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On October 14 2012 18:43 GARcher wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 18:40 DeCoup wrote:On October 14 2012 18:37 GARcher wrote:On October 14 2012 18:35 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 14 2012 18:28 GARcher wrote:On October 14 2012 18:24 DeCoup wrote:On October 14 2012 17:43 GARcher wrote:On October 14 2012 17:39 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 14 2012 17:27 GARcher wrote:On October 14 2012 17:24 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
[quote]
No...
You scan the terrain your medivacs will fly past enroute to the LZ (landing zone), then place widow mines two at a time along the route.
This is actually a good thing as it'll catch mid-game vikings trying to stop an incoming drop.
I see what you are misunderstanding now. It doesn't matter if the path to the opponent's base is clear. As long as there are mines AT THE OPPONENT'S base, the drop won't work because the Medivac will get blown up. That's what the the money scan / macro OC is for. I scan and see mines. So what? Still doesn't change the fact that mines shut down drops. Scan then drop a Mule or 2 to detonate the mines? Mules aren't Banelings. And it's 100 energy on Orbital. I think that's his point, I've seen zerglings kill widow mines (during cool down), with no problem. Therefore after the MULE is destroyed, you can safely drop ON TOP OF the widow mine. At which point you HAVE to commit and do damage or else you will be behind. All of that forced by 75 minerals and 25 gas. Keep in mind that a MULE only trigger 1 mine due to smart AI. Terrans exploit macro orbitals starting very early in the game now. I don't think it is a problem to be forced to use additional scans and mule drops in order to break into minefields. Bio is VERY mineral heavy. Every scan you use up is a MULE you aren't getting and every Orbital you put up that's not at a non saturated expansion is 11 marines you aren't getting. The medivac thing is excluding the chance that it will get blown up halfway across the map by hidden mines.
Correct. It's called energy tension. You just have to make sure you make the mule sacrifice worth it.
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On October 14 2012 18:45 DeCoup wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 18:43 GARcher wrote:On October 14 2012 18:40 DeCoup wrote:On October 14 2012 18:37 GARcher wrote:On October 14 2012 18:35 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 14 2012 18:28 GARcher wrote:On October 14 2012 18:24 DeCoup wrote:On October 14 2012 17:43 GARcher wrote:On October 14 2012 17:39 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 14 2012 17:27 GARcher wrote:
[quote]
I see what you are misunderstanding now. It doesn't matter if the path to the opponent's base is clear. As long as there are mines AT THE OPPONENT'S base, the drop won't work because the Medivac will get blown up.
That's what the the money scan / macro OC is for. I scan and see mines. So what? Still doesn't change the fact that mines shut down drops. Scan then drop a Mule or 2 to detonate the mines? Mules aren't Banelings. And it's 100 energy on Orbital. I think that's his point, I've seen zerglings kill widow mines (during cool down), with no problem. Therefore after the MULE is destroyed, you can safely drop ON TOP OF the widow mine. At which point you HAVE to commit and do damage or else you will be behind. All of that forced by 75 minerals and 25 gas. Keep in mind that a MULE only trigger 1 mine due to smart AI. Terrans exploit macro orbitals starting very early in the game now. I don't think it is a problem to be forced to use additional scans and mule drops in order to break into minefields. Bio is VERY mineral heavy. Every scan you use up is a MULE you aren't getting and every Orbital you put up that's not at a non saturated expansion is 11 marines you aren't getting. The medivac thing is excluding the chance that it will get blown up halfway across the map by hidden mines. Correct. It's called energy tension. You just have to make sure you make the mule sacrifice worth it.
Then we come back to the question: why even go bio? The meching player can force the bio player into having to do much much more with just a few mines.
People will just not play bio at all because it's not worth it. Eventually it forces stale matchups like TvP and PvP.
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On October 14 2012 18:50 GARcher wrote:
Then we come back to the question: why even go bio? The meching player can force the bio player into having to do much much more with just a few mines.
People will just not play bio at all because it's not worth it. Eventually it forces stale matchups like TvP and PvP.
Now it just sounds like q_q.
Yes, I agree, 1 medivac/stim-marine drop rush in TvT is dead.
The widow mine has made bio vs. mech metagame level. No longer will a meching Terran be worried having to turn around to hold his base from being destroyed because 2 medivacs full of stimmed marines dropped un-noticed.
A bio player now has to put more planning and care as much as a meching player.
Choosing his LZ, checking for mines with a MULE drop and having to make the drop count.
Love the MULE drop idea, because they can't attack, there's no warning for the opponent even if the mine goes off.
Edit: I have seen MorroW successfully switch to bio from marine/widow mine opening when he suspects his opponent going full mech play. He's very good. Puts widow mines between opponent's base and the watch tower then when he sees mech build begin moving out and kill both the widow mine at the entrance and his marine on the watch tower, he drops the main with MMM + banshee + viking.
This is very good play very likely from his past experience as pro- Zerg, where it is NORMAL to maintain vision of enemy movement at all times.
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On October 14 2012 17:11 GARcher wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 16:59 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 14 2012 16:09 GARcher wrote:On October 14 2012 15:01 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 14 2012 14:52 GARcher wrote:On October 14 2012 13:17 dragonblade369 wrote:On October 14 2012 10:03 GARcher wrote:On October 14 2012 09:59 Qikz wrote:I do agree that the Widow Mines needs to be nerfed or removed and give Terran an actual unit and not some gimmicky crap. What? Widow Mines so far are by far the best unit in the expansion in terms of being designed really well without borrowing ideas from other units. I sincerely hope that you are trolling. Widow mines are amazing. It creates a lot of positional play and makes TvX an interesting dynamism No it doesn't. It makes Bio TvT completely obsolete. No, it just means A-move across the map with your MMM is obsolete. It takes between 3-5 scans to move across most maps. Then secure your attack paths with widow mines of your own. There, not obsolete again. I don't know what kind of maps you play to have 3-5 scans cover base distances. Ravens are very expensive and come out relatively late. Mines shuts down drops too which is a big part of playing bio. Simply put, Widow Mines take away mobility which is the sole advantage of MMM. Also if you need Widow Mines to secure attack paths then there is no point in going bio because you are splitting resources into 2 tech paths. You will be better off just going straight mech. It's called a macro OC. Widow mines have changed the dynamics of Terran. Deal with it. Marauders are range 6. Now you're just exaggerating. Placing two widow mines near or around the place you wish to drop is total of 300 min, 100 gas, less than two siege tanks. So I have to blow all my energy on scans just so my army doesn't get blown up by something that cost 75 minerals and 25 gas while the opponent can mule all day. Yep, it does change the dynamics. Marauders are range 6 so what? They still can't do anything if there's no detection which still comes back to blowing scans just to avoid mines. Keep in mind they aren't Banelings either. Banelings die when they explode while mines don't. What do you mean placing mines at the place I'm going to drop? You aren't making any sense. The mines have to get there somehow and I doubt any good player will allow 2 enemy mines in his or her base.
That's because Widow mines don't have high dps, aren't extremely mobile, have a set-up time, and have to be stationary to attack. You have to understand the fundamentals of checks and balances before you make posts on this subject.
Yes board-control units require a reaction from the other player; no you can't a-move marines/lings/zealots across the map if board-control is out. No this is not a bad thing, as it creates more strategic decisions from both players. Common sense.
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On October 14 2012 19:09 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 18:50 GARcher wrote:
Then we come back to the question: why even go bio? The meching player can force the bio player into having to do much much more with just a few mines.
People will just not play bio at all because it's not worth it. Eventually it forces stale matchups like TvP and PvP. Now it just sounds like q_q. Yes, I agree, 1 medivac/stim-marine drop rush in TvT is dead. The widow mine has made bio vs. mech metagame level. No longer will a meching Terran be worried having to turn around to hold his base from being destroyed because 2 medivacs full of stimmed marines dropped un-noticed. A bio player now has to put more planning and care as much as a meching player. Choosing his LZ, checking for mines with a MULE drop and having to make the drop count. Love the MULE drop idea, because they can't attack, there's no warning for the opponent even if the mine goes off. Edit: I have seen MorroW successfully switch to bio from marine/widow mine opening when he suspects his opponent going full mech play.
So basically I sound like a QQer to someone who thinks Banshees are going to solve the mine problem if you are playing bio vs mech.
And what? Stimmed Marine Medivac is called a rush now? What maps do you play? Xelnaga caverns?
In no way is the Widow Mine making the match up level. Saying that Bio requires no care is just stupid. Drops is essentially what you have to do against a meching Terran. That's why you need to be aware of the map instead of blindly leapfrogging tanks. What you are suggesting is forcing bio to bumrushing into Siege Tanks.
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On October 14 2012 19:17 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 17:11 GARcher wrote:On October 14 2012 16:59 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 14 2012 16:09 GARcher wrote:On October 14 2012 15:01 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 14 2012 14:52 GARcher wrote:On October 14 2012 13:17 dragonblade369 wrote:On October 14 2012 10:03 GARcher wrote:On October 14 2012 09:59 Qikz wrote:I do agree that the Widow Mines needs to be nerfed or removed and give Terran an actual unit and not some gimmicky crap. What? Widow Mines so far are by far the best unit in the expansion in terms of being designed really well without borrowing ideas from other units. I sincerely hope that you are trolling. Widow mines are amazing. It creates a lot of positional play and makes TvX an interesting dynamism No it doesn't. It makes Bio TvT completely obsolete. No, it just means A-move across the map with your MMM is obsolete. It takes between 3-5 scans to move across most maps. Then secure your attack paths with widow mines of your own. There, not obsolete again. I don't know what kind of maps you play to have 3-5 scans cover base distances. Ravens are very expensive and come out relatively late. Mines shuts down drops too which is a big part of playing bio. Simply put, Widow Mines take away mobility which is the sole advantage of MMM. Also if you need Widow Mines to secure attack paths then there is no point in going bio because you are splitting resources into 2 tech paths. You will be better off just going straight mech. It's called a macro OC. Widow mines have changed the dynamics of Terran. Deal with it. Marauders are range 6. Now you're just exaggerating. Placing two widow mines near or around the place you wish to drop is total of 300 min, 100 gas, less than two siege tanks. So I have to blow all my energy on scans just so my army doesn't get blown up by something that cost 75 minerals and 25 gas while the opponent can mule all day. Yep, it does change the dynamics. Marauders are range 6 so what? They still can't do anything if there's no detection which still comes back to blowing scans just to avoid mines. Keep in mind they aren't Banelings either. Banelings die when they explode while mines don't. What do you mean placing mines at the place I'm going to drop? You aren't making any sense. The mines have to get there somehow and I doubt any good player will allow 2 enemy mines in his or her base. That's because Widow mines don't have high dps, aren't extremely mobile, have a set-up time, and have to be stationary to attack. You have to understand the fundamentals of checks and balances before you make posts on this subject. Yes board-control units require a reaction from the other player; no you can't a-move marines/lings/zealots across the map if board-control is out. No this is not a bad thing, as it creates more strategic decisions from both players. Common sense.
The low DPS is offset by the fact that the mines are cheap, can be reactored out, does huge single target damage, and has huge splash.
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So I think we are all in agreeance that there is no issue.+ Show Spoiler +Except for my spelling or usage of agreeance
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On October 14 2012 19:23 GARcher wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 19:17 DemigodcelpH wrote:On October 14 2012 17:11 GARcher wrote:On October 14 2012 16:59 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 14 2012 16:09 GARcher wrote:On October 14 2012 15:01 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 14 2012 14:52 GARcher wrote:On October 14 2012 13:17 dragonblade369 wrote:On October 14 2012 10:03 GARcher wrote:On October 14 2012 09:59 Qikz wrote:
[quote]
What? Widow Mines so far are by far the best unit in the expansion in terms of being designed really well without borrowing ideas from other units. I sincerely hope that you are trolling. Widow mines are amazing. It creates a lot of positional play and makes TvX an interesting dynamism No it doesn't. It makes Bio TvT completely obsolete. No, it just means A-move across the map with your MMM is obsolete. It takes between 3-5 scans to move across most maps. Then secure your attack paths with widow mines of your own. There, not obsolete again. I don't know what kind of maps you play to have 3-5 scans cover base distances. Ravens are very expensive and come out relatively late. Mines shuts down drops too which is a big part of playing bio. Simply put, Widow Mines take away mobility which is the sole advantage of MMM. Also if you need Widow Mines to secure attack paths then there is no point in going bio because you are splitting resources into 2 tech paths. You will be better off just going straight mech. It's called a macro OC. Widow mines have changed the dynamics of Terran. Deal with it. Marauders are range 6. Now you're just exaggerating. Placing two widow mines near or around the place you wish to drop is total of 300 min, 100 gas, less than two siege tanks. So I have to blow all my energy on scans just so my army doesn't get blown up by something that cost 75 minerals and 25 gas while the opponent can mule all day. Yep, it does change the dynamics. Marauders are range 6 so what? They still can't do anything if there's no detection which still comes back to blowing scans just to avoid mines. Keep in mind they aren't Banelings either. Banelings die when they explode while mines don't. What do you mean placing mines at the place I'm going to drop? You aren't making any sense. The mines have to get there somehow and I doubt any good player will allow 2 enemy mines in his or her base. That's because Widow mines don't have high dps, aren't extremely mobile, have a set-up time, and have to be stationary to attack. You have to understand the fundamentals of checks and balances before you make posts on this subject. Yes board-control units require a reaction from the other player; no you can't a-move marines/lings/zealots across the map if board-control is out. No this is not a bad thing, as it creates more strategic decisions from both players. Common sense. The low DPS is offset by the fact that the mines are cheap, can be reactored out, does huge single target damage, and has huge splash.
150 min and 50 gas, 2 supply for two widow mines that do 160 dmg and 40 splash every FORTY SECONDS.
Do you know what buildings finish under 40 seconds?
Spore Crawler 30s
Missile Turret 25s
Photon Cannon 40s
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Who were thinks entomb is fun to use / to go aggainst ? I don't understand why Blizzard hasn't scrapped that ability yet. For me it's boring as heck.
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On October 14 2012 21:49 Apolo wrote:
Who were thinks entomb is fun to use / to go aggainst ? I don't understand why Blizzard hasn't scrapped that ability yet. For me it's boring as heck.
At the present strength it is does inflict significant damage enough to consider it a threat.
1 min is extremely long.
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bleh i feel they are only moving away further and further from getting a good game.
Widow mine was too strong early on thus they enable detection for P and Z earlier.. That is a TERRIBLE way to go about things.. DT and banshees against protoss are pretty much useless now since practically free detection around your nexus is all that you need.. Plus protoss has free scouting with hallucinate now and still the great scouting options of oracle and observer.. I don't like losing to some all-ins you couldn't see but getting virtually free scouting from the midgame onwards is stupid..
New spot for the tempest is cool and I like the change even though it may cause some problems. It gives P quick access to a siege weapon which could provide some really cool gameplay, perhaps make it even able to punish walloffs and the like. It's very likely it will be broken at some maps though at first just because it's too easy to secure vision, proxy stargate with oracle + tempests or just tempests while streaming hallucinated phoenix from home seems an easy way to harass at first. Especially zerg with no access to air easily might have problems with this.
If they continue this path with balancing scouting/detection around some of the terran options they need to at least buff the other invisible units. DT and banshee's are mostly a joke now as widow mines and purify counter them without even having to know really if they went for banshee/dt on time. It's looking now these units will only have a minor role against zerg which doesn't have that good free detection. Right now I rather see zerg detection buffed a bit then but the cloaked units like dt and banshee also buffed so they are cheaper to get, for example merge dark shrine and templar archives into one building and reduce the cost of cloak significantly..
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It will be very interesting to see how entomb plays out in the lower leagues. Im afraid it will be to strong if it stays in its current form.
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Has anyone tabled the resulting minerals not harvested (lost) from an entomb vs what would be lost if your miners were simply destroyed? Including reproducing the miners? Because after an entomb is done you can go back to full mining as your miners are stll intact.
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I'm currently having the most trouble dealing with terrans going hellion/widow mine/banshee in TvZ. I can hold it fine on 2 base but I have no clue how to hold my 3rd against it. I know I probably need better creep spread but damn, that shit is tough, I dunno how I feel about widow mines.
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On October 14 2012 15:14 larse wrote:
Why you people just don't get it?
The revelation change and the purify change are to give protoss earlier means to deal with widow mine. It's the same logic with the spore change. Of course, revelation with detection is great, but it can't deal with the new threat of the early widow mine. You can't give purify detection while keeping revelation the same. That will give protoss too many means of detection. So it's a hard decision that you must give one thing detection but cut the detection of the other unit. The change doesn't look simplistic but it gets the job done.
But the hallucination change is stupid. Now protoss has more ways to do blink timing. You can keep your mothership core at home for defense (it detects clock as well), while using hallucination pheonix to give high ground vision. Before this patch, at least you have to bring the mothership core with your stalker to do blink timing. Now doing blink timing is safe and more effective with hallucination pheonix. Sincerely hope they revert this change.
It would be a lot easier to not destroy the game because of such an early cloaked unit though, especially one that snipes detectors easily. I would rather they switch the changes back because in real fights, not remotely near your Nexus, Observers die instantly. If they want to see Revelation used, they're going in the wrong direction.
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So I'm watching White Ra stream, and I'm really liking the new patch, granted White Ra brings some awesomeness all by himself. Still, I'm loving seeing a viable mech versus protoss and the widow mines no longer look stupid broken.
The new tempest seems much better and I like seeing the more viable air play to counter the mech.
Mmmm I'm also liking PvP, White Ra is doing well in holding fast expos, makes me wonder if there is going to be a big metagame shift there. If the tempest works as a reasonable collosus counter, then imo blizzard has fixed PvP's worst issues.
I'm still hoping for voidray and DT changes, but those can happen later. I really don't mind that blizzard is removing some of the "if you don't have detection and they rush cloak its GG" aspect of the game.
I'm a bit worried for zerg's early game, but they are the most control/late game style race anyway.I'm hoping with time they will be able to adapt to the MsC and window mine, if not then I wonder how blizzard can change their early/ early mid game to be better?
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On October 15 2012 00:43 DontNerfInfestors wrote:
Widow mine still OP
If widow mines adds fun and awesomeness to the game I'm all for them. Don't care about balance in a beta, it WILL be changed. Only care about what the new stuff brings to the game. This is how blizzard should go about when the beta is active: fun gameplay. Worry about balance later.
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After playing that patch I feel that zergs are forced to go Spire every single ZvP. Now when the Tempest is tier 2 there is no way to deal with it without Spire. That is pretty dumb if you ask me... Maybe they need to lower the range now when tempest is tier 2.
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This patch hit just some hours after I installed the beta. The widow mine is still strong but fragile. I guess the real dificulty people have dealing with it is that you dont need tech to make it, it can be added to any standard terran composition.
I havent't seen good usage of the Tempest yet, everyone just tries to rush to it instead of making it part of the composition after you're at 2 or 3 bases. But even then, I guess it'd be accidentally countered by Vikings.
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EPT
