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Rukis
United States252 Posts
On October 14 2012 01:01 Freezd wrote: You don't need a beta key to acquire the ability to read. Reading and Playing are very two different things. You have no idea how it would play out without having a beta key. | ||
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obsid
United States389 Posts
So I am thinking changing it to be more like: pheonix>muta>void ray>corruptors >Carrier/Tempest>infesters>phoenix. infesters might fit the role of being "anti phoenix" even if they are not an air unit because of fungal and IT. But you still need a unit that kill corruptors but loses to muta. Currently there isnt such a unit. Voidrays should be that unit, but it doesnt work out so well. Right now voidrays tend to be a "very" late game unit. Because of how the Prismatic Beams charging up work it makes it really powerful if you got a LOT of them, but that also means for balance they are really weak if you dont have a lot of them. (PS. they are also used to keep a zerg from taking a quick 3rd or killing it if they do, but thats really because its before corruptors/muta are out). They do poorly against corruptors and muta in numbers less then 20 (although decent at cutting down broodlords quickly, any air unit can kill them). A better remake of the voidray would make them good against corrupters, bad against mutas. First thing I would do is cut the +20% to massive, let the tempest take that role. And then I would buff the dmg from 6+4 vs armored / 8+8 vs armored, to 6+6 vs armored / 8+8 vs armored. This would keep the voidray as is for non-armored units like muta, would decrease their effectiveness against carriers/tempests/BCs but would make the voidray better at killing corruptors/vikings. Maybe a slight speed bump in voidray as well would be good (so they can keep up and kill the corrupters/vikings). Then if you want to counter the void rays in the air (as marine/hydra would be just as effective), get some BC's or carriers (the voidrays would be almost 20% worse against them then they are now), but then the toss could get tempests to kill that. That still might not make muta good enough against the voidray (or the void ray good enough against the corrupters), you might need to get rid of prismatic beams (which really seem to be an anti-large unit/anti-building kind of ability), and instead just have like a 6+8 vs armored all the time. You might need to reduce pheonix dps a little bit (but buff their hp), so that muta can stick around a little longer in a direct fight. | ||
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Kharnage
Australia920 Posts
On October 15 2012 10:28 mcdrewbie wrote: Sheesh, some of you seem to think Blizzard cannot design games and doesn't know what they are doing. They have a track record of success with several games, and made the game you currently play and are dedicated enough to complain about how "they are ruining it!" Also it seems like they are darned if they do, darned if they don't. If they kept the design and balance of new units totally in house, they would get criticized for not asking for and listening to player opinion. By asking for player opinion, and making their decisions public and listening to players, they "have" to please every level of player. It is lose-lose. No, they change something, people give feedback which ranges from 'this is great!' to 'omfg, this is so bad'. They sift through that and compare it with their own analysis and make a decision on what to do. Their 'track record' isn't in question. They make fantastic games. However some of the units / ideas for this beta have been ... how should I put it ... less than stellar? Take the current widow mine. In it's current interation is bad because it fundamentally fucks air play. Forget everything regarding zone control, rushing, everything else and just look at it from the single perspective of harassing a terran via air. Even If a terran isn't going mech and someone goes for air harass vs them they can either make some mines 1 at a time out of their factory or they can hotswap a reactor-rax for a reactor-fact and make a few mines per min line and COMPLETELY shut it down for the rest of the game. You can see that at a glance. The ONLY harassing air unit in the game which has more than range 5 is the banshee. Air units clump by design, making them super vulnerable to the mine,which is hidden from view so you can't micro around it, and will 1 shot any flying unit making it pay for it's cost even if you 'poke' with 1 flyer to check for mines. This alone is enough to tell you that this is broken. The entire dynamic of air based harass, drops, blink the whole shebang is just completely nullified. You don't have to play the beta to see this. It's obvious. The widow mine should never have entered the game in it's current state. | ||
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Elementy
United States183 Posts
On October 15 2012 12:39 Kharnage wrote: You don't have to play the beta to see this. It's obvious. The widow mine should never have entered the game in it's current state. -_- to say never is to take away what testing is all about! i love these extremes and there willingness to do anything gives me hope for a fun expansion. | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6214 Posts
Detection on core and tech-less spore crawlers are really dumb. What's the point of having cloaked units in the game if every race can trivially defend against them from T1? And yet, at the same time, protoss once again needs a robo to move out. So much for differentiating the tech trees. | ||
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obsid
United States389 Posts
On October 15 2012 12:52 Belisarius wrote: Detection on core and tech-less spore crawlers are really dumb. What's the point of having cloaked units in the game if every race can trivially defend against them from T1? They cant defend against them everywhere, or for each place they do, they pay a cost. It makes expanding a lot harder if you cant get off creep (as spores can only stay on creep), so they can easily slow down that 3rd/4th. And prevent the zerg from attacking while you expand. And then there is the mid/late game where they were already fairly powerful by quickly going into a base with just 1 spore with like 6+ dts and killing the spore quickly and then the hatch and getting out of there. | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6214 Posts
On October 15 2012 13:00 obsid wrote: They cant defend against them everywhere, or for each place they do, they pay a cost. It makes expanding a lot harder if you cant get off creep (as spores can only stay on creep), so they can easily slow down that 3rd/4th. And prevent the zerg from attacking while you expand. And then there is the mid/late game where they were already fairly powerful by quickly going into a base with just 1 spore with like 6+ dts and killing the spore quickly and then the hatch and getting out of there. But cloak harass does all that in WoL as well as being able to actually kill things, and yet DTs/cloakshees before lategame are already rare because of the massive tech cost. Free spores and detection on nexi will be pretty much the final nail in the coffin. If widow mine cheese forced their hand, they should have changed the mine again, not the entire game. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On October 15 2012 12:39 Kharnage wrote:The entire dynamic of air based harass, drops, blink the whole shebang is just completely nullified. Melodramatic theorycrafting is melodramatic. Mutalisks have a vision range of 11 and a speed of 3.5. Widow Mines have a vision range of 7, an attack range of 5, a speed of 2.8 and a burrow time of 3 seconds. How in the world is this Widow Mine catching your clump of Mutas unprepared, pray tell? Three seconds is plenty of time to snipe a Mine, if he hasn't been massing them, and you have the sight range to intercept it while it's en route, buying you another 0.5/1 seconds even in the hands of a fast player. And if you can't snipe it, just fly away. The Muta is faster, it will have at least 6 range's worth of space to see the Widow Mine coming EVEN IF the T positions his Mine precisely 6 range away and somehow knows that you won't move your Mutas 1 range away, making him lose 10 seconds of burrowing and un-burrowing for absolutely no gain. The Muta's power has always been in its ability to be in 10 places at once, and the Widow Mine is by definition immobile. It has to be rooted down to attack. 3/3 Stimmed Marines don't make a base Muta-proof despite their speed, but a handful of unupgradeable, slow, burrowing Widow Mines suddenly will? I'll believe it when I see it. | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6214 Posts
On October 15 2012 13:05 pure.Wasted wrote: Melodramatic theorycrafting is melodramatic. Mutalisks have a vision range of 11 and a speed of 3.5. Widow Mines have a vision range of 7, an attack range of 5, a speed of 2.8 and a burrow time of 3 seconds. How in the world is this Widow Mine catching your clump of Mutas unprepared, pray tell? Three seconds is plenty of time to snipe a Mine, if he hasn't been massing them, and you have the sight range to intercept it while it's en route, buying you another 0.5/1 seconds even in the hands of a fast player. And if you can't snipe it, just fly away. The Muta is faster, it will have at least 6 range's worth of space to see the Widow Mine coming EVEN IF the T positions his Mine precisely 6 range away and somehow knows that you won't move your Mutas 1 range away, making him lose 10 seconds of burrowing and un-burrowing for absolutely no gain. The Muta's power has always been in its ability to be in 10 places at once, and the Widow Mine is by definition immobile. It has to be rooted down to attack. 3/3 Stimmed Marines don't make a base Muta-proof despite their speed, but a handful of unupgradeable, slow, burrowing Widow Mines suddenly will? I'll believe it when I see it. ...you realize mutas can't see mines when they're burrowed, right? | ||
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Kharnage
Australia920 Posts
On October 15 2012 13:10 Belisarius wrote: ...you realize mutas can't see mines when they're burrowed, right? Thank you Belisarius. I guess not everyone can look at the mine and see how stupidly broken it is... I'll try with less words. Mines burrow at terran mineral line. Harass GO BOOM unless they have detection AND greater than range 5. On October 15 2012 12:52 Elementy wrote: -_- to say never is to take away what testing is all about! i love these extremes and there willingness to do anything gives me hope for a fun expansion. Honestly, their internal testing should have been enough to rule this out, just like I can rule out the idea of having 'autocast' on fungal. That the idea persists still breaks my mind. If nothing else they MUST change the dynamic vs air units. | ||
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SuperYo1000
United States880 Posts
On October 15 2012 13:24 Kharnage wrote: Thank you Belisarius. I guess not everyone can look at the mine and see how stupidly broken it is... I'll try with less words. Mines burrow at terran mineral line. Harass GO BOOM unless they have detection AND greater than range 5. Honestly, their internal testing should have been enough to rule this out, just like I can rule out the idea of having 'autocast' on fungal. That the idea persists still breaks my mind. If nothing else they MUST change the dynamic vs air units. actually....if the zerg knows where its burrowed....sending in 1 mutalisk at right angle can use the mine against the terran as in it has friendly damage | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On October 15 2012 13:10 Belisarius wrote: ...you realize mutas can't see mines when they're burrowed, right? ...you realize that before a mine can be any kind of useful, it has to get into attacking range of Mutas, right? And then burrow for three seconds? And then it has to reposition itself once it becomes completely useless because the Mutas aren't worker sniping anymore but depot sniping instead. And again, once the Mutas switch target. And again. Or if you want to play it 100% safe, keep one Muta within 11 range of the Factory so that you can see where he burrows his mine once it pops out, hoping to catch you unawares with one big boom in some hidden corner. Except you, now knowing where it's burrowed, can safely ignore it. Or bring an Overseer. Gasp. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On October 15 2012 13:24 Kharnage wrote: Thank you Belisarius. I guess not everyone can look at the mine and see how stupidly broken it is... I'll try with less words. Mines burrow at terran mineral line. Harass GO BOOM unless they have detection AND greater than range 5. You're changing the scenario. The scenario, as outlined by you, was that the Terran has no widow mines on the field. First Widow Mine popping out of a Factory 40 seconds after Muta harassment starts gives the Zerg plenty of opportunities to take it down or avoid it completely without the use of an Overseer, as I've outlined above. Fine, T might have one in the mineral field, and you can't not snipe his workers (despite the base presenting tons of other valuable targets: add ons, new units, depots). You're COMPELLED to go after the workers. No problem. Bring one Overseer. It'll see the mine well before it can attack either it or the Mutalisks. Use the Overseer to take a shot, it survives with 40 HP, go in with Mutas and snipe the mine. He's out 75/25 and 40 seconds of Factory build, you're exactly where you were in WOL. Or bring an Overlord, let it tank a shot, and you have 40 seconds to kill his workers. Because it takes the mine 40 seconds to reload. You don't even have to kill it. | ||
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Zerg.Zilla
Hungary5029 Posts
Sporecrawler before evo chamber - fuck yeah! | ||
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Kharnage
Australia920 Posts
On October 15 2012 13:55 pure.Wasted wrote: ...you realize that before a mine can be any kind of useful, it has to get into attacking range of Mutas, right? And then burrow for three seconds? And then it has to reposition itself once it becomes completely useless because the Mutas aren't worker sniping anymore but depot sniping instead. And again, once the Mutas switch target. And again. Or if you want to play it 100% safe, keep one Muta within 11 range of the Factory so that you can see where he burrows his mine once it pops out, hoping to catch you unawares with one big boom in some hidden corner. Except you, now knowing where it's burrowed, can safely ignore it. Or bring an Overseer. Gasp. How seriously stupid are you? Keep 1 muta within vision of hte factory and 100% of your focus on watching for the widow mine when it burrows? How does he then inject? How doe the muta player take advantage the 'pressure' is intended to create? Look, stop being a total jackass and think for a moment how a game actually plays out. Either you scout mutas on route or when they fly into your base and you go into crisis management. Move some marines, run your scv's etc. A few workers die, then the mutas back off for a bit and the zerg player does some actions in their own base such as injects, putting up a 4th base, start some upgrades and a round of drones. Then their focus returns to their muta flock which then returns to harass a min line, or a depot, or whatever they can do without putting the entire flock at risk. The cunning zergy sees some marines covering one place, moves to attack an apparantly vulnerable location and boom, 1 muta dies, half the flock loses 40hp (half health). The harassment is done. The pressure is done. It's like they just got hit by a storm. In fact, this is a great way to look at it. Think of it as a cloaked HT with a range 5 storm on autocast. How do you harass that base? HOW? HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE HOW STUPID THE FUCKING MINE IS?????? | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On October 15 2012 14:19 Kharnage wrote: How seriously stupid are you? Keep 1 muta within vision of hte factory and 100% of your focus on watching for the widow mine when it burrows? How does he then inject? How doe the muta player take advantage the 'pressure' is intended to create? Look, stop being a total jackass and think for a moment how a game actually plays out. Either you scout mutas on route or when they fly into your base and you go into crisis management. Move some marines, run your scv's etc. A few workers die, then the mutas back off for a bit and the zerg player does some actions in their own base such as injects, putting up a 4th base, start some upgrades and a round of drones. Then their focus returns to their muta flock which then returns to harass a min line, or a depot, or whatever they can do without putting the entire flock at risk. The cunning zergy sees some marines covering one place, moves to attack an apparantly vulnerable location and boom, 1 muta dies, half the flock loses 40hp (half health). The harassment is done. The pressure is done. It's like they just got hit by a storm. In fact, this is a great way to look at it. Think of it as a cloaked HT with a range 5 storm on autocast. How do you harass that base? HOW? HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE HOW STUPID THE FUCKING MINE IS?????? Gosh. If only Zerg had easy access to a flying detector that could see any burrowed mines from 11 range away AND had enough HP to tank a hit, if it came to it, without dying! | ||
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Kharnage
Australia920 Posts
On October 15 2012 14:24 pure.Wasted wrote: Gosh. If only Zerg had easy access to a flying detector that could see any burrowed mines from 11 range away AND had enough HP to tank a hit, if it came to it, without dying! Harassment is all about getting in quickly, doing some damage, and getting out before the other player reacts. Half the time you need to be able to do it BLINDLY while you manage an engagement in the middle of the map or while defending your own fucking base. You lose a LOT of that window of opportunity if you have to lead with an overseer to 'tank' a mine shot. Don't forget, even if you spot the mine, you can't engage it with range 4 mutas. Not only that, but all shift queue harass while defending your base is over. You're pushing my front so i queue my warp prism to drop 4 zealots in your mineral line and fly away while all my focus is on FF and warping in units to try and hold the front. Pointless. 1 mine kills WP, no harass. 0 focus required from terran player. Shift queue mutas to attack mineral line while microing ling/bling at the zerg 3rd. Forget that. 1 Mine, mutas dead. At no attention cost to the terran. None. Not even a big investment. 75/25 and no backstab options. Basically harassing a terran base is much much MUCH harder than before, requiring total focus, with detector units for it to even be viable at minimal cost to the terran. Hell, watch the Day9 on qxc using mines (daily #511). One of the questions at the end of part 3 is 'Can you see a way for air harass, drops etc to work with the current build of the widow mine?' and his response 'Yeah, it's gonna compeltely shut it down. Yup, don't build air vs terran.' | ||
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NicolBolas
United States1388 Posts
On October 15 2012 14:39 Kharnage wrote: Harassment is all about getting in quickly, doing some damage, and getting out before the other player reacts. Half the time you need to be able to do it BLINDLY while you manage an engagement in the middle of the map or while defending your own fucking base. You lose a LOT of that window of opportunity if you have to lead with an overseer to 'tank' a mine shot. Don't forget, even if you spot the mine, you can't engage it with range 4 mutas. Not only that, but all shift queue harass while defending your base is over. You're pushing my front so i queue my warp prism to drop 4 zealots in your mineral line and fly away while all my focus is on FF and warping in units to try and hold the front. Pointless. 1 mine kills WP, no harass. 0 focus required from terran player. Shift queue mutas to attack mineral line while microing ling/bling at the zerg 3rd. Forget that. 1 Mine, mutas dead. At no attention cost to the terran. None. Not even a big investment. 75/25 and no backstab options. Basically harassing a terran base is much much MUCH harder than before, requiring total focus, with detector units for it to even be viable at minimal cost to the terran. This is incredibly hyperbolic and simply factually incorrect. 1 mine cannot kill a Warp Prism. Prism's have a total of 200 HP; they can take a mine hit. Similarly, 1 mine will not 1-hit-kill all of your Mutas. Mines only do 40 AoE damage; they do 160 only to the target. So even if you're stupid and decide to fly into the Terran base with all your Muta's stacked (rather than attempting to spread them), one mine isn't going to kill your stack. It'd take at least three. So in both cases, 1 mine doesn't make you lose. Furthermore, you can employ micro to avoid this. You can send one Muta in to absorb the mine hit, thus avoiding the splash, then send the rest. And even if you we assumed that a mine shot insta-killed all Mutalisks, one mine cannot cover an entire mineral patch. Mutas will still be able to pick off workers from the sides. Similarly, there's no way a Terran could completely fortify all possible avenues for a WP to go in. Remember: it takes 40 seconds for them to shoot again. In conclusion, no: 75/25 does not instantly free the Terrans from harassment. They'll have to spend much more on that. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On October 15 2012 14:39 Kharnage wrote: Harassment is all about getting in quickly, doing some damage, and getting out before the other player reacts. Half the time you need to be able to do it BLINDLY while you manage an engagement in the middle of the map or while defending your own fucking base. You lose a LOT of that window of opportunity if you have to lead with an overseer to 'tank' a mine shot. Don't forget, even if you spot the mine, you can't engage it with range 4 mutas. Not only that, but all shift queue harass while defending your base is over. You're pushing my front so i queue my warp prism to drop 4 zealots in your mineral line and fly away while all my focus is on FF and warping in units to try and hold the front. Pointless. 1 mine kills WP, no harass. 0 focus required from terran player. Shift queue mutas to attack mineral line while microing ling/bling at the zerg 3rd. Forget that. 1 Mine, mutas dead. At no attention cost to the terran. None. Not even a big investment. 75/25 and no backstab options. Basically harassing a terran base is much much MUCH harder than before, requiring total focus, with detector units for it to even be viable at minimal cost to the terran. This is what pros are capable of. And you're whining about the loss of queue harass? Really? Really? Would it actually surprise you to learn that I'm not the least bit sympathetic to the plight of those who can't order one unit to move ahead of another one? If Z suspects T has a mine, lead with an Overlord or an Overseer, problem solved. Period. Seriously, any Z will have an Ovie there already for scouting purposes, just push in 5 seconds before you go in with Mutas, soak up the damage, and for forty seconds that mine is useless. And the Ovie isn't even dead. Your example from beginning to end has "gold league" written all over it. "0 focus required from terran player." The Mine is so easily negated, the T will have to focus on it to get any use out of it, except if his opponent is so stressed out that he can't properly multitask. But poor multitasking should be punished. | ||
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TheLunatic
309 Posts
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