On October 07 2012 22:23 zimms wrote: ridiculous. infestors counter everything, have implicit detection, do insane damage and are cloaked have burrowed movement.
Kidding aside, I can't imagine that the current widow mine will make it to release. Now you just run them in the opponents army and burrow in their faces and watch everything die. They don't behave like mines at all.
On October 07 2012 22:10 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: ridiculous. widow mines counter everything, have implicit detection, do insane damage and are cloaked. pretty much deny any agression Z/P can do and can be used offensive also. blizzard is trolling ... its like a cloaked super-baneling with built in detection. Widow mines should also be able to hop cliffs .. or just make them air units
Let's remove the cloack, then it's something like the infestor
IMAGINE guys that terran has someting strong!!! Imagine!!! Nerf it NOW, but don't touch our infestor!
On October 07 2012 22:10 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: ridiculous. widow mines counter everything, have implicit detection, do insane damage and are cloaked. pretty much deny any agression Z/P can do and can be used offensive also. blizzard is trolling ... its like a cloaked super-baneling with built in detection. Widow mines should also be able to hop cliffs .. or just make them air units
Let's remove the cloack, then it's something like the infestor
IMAGINE guys that terran has someting strong!!! Imagine!!! Nerf it NOW, but don't touch our infestor!
On October 07 2012 22:10 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: ridiculous. widow mines counter everything, have implicit detection, do insane damage and are cloaked. pretty much deny any agression Z/P can do and can be used offensive also. blizzard is trolling ... its like a cloaked super-baneling with built in detection. Widow mines should also be able to hop cliffs .. or just make them air units
You mad
Rise (Z) deals quite well with the widow mines, in fact I'm so happy, widow mines' side effect is that they make hydralisks good now! Unfortunately his bad engagements against Thor/raven/viking/hellion killed his chances of winning.
well that was awful. The spider mine was so great because you could deal with it without detection as well. You could kill the spider mine even if it activated. Hydralisks even cracklings (without dying!) could kill mine fields without detection. And brood war didn't have this horrible clumped up pathing. How are you going to effectively split units if you want to do a counter attack with some zerglings? You can only split them in smaller 'balls' as opposed to brood war where zerglings could 'effectively' deal with minefields because you could spread them out so well. And atleast your mutalisks could deal with them if all else fails.
I can't see the widow mine working out like this, because imo the only reason this game lasted so long was because qxc's macro was god awful.
I don't know about hydralisks, they got raped pretty hard by hellions and they're pretty gas heavy and because terran can now deny expansions...
On October 07 2012 22:10 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: ridiculous. widow mines counter everything, have implicit detection, do insane damage and are cloaked. pretty much deny any agression Z/P can do and can be used offensive also. blizzard is trolling ... its like a cloaked super-baneling with built in detection. Widow mines should also be able to hop cliffs .. or just make them air units
Let's remove the cloack, then it's something like the infestor
IMAGINE guys that terran has someting strong!!! Imagine!!! Nerf it NOW, but don't touch our infestor!
Stop it. Just STOP with those "Terran is weak and underpowered!" QQ already. Terran has great units, just because it doesn't have good tier 3 doesn't mean that other Terran units are weak...
And most of the Zerg players want Infestor reworked because right now it is answer to everything, and make game stale and not fun.
I like the idea of the widow mine, but it is far too powerful for when it comes out. Each attack from one is basically a Psi Storm. And the Widow Mine is almost as fast as a zergling, and can cloak. They say they took away the Oracle's cloaking field ability because it was available too early? Right now a single widow mine is better than a cloaking Oracle. And they only cost 75/25.
I think Blizzard went a little overboard with this one. I just don't understand how they can be so nonchalant about giving terran a stupidly powerful unit, while they are stupidly careful about giving toss new things, like the latest Oracle ability. Come on, 3minerals/3damage to a building, channeled for 50 energy? People would actually try out the new ability if they made it remotely powerful.
On October 07 2012 23:24 Fig wrote: I like the idea of the widow mine, but it is far too powerful for when it comes out. Each attack from one is basically a Psi Storm. And the Widow Mine is almost as fast as a zergling, and can cloak. They say they took away the Oracle's cloaking field ability because it was available too early? Right now a single widow mine is better than a cloaking Oracle. And they only cost 72/25.
I think Blizzard went a little overboard with this one. I just don't understand how they can be so nonchalant about giving terran a stupidly powerful unit, while they are stupidly careful about giving toss new things, like the latest Oracle ability. Come on, 3minerals/3damage to a building, channeled for 50 energy? People would actually try out the new ability if they made it remotely powerful.
Blizz ideally should go overboard with all the new units/abilities and tone down with patches.
The new widow mine is so much better. Even if the balance needs tweaking, the basic design is infinitely better than the old one. Its not just "a vulture mine, but shittier". Its much more of its own thing. It also fills its intended role of a map control unit thats hard to synergize with many traditional army comps, thereby incentivizing further breakup of "deathball" play. Plus the "flavor" of hitting air makes much more sense for a launcher than it does for the old design
Ok, after watching Dragons stream for a while I have one concern about the widow mine. From how fast in burrows and unburrows, observers and overseers might have an problem. It looks like it could undeploy and redeploy under a flying detector with a very small window for them to get out of the way.
That isn't a huge deal defense, since that is the mines job, to force you opponent to be careful. But when used aggressively, they could be deployed right under the detecting units and then the player is very limited in how they can removed over mines. I like idea of them being snappy and quick to move around, but the mines might need a cook up time before they can fire after being deployed. It allows them to get cloaked and safe, also also allow the other player to micro their critical units out of the way.
Other than that, the unit looks great. Anything that forcing opponents to flank I'm ok with. I want to seem them used late game with defensive nukes for even further "come at be bro, it will be awesome".
On October 07 2012 23:41 awesomoecalypse wrote: The new widow mine is so much better. Even if the balance needs tweaking, the basic design is infinitely better than the old one. Its not just "a vulture mine, but shittier". Its much more of its own thing. It also fills its intended role of a map control unit thats hard to synergize with many traditional army comps, thereby incentivizing further breakup of "deathball" play. Plus the "flavor" of hitting air makes much more sense for a launcher than it does for the old design
On October 07 2012 23:41 awesomoecalypse wrote: The new widow mine is so much better. Even if the balance needs tweaking, the basic design is infinitely better than the old one. Its not just "a vulture mine, but shittier". Its much more of its own thing. It also fills its intended role of a map control unit thats hard to synergize with many traditional army comps, thereby incentivizing further breakup of "deathball" play. Plus the "flavor" of hitting air makes much more sense for a launcher than it does for the old design
Dunno if anyone else has encountered this on the beta ladder, but you can proxy a factor and float it in to your opponents base, make a few(or just one) widow "mines" (they aren't even mines anymore lol), put them in the mineral line and basically insta-gg for toss/zerg because they aren't realistically going to have detection at that point(you can get a mine out around the 6:30-7min mark without even sacrificing that much). This obviously works best on maps where there is a little room in the main to hide the factory.
The unit is completely overpowered for its cost and tech tree level. Definitely needs a revision.
On October 08 2012 00:43 HardlyNever wrote: Dunno if anyone else has encountered this on the beta ladder, but you can proxy a factor and float it in to your opponents base, make a few(or just one) widow "mines" (they aren't even mines anymore lol), put them in the mineral line and basically insta-gg for toss/zerg because they aren't realistically going to have detection at that point(you can get a mine out around the 6:30-7min mark without even sacrificing that much). This obviously works best on maps where there is a little room in the main to hide the factory.
The unit is completely overpowered for its cost and tech tree level. Definitely needs a revision.
I agree, the fix is really to treat it like a cannon rush.
I like seeing the new dynamics widow mines have now, without commenting on balance, i can see from the QXC replays , that its a unit that requires micro, and pays out handelly for that, so good job, more units like that will be appreciated.
EDIT:
On October 08 2012 01:11 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The mine is a missile launcher now? This makes no sense lol. It's like a Terran burrowed Reaver.
What's with the new Oracle ability? It seems dumb...
Yea i guess its like a fast reaver now (lol)
EDIT2nd:
I also find the interaction with the Swarmhost and Widow mine is entertaining and fun
This patch is so stupid. I'm Terran and after playing a lot of matches I feel so terrible, if they keep the Widow Mine this way I will not play Terran in HoTS at all. (have to say I really love how Terran play, especially when they get even more UP everyday)
I don't care if it's OP or not, I believe changing new number is not hard at all, but its design is terrible.
Tell me, what role does this unit play? Let me tell you, this Lurker-Reaver plays every role, including AA. Kinda like Marine heh? At least they can be micro-ed.
This unit can do anything, it's not as good as other units at anything, but it can do anything. It comes out faster and it's very durable and fast. Imo what make Terran so cool that you can do things differently with different result, you can pressure, you can counter enemy: if they do that, you do this, and it's about taking position and mirco and win cost effective.
Now with this unit: Now they make this? More Mines! Oh they make that? Less Mines. Oh they do what? MORE MINES!
This is terrible, Terran has became even worse version of Protoss. The Mine overlap with everything - not it's not better, but it can plays any roles and get enough time for the players to get a mass push. The Mine kill things faster than an MMM ball and can retreat as fast (the DPS is not as good though). The Mine control space and deal more damage, push enemy back faster than Tank (not as constantly though). It's a better AA than Viking (not as long). It does more damage than Hellion (not as good at map control)...
Worst of all, it does not evolve Terran strategy at all, it does not make Mech better, it does not break Tank line, it just does everything Terran could do, faster but not as effective. Ironically it could not do any base defend as people expected.
Wth? Are all Terran feeling so sore after they remove Warhound that they accept to play a game with a simplified and easier Terran?
111 with Mine, Marauder and few Vikings just crush Toss badly. In longer game as long as you have small amount of hellions to walk around and good base defend to prevent warp in it's terrible over. Zerg got delayed so hard that Terran could expand everywhere and the remaining Mines can delay Swarm Host until Terran get enough Tank and do a Doom push before he can reach Hive. The worst MU ought to be TvT. Going Bio with Mine is crazy now, but unless you can finish the game, it's impossible to break the Tank Line. And Mech vs Mech is even more ridiculous.
It's not exciting to watch when you see all its trick. It's coin flipping like a DT but less risky. It can't be micro-ed (the positioning is more like a trick which everyone will learn). You will see it in every builds. It does not have the ability to turn the whole fight excitingly (lose toe whole fight because of mine is like lose the whole fight because of baneling mine, it's juts not as satisfying)
Oh and also it makes the mid games of all MU so much longer. When Terran can't use Mine effective anymore they will use T1 and T2 units to crush enemy (with obviously worse economy) before other race can get to a good high tech army. Mines actually does not support T3 units very well.
So far the Mine is a HUGE backward from original plan (keep Terran alive when go for heavy Tech like Mech, break Tank line...etc). And last but not least, it's freaking boring. You guys watched it on stream and say "Oh cool" but try to play with such units for 6 hours a day and watch it for 3 years of HoTS.
Oh god the old Mines was so fun to use. Can't they lowered its supply down to 1 and add an upgrade like moving underground or add range or something?
There is something really broken about the widow mine. It's broken because it can kill observers without detection and observers are the only thing protoss has to deal with them....
EPT
