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Crawdad
614 Posts
On September 25 2012 17:48 summerloud wrote: i dont get it, if they want firebats why not bring back firebats? Why does everybody suggest this? Why the hell would we want another bio unit? =__= | ||
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
Obs micro then become pivotal to this type of deathball, forcing even more variations of play and unit compositions. | ||
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TheLunatic
309 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12023 Posts
On September 26 2012 00:35 TheLunatic wrote: Does anywone know how long this beta is supposed to last? If the SC2 beta is anything to go by it could be between 3-4 months. | ||
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TheLunatic
309 Posts
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HypertonicHydroponic
437 Posts
On September 25 2012 16:49 Ramiz1989 wrote: LOL, I am not Browders nephew, it is perfectly reasonable for people to want things that make sense, it is just that so many things don't make sense, and majority of people that whines about the Battle Hellion being biological, just close their eyes and ignore majority of them. Those are the double standards I am talking about, it really is the irony, because if anything doesn't make sense, those arguments don't make any sense. They can say "Hey, Battle Hellions are biological now and also mechanical? Well, I don't like it, but we will see how it will turn out.", but no, they are all going "Omg, Wtf, Hellion Biological?!?!? This is retarded, Blizzard don't have a clue what they are doing!!!" like it is the end of the world for them doing it, they are overreacting as usual, don't even want to see what will happen and will it work out. And it is BETA, Blizzard don't afraid to change things that don't work out, after all they've removed the Warhound and brought back the Carrier. About the Bio, I agree, but that is the same thing I've said in my previous post about Mech. Technically, Mech with Ghosts aren't pure Mech, but playstyle didn't change, just as with Bio. You are going slow push, and just like you target fire with Siege Tanks when the enemy attack you, the same way you will "target fire" with Ghosts and EMP when the Protoss attack you. And about the Warhound, I perfectly understand why it was axed, I've never actually talk about it, what I've said that it wasn't considered Mech because of the unit stats and how it was more like an Giant Marauder than something along the lines of Mech unit. I get what you are saying with Battle Hellions being biological, but still, again, that is your opinion. Even if it doesn't make sense, balance and coolness come first in SC universe(or at least SC2), and lore comes second. I disagree with adding Firebat(and no, I don't want Firebat back), I think that transforming Hellion into Biological gives a lot of depth to the unit, it expands it, and change it from one-dimensional to great unit, and even in the end, if it stays with just mechanical tag, fine by me, just try it first and see how it will work out. Again, I am all for balance and cool stuff, and majority of Pro players are, and that is where Blizzard is going, pushing SC2 even more ahead for e-Sports. About what Harbinger631 said, he maybe wasn't right about you, but majority of people really dislike the changes because of Nostalgia, and those are the same people that wants Vulture, Spider Mine, Lurker, Goliath, Reaver back, without even thinking how it will affect the game. Okay, if people are overreacting about Blizzard's design abilities that's one issue, but we've already seen examples of this (like D3, the warhound...) so it's really not that far fetched that this idea for the battle hellion is one of those things. But it is still a separate actual issue from the particular judgment that making a unit transform in between bio and mech is a bad idea and/or doesn't make sense. And even if it annoys you to no end when people question Blizzard's ability to design the game, even if you are not Browder's nephew, you cannot use that as a line of argumentation against the issue itself, which is the design of the battle hellion. Okay, I am totally confused now about what you may have been trying to say about ghosts. Ghosts are not mech. Ghosts are support. They are support for bio. They are support for mech. They ARE a biological unit, and in WoL they are a much more prominently used unit MAYBE even so far as to call it a bio playstyle unit. But even if you take them away it doesn't change the primary component of the playstyle. In bio its marine (and in SC2 marauders), in mech its tanks for the most part with other mech units to support and fill in the weakness in immobility (i.e.. vulture/hellion). And yes, it is my opinion. In my judgment, having the battle hellion change type like that is a bad design, from the standpoint of it making sense lore-wise, from the standpoint of it making sense gameplay-wise, and from the standpoint of a purely principles-of-good-game-design perspective. It is my OPINION -- I hope no one is confused about this being the gospel truth now. But in that I think my opinion is a stronger argument for the Against column, than yours is for the For column. But that too is my opinion, feel free to take it with a grain of salt.  The kind of depth that people like Liquid Tyler (who, happened to be a BW pro, has BW nostolgia, and knows what he is talking about, and probably disagrees with you that the people who talk up the vulture, reaver, etc. are the kind of people who don't think about how it will affect the game -- they've already seen how they affect a game) are the kinds of things seen in his carrier micro blog. That is not the kind of depth a semi-android-vehicle battle hellion will bring to the game. Making the battle hellion essentially morph into two completely different kinds of units does not solve some balance issue, and while theoretically it might be a cool idea, they are going to have to come up with something better than the battle hellion as an idea that would convince me. The "depth" of the micro required to heal/repair it doesn't add anything important to the game and it just causes more problems than it solves, and again makes for a schizophrenic unit. Here's another example of a problem it creates: as I mentioned, with the battle hellion transformation, hellion drops become even more cost effective. You fly in, snipe workers, fly out, HEAL, fly in, etc. That in itself is bad enough. But let's think about the other unit that is supposed to do this that they just reworked to have more purpose -- the reaper. What does it do now? Oh yeah, it heals. So now you have essentially two mechanics for the same kind of harassment that gets in, does some damage, gets out, heals pretty quickly, and then goes back for more damage. Sure they hit different timings, but essentially you start to edge out the usefulness of the reaper once again. To my way of thinking, thats actually removing depth from the game. | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
Tell that to chess players man, such a shallow game, they only have like 5 different units. I am trying so hard not to make drug references. | ||
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Adonminus
Israel543 Posts
On September 25 2012 17:50 Crawdad wrote: Why does everybody suggest this? Why the hell would we want another bio unit? =__= The battle hellion is already a firebat, a marauder is in a huge armored suit, and the [s]firebat[s] battle hellion is also in a huge armored suit comparable to the one seen in the WoL campaign. So if medievacs can heal through the armor of marauders, the same should apply to battle hellions. But if they are in a normal hellion mode, they could get their wheels damage and thus need an scv to repair them to be able to continue with their tasks. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
On September 26 2012 05:15 Adonminus wrote: The battle hellion is already a firebat, a marauder is in a huge armored suit, and the [s]firebat[s] battle hellion is also in a huge armored suit comparable to the one seen in the WoL campaign. So if medievacs can heal through the armor of marauders, the same should apply to battle hellions. But if they are in a normal hellion mode, they could get their wheels damage and thus need an scv to repair them to be able to continue with their tasks. can battlehelions be repaired and healed by medivacs at the same time? | ||
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Crawdad
614 Posts
On September 26 2012 05:15 Adonminus wrote: The battle hellion is already a firebat, a marauder is in a huge armored suit, and the [s]firebat[s] battle hellion is also in a huge armored suit comparable to the one seen in the WoL campaign. So if medievacs can heal through the armor of marauders, the same should apply to battle hellions. But if they are in a normal hellion mode, they could get their wheels damage and thus need an scv to repair them to be able to continue with their tasks. Huh? I'm just saying that the BH should stay part of the mech PLAYSTYLE. Which is entirely dependent on ups and production. I don't really care what tag it has, as long as the balance is alright. | ||
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Adonminus
Israel543 Posts
On September 26 2012 05:21 Decendos wrote: can battlehelions be repaired and healed by medivacs at the same time? Yes, they're like scvs. They are classified as Mechanical (can be repaired) and Biological (can be healed) at same time. | ||
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xHadoken
United States171 Posts
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On September 26 2012 01:27 HypertonicHydroponic wrote: Okay, I am totally confused now about what you may have been trying to say about ghosts. Ghosts are not mech. Ghosts are support. They are support for bio. They are support for mech. They ARE a biological unit, and in WoL they are a much more prominently used unit MAYBE even so far as to call it a bio playstyle unit. But even if you take them away it doesn't change the primary component of the playstyle. In bio its marine (and in SC2 marauders), in mech its tanks for the most part with other mech units to support and fill in the weakness in immobility (i.e.. vulture/hellion). And that is what I was saying? That was my point all along... I mean, Ghosts are support units, and Mech with them is still mech for the most part, same as Bio with Medivacs is still Bio. That is what I was trying to say. The kind of depth that people like Liquid Tyler (who, happened to be a BW pro, has BW nostolgia, and knows what he is talking about, and probably disagrees with you that the people who talk up the vulture, reaver, etc. are the kind of people who don't think about how it will affect the game -- they've already seen how they affect a game) are the kinds of things seen in his carrier micro blog. That is not the kind of depth a semi-android-vehicle battle hellion will bring to the game. Making the battle hellion essentially morph into two completely different kinds of units does not solve some balance issue, and while theoretically it might be a cool idea, they are going to have to come up with something better than the battle hellion as an idea that would convince me. The "depth" of the micro required to heal/repair it doesn't add anything important to the game and it just causes more problems than it solves, and again makes for a schizophrenic unit. Here's another example of a problem it creates: as I mentioned, with the battle hellion transformation, hellion drops become even more cost effective. You fly in, snipe workers, fly out, HEAL, fly in, etc. That in itself is bad enough. But let's think about the other unit that is supposed to do this that they just reworked to have more purpose -- the reaper. What does it do now? Oh yeah, it heals. So now you have essentially two mechanics for the same kind of harassment that gets in, does some damage, gets out, heals pretty quickly, and then goes back for more damage. Sure they hit different timings, but essentially you start to edge out the usefulness of the reaper once again. To my way of thinking, thats actually removing depth from the game. Don't know how it is removing the depth from the game. Point is, you could "heal" the Hellions even before with SCVs, and continue the harassment. Hellions being bio was actually a buff to the Battle Hellions in direct fight, so they can soak up even more damage, it is not just because of the harassment... There is also a ton of stuff that can attack, the regenerate out of combat, and attack again. Phoenixes and Void Rays, Marines and Marauders with Medivacs, Reapers, Roaches with Burrow etc. but that is not the point of this buff. And that is exactly what I'm talking about. You are saying it doesn't solve some balance issues without even trying it in the game. So in the end, I am ok with Battle Hellion being Bio, you really dislike it. I am waiting to see how game will develop before saying "Great unit!" or "Awful, cut it!", while you are saying "I know it won't solve the problems, cut it!". We agree to disagree I guess. | ||
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dreadlordx
United States80 Posts
 |Or irradiate would be awesome as well, it could be nano virus, like a swarm of nano bots that attack near by units of the affected unit.I would say remove the 250mm cannnon on thors!!!!! No one uses this spell ever, and it only gives mana to a unit that toss feedback, ruining mech totally. I would say give thors defensive matrix or some other spell that would make them viable in mech vP. Or an AOE spell that maybe slows units and dmgs them over time, like a napalm cannon or something. This is of course only if they have a spell at all, no spell is better than 250mm cannon at this point. But so far, everyone is doing the same builds and maybe you will see a mine here or there. TVP is pretty much identical to WOL. I think all Terrans would agree with me, check the Team liquid forums, and they all agree, there is not much change in HOTS for them. Swarm hosts are very difficult to deal with, I might suggest changing the locusts to broodlings, as it would make it possible to at least deal with them. Becuase once they are out, with even a little support they are an unbreakable line as it stands now. Which is slightly imbalanced, and would make for a predictable transition that might bore viewers of tourneys. Protoss, no one seems to be using the air units, maybe the oracle, but not much. And MU's seem very similar as WOL. I would say a new ground unit with a new ability would be a great addition. I could see PVZ using the tempest, however I think a ground unit that can have an ability like; creates a void units can hide in temporarily, so the unit casts it, and units go into a hidden vortex, unless you have detection, and can pop out for an attack. And this unit can maybe can thorw down a slowing trail, so it drains it mana but behind it a trail is left behind that if units walk into it are slowed. This would shake up PV everything. | ||
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archon256
United States363 Posts
On September 27 2012 01:39 dreadlordx wrote: However in order for HOTS to not just be the same builds and exact same meta game You do realize that even if nothing is changed for one of the races and only the other two get changes, the first race will still have to adapt its builds to compensate, right? So even if we had WoL Terran facing off against HotS Zerg you'd still see players adjusting to handle Swarm Hosts, Vipers, Ultra burrow charge etc. It's not even obvious a race will be weaker even if it has fewer options, the only real way to determine balance in such situations is to vigorously test it. The real problem is that it just isn't fun for one of the races to have fewer shiny toys, which is why I'd like to see Terran get a little bit more. | ||
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Blackknight232
United States169 Posts
1: terran gets tech reactors 2: cheaper build times for starport units 3: some new mech unit 4: bring back the science vessel is that asking for too much? it's so simple that i don't even think Dustin can screw that up for us......or can he? | ||
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Perseverance
Japan2800 Posts
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Crawdad
614 Posts
On September 27 2012 13:01 Blackknight232 wrote: there would be 4 things that would make me buy this game: 1: terran gets tech reactors 2: cheaper build times for starport units 3: some new mech unit 4: bring back the science vessel is that asking for too much? it's so simple that i don't even think Dustin can screw that up for us......or can he? Why would we get both of these? It seems more likely we would get a new mech unit that can cast spells, rather than both. | ||
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Blackknight232
United States169 Posts
well to help mech tvp out more as for 4 cause it can heal mechanical units which helps out a lot | ||
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