EPTbam
HotS Balance Update #6 10/12/12 - Page 20
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Sablar
Sweden880 Posts
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zenkicker
257 Posts
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Halozination
69 Posts
On October 14 2012 13:17 dragonblade369 wrote: Widow mines are amazing. It creates a lot of positional play and makes TvX an interesting dynamism Playing as t with them felt nice but playing against them feels just like horrible gameplay. They restrict the player who plays vs them just way too much in what he can do. You can't do early pressure or allin aggression, you can't do harrasment, you can't even move your army around freely instead you need to move it pixel by pixel or camp it in your base which makes it just horrible gameplay. Even if you have detection with your army this is true because detection usually moves along a different path or is faster or slower than your army. So what can happen out on the map or close to your opponents base is that your detection gets killed by the mines and you need to go back home and camp or your army and detection are not close enough together (different movement speed or path) and a lot of units get killed or you encounter a mine field with detection and you can only push into it with very few units extremely slowly to avoid losing many units but if retreats mines slowly this slowpush can take ages. Fact is that you have better things to do than to invest all your time into killing a few mines so its better to stay home and camp. | ||
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GARcher
Canada294 Posts
On October 14 2012 13:17 dragonblade369 wrote: Widow mines are amazing. It creates a lot of positional play and makes TvX an interesting dynamism No it doesn't. It makes Bio TvT completely obsolete. | ||
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Dealer009
Canada3 Posts
It simply costs way too much in defenses to protect against them early game. The spore without evo chamber helps this a little. How it works now, if you scout it perfectly you can make enough defenses to hold it off, but you've likely spent at least as much as the P to make a stargate. I still see no way of preventing falling behind. If you scout a stargate, assume entomb is coming, build at least one spore at main and expansion and have queen on patrol, you won't kill oracle and you will lose tons of mining time. Does anyone know how many minerals exactly are lost if someone puts their drones back on minerals exactly when the free up? Now you can add a spine crawler or two at each mineral patch to help with the entomb shells, but it still takes a long time. Do the emtomb shells have armor because it should be removed to make drones microing on them to attack more effective. Yeah entomb is super OP. The only thing I could see working is rushing muta at a similar cost as a stargate but you have to tech to lair extremely quickly - basically means a one-base opening which also puts you behind. | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On October 14 2012 14:52 GARcher wrote: No it doesn't. It makes Bio TvT completely obsolete. No, it just means A-move across the map with your MMM is obsolete. It takes between 3-5 scans to move across most maps. Then secure your attack paths with widow mines of your own. There, not obsolete again. | ||
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larse
1611 Posts
The revelation change and the purify change are to give protoss earlier means to deal with widow mine. It's the same logic with the spore change. Of course, revelation with detection is great, but it can't deal with the new threat of the early widow mine. You can't give purify detection while keeping revelation the same. That will give protoss too many means of detection. So it's a hard decision that you must give one thing detection but cut the detection of the other unit. The change doesn't look simplistic but it gets the job done. But the hallucination change is stupid. Now protoss has more ways to do blink timing. You can keep your mothership core at home for defense (it detects clock as well), while using hallucination pheonix to give high ground vision. Before this patch, at least you have to bring the mothership core with your stalker to do blink timing. Now doing blink timing is safe and more effective with hallucination pheonix. Sincerely hope they revert this change. | ||
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TheLunatic
309 Posts
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Phoenix2003
126 Posts
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GARcher
Canada294 Posts
On October 14 2012 15:01 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: No, it just means A-move across the map with your MMM is obsolete. It takes between 3-5 scans to move across most maps. Then secure your attack paths with widow mines of your own. There, not obsolete again. I don't know what kind of maps you play to have 3-5 scans cover base distances. Ravens are very expensive and come out relatively late. Mines shuts down drops too which is a big part of playing bio. Simply put, Widow Mines take away mobility which is the sole advantage of MMM. Also if you need Widow Mines to secure attack paths then there is no point in going bio because you are splitting resources into 2 tech paths. You will be better off just going straight mech. | ||
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Crawdad
614 Posts
On October 14 2012 15:14 larse wrote: Why you people just don't get it? The revelation change and the purify change are to give protoss earlier means to deal with widow mine. It's the same logic with the spore change. Of course, revelation with detection is great, but it can't deal with the new threat of the early widow mine. You can't give purify detection while keeping revelation the same. That will give protoss too many means of detection. So it's a hard decision that you must give one thing detection but cut the detection of the other unit. The change doesn't look simplistic but it gets the job done. Okay, so how are you going to deal with Widow mines as you move across the map? How do you deal with Swarm Hosts? Proxy Nexus all the way to your opponent's base? Oh wait, that's right, you just have to go Observers like ALWAYS. Revelation gave me some faint hope that Robo would not remain all-powerful, that we may see Stargate openers, but now... | ||
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larse
1611 Posts
On October 14 2012 16:12 Crawdad wrote: Okay, so how are you going to deal with Widow mines as you move across the map? How do you deal with Swarm Hosts? Proxy Nexus all the way to your opponent's base? Oh wait, that's right, you just have to go Observers like ALWAYS. Revelation gave me some faint hope that Robo would not remain all-powerful, that we may see Stargate openers, but now... I mean early detection. I didn't talk anything beyond early widow mine aggression. | ||
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obsid
United States389 Posts
On October 14 2012 15:14 larse wrote: Why you people just don't get it? The revelation change and the purify change are to give protoss earlier means to deal with widow mine. It's the same logic with the spore change. Of course, revelation with detection is great, but it can't deal with the new threat of the early widow mine. You can't give purify detection while keeping revelation the same. That will give protoss too many means of detection. So it's a hard decision that you must give one thing detection but cut the detection of the other unit. The change doesn't look simplistic but it gets the job done. So why is that too many means of detection? Clearly if robo play has observer+purify for detection why cant stargate play have oracle+purify? How is that too much detection? | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On October 14 2012 16:09 GARcher wrote: I don't know what kind of maps you play to have 3-5 scans cover base distances. Ravens are very expensive and come out relatively late. Mines shuts down drops too which is a big part of playing bio. Simply put, Widow Mines take away mobility which is the sole advantage of MMM. Also if you need Widow Mines to secure attack paths then there is no point in going bio because you are splitting resources into 2 tech paths. You will be better off just going straight mech. It's called a macro OC. Widow mines have changed the dynamics of Terran. Deal with it. Marauders are range 6. Now you're just exaggerating. Placing two widow mines near or around the place you wish to drop is total of 300 min, 100 gas, less than two siege tanks. | ||
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larse
1611 Posts
On October 14 2012 16:53 obsid wrote: So why is that too many means of detection? Clearly if robo play has observer+purify for detection why cant stargate play have oracle+purify? How is that too much detection? If you count the means of detection of each race, u will know why. | ||
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Lazyer
United States394 Posts
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GARcher
Canada294 Posts
On October 14 2012 16:59 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: It's called a macro OC. Widow mines have changed the dynamics of Terran. Deal with it. Marauders are range 6. Now you're just exaggerating. Placing two widow mines near or around the place you wish to drop is total of 300 min, 100 gas, less than two siege tanks. So I have to blow all my energy on scans just so my army doesn't get blown up by something that cost 75 minerals and 25 gas while the opponent can mule all day. Yep, it does change the dynamics. Marauders are range 6 so what? They still can't do anything if there's no detection which still comes back to blowing scans just to avoid mines. Keep in mind they aren't Banelings either. Banelings die when they explode while mines don't. What do you mean placing mines at the place I'm going to drop? You aren't making any sense. The mines have to get there somehow and I doubt any good player will allow 2 enemy mines in his or her base. | ||
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obsid
United States389 Posts
On October 14 2012 16:59 larse wrote: If you count the means of detection of each race, u will know why. So Zerg has overseers, toss has observers, terran has raven. These are the only constant mobile detection each of the races have. They all have static defense detection with spores, cannons, turrets. And they all had units that can detect with a mana base ability fungal/scan/revelation. Purify being like a super cannon with additional static defense (non mobile) doesnt add so much detection they needed to remove revelation.... | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On October 14 2012 17:11 GARcher wrote: So I have to blow all my energy on scans just so my army doesn't get blown up by something that cost 75 minerals and 25 gas while the opponent can mule all day. Yep, it does change the dynamics. Marauders are range 6 so what? They still can't do anything if there's no detection which still comes back to blowing scans just to avoid mines. Keep in mind they aren't Banelings either. Banelings die when they explode while mines don't. What do you mean placing mines at the place I'm going to drop? You aren't making any sense. The mines have to get there somehow and I doubt any good player will allow 2 enemy mines in his or her base. No... You scan the terrain your medivacs will fly past enroute to the LZ (landing zone), then place widow mines two at a time along the route. This is actually a good thing as it'll catch mid-game vikings trying to stop an incoming drop. | ||
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habeck
1120 Posts
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