it couldn't it would be almost useless. Observers and overseers need to be targetable by it.
the mines are not used because of it's AA, mech players use vikings, thors and turrets for that.
the AA of mines removes more depth than adds to the game. like turrets aren't already good enough for protecting against air harass.
On October 16 2012 03:00 Shaoer wrote: Can someone explain to me... how widow mines differentiate from tanks, except for being short ranged and invisible -.-
and hitting air and not being able to attack consistently and having way less dps and higher burst and coming from reactored factories.
I mean, what you say can be transfered to a lot of other examples as well: "can someone explain to me... how zealots differentiate from stalkers apart from a few stats and range"
Is anyone else confused by how they're balancing the cloaking part of the Widow Mine?
It's one unit that can turn invisible before any other cloak timing... so instead of messing with the timing, or making the burrow an upgrade, they decide to change detection for every single race to counter this one unit?
I donno, maybe it will help with some of the binary "well you didn't build detection, so my banshees/dts/lol zerg doesn't have anything" scenario will play out less. I don't feel like it's an issue in WoL at anything but the lowest level though, so it seems weird to indirectly nerf all of the other cloaking units because of the mine.
On October 16 2012 03:00 Shaoer wrote: Can someone explain to me... how widow mines differentiate from tanks, except for being short ranged and invisible -.-
Not only are they short-ranged, they take a billion years to fire. They can also hit air units and cloaked units.
@Qikz: Dude, this isn't about people losing to widow mines. What part of widow mines being broken, don't you understand? The fact that Blizz is trying balance this game around them by giving p and z earlier detection is proof in itself.
Avilo (T) vs Wilko (P) Intelligent engagements by Wilko neutralises widow mine's effectiveness.
Yeah.. T won't win every single game, especially when opponent is playing intelligently. A case where a Protoss plays well a win... shows that Mech is not viable?
Avilo (T) vs Wilko (P) Intelligent engagements by Wilko neutralises widow mine's effectiveness.
Yeah.. T won't win every single game, especially when opponent is playing intelligently. A case where a Protoss plays well a win... shows that Mech is not viable?
the most fun part about this is that mech is said to be weaker earlier on, but avilo wins every engagement with widow mine/siege tank for the first 15mins offensively. I'm really looking forward seeing MVP play with those things
Avilo (T) vs Wilko (P) Intelligent engagements by Wilko neutralises widow mine's effectiveness.
Yeah.. T won't win every single game, especially when opponent is playing intelligently. A case where a Protoss plays well a win... shows that Mech is not viable?
the most fun part about this is that mech is said to be weaker earlier on, but avilo wins every engagement with widow mine/siege tank for the first 15mins offensively. I'm really looking forward seeing MVP play with those things
Against zerg and bio, mech is the weakest early on, however against protoss mech becomes incredibly weak late game which is why pros don't user mech in WoL. Immortals and Archons are still a MASSIVE problem for mech, especially with the archons being warped in so quickly late game and ghosts being so hard to keep alive/hit EMPs with due to the archons size.
I think until they change the immortal/archon to not counter tanks completely, mech will never be able to be fully good against protoss at a pro level.
Avilo (T) vs Wilko (P) Intelligent engagements by Wilko neutralises widow mine's effectiveness.
Yeah.. T won't win every single game, especially when opponent is playing intelligently. A case where a Protoss plays well a win... shows that Mech is not viable?
the most fun part about this is that mech is said to be weaker earlier on, but avilo wins every engagement with widow mine/siege tank for the first 15mins offensively. I'm really looking forward seeing MVP play with those things
Against zerg and bio, mech is the weakest early on, however against protoss mech becomes incredibly weak late game which is why pros don't user mech in WoL. Immortals and Archons are still a MASSIVE problem for mech, especially with the archons being warped in so quickly late game and ghosts being so hard to keep alive/hit EMPs with due to the archons size.
I think until they change the immortal/archon to not counter tanks completely, mech will never be able to be fully good against protoss at a pro level.
I can't comment to much on that, as I don't have HotS to test those things. But imo lategame Ghostmech is way stronger than early game hellion/tank in WoL vs Protoss.
I don't know, but I think there are quite some good ways to battle protoss with a mechbased composition, but it will probably require more than tank/mine for 20minutes and expect to win every combat as long as you are sieged/burrowed.
Avilo (T) vs Wilko (P) Intelligent engagements by Wilko neutralises widow mine's effectiveness.
Yeah.. T won't win every single game, especially when opponent is playing intelligently. A case where a Protoss plays well a win... shows that Mech is not viable?
the most fun part about this is that mech is said to be weaker earlier on, but avilo wins every engagement with widow mine/siege tank for the first 15mins offensively. I'm really looking forward seeing MVP play with those things
Against zerg and bio, mech is the weakest early on, however against protoss mech becomes incredibly weak late game which is why pros don't user mech in WoL. Immortals and Archons are still a MASSIVE problem for mech, especially with the archons being warped in so quickly late game and ghosts being so hard to keep alive/hit EMPs with due to the archons size.
I think until they change the immortal/archon to not counter tanks completely, mech will never be able to be fully good against protoss at a pro level.
I can't comment to much on that, as I don't have HotS to test those things. But imo lategame Ghostmech is way stronger than early game hellion/tank in WoL vs Protoss.
I don't know, but I think there are quite some good ways to battle protoss with a mechbased composition, but it will probably require more than tank/mine for 20minutes and expect to win every combat as long as you are sieged/burrowed.
Ghostmech is still not that good against Protoss because Ghosts are pretty gas heavy. Plus once you land some EMPs, the Protoss can choose not to engage and retreat to regenerate shields. Of course being a mech player means you can't chase after the army.
Mines don't change the core problem of mech TvP which is Immortals and energy bars but instead changed the game to the point that several other strategies are not viable anymore.
Avilo (T) vs Wilko (P) Intelligent engagements by Wilko neutralises widow mine's effectiveness.
Yeah.. T won't win every single game, especially when opponent is playing intelligently. A case where a Protoss plays well a win... shows that Mech is not viable?
the most fun part about this is that mech is said to be weaker earlier on, but avilo wins every engagement with widow mine/siege tank for the first 15mins offensively. I'm really looking forward seeing MVP play with those things
I want to see MVP cause a bunch of balance patches in the first few months also. Probably at the end of it, they'll take the nerf stick to mech so hard it will break terran. Let no one say that terran is op or up until the God plays!
Aw, I'm sad to see mothership core's energize removed. And I'm not even a protoss player.
Day[9] showed some replays in one of his dailies that showed some really creative mothership core usage. Including using energize on a sentry so you can hold your ramp with one sentry early game rather than several sentries.
On October 16 2012 10:20 Amaroq64 wrote: Aw, I'm sad to see mothership core's energize removed. And I'm not even a protoss player.
Day[9] showed some replays in one of his dailies that showed some really creative mothership core usage. Including using energize on a sentry so you can hold your ramp with one sentry early game rather than several sentries.
Yes, this is just one application of energize I was looking forward to in HotS. It added so much to protoss. If you don't have to make 5 sentries in the early game, that's 400 extra gas you can use to tech with earlier, or just gas you don't have to mine so you can expand earlier. I'm disgusted that they would take out such a dynamic ability just to try to better balance the most linear new ability in the game (entomb).
What Wilko showed is that if you have the deathball that'll ROFLSTOMP under 30s, widow mines aren't even a threat. I also noticed that the widow mine splash only seems to 10 dmg to immortal, can someone with beta key confirm?
On October 15 2012 12:39 Kharnage wrote:The entire dynamic of air based harass, drops, blink the whole shebang is just completely nullified.
Melodramatic theorycrafting is melodramatic. Mutalisks have a vision range of 11 and a speed of 3.5. Widow Mines have a vision range of 7, an attack range of 5, a speed of 2.8 and a burrow time of 3 seconds.
How in the world is this Widow Mine catching your clump of Mutas unprepared, pray tell? Three seconds is plenty of time to snipe a Mine, if he hasn't been massing them, and you have the sight range to intercept it while it's en route, buying you another 0.5/1 seconds even in the hands of a fast player.
And if you can't snipe it, just fly away. The Muta is faster, it will have at least 6 range's worth of space to see the Widow Mine coming EVEN IF the T positions his Mine precisely 6 range away and somehow knows that you won't move your Mutas 1 range away, making him lose 10 seconds of burrowing and un-burrowing for absolutely no gain. The Muta's power has always been in its ability to be in 10 places at once, and the Widow Mine is by definition immobile. It has to be rooted down to attack.
3/3 Stimmed Marines don't make a base Muta-proof despite their speed, but a handful of unupgradeable, slow, burrowing Widow Mines suddenly will? I'll believe it when I see it.
...you realize mutas can't see mines when they're burrowed, right?
...you realize that before a mine can be any kind of useful, it has to get into attacking range of Mutas, right? And then burrow for three seconds? And then it has to reposition itself once it becomes completely useless because the Mutas aren't worker sniping anymore but depot sniping instead. And again, once the Mutas switch target. And again.
Or if you want to play it 100% safe, keep one Muta within 11 range of the Factory so that you can see where he burrows his mine once it pops out, hoping to catch you unawares with one big boom in some hidden corner. Except you, now knowing where it's burrowed, can safely ignore it.
Or bring an Overseer. Gasp.
How seriously stupid are you?
Keep 1 muta within vision of hte factory and 100% of your focus on watching for the widow mine when it burrows? How does he then inject? How doe the muta player take advantage the 'pressure' is intended to create?
Look, stop being a total jackass and think for a moment how a game actually plays out.
Either you scout mutas on route or when they fly into your base and you go into crisis management. Move some marines, run your scv's etc. A few workers die, then the mutas back off for a bit and the zerg player does some actions in their own base such as injects, putting up a 4th base, start some upgrades and a round of drones. Then their focus returns to their muta flock which then returns to harass a min line, or a depot, or whatever they can do without putting the entire flock at risk. The cunning zergy sees some marines covering one place, moves to attack an apparantly vulnerable location and boom, 1 muta dies, half the flock loses 40hp (half health).
The harassment is done. The pressure is done. It's like they just got hit by a storm. In fact, this is a great way to look at it. Think of it as a cloaked HT with a range 5 storm on autocast. How do you harass that base? HOW? HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE HOW STUPID THE FUCKING MINE IS??????
Gosh. If only Zerg had easy access to a flying detector that could see any burrowed mines from 11 range away AND had enough HP to tank a hit, if it came to it, without dying!
Harassment is all about getting in quickly, doing some damage, and getting out before the other player reacts. Half the time you need to be able to do it BLINDLY while you manage an engagement in the middle of the map or while defending your own fucking base.
You lose a LOT of that window of opportunity if you have to lead with an overseer to 'tank' a mine shot. Don't forget, even if you spot the mine, you can't engage it with range 4 mutas.
Not only that, but all shift queue harass while defending your base is over. You're pushing my front so i queue my warp prism to drop 4 zealots in your mineral line and fly away while all my focus is on FF and warping in units to try and hold the front. Pointless. 1 mine kills WP, no harass. 0 focus required from terran player. Shift queue mutas to attack mineral line while microing ling/bling at the zerg 3rd. Forget that. 1 Mine, mutas dead. At no attention cost to the terran. None. Not even a big investment. 75/25 and no backstab options.
Basically harassing a terran base is much much MUCH harder than before, requiring total focus, with detector units for it to even be viable at minimal cost to the terran.
This is what pros are capable of. And you're whining about the loss of queue harass? Really? Really? Would it actually surprise you to learn that I'm not the least bit sympathetic to the plight of those who can't order one unit to move ahead of another one?
If Z suspects T has a mine, lead with an Overlord or an Overseer, problem solved. Period. Seriously, any Z will have an Ovie there already for scouting purposes, just push in 5 seconds before you go in with Mutas, soak up the damage, and for forty seconds that mine is useless. And the Ovie isn't even dead.
Your example from beginning to end has "gold league" written all over it. "0 focus required from terran player." The Mine is so easily negated, the T will have to focus on it to get any use out of it, except if his opponent is so stressed out that he can't properly multitask.
But poor multitasking should be punished.
Well done, you found a clip from a different game doing something completely different. Well, now i'm convinced.
Fine, 2 mines. they are stupidly cheap in all aspects except supply, which only matter when the terran maxes out.
Basically your argument is that players should be punished for poor multitasking, except terran who have a burrowed baneling with 5 range and auto cast that reloads every 40 seconds. Maybe I'll declare you must be a silver league and therefore your point of view is invalid.
The amount of focus required to get any use out of mines is the same as planting a cannon. Move, burrow. Done. Now all the work is on the other guy. At most the T player will move their workers towards their mines when harassed. Harsh man. Point well made!
Leading with an overseer might deal with 1 mine, maybe even 2, though you will lose the seer to tank the 2nd hit, buying the zerg '40 seconds' of harass time (for 150/50, but never mind that) leaving the terran in exactly the same position they were in before adding mines. If the terran has a viking cleaning up OL around their base then you won't have those options, and never mind that they would be insanely slow for the task without the speed upgrade.
But hey, that's ok cause it's a huge cost and risk to the terran right. They have to build a factory, which they would never get otherwise. It also requires that other building ... oh, that's right. It doesn't. You can just make a few, plant them around your base and now it's super risky for a zerg to fly in. That justifies the 800/800 the zerg player sunk into 8 mutalisks.
Try and put your bias and your BS about how your 1000point master in Kr and i'm a gold scrub or whatever to one side for a sec and ask yourself. As a zerg, would you EVER go muta vs terran over infestor now that widow mines are in the game? Under what conditions would you consider that good choice?
This alone proves how clueless you are, d'yu know what friendly fire means? Moving all of your SCVs towards a mine would mean instant death (or at least instant 5hp) for 70% of them, providing the opponent knows how to play Starcraft 2.
widow mines are not good offensively in the late game because of the burrow requirement and short range. Tanks need time to sieged up as well but at least they have insane range. In terms of protecting the tanks i think the hellbats do a better job.
The only good thing about the mine is their defensive ability, so terrans can turtle up and macro. But what's the point of turtling when terrans still has the worst late game in sc2?
On October 14 2012 16:59 larse wrote: If you count the means of detection of each race, u will know why.
So Zerg has overseers, toss has observers, terran has raven. These are the only constant mobile detection each of the races have. They all have static defense detection with spores, cannons, turrets. And they all had units that can detect with a mana base ability fungal/scan/revelation. Purify being like a super cannon with additional static defense (non mobile) doesnt add so much detection they needed to remove revelation....
I agree. Oracle with revelation + detection made you not always have to get robo for obs (though in most cases, people did anywhere).
I mean, I like the concept of Oracle having detection too.
It's not too different from Ghost decloaking with EMP, Infestors with Fungal, etc.
On October 16 2012 10:20 Amaroq64 wrote: Aw, I'm sad to see mothership core's energize removed. And I'm not even a protoss player.
Day[9] showed some replays in one of his dailies that showed some really creative mothership core usage. Including using energize on a sentry so you can hold your ramp with one sentry early game rather than several sentries.
Yes, this is just one application of energize I was looking forward to in HotS. It added so much to protoss. If you don't have to make 5 sentries in the early game, that's 400 extra gas you can use to tech with earlier, or just gas you don't have to mine so you can expand earlier. I'm disgusted that they would take out such a dynamic ability just to try to better balance the most linear new ability in the game (entomb).
I agree. The simplest solution would to be make energize not usable on flying units or make it so it gives different units different amount of energy (all of them easy to do with the editor).
^ Or change entombed into something not stupid and incredibly monodimensional. As it is right now it's just one more thing you have to remember to do every x seconds, but it really doesn't separate bad playerse from good ones and great ones.
Something really strange and incomprehensible about HotS: The Zergs.
I thought Blizzard wanted to discourage deathball play, and wanted to give Zerg some more options to break T/P opponents without having to tech all the way up to Hive.
As it stands, Z late game is becoming even more monstrous. All their good stuff is coming at mid-Lair to Hive. (Swarm Host, Hydra speed, Viper, Ultra Charge, etc.,on top of the existing BL+Infestor deathballs)
Meanwhile in early-to-mid game, Zerg have basically have the same stuff they have in WoL while T/P get game-changing new stuff. Most of games at pro-level will be decided in early~mid game at the early stage of HotS, and I don't know whether it makes sense or is even fair to pit WoL Zerg against HotS Terran/Protoss. Maps will accordingly have to be changed to Zerg QQ's, and eventually the players will be forced to play long games. And then T/P's QQ will break out against unstoppable Zerg late game.
Something is very wrong here and I can't exactly pinpoint it
Edit: I mean, if you thought Spine farms + Brood Lords + Bazillion Infestors were bad, imagine Spine farms + Brood Lords + Infestors + Swarm hosts + Vipers + Hydras. It's ultimate 1A army with only micro for Vipers and Infestors.
Entomed could be tweaked to be more interesting, no? Quite easily.
Instead of blocking whole mineral patches, make a single cast block one or two patches. Lower the energy spent for the spell, lower the speed of oracle, but give more hitpoints. Then we will have a kind of cat-and-mouse type of micro war between oracles vs. enemies. (kind of like muta harrass)
Entomed in its current state is perhaps the most boring spell in existence in SC2 universe.
On October 16 2012 17:14 usethis2 wrote: Entomed could be tweaked to be more interesting, no? Quite easily.
Instead of blocking whole mineral patches, make a single cast block one or two patches. Lower the energy spent for the spell, lower the speed of oracle, but give more hitpoints. Then we will have a kind of cat-and-mouse type of micro war between oracles vs. enemies. (kind of like muta harrass)
Entomed in its current state is perhaps the most boring spell in existence in SC2 universe.
And what, you will see Protoss players shift+click Entomb, resulting in same thing we have right now with just a couple of more clicks. They won't watch the Oracle, nor micro it. it is the same thing as with Infested Terrans. In the Alpha, Infestors could spawn 5 Infested Terrans at the same time, and they cost about 100 energy. Now, they cast them one by one for 25 energy, and does that look interesting, or more skillful? Nope, it just makes it a spam fest.
They deleted the Warhound, first mistake, sure it was op, but it just needed some nerf in DPS or speed and an increase in the cost. But no, IT'S OP KILL IT WITH FIRE!
You need to calm down and analyze stuff better. Warhound problem was beyond their OP status. I was a freaking 1a uber flat unit. Worst units design wise from SC2 WoL are Roaches and Marauders. The warhound was the new king of the hill.
freaking 1a unit? was about time terran got it... toss n zerg have alredy 5-6-7 a move units while terran have 0.
They deleted the Warhound, first mistake, sure it was op, but it just needed some nerf in DPS or speed and an increase in the cost. But no, IT'S OP KILL IT WITH FIRE!
You need to calm down and analyze stuff better. Warhound problem was beyond their OP status. I was a freaking 1a uber flat unit. Worst units design wise from SC2 WoL are Roaches and Marauders. The warhound was the new king of the hill.
freaking 1a unit? was about time terran got it... toss n zerg have alredy 5-6-7 a move units while terran have 0.
... And the better way to fix this is making Terran a-movy? I beg to freaking differ. How about making Z and P less a-movy instead? SEEMS GENIUS RIGHT?
Blizzard don't be afraid to bring the Firebat to HotS. The Hellbat or whatever you want to call it is not a mech unit. It plays just like a bio unit. A Medevac can heal an Hellbat but not an Hellion, there's absolutely no logic to this.
If they are making a game with diferents mechanics and units Why they wanna use the same strategy They can have a heavy mechanical army with infantry support or the other way and balance it !
On October 16 2012 21:09 Warpish wrote: Blizzard don't be afraid to bring the Firebat to HotS. The Hellbat or whatever you want to call it is not a mech unit. It plays just like a bio unit. A Medevac can heal an Hellbat but not an Hellion, there's absolutely no logic to this.
Isn't stim require part of the "bio feeling"? Or are Hellbats stim-able?
Why do they remove evo chamber requirement? Capable zerg players should be capable of making an evo chamber before spore crawlers just like protosses need forge before cannon and terrans need Ebay before turrets. It's like all harass cloak rushes vZ are pointless now. Why did they remove energize? Seemed like a fun and balanced concept to me. Why call the battle hellion a hellbat? If you want a firebat in the game blizzard why would you remove it in the first place? *facepalm* Good Tempest changes though. Carry on.
On October 16 2012 21:09 Warpish wrote: Blizzard don't be afraid to bring the Firebat to HotS. The Hellbat or whatever you want to call it is not a mech unit. It plays just like a bio unit.
Firebats can't transform. Firebats come from the same building that Marines do. Firebats can stim. Firebats share upgrades with Marines, not tanks. Firebats are not Hellbats.
Just because they're both units that can be healed by Medivacs and have AoE fire attacks doesn't mean they're the same unit.
On October 16 2012 21:09 Warpish wrote: A Medevac can heal an Hellbat but not an Hellion, there's absolutely no logic to this.
Come now, surely you see that there are plenty of illogical things in SC2 (and SC1 for that matter). Are you going to argue that SCVs should no longer be heal-able by Medivacs too?
On October 17 2012 06:55 Ry2D2 wrote: Why do they remove evo chamber requirement? Capable zerg players should be capable of making an evo chamber before spore crawlers just like protosses need forge before cannon and terrans need Ebay before turrets. It's like all harass cloak rushes vZ are pointless now.
I kinda agree, but as you say, a capable Zerg would already have evo chambers out against cloaked rushes. This change won't affect a thing at the pro level for those builds, and I daresay it won't matter much in most of the higher leagues.
On October 17 2012 06:55 Ry2D2 wrote: Why call the battle hellion a hellbat? If you want a firebat in the game blizzard why would you remove it in the first place?
See my above points.
p.s. Why are people so giddy about Firebats anyway? From what I recall the only time they'd be seen in BW games was when doing an early bust of a Zerg's sunken colony wall, and far from a staple unit in pro games. But from the responses it sounds like the "Hellbat" is a crime against a much-loved ol' favorite.
On October 16 2012 21:09 Warpish wrote: Blizzard don't be afraid to bring the Firebat to HotS. The Hellbat or whatever you want to call it is not a mech unit. It plays just like a bio unit.
Firebats can't transform. Firebats come from the same building that Marines do. Firebats can stim. Firebats share upgrades with Marines, not tanks. Firebats are not Hellbats.
Just because they're both units that can be healed by Medivacs and have AoE fire attacks doesn't mean they're the same unit.
On October 16 2012 21:09 Warpish wrote: A Medevac can heal an Hellbat but not an Hellion, there's absolutely no logic to this.
Come now, surely you see that there are plenty of illogical things in SC2 (and SC1 for that matter). Are you going to argue that SCVs should no longer be heal-able by Medivacs too?
On October 17 2012 06:55 Ry2D2 wrote: Why do they remove evo chamber requirement? Capable zerg players should be capable of making an evo chamber before spore crawlers just like protosses need forge before cannon and terrans need Ebay before turrets. It's like all harass cloak rushes vZ are pointless now.
I kinda agree, but as you say, a capable Zerg would already have evo chambers out against cloaked rushes. This change won't affect a thing at the pro level for those builds, and I daresay it won't matter much in most of the higher leagues.
On October 17 2012 06:55 Ry2D2 wrote: Why call the battle hellion a hellbat? If you want a firebat in the game blizzard why would you remove it in the first place?
See my above points.
p.s. Why are people so giddy about Firebats anyway? From what I recall the only time they'd be seen in BW games was when doing an early bust of a Zerg's sunken colony wall, and far from a staple unit in pro games. But from the responses it sounds like the "Hellbat" is a crime against a much-loved ol' favorite.
Completely agree with everything. It is funny that people actually whines about some things that don't make any sense, but ignore the others, and they are "fine". Hypocrisy at its best.
On October 17 2012 06:55 Ry2D2 wrote: Why do they remove evo chamber requirement? Capable zerg players should be capable of making an evo chamber before spore crawlers just like protosses need forge before cannon and terrans need Ebay before turrets. It's like all harass cloak rushes vZ are pointless now. Why did they remove energize? Seemed like a fun and balanced concept to me. Why call the battle hellion a hellbat? If you want a firebat in the game blizzard why would you remove it in the first place? *facepalm* Good Tempest changes though. Carry on.
You would think of overlords all had detection like bw that cloak rushes would be pointless right? Wasn't that way at all and probably won't be pointless either with this change.
On October 17 2012 06:55 Ry2D2 wrote: Why do they remove evo chamber requirement? Capable zerg players should be capable of making an evo chamber before spore crawlers just like protosses need forge before cannon and terrans need Ebay before turrets. It's like all harass cloak rushes vZ are pointless now. Why did they remove energize? Seemed like a fun and balanced concept to me. Why call the battle hellion a hellbat? If you want a firebat in the game blizzard why would you remove it in the first place? *facepalm* Good Tempest changes though. Carry on.
You would think of overlords all had detection like bw that cloak rushes would be pointless right? Wasn't that way at all and probably won't be pointless either with this change.
There were no Banshees in BW. Rushing cloaked Wraiths isn't the same.
For , they had the Corsair which was much better at killing/zoning Overlords than Phoenixes. AKA Corsair/DT. Phoenix/DT isn't nearly as good even when Overlords don't come with free detection.
On October 17 2012 06:55 Ry2D2 wrote: Why do they remove evo chamber requirement? Capable zerg players should be capable of making an evo chamber before spore crawlers just like protosses need forge before cannon and terrans need Ebay before turrets. It's like all harass cloak rushes vZ are pointless now. Why did they remove energize? Seemed like a fun and balanced concept to me. Why call the battle hellion a hellbat? If you want a firebat in the game blizzard why would you remove it in the first place? *facepalm* Good Tempest changes though. Carry on.
You would think of overlords all had detection like bw that cloak rushes would be pointless right? Wasn't that way at all and probably won't be pointless either with this change.
There were no Banshees in BW. Rushing cloaked Wraiths isn't the same.
For , they had the Corsair which was much better at killing/zoning Overlords than Phoenixes. AKA Corsair/DT. Phoenix/DT isn't nearly as good even when Overlords don't come with free detection.
Not really comparable situations.
It will be as powerful if Toss can defend with a reaver and a few cannons.
StarCraft is not doomed. We quite love the game! We are working hard on Swarm and certainly keeping an eye on all community feedback. StarCraft has a long life ahead of its self.
This coming week you will be hearing from us a great deal on new features coming to the Swarm beta, and will soon be talking a great deal more about the coming Global Finals for the World Championship Series in Shanghai, China on Nov. 17-18.
What are you all enjoying most about the game and the scene these days? GSL finals this weekend anyone?
EPT
, they had the Corsair which was much better at killing/zoning Overlords than Phoenixes. AKA Corsair/DT. Phoenix/DT isn't nearly as good even when Overlords don't come with free detection.
