EPTHotS Balance Update #6 10/12/12 - Page 26
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DeCoup
Australia1933 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 15 2012 23:48 DeCoup wrote: The mine needs to hit air because if it couldn't it would be almost useless. Observers and overseers need to be targetable by it. I think it is not really because of those units, it is to make mech have a more consistent anti air. Right now Mech dies to air if you kill the Thors and the amount of Thors Mech has against initial air attacks varies between 0-3. It doesn't feel well designed if you win or lose simply by having the right amount of hightech (support) units early on. Widow mines hitting air makes mech play more reactive to air, because they can be produced fast, are cheaper on the gas and lower tech. | ||
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K_osss
United States113 Posts
On October 15 2012 23:55 Big J wrote: I think it is not really because of those units, it is to make mech have a more consistent anti air. Right now Mech dies to air if you kill the Thors and the amount of Thors Mech has against initial air attacks varies between 0-3. It doesn't feel well designed if you win or lose simply by having the right amount of hightech (support) units early on. Widow mines hitting air makes mech play more reactive to air, because they can be produced fast, are cheaper on the gas and lower tech. But just because a terran is meching shouldn't mean he can't build a few marines for anti air should it? They seem to be some of the best easily massable and cost effecient anti air in the game and you'll inherently have the required structures to build them. | ||
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Fjodorov
5007 Posts
On October 16 2012 00:34 K_osss wrote: But just because a terran is meching shouldn't mean he can't build a few marines for anti air should it? They seem to be some of the best easily massable and cost effecient anti air in the game and you'll inherently have the required structures to build them. You seem to be under the impression that terran use the larva mechanic and can "mass" units at will. You cant mass marines from 1 or 2 rax. | ||
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TheLunatic
309 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 16 2012 00:34 K_osss wrote: But just because a terran is meching shouldn't mean he can't build a few marines for anti air should it? They seem to be some of the best easily massable and cost effecient anti air in the game and you'll inherently have the required structures to build them. No you can't if you go mech. To have enough production for that you'd need to go biomech, up to the point where you simply are playing bio with siege tank support like people do in TvZ. And Marines are not easily massable. Marines are easily massable if you go bio, but actually one of the biggest downsides of marines is their huge production time, hence you can only spend very little money on marine production per barracks. (25seconds for a 50/0/1 unit, compared to 28-32seconds for a 100/0/2, 125/50/2 or 50/100/2 warpgate unit or a 17second larva respawn) | ||
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K_osss
United States113 Posts
On October 16 2012 01:06 Big J wrote: No you can't if you go mech. To have enough production for that you'd need to go biomech, up to the point where you simply are playing bio with siege tank support like people do in TvZ. And Marines are not easily massable. Marines are easily massable if you go bio, but actually one of the biggest downsides of marines is their huge production time, hence you can only spend very little money on marine production per barracks. (25seconds for a 50/0/1 unit, compared to 28-32seconds for a 100/0/2, 125/50/2 or 50/100/2 warpgate unit or a 17second larva respawn) My point was more along the lines of throwing a reactor on the barracks and pumping out a few marines is generally a good thing to do. If there's a chance the opponent could go air. They're pretty handy all game long and they're cheap and effective at what they do. They can be used as scouts, a small raiding party or just mixed in with an army. Air shouldn't be a surprise if it is effective scouting wasn't performed. If it's a tech switch late game from toss the infrastructure required is similar to terran and can be scouted. Tech switch by zerg and there's nothing different between tech switches in HOTS and WOL. They're deadly for an unprepared terran. Arguably more so for a meching terran? Maybe, I'm not a pro. I wasn't under the impression that marines spawned from larva - but that'd be cool if they did :D. | ||
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K_osss
United States113 Posts
My point is that given proper scouting marines can be used as a response to an air threat even for a meching terran. Whether that's supplemental to the widow mine or with widow mines supporting a contingent of marines. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 16 2012 01:31 K_osss wrote: Most probably we're we've got two separate scenarios in our heads and we're arguing based on that. I'm not suggesting removing the air attack of widow mines. I think Blizzard will balance them nicely in the end. My point is that given proper scouting marines can be used as a response to an air threat even for a meching terran. Whether that's supplemental to the widow mine or with widow mines supporting a contingent of marines. early on I agree. But later on unupgraded, unstimmed, unshielded marines are quite bad and 1rax+reactor simply won't give you enough support to really help out. I hope that they will find a way for widow mines against air, to not make them as dominant as they are now, mostly thinking about drops, mutalisks, banshees and possibly phonixes in the mid-late game stages, yet keep them as a good support option for your main antiair probably consisting of thor+viking. | ||
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dNsIMonTy
United Kingdom26 Posts
imo this is why WoL still isnt balanced to this day. taking advice from lower level players, you should only be listening to PROS when i comes to balance stop trying to make the game noob friendly because the casuals stop playing after 5 mins and then the mid-core/hardcore gamers cba to play because the game is so unbalanced then the scene start to die down just like WoL did.. | ||
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rpgalon
Brazil1069 Posts
On October 15 2012 23:48 DeCoup wrote: The mine needs to hit air because if it couldn't it would be almost useless. Observers and overseers need to be targetable by it. the mines are not used because of it's AA, mech players use vikings, thors and turrets for that. the AA of mines removes more depth than adds to the game. like turrets aren't already good enough for protecting against air harass. | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
Avilo (T) vs Wilko (P) Intelligent engagements by Wilko neutralises widow mine's effectiveness. | ||
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Suikakuju
Germany238 Posts
window mine lets you lose againt zero micro terrans with 40apm Its going to be GomTvT all day long | ||
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Shaoer
United States60 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 16 2012 03:00 Shaoer wrote: Can someone explain to me... how widow mines differentiate from tanks, except for being short ranged and invisible -.- and hitting air and not being able to attack consistently and having way less dps and higher burst and coming from reactored factories. I mean, what you say can be transfered to a lot of other examples as well: "can someone explain to me... how zealots differentiate from stalkers apart from a few stats and range" | ||
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TrickyGilligan
United States641 Posts
It's one unit that can turn invisible before any other cloak timing... so instead of messing with the timing, or making the burrow an upgrade, they decide to change detection for every single race to counter this one unit? I donno, maybe it will help with some of the binary "well you didn't build detection, so my banshees/dts/lol zerg doesn't have anything" scenario will play out less. I don't feel like it's an issue in WoL at anything but the lowest level though, so it seems weird to indirectly nerf all of the other cloaking units because of the mine. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12027 Posts
On October 16 2012 02:16 Suikakuju wrote: don´t bother to play this utterly broken piece of shit terra game window mine lets you lose againt zero micro terrans with 40apm Its going to be GomTvT all day long Surely you can't be serious. If you're losing to just widow mines than that's just you playing really badly. | ||
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Crawdad
614 Posts
On October 16 2012 03:00 Shaoer wrote: Can someone explain to me... how widow mines differentiate from tanks, except for being short ranged and invisible -.- Not only are they short-ranged, they take a billion years to fire. They can also hit air units and cloaked units. | ||
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Phoenix2003
126 Posts
What part of widow mines being broken, don't you understand? The fact that Blizz is trying balance this game around them by giving p and z earlier detection is proof in itself. | ||
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dragonblade369
Canada464 Posts
On October 16 2012 02:14 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_raBwbwRQCs&feature=g-user-u Avilo (T) vs Wilko (P) Intelligent engagements by Wilko neutralises widow mine's effectiveness. Yeah.. T won't win every single game, especially when opponent is playing intelligently. A case where a Protoss plays well a win... shows that Mech is not viable? | ||
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