Another balance update has just been announced for the HotS Beta that will take place tonight. The incoming changes are below:
Protoss
Mothership Core The cost of Purify is now 100. The duration of Purify has been lowered to 25 seconds. The damage of Purify has been increased from 25 to 45.
Oracle Entomb’s duration has increased to 30 seconds. The health of Entombed nodes has increased from 100 to 130. The duration of Revelation has increased from 30 to 45 seconds. We fixed a bug where the oracle was not correctly classified as a Psionic unit.
Terran
Battle Hellion While in Battle mode, the hellion is now classified as a Biological unit.
Widow Mine Splash damage has increased from 35 to 60.
Zerg
Viper We fixed a bug where the viper was not correctly classified as a Psionic unit.
On September 21 2012 04:48 y0su wrote: So battle hellions will can now be healed... but take more damage from archons.
That first part is way more awesome. It makes them kill zealots even more.
If you like the idea feel free to thank me as I posted it as a feedback/suggestion on the Bnet forum a week ago. If you hate the idea then...I had nothing to do with it. All Activision's fault. ^^
Biological? So do baneling do more damage to them?
They already take extra damage from banelings but will take extra from Archons. It should also means Ghosts can snipe them, a̶n̶d̶ ̶Q̶u̶e̶e̶n̶s̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶ ̶s̶p̶a̶w̶n̶ ̶b̶r̶o̶o̶d̶l̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶m̶.
On September 21 2012 04:48 y0su wrote: So battle hellions will can now be healed... but take more damage from archons.
That first part is way more awesome. It makes them kill zealots even more.
If you like the idea feel free to thank me as I posted it as a feedback/suggestion on the Bnet forum a week ago. If you hate the idea then...I had nothing to do with it. All Activision's fault. ^^
Well done sir. The medivac had no place in the current factorty based builds and it is one of the strongest abilities terran has. It being used with a factory based unit will just make the entire style of play more robust.
Healing battle helions is quite ridiculous. Purify changes mean it will take a while after the MC pops to be able to use it. It will be tremendously efficient against terran (one-shot marines!). But with the high cost and low duration, it will not deter ennemies from attacking, seeing they just have to wait a little bit outside of range. Not sure I like that. Entomb seems to be able to do real damage without combat units around.
O.o not sure If I'm a fan of the biological change, if only cause it doesn't make much sense for it to apply to the battehellion and not the real hellion. Also, medivac + BFBH vs Zergling.... The most cost efficient trade in the game?
The widow mine buff is pretty damn cool, I was really expecting them to be 1 supply, but making them just insanely high damaging is also a cool way to go
On September 21 2012 04:54 BookII wrote: So, It's officially a firebat?
Funny as it is that were my exact words when I was done reading it. This change may make bio hellion timings retardetly op though as I can't see any early-mid game zerg unit that can be cost efficient vs a battlehellion being healed.
The purifier change sounds kinda meh, part of why it allowed you to be greedy early game was the fact that it only took 25 more energy for purifier to be ready, but atleast they buffed the damage. Oracle changes sound really good and the mine change is just awesome! I just wish they'd patch even heavier atm tbh, no reason why "carriers can now be microd" shouldn't be on that list.
On September 21 2012 04:52 HelloSon wrote: Nice, I like the widow mine changes. Makes dropping widow mines on workers more viable.
That's unfortunately true. I really thought blizzard wanted the WM to be a zone-controlling unit, not an harassing unit (like T need another one). Jesus, baneling drops without having to wait for drops + ventral sacs + +2 upgrade (you still need an armory, right?). un-fucking-believable.
Any Terrans who complained about mass Zealots and Zealot remaxes should be happy.Considering I never thought it was an effective strategy, and considering so many Terrans were so frustrated, I'm happy for them too.
Widow Mine Splash damage has increased from 35 to 60.
awesome. Still needs to be 1 supply though :/
Dayvie's current reasoning for not being 1 pop --
Widow mine is a 160 damage unit that instantly 2-4 shots the strongest, latest tier units in the game. Not to mention you can build them two at a time with a 20 sec build time on each. We don't think it'll be a good idea to have these guys be 1 pop especially for the 200/200 supply cases.
On September 21 2012 04:48 y0su wrote: So battle hellions will can now be healed... but take more damage from archons.
That first part is way more awesome. It makes them kill zealots even more.
If you like the idea feel free to thank me as I posted it as a feedback/suggestion on the Bnet forum a week ago. If you hate the idea then...I had nothing to do with it. All Activision's fault. ^^
Well done sir. The medivac had no place in the current factorty based builds and it is one of the strongest abilities terran has. It being used with a factory based unit will just make the entire style of play more robust.
People already make lots of Vikings with Mech and with more durable BHs they can sustain more Immortal damage. And you can escape from Immortals picking up Tanks in the end of the engagement (because Immortals just don't die).
On September 21 2012 04:58 ant-1 wrote: That's unfortunately true. I really thought blizzard wanted the WM to be a zone-controlling unit, not an harassing unit (like T need another one). Jesus, baneling drops without having to wait for drops + ventral sacs + +2 upgrade (you still need an armory, right?). un-fucking-believable.
It does make the name a bit of a misnomer. Should be called the Widow bomb now. :D
I am excited about doing more mech drops, but I'm not happy that they don't want mech to revolve around the siege tank. Can someone please post in the pro forum that it's what the commmunity actually want?
On September 21 2012 04:54 BookII wrote: So, It's officially a firebat?
A Firebat that can also be healed by SCVs, and eventually become as fast as a Vulture.
And costs no gas, and has 35 more HP, and gets Blue Flame upgrades, and can be produced from a Reactor ... yeah ... over powered Terran buffs incomming people. .
On September 21 2012 04:54 BookII wrote: So, It's officially a firebat?
A Firebat that can also be healed by SCVs, and eventually become as fast as a Vulture.
And costs no gas, and has 35 more HP, and gets Blue Flame upgrades, and can be produced from a Reactor ... yeah ... over powered Terran buffs incomming people. .
Well I'm glad you haven't jumped to conclusions, thats what really matters.
On September 21 2012 05:03 Qikz wrote: I am excited about doing more mech drops, but I'm not happy that they don't want mech to revolve around the siege tank. Can someone please post in the pro forum that it's what the commmunity actually want?
Blizzard has made it pretty well known that they do not want the game to revolve around a single unit. I am sure there are a lot of terran players who would love to set up walls of seige tanks and watch their opponents crash against them, but that is not a change I want. Now these medivac supported flamethrower robots sound like a lot more fun. You could support those with seige tanks.
Its makes sense the battle hellions can be healed, What diffrent from a maurader and a battle hellion? Both got a driver inside and both having heavy armor.
Wow thats an unexpected change to the battle hellion. Seems kinda weird for them to be bio. Now medivacs can heal them right? wonder if scvs still heal them too?
Also like the changes to Oracle and MC. From streams I've seen they looked weak.
Widow mine is a 160 damage unit that instantly 2-4 shots the strongest, latest tier units in the game. Not to mention you can build them two at a time with a 20 sec build time on each. We don't think it'll be a good idea to have these guys be 1 pop especially for the 200/200 supply cases.
If the best the mine can do is trade evenly for late tier units and lose out vs low tier units then it's completely worthless. Isn't the whole idea behind the mine to be a positional tool? It has to be cost effective for the T and punishing for the enemy if they just run into them. Otherwise who cares if you lose units? You can just a move through them and at worst come out even, at best win out.
On September 21 2012 04:53 LgNKami wrote: hopefully mech players will be happy wit these changes. all mech needs now is a slight tank buff and thor energy removed.
Tanks already got buffed in hots :< more +armored damage in siege mode.
On September 21 2012 05:17 oxxo wrote: If the best the mine can do is trade evenly for late tier units and lose out vs low tier units then it's completely worthless. Isn't the whole idea behind the mine to be a positional tool? It has to be cost effective for the T and punishing for the enemy if they just run into them. Otherwise who cares if you lose units? You can just a move through them and at worst come out even, at best win out.
Loses out versus low-tier units when it has 60 splash damage? Or did you mean Rauders/Roaches/Stalkers?
On September 21 2012 04:54 BookII wrote: So, It's officially a firebat?
A Firebat that can also be healed by SCVs, and eventually become as fast as a Vulture.
And costs no gas, and has 35 more HP, and gets Blue Flame upgrades, and can be produced from a Reactor ... yeah ... over powered Terran buffs incomming people. .
Well I'm glad you haven't jumped to conclusions, thats what really matters.
Yeah, becuase it doesn't take a genious to realize overpowered Firebats and overpowered Banelings on Reactor production aren't going to be OP as fuck ... or that Blizzard ever bothers with incremental power increases as opposed to over powered increases when buffing units in Beta, I'll put money on the Battle Hellion and the Widow Mine being nerfed as soon as the next patch is released.
Wait guys, this isn't obvious enough. I have an idea, these "hellions" they aren't firebat enough, here let's make them BIO units. I like the increase in splash on the widow mine.
On September 21 2012 04:54 BookII wrote: So, It's officially a firebat?
A Firebat that can also be healed by SCVs, and eventually become as fast as a Vulture.
And costs no gas, and has 35 more HP, and gets Blue Flame upgrades, and can be produced from a Reactor ... yeah ... over powered Terran buffs incomming people. .
To be fair terrans kinda got a pretty big nerf with the warhound being removed and then protoss got carriers back, zerg has the swarm host, I think its OK for terran to get a little love as well.
On September 21 2012 05:17 oxxo wrote: If the best the mine can do is trade evenly for late tier units and lose out vs low tier units then it's completely worthless. Isn't the whole idea behind the mine to be a positional tool? It has to be cost effective for the T and punishing for the enemy if they just run into them. Otherwise who cares if you lose units? You can just a move through them and at worst come out even, at best win out.
Loses out versus low-tier units when it has 60 splash damage? Or did you mean Rauders/Roaches/Stalkers?
Isn't that more damage than a seige tank? It is way more than a single shot from a colossi or immortal.
Ughh.. I don't like a bio unit from factory. I know e-sports and all is important but don't kill the feeling of the game. Keep it simple, bio from barracks and mech from factory.
On September 21 2012 04:53 LgNKami wrote: hopefully mech players will be happy wit these changes. all mech needs now is a slight tank buff and thor energy removed.
Tanks already got buffed in hots :< more +armored damage in siege mode.
Can you post a source for this? I tried out the unit tester and it was still the same, +3 vs light and +5 vs armored.
On September 21 2012 05:20 Badfatpanda wrote: Wait guys, this isn't obvious enough. I have an idea, these "hellions" they aren't firebat enough, here let's make them BIO units. I like the increase in splash on the widow mine.
I think it's because right now colossus makes bh useless since it can't tank for long enough without healing.
On September 21 2012 05:22 eviltomahawk wrote: Huh, the similarities between the Firebat from the WoL alpha and the current Battle Hellion are striking now that they are now considered Biological.
afaik, the old alpha version of the Firebat was: -beefy -wide-ish aoe area -good vs light armor -biological, of course -built from the Factory
now the Battle Hellion is: -beefy -wide aoe area -good vs light armor -biological -built from the Factory
shhhhh. don't let anyone know they have the exact same stats.
a NEW research for the medivac that enables a second ability it to heal Mech? (Something inefficient like 1 energy/1.5 hp) instead of biological Hellions.
On September 21 2012 05:25 SarcasmMonster wrote: How about.....
a NEW research for the medivac that enables a second ability it to heal Mec? (Something inefficient like 1 energy/1.5 hp) instead of biological Hellions.
On September 21 2012 05:25 SarcasmMonster wrote: How about.....
a NEW research for the medivac that enables a second ability it to heal Mec? (Something inefficient like 1 energy/1.5 hp) instead of biological Hellions.
Good idea? Bad idea?
very bad idea.
Okay, new idea. How about biological Battle Hellions so that they can be healed by Medivacs?
On September 21 2012 05:25 SarcasmMonster wrote: How about.....
a NEW research for the medivac that enables a second ability it to heal Mec? (Something inefficient like 1 energy/1.5 hp) instead of biological Hellions.
Good idea? Bad idea?
very bad idea.
Okay, new idea. How about biological Battle Hellions so that they can be healed by Medivacs?
On September 21 2012 05:23 captainwaffles wrote: Can you post a source for this? I tried out the unit tester and it was still the same, +3 vs light and +5 vs armored.
The upgrades, you mean? I thought that it was buffed from +5 to +7 for armored units, but I guess not...
On September 21 2012 04:53 LgNKami wrote: hopefully mech players will be happy wit these changes. all mech needs now is a slight tank buff and thor energy removed.
Tanks already got buffed in hots :< more +armored damage in siege mode.
BH + Marauder + Medivac. That will make for some interesting Terran play since both units tank banelings well (BH's aren't Light, right?), and BHs scorch the living shit out of lings. Only issue is Mutas in ling/bling/muta play. The Terran would need to bring a couple Thors, or Marines, for the engagement.
EDIT: Infestors shit all over this. Marine + tank it is :D
I feel some kind of scv+medivac+blue flame battle hellion pushes are going to be really strong. The scv healing was already quite a bit, you add medivac healing on top of scv healing together.... No other unit right now can be scv healed and medivac healed at the same time.
On September 21 2012 05:10 captainwaffles wrote: Not just medivacs, SCV's too! Oh what a wonderful day lol.
Maybe not. The patch notes don't specify whether it's hybridized or not.
Biological/Mechanical is a dichotomy in SC2. It can't be both under the default game conditions (you could certainly do this in the map editor). You'd have to switch forms to make them repairable.
IDK what to make of these changes, but I seriously feel like Protoss needs another unit. What we got was terrible compared to what Terran and Zerg got.
On September 21 2012 05:22 eviltomahawk wrote: Huh, the similarities between the Firebat from the WoL alpha and the current Battle Hellion are striking now that they are now considered Biological.
afaik, the old alpha version of the Firebat was: -beefy -wide-ish aoe area -good vs light armor -biological, of course -built from the Factory
now the Battle Hellion is: -beefy -wide aoe area -good vs light armor -biological -built from the Factory
shhhhh. don't let anyone know they have the exact same stats.
Except that Battle Hellions are better in almost every way if the info on Liquipedia is correct, though the Firebat was an alpha version so nothing is too clear.
Battle Hellions have more health, do more damage, have a wider aoe, have Blue Flame, and cost no gas. Otherwise, the mineral costs, build times, movement speeds, and "armored" attributes are the same afaik. I guess the only advantage that the old alpha Firebat had was that it started out with 1 armor as opposed to the Battle Hellion's 0 armor.
On September 21 2012 04:48 y0su wrote: So battle hellions will can now be healed... but take more damage from archons.
Edit: Widow mine splash damage increase :D
Very first post of the thread summed up the Terran changes, now to think how it would effect the matchups
Hellions will still melt Zealots but if Protoss go Council tech not so good. And vs Zerg any sign of a Baneling nest you probably want to engage fights in 'Scout' mode. I don't think the change has any impact at all in TvT.
On September 21 2012 05:34 obsid wrote: I feel some kind of scv+medivac+blue flame battle hellion pushes are going to be really strong. The scv healing was already quite a bit, you add medivac healing on top of scv healing together.... No other unit right now can be scv healed and medivac healed at the same time.
I think that when in battle mode it can't be SCV healed, only when in regular mode. So they can't be healed by 2 things simultaneously, just 2 different things in 2 different modes. Still pretty stupid change though IMO.
Not sure how I feel about this... It doesn't make sense logically because a Hellion is a mechanical unit... But I wonder how it will change up the game.
This hasn't much to do with the patch itself, but I remember back when in WoL beta a new patch used to draw dozens of pages worth of posts in a few minutes. Are we becoming less?
For anyone complaining about how its unrealistic for a Medivac to heal a Battle Hellion.
Just remember we're talking about a dropship flying high about the ground firing a green laser at a man in armour on the ground, and restoring him consistently to full health no matter how much damage he takes.
It is a tad weird, but if it works out well for gameplay its all good.
On September 21 2012 05:39 avilo wrote: Widow mine still 2 supply, so it'll still be pretty bad past the 7 min mark.
Man, stop complain about 2 supply if it can be manually targeted and it can kill half of enemy army. Especially in SC2 engine with clumping units. It's very strong now.
dafuq... cars are biological? That explains why i want to hump them so often
Drivers are biological, same as SCV. They are biological, because with human driver inside.
On September 21 2012 05:40 Monkeyballs25 wrote: For anyone complaining about how its unrealistic for a Medivac to heal a Battle Hellion.
Just remember we're talking about a dropship flying high about the ground firing a green laser at a man in armour on the ground, and restoring him consistently to full health no matter how much damage he takes.
It is a tad weird, but if it works out well for gameplay its all good.
On September 21 2012 05:25 SarcasmMonster wrote: How about.....
a NEW research for the medivac that enables a second ability it to heal Mec? (Something inefficient like 1 energy/1.5 hp) instead of biological Hellions.
Good idea? Bad idea?
very bad idea.
Okay, new idea. How about biological Battle Hellions so that they can be healed by Medivacs?
On September 21 2012 05:40 mikedebo wrote: dafuq... cars are biological? That explains why i want to hump them so often
Nono, you can only heal mechanical things if they're humanoid shaped! Like SCVs, Marauders, and now hellions... Thors are jus too big to be healed I guess. But maybe they will correct that in a future patch.
So when they are biological do they get different upgrades depending on their current transformation? Because then it wouldnt make sense to play full mech with battle hellions since u dont do bio upgrades when u play mech.
I prefer bio or bio-tank anyhow, so it would be like a complementary unit to my bioball. I've heard u might produce battle hellions or normal hellions at the factory. The logical choice would be to add the firebat and produce it from the barracks. Im not sure if it makes sense to add a lot of medivacs to a mech composition.
On September 21 2012 05:40 Apolo wrote: This hasn't much to do with the patch itself, but I remember back when in WoL beta a new patch used to draw dozens of pages worth of posts in a few minutes. Are we becoming less?
WoL wasn't an expansion, it was the sequel to the most popular RTS of all time. Interest was understandably higher.
On September 21 2012 05:39 avilo wrote: Widow mine still 2 supply, so it'll still be pretty bad past the 7 min mark.
Man, stop complain about 2 supply if it can be manually targeted and it can kill half of enemy army. Especially in SC2 engine with clumping units. It's very strong now.
On September 21 2012 05:42 SpikeStarcraft wrote: So when they are biological do they get different upgrades depending on their current transformation? Because then it wouldnt make sense to play full mech with battle hellions since u dont do bio upgrades when u play mech.
I prefer bio or bio-tank anyhow, so it would be like a complementary unit to my bioball. I've heard u might produce battle hellions or normal hellions at the factory. The logical choice would be to add the firebat and produce it from the barracks. Im not sure if it makes sense to add a lot of medivacs to a mech composition.
Makes mech players able to drop without having completely dead supply in the army.
On September 21 2012 05:39 avilo wrote: Widow mine still 2 supply, so it'll still be pretty bad past the 7 min mark.
Man, stop complain about 2 supply if it can be manually targeted and it can kill half of enemy army. Especially in SC2 engine with clumping units. It's very strong now.
I cannot comprehend why people are complaining that battle hellions are similar to firebats. So they're firebats that turn into cars. Where's the complaint? Why's it "lol hellions are firebats"? What's funny?
People bitch and moan about everything in SC2 that isn't like BW, and when something becomes more like BW they bitch and moan about it.
On September 21 2012 04:53 LgNKami wrote: hopefully mech players will be happy wit these changes. all mech needs now is a slight tank buff and thor energy removed.
Tanks already got buffed in hots :< more +armored damage in siege mode.
Do you have any source for that or are you just making it up? I haven't been able to find any information and have never heard it mentioned before...
On September 21 2012 05:40 Monkeyballs25 wrote: For anyone complaining about how its unrealistic for a Medivac to heal a Battle Hellion.
Just remember we're talking about a dropship flying high about the ground firing a green laser at a man in armour on the ground, and restoring him consistently to full health no matter how much damage he takes.
It is a tad weird, but if it works out well for gameplay its all good.
Sorry, i don't buy this argument. By that premise, the entire game is totally out there. The reality, though, is that the game creators are still trying to create a plausible game universe where the design and backstory of each unit fits the stat game underlying it all. If little details like this don't matter then we may as well all be playing dice or the stock market for that matter.
I thought this was satire, but this decision makes me think this be the truth:
On September 21 2012 05:15 Gumbotwins wrote: Its makes sense the battle hellions can be healed, What diffrent from a maurader and a battle hellion? Both got a driver inside and both having heavy armor.
No it doesn´t.Marauder is a soldier with a big fat armored suit and Hellion is a vehicle.Why not make every Unit that has a driver in it biological?Even Protoss ones.-_-
On September 21 2012 05:45 SgtCoDFish wrote: I cannot comprehend why people are complaining that battle hellions are similar to firebats. So they're firebats that turn into cars. Where's the complaint? Why's it "lol hellions are firebats"? What's funny?
People bitch and moan about everything in SC2 that isn't like BW, and when something becomes more like BW they bitch and moan about it.
Coz it's a stupid nerf.
Why would I want to build Medivacs when I'm meching? And now you can't repair battle hellions either.
So zealot-archon will still be just as big of a problem for terran.... they are literally going backwards with these patches in the beta right now, especially for terran
On September 21 2012 05:33 Asha` wrote: How do you even crowbar a battle hellion into being biological lore wise lol. yay firebats
at least mines got buffed
The only thing I've been able to come up with is that when you are driving a car, you can be injured and banged up but the car will still work fine. However, if you're in a mech suit (like marines and marauders and firebats are), the suit is directly dependent on your physical state (ie if you're arm is broken, you won't be able to move the arm of your suit). Also, the suit is has to be more directly tied into your body and especially your nervous system, so what I'm guessing is that during the transformation, the hellion sort of plugs in and integrates to the driver's body, therefore necessitating the driver be in good physical health.
It's a stretch, for sure. I'm still trying to reconcile all of that with how starcraft should be in my head.
On September 21 2012 05:42 _Nova_ wrote: Yeah, let's just call them Firebats now. Battle Hellion takes longer to type, no point.
I don't see why removing the hellion entirely and adding the firebat in would be imbalanced...
Terran would have 0 map control against Z once speedlings are out...
meant to type "battle hellion"
remove the battle hellion ability, give terran firebats, terran choose between firebats/helions, choice between strong defense or map presence?
From what I understood from what the devs have said, BHs were introduced so that T mech could deal with chargelots. Firebats won't fit in a mech comp since they won't benefit from vehicle upgrades.
This change is so stupid. Just make the Viking build from the factory and give it its beta damage, and/or benefit from ground upgrades while in assault mode.
I dont want to be heavily producing from the starport to create core mech units.
So when they are biological do they get different upgrades depending on their current transformation? Because then it wouldnt make sense to play full mech with battle hellions since u dont do bio upgrades when u play mech.
On September 21 2012 04:53 LgNKami wrote: hopefully mech players will be happy wit these changes. all mech needs now is a slight tank buff and thor energy removed.
Tanks already got buffed in hots :< more +armored damage in siege mode.
Can you post a source for this? I tried out the unit tester and it was still the same, +3 vs light and +5 vs armored.
On September 21 2012 05:42 _Nova_ wrote: Yeah, let's just call them Firebats now. Battle Hellion takes longer to type, no point.
I don't see why removing the hellion entirely and adding the firebat in would be imbalanced...
Terran would have 0 map control against Z once speedlings are out...
meant to type "battle hellion"
remove the battle hellion ability, give terran firebats, terran choose between firebats/helions, choice between strong defense or map presence?
From what I understood from what the devs have said, BHs were introduced so that T mech could deal with chargelots. Firebats won't fit in a mech comp since they won't benefit from vehicle upgrades.
why wouldn't firebats be better against chargelots though? they're strong, have high defense, essentially do the same thing as battle hellions are doing now
I don't understand why people care if it makes sense that it's biological in Battle Hellion form or not. Does it make sense that Mutalisk fly by flapping it's wings in space?
If it helps, one could say that the Battle Hellion exposes more of it's driver in that form, and that way it's biological attribute is justified.
But who cares as long as it's fun and good for gameplay?
On September 21 2012 05:45 SgtCoDFish wrote: I cannot comprehend why people are complaining that battle hellions are similar to firebats. So they're firebats that turn into cars. Where's the complaint? Why's it "lol hellions are firebats"? What's funny?
People bitch and moan about everything in SC2 that isn't like BW, and when something becomes more like BW they bitch and moan about it.
Coz it's a stupid nerf.
Why would I want to build Medivacs when I'm meching? And now you can't repair battle hellions either.
Did they lose their mechanical status?
And you'd want to build medivacs for the same reason you'd want to build dropships. To drop. But now your drops heal your hellions too. So mech just gained this awesome harass potential.
The only negative I can think of is that they can be sniped by ghosts now... which isn't really a consideration. Are there any other abilities which only affect bio? I guess in team games you can transfuse hellions now.
On September 21 2012 05:39 avilo wrote: Widow mine still 2 supply, so it'll still be pretty bad past the 7 min mark.
Man, stop complain about 2 supply if it can be manually targeted and it can kill half of enemy army. Especially in SC2 engine with clumping units. It's very strong now.
dafuq... cars are biological? That explains why i want to hump them so often
Drivers are biological, same as SCV. They are biological, because with human driver inside.
By that logic tanks are bio too? And banshees. And every other terran unit.
Well we know all their faces besides the guy in the marauder suite. Given all that I really hope blizz fixes this in a future patch and makes every unit except for the marauder biological, seems fitting to me.
On September 21 2012 05:42 _Nova_ wrote: Yeah, let's just call them Firebats now. Battle Hellion takes longer to type, no point.
I don't see why removing the hellion entirely and adding the firebat in would be imbalanced...
Terran would have 0 map control against Z once speedlings are out...
meant to type "battle hellion"
remove the battle hellion ability, give terran firebats, terran choose between firebats/helions, choice between strong defense or map presence?
From what I understood from what the devs have said, BHs were introduced so that T mech could deal with chargelots. Firebats won't fit in a mech comp since they won't benefit from vehicle upgrades.
why wouldn't firebats be better against chargelots though? they're strong, have high defense, essentially do the same thing as battle hellions are doing now
On September 21 2012 05:39 avilo wrote: Widow mine still 2 supply, so it'll still be pretty bad past the 7 min mark.
Man, stop complain about 2 supply if it can be manually targeted and it can kill half of enemy army. Especially in SC2 engine with clumping units. It's very strong now.
On September 21 2012 05:45 SgtCoDFish wrote: I cannot comprehend why people are complaining that battle hellions are similar to firebats. So they're firebats that turn into cars. Where's the complaint? Why's it "lol hellions are firebats"? What's funny?
People bitch and moan about everything in SC2 that isn't like BW, and when something becomes more like BW they bitch and moan about it.
Coz it's a stupid nerf.
Why would I want to build Medivacs when I'm meching? And now you can't repair battle hellions either.
On September 21 2012 05:42 _Nova_ wrote: Yeah, let's just call them Firebats now. Battle Hellion takes longer to type, no point.
I don't see why removing the hellion entirely and adding the firebat in would be imbalanced...
Terran would have 0 map control against Z once speedlings are out...
meant to type "battle hellion"
remove the battle hellion ability, give terran firebats, terran choose between firebats/helions, choice between strong defense or map presence?
From what I understood from what the devs have said, BHs were introduced so that T mech could deal with chargelots. Firebats won't fit in a mech comp since they won't benefit from vehicle upgrades.
why wouldn't firebats be better against chargelots though? they're strong, have high defense, essentially do the same thing as battle hellions are doing now
Have you seen what collosus do to battle hellions right now?
They melt and the chargelots run past anyways and kill the tanks.
Atleast with healing the BHs will survive for longer. Also mech drops. Medivacs no longer useless supply.
Don't get why they changed battle hellion to Biological. If anything they should be helping Mech. To me this just feels like a big cop out to say we can't really find a way to improve Mech (aside from Mine buff), so we're going to help you by making Battle hellions have more synergy with bio compositions.
On September 21 2012 05:45 SgtCoDFish wrote: I cannot comprehend why people are complaining that battle hellions are similar to firebats. So they're firebats that turn into cars. Where's the complaint? Why's it "lol hellions are firebats"? What's funny?
People bitch and moan about everything in SC2 that isn't like BW, and when something becomes more like BW they bitch and moan about it.
Coz it's a stupid nerf.
Why would I want to build Medivacs when I'm meching? And now you can't repair battle hellions either.
Is it a nerf? It seems like a buff to bio-mech.
better 1/1/1ing! woo
because of the ambiguity. Marine Tank Raven, a slow death push, or Marine BH medivac, mobile damage powerhouse
By that logic tanks are bio too? And banshees. And every other terran unit.
Then why SCVs are biological? They're robots lol
I guess it's because of how it feels like a human with a suit, helping him move faster and be stronger. Like the marauder. Or even the marine.
Hellion is a car. Or a transformer
Btw I'm not complaining. I think it's a cool idea for the game that it can be healed and promotes biomech. Lore wise doesnt make sense and just pointing that its funny and weird.
On September 21 2012 05:45 SgtCoDFish wrote: I cannot comprehend why people are complaining that battle hellions are similar to firebats. So they're firebats that turn into cars. Where's the complaint? Why's it "lol hellions are firebats"? What's funny?
People bitch and moan about everything in SC2 that isn't like BW, and when something becomes more like BW they bitch and moan about it.
Coz it's a stupid nerf.
Why would I want to build Medivacs when I'm meching? And now you can't repair battle hellions either.
Is it a nerf? It seems like a buff to bio-mech.
It's a buff to marine hellion medic pushes in TvZ.
The problem is, imo that buff is unneeded in TvZ AND it sets mech a further step back in vP
On September 21 2012 05:45 SgtCoDFish wrote: I cannot comprehend why people are complaining that battle hellions are similar to firebats. So they're firebats that turn into cars. Where's the complaint? Why's it "lol hellions are firebats"? What's funny?
People bitch and moan about everything in SC2 that isn't like BW, and when something becomes more like BW they bitch and moan about it.
Coz it's a stupid nerf.
Why would I want to build Medivacs when I'm meching? And now you can't repair battle hellions either.
Is it a nerf? It seems like a buff to bio-mech.
It's a buff to marine hellion medic pushes in TvZ.
The problem is, imo that buff is unneeded in TvZ AND it sets mech a further step back in vP
How? It helps! BHs melt to splash damage from Collosus and then the zealots just kill all the tanks since t he BHs couldn't do their jobs.
On September 21 2012 05:45 SgtCoDFish wrote: I cannot comprehend why people are complaining that battle hellions are similar to firebats. So they're firebats that turn into cars. Where's the complaint? Why's it "lol hellions are firebats"? What's funny?
People bitch and moan about everything in SC2 that isn't like BW, and when something becomes more like BW they bitch and moan about it.
Coz it's a stupid nerf.
Why would I want to build Medivacs when I'm meching? And now you can't repair battle hellions either.
Is it a nerf? It seems like a buff to bio-mech.
It's a buff to marine hellion medic pushes in TvZ.
The problem is, imo that buff is unneeded in TvZ AND it sets mech a further step back in vP
So you have confirmation they stealth-removed mechanical for battle hellions and didn't mention it in the patch notes, and that battle hellions aren't now like SCVs (bio and mech)? If they have, I still don't think this is a nerf considering the massive harass potential you have.
On September 21 2012 05:42 SpikeStarcraft wrote: So when they are biological do they get different upgrades depending on their current transformation? Because then it wouldnt make sense to play full mech with battle hellions since u dont do bio upgrades when u play mech.
I prefer bio or bio-tank anyhow, so it would be like a complementary unit to my bioball. I've heard u might produce battle hellions or normal hellions at the factory. The logical choice would be to add the firebat and produce it from the barracks. Im not sure if it makes sense to add a lot of medivacs to a mech composition.
Makes mech players able to drop without having completely dead supply in the army.
Or wasted gas on a healing ability that they will never use. Its not like you can build dropships that don't have the green-sonic healing ray.
On September 21 2012 05:45 SgtCoDFish wrote: I cannot comprehend why people are complaining that battle hellions are similar to firebats. So they're firebats that turn into cars. Where's the complaint? Why's it "lol hellions are firebats"? What's funny?
People bitch and moan about everything in SC2 that isn't like BW, and when something becomes more like BW they bitch and moan about it.
Coz it's a stupid nerf.
Why would I want to build Medivacs when I'm meching? And now you can't repair battle hellions either.
Is it a nerf? It seems like a buff to bio-mech.
It's a buff to marine hellion medic pushes in TvZ.
The problem is, imo that buff is unneeded in TvZ AND it sets mech a further step back in vP
how do you know that buff is unneeded in TVZ? remember that this is HOTS, zerg got two new units...
On September 21 2012 05:45 SgtCoDFish wrote: I cannot comprehend why people are complaining that battle hellions are similar to firebats. So they're firebats that turn into cars. Where's the complaint? Why's it "lol hellions are firebats"? What's funny?
People bitch and moan about everything in SC2 that isn't like BW, and when something becomes more like BW they bitch and moan about it.
Coz it's a stupid nerf.
Why would I want to build Medivacs when I'm meching? And now you can't repair battle hellions either.
Is it a nerf? It seems like a buff to bio-mech.
It's a buff to marine hellion medic pushes in TvZ.
The problem is, imo that buff is unneeded in TvZ AND it sets mech a further step back in vP
So you have confirmation they stealth-removed mechanical for battle hellions and didn't mention it in the patch notes, and that battle hellions aren't now like SCVs (bio and mech)? If they have, I still don't think this is a nerf considering the massive harass potential you have.
Did you read what he said ? He didn't say it wasn't a buff, he said it sets mech further step back in vP. Many terrans want to play mech if they want to. Bio isn't mech.
On September 21 2012 05:45 SgtCoDFish wrote: I cannot comprehend why people are complaining that battle hellions are similar to firebats. So they're firebats that turn into cars. Where's the complaint? Why's it "lol hellions are firebats"? What's funny?
People bitch and moan about everything in SC2 that isn't like BW, and when something becomes more like BW they bitch and moan about it.
Coz it's a stupid nerf.
Why would I want to build Medivacs when I'm meching? And now you can't repair battle hellions either.
Is it a nerf? It seems like a buff to bio-mech.
It's a buff to marine hellion medic pushes in TvZ.
The problem is, imo that buff is unneeded in TvZ AND it sets mech a further step back in vP
How? It helps! BHs melt to splash damage from Collosus and then the zealots just kill all the tanks since t he BHs couldn't do their jobs.
It sets mech back imo because now you need to allocate more supply and starport production time towards building units that essentially become useless once your hellions are dead / forced to xform back to scout mode.
the biological thing is weird... but interesting I guess, the battle hellion (since now the warhound is gone) can be mixed in with bio compositions to help deal with zealots
don't think this is the only weird thing in history of starcraft though, since i think tanks could be turned into broodlings in SC1, which didnt really make sense but did cus of the pilot being human (i think it might have been a long time ago, maybe they changed it now? idk)
battle hellion drops with the heal would be pretty strong though ;O
On September 21 2012 05:45 SgtCoDFish wrote: I cannot comprehend why people are complaining that battle hellions are similar to firebats. So they're firebats that turn into cars. Where's the complaint? Why's it "lol hellions are firebats"? What's funny?
People bitch and moan about everything in SC2 that isn't like BW, and when something becomes more like BW they bitch and moan about it.
Coz it's a stupid nerf.
Why would I want to build Medivacs when I'm meching? And now you can't repair battle hellions either.
Is it a nerf? It seems like a buff to bio-mech.
It's a buff to marine hellion medic pushes in TvZ.
The problem is, imo that buff is unneeded in TvZ AND it sets mech a further step back in vP
How? It helps! BHs melt to splash damage from Collosus and then the zealots just kill all the tanks since t he BHs couldn't do their jobs.
It sets mech back imo because now you need to allocate more supply and starport production time towards building units that essentially become useless once your hellions are dead / forced to xform back to scout mode.
On September 21 2012 05:59 Godwrath wrote: Did you read what he said ? He didn't say it wasn't a buff, he said it sets mech further step back in vP. Many terrans want to play mech if they want to. Bio isn't mech.
Huh? The BH uses the same upgrades as the other mech units and requires the same tech. And even if we do concede that this gives bio units more of a presence when you're playing mech (because they'll be healed along with the BHs), that just means you have something to deal with Immortals. Also, with Medivacs on the field either way, we have reason to employ mech drops, which are now way more effective because of the improved Widow mine.
On September 21 2012 06:01 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: the biological thing is weird... but interesting I guess, the battle hellion (since now the warhound is gone) can be mixed in with bio compositions to help deal with zealots
battle hellion drops with the heal would be pretty strong though ;O
now that you mention it O_o must be insane strong to drop some marauders + battle hellions vs protoss. before HotS some zealots always cleaned the drops but with battle hellions that might change :D
BH change is just a buff to bio and a nerf to Mech. Now you need to transform back to hellion mode to repair them when you are going mech.
Widow mines are better now, but I doubt it is enough. They are still far too situational even if well placed because they are easily destroyed and don't even trade cost effectively with 1/2 of the units in this game if they do connect.
On September 21 2012 05:04 Linwelin wrote: Nice firebat
THAT AND WHAT.THE.FUCK?
this is complete bullshit, you can chage its unit type? you're telling me that hellion drop can be heal? fuck that shit, even pros are having a hard time dealig with 2 or 3 drops and an attack at the front this is just stupid.
the oracle changes are a little bit over the top too but no so much like this piece of crap
On September 21 2012 06:01 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: the biological thing is weird... but interesting I guess, the battle hellion (since now the warhound is gone) can be mixed in with bio compositions to help deal with zealots
battle hellion drops with the heal would be pretty strong though ;O
now that you mention it O_o must be insane strong to drop some marauders + battle hellions vs protoss. before HotS some zealots always cleaned the drops but with battle hellions that might change :D
Yeah, and even with stalkers it would take a while to shoot down 4 BHs
Also, about the nerf vs archons, it won't be too bad since if they have a high archon count it means they have more zealots... it's not like archons were that threatening to hellions before, and with battle hellion mode they are bigger size too so there's less splash (? can someone confirm?)
I would hope they balance more by how the units function and how they micro rather than balancing by arbitrary designations. Battle hellions being bio feels too arbitrary and inelegant a solution since regular hellions are mechanical and this unit comes from a factory.
On September 21 2012 06:06 andrewlt wrote: I would hope they balance more by how the units function and how they micro rather than balancing by arbitrary designations. Battle hellions being bio feels too arbitrary and inelegant a solution since regular hellions are mechanical and this unit comes from a factory.
Good changes for bio-mech. I think you could replacement the marine with the BH in TvP. It's less DPS but way more durable, so it can stand up to Protoss Splash. And you might not need as many vikings because Terran ground can fight toe-to-toe with the deathball, which allows you to get even more medivacs. You just need to make sure to get enough ghosts to deal with archons and immortals.
On September 21 2012 06:02 avilo wrote: Blizzard says they want mech tvp viable.
Nerf battle hellion making it take more damage from archons.
Facepalm*
And gives it the ability to be healed by medivacs? Or did you like have full energy on those and only being able to heal SCVs? Or just not using drops when going mech?
On September 21 2012 05:39 avilo wrote: Widow mine still 2 supply, so it'll still be pretty bad past the 7 min mark.
I can't believe you're complaining about the widow mine being 2 supply. Its splash does 60 dmg - one shotting workers, marines, lings etc. And with sc2's pathfinding clumping units together, 1 or 2 mines can do ridiculous damage. How exactly would it be fair if they can be produced 2 at a time and are 1 supply? Wow
The increase in the Widow Mine's splash damage kinda seems like a big deal.
With 60 splash damage, it can now 1-shot Marines and Reapers as well as all basic workers. It can also now 2-shot a lot of other units like Mutas, Hydras, Ghosts, Locusts, and normal Hellions. I imagine that a pair of Widow Mines will really fuck up a Muta ball unless the Mutas have an armor upgrade, but even then they're softened up to the verge of death. And with the splash now 1-shotting workers, Widow Mines will be better at harassing mineral lines.
On September 21 2012 06:09 renaissanceMAN wrote: just for the love of god, remove the battle hellion, keep the original hellion and give us the firebat.
it'll make more sense for those who aren't trying to competitively play the game, and for spectators.
It would actually be stupid. We would see nothing but bio, and it would take survivability from both the Hellion and the BH.
The battle hellion change does feel like it's more about promoting the medivac than the hellion. Medivacs increase mobility, one of the drawbacks of mech, and there is actually a tradeoff with the starport of whether to make more vikings for better air control or more medivacs for better drop potential/healing, which is a good thing over the one-dimensional choice of just make vikings. Battle hellions will be even beefier than just extra health if there are medivacs healing them, scvs are a little too vulnerable for most mech battle situations to be used to repair, in later game stages they are better between battles rather than during. Early marine/hellion/medivac pushes are going to be fun. And I don't understand why people are against it from a lore perspective, why can't the rearranging of the hellion just make the driver more accessible to the medivac beam than when he is completely encased in a car?
On September 21 2012 06:11 eviltomahawk wrote: The increase in the Widow Mine's splash damage kinda seems like a big deal.
With 60 splash damage, it can now 1-shot Marines and Reapers as well as all basic workers. It can also now 2-shot a lot of other units like Mutas, Hydras, Ghosts, Locusts, and normal Hellions. I imagine that a pair of Widow Mines will really fuck up a Muta ball unless the Mutas have an armor upgrade, but even then they're softened up to the verge of death. And with the splash now 1-shotting workers, Widow Mines will be better at harassing mineral lines.
They are going to bring warhound back after some fixing. That's why mech was nerfed now. I can't see any other reason, it's not like mech (without warhounds) was any good tvp anyway.
On September 21 2012 05:39 avilo wrote: Widow mine still 2 supply, so it'll still be pretty bad past the 7 min mark.
I can't believe you're complaining about the widow mine being 2 supply. Its splash does 60 dmg - one shotting workers, marines, lings etc. And with sc2's pathfinding clumping units together, 1 or 2 mines can do ridiculous damage. How exactly would it be fair if they can be produced 2 at a time and are 1 supply? Wow
Just think of the damage 8 one supply mines could do. Now think of the damage 8 marines could do. 8 mines could maul two colossi if they connected. 8 marines could...be on fire.
I think its actually pretty cool. Currently there are a lot of terrans who use marauders as a tanker against zerg armies (soak up lots of banelings, take up space vs fungals, have armor vs lings) but the Battle Helion might serve as a potential replacement for it. BHs won't take additional armor damage from fungal and they have roughly the same amount of HP as marauders. In addition, their aoe attack will do substantial damage to incoming lings and banes. I think what Blizzard has done with this patch and the removal of the warhound is they've effectively done away with the idea of a pure mech of pure bio composition but instead they want players to favor a certain mix of the 2 and these new weapons give terrans new options in a bio mech army.
On September 21 2012 06:09 renaissanceMAN wrote: just for the love of god, remove the battle hellion, keep the original hellion and give us the firebat.
it'll make more sense for those who aren't trying to competitively play the game, and for spectators.
It would actually be stupid. We would see nothing but bio, and it would take survivability from both the Hellion and the BH.
why would it be stupid?
vZ you'd be forced to choose between a defensive unit (firebat) or map presence (hellion) vP you still get the same result, a unit that's good vs. zealots...
On September 21 2012 05:39 avilo wrote: Widow mine still 2 supply, so it'll still be pretty bad past the 7 min mark.
I can't believe you're complaining about the widow mine being 2 supply. Its splash does 60 dmg - one shotting workers, marines, lings etc. And with sc2's pathfinding clumping units together, 1 or 2 mines can do ridiculous damage. How exactly would it be fair if they can be produced 2 at a time and are 1 supply? Wow
On September 21 2012 04:52 HelloSon wrote: Nice, I like the widow mine changes. Makes dropping widow mines on workers more viable.
That's unfortunately true. I really thought blizzard wanted the WM to be a zone-controlling unit, not an harassing unit (like T need another one). Jesus, baneling drops without having to wait for drops + ventral sacs + +2 upgrade (you still need an armory, right?). un-fucking-believable.
Considering you can kill it before it burrows, and once it burrows you can force it to kill just one worker, then it's not that un-fucking-believable.
On September 21 2012 05:39 avilo wrote: Widow mine still 2 supply, so it'll still be pretty bad past the 7 min mark.
I can't believe you're complaining about the widow mine being 2 supply. Its splash does 60 dmg - one shotting workers, marines, lings etc. And with sc2's pathfinding clumping units together, 1 or 2 mines can do ridiculous damage. How exactly would it be fair if they can be produced 2 at a time and are 1 supply? Wow
On September 21 2012 06:13 SpikeStarcraft wrote: does the battle hellion then need bio upgrades?
Why is everyone asking this ridiculous question? No, of course not.
why not? bio needs bio upgrades.
maybe its a ridiculous concept to transform mech to bio and a bio unit using mech upgrades and getting healed by a medivac, and building biological units from a factory..
On September 21 2012 06:14 Garmer wrote: so now hellion can have + 6 upgrade?
=__=
Infantry Upgrades =/= Bio Upgrades. The BH will still get upgrades from the Armory. If not, then the BH would synergize altogether TOO well with the other bio units, and it wouldn't synergize AT ALL with the other mech units, officially running mech into the ground.
The battlehelion change is in my eyes absolutely amazing (Although it doesn't make any sense, but the gameplay drastically improves I think).
It allows Terran mech play to be more aggresive, because T can now actually make medivacs without simply wasting resources on a unit that will be utterly useless for the rest of the game apart from dropping. That should be exciting to watch at the very least, because as it stands right now (before the battlehelion change) Terran mech against Protoss honestly seems overly passive (aka just massing up a big tank ball). On top of that it probably is the buff that Terran mech needs against protoss to actually be able to soak up enough damage with their helions (otherwise the helions just die and immortals kill off the tanks with ease).
The thing that makes me the most excited is that it probably allows Terran to biomech against Toss (Marines, BH, medivacs and Siege tanks) since the battle helions actually benefit from the medivacs. I think this style will become pretty nice vs Toss, which allows T to do 3 different things vs protoss which is absolutely amazing.
I am a bit concerned about battlehelions in TvZ though... They might just completely break the match up in the way they are right now, but maybe Zerg can deal with it (especially with their new units).
On September 21 2012 06:21 Jerom wrote: The battlehelion change is in my eyes absolutely amazing (Although it doesn't make any sense, but the gameplay drastically improves I think).
It allows Terran mech play to be more aggresive, because T can now actually make medivacs without simply wasting resources on a unit that will be utterly useless for the rest of the game apart from dropping. That should be exciting to watch at the very least, because as it stands right now (before the battlehelion change) Terran mech against Protoss honestly seems overly passive (aka just massing up a big tank ball). On top of that it probably is the buff that Terran mech needs against protoss to actually be able to soak up enough damage with their helions (otherwise the helions just die and immortals kill off the tanks with ease).
The thing that makes me the most excited is that it probably allows Terran to biomech against Toss (Marines, BH, medivacs and Siege tanks) since the battle helions actually benefit from the medivacs. I think this style will become pretty nice vs Toss, which allows T to do 3 different things vs protoss which is absolutely amazing.
I am a bit concerned about battlehelions in TvZ though... They might just completely break the match up in the way they are right now, but maybe Zerg can deal with it (especially with their new units).
The thing is: Medivacs cost as. a lot of Gas. If I had that Gas I would build Ghosts. But I dont have Gas. Thats why TvP Mech isn viable right now. Its pretty nice but is just a nerf to pure mechplay (especially since Archons are now MORE stronger than even before.
This change is only helping biomech which will consist of Battlehellion+mmmvg since tanks are still "terrible" in tvp
On September 21 2012 06:21 Jerom wrote: The battlehelion change is in my eyes absolutely amazing (Although it doesn't make any sense, but the gameplay drastically improves I think).
It allows Terran mech play to be more aggresive, because T can now actually make medivacs without simply wasting resources on a unit that will be utterly useless for the rest of the game apart from dropping. That should be exciting to watch at the very least, because as it stands right now (before the battlehelion change) Terran mech against Protoss honestly seems overly passive (aka just massing up a big tank ball). On top of that it probably is the buff that Terran mech needs against protoss to actually be able to soak up enough damage with their helions (otherwise the helions just die and immortals kill off the tanks with ease).
There is never a scenario where you would ever want to drop hellions in battle mode.
You will definitely be going for the worker line, as hellions can't kill buildings for shit. Workers generally form some sort of line when running away, you will need speed to catch up to them, hellions in a mech comp generally are expendable.
BHs shorter but wider cone range and higher HP only really shine in engagement, not economic harassment.
On September 21 2012 06:25 SpikeStarcraft wrote: Why dont we let medivacs heal tanks and thors too? at least then it would be consistent and logical.
Wait, you want logic in a game where psychic-mouthless-plant-people warp in from other planets and fight with laser swords with a race of space truckers that have a sonic screwdriver that heals people from the sky?
On September 21 2012 06:25 SpikeStarcraft wrote: Why dont we let medivacs heal tanks and thors too? at least then it would be consistent and logical.
Wait, you want logic in a game where psychic-mouthless-plant-people warp in from other planets and fight with laser swords with a race of space truckers that have a sonic screwdriver that heals people from the sky?
Its a futuristic game but at least the logic is consistent within itself. I dont get why people arent able to distinguish between it.
On September 21 2012 04:53 LgNKami wrote: hopefully mech players will be happy wit these changes. all mech needs now is a slight tank buff and thor energy removed.
Tanks already got buffed in hots :< more +armored damage in siege mode.
Can you post a source for this? I tried out the unit tester and it was still the same, +3 vs light and +5 vs armored.
Okay so the vs light stays the same if I'm not mistaken? And it gets +7 now vs armored... I wonder why they didn't say that in any of the patch notes...
On September 21 2012 04:53 LgNKami wrote: hopefully mech players will be happy wit these changes. all mech needs now is a slight tank buff and thor energy removed.
Tanks already got buffed in hots :< more +armored damage in siege mode.
Can you post a source for this? I tried out the unit tester and it was still the same, +3 vs light and +5 vs armored.
Okay so the vs light stays the same if I'm not mistaken? And it gets +7 now vs armored... I wonder why they didn't say that in any of the patch notes...
On September 21 2012 06:25 SpikeStarcraft wrote: Why dont we let medivacs heal tanks and thors too? at least then it would be consistent and logical.
Wait, you want logic in a game where psychic-mouthless-plant-people warp in from other planets and fight with laser swords with a race of space truckers that have a sonic screwdriver that heals people from the sky?
Its a futuristic game but at least the logic is consistent within itself. I dont get why people arent able to distinguish between it.
Have you seen the concept art for the marauder? Or a firebat? They look like mechanical units. I can accept the fact that a battlehellion in battle form can be healed by the dropship's sonic screwdriver if those units are considered bio.
On September 21 2012 06:25 SpikeStarcraft wrote: Why dont we let medivacs heal tanks and thors too? at least then it would be consistent and logical.
Wait, you want logic in a game where psychic-mouthless-plant-people warp in from other planets and fight with laser swords with a race of space truckers that have a sonic screwdriver that heals people from the sky?
Its a futuristic game but at least the logic is consistent within itself. I dont get why people arent able to distinguish between it.
Agreed. There's in game lore for a reason. Everything fits together. You know what doesn't fit? A fucking mechanical unit that's now classified as bio. How in the hell does it go from being a go kart with a flame thrower, to optimus prime with a flamethrower and now he's bio? They really are running out of ideas on how to make terran better. It's really easy, buff the fucking tank. Make the tank the staple unit, not this other trash.
On September 21 2012 06:21 Jerom wrote: The battlehelion change is in my eyes absolutely amazing (Although it doesn't make any sense, but the gameplay drastically improves I think).
It allows Terran mech play to be more aggresive, because T can now actually make medivacs without simply wasting resources on a unit that will be utterly useless for the rest of the game apart from dropping. That should be exciting to watch at the very least, because as it stands right now (before the battlehelion change) Terran mech against Protoss honestly seems overly passive (aka just massing up a big tank ball). On top of that it probably is the buff that Terran mech needs against protoss to actually be able to soak up enough damage with their helions (otherwise the helions just die and immortals kill off the tanks with ease).
The thing that makes me the most excited is that it probably allows Terran to biomech against Toss (Marines, BH, medivacs and Siege tanks) since the battle helions actually benefit from the medivacs. I think this style will become pretty nice vs Toss, which allows T to do 3 different things vs protoss which is absolutely amazing.
I am a bit concerned about battlehelions in TvZ though... They might just completely break the match up in the way they are right now, but maybe Zerg can deal with it (especially with their new units).
On September 21 2012 05:15 Gumbotwins wrote: Its makes sense the battle hellions can be healed, What diffrent from a maurader and a battle hellion? Both got a driver inside and both having heavy armor.
wtf ? Siege tank, banshee, battlecruiser,........ ALL have 'drivers' inside. Zerglings are now officially obselete in zvt.
On September 21 2012 06:33 AxiR wrote: I love how Protoss gets some big buffs and everyone is talking about the bio-hellion thing.
yeah, it doesn't really make any sense that they'd go off and tweak purify in a way that makes that silly 1 base pvz attack even stronger
If you can't see that mothership core coming, you have larger problems than protoss all-ins. The thing is so slow it makes un-upgraded overlords look fast.
On September 21 2012 05:15 Gumbotwins wrote: Its makes sense the battle hellions can be healed, What diffrent from a maurader and a battle hellion? Both got a driver inside and both having heavy armor.
wtf ? Siege tank, banshee, battlecruiser,........ ALL have 'drivers' inside. Zerglings are now officially obselete in zvt.
Does it make sense for the Marine and Marauders mechanical armor to be healed by a medivac that can't heal mechanical units?
Seek sense elsewhere, bro.
(would be nice if there was some kind of logic though)
On September 21 2012 06:41 StarcraftNerd1547 wrote: Wow so that means infantry upgrades will work on battle hellions?
Even though i'm not to happy that we are back to only bio, it is still a really good patch!
They do not and the phrase bio and mech seem to be holding everyone back. Why can't a new units just be buffed and everyone try using it? It has to be better than trying to fit it into this concept of what people think factory units should do.
So I guess ZvT will now turn into another roachfest. And widow mines further kill muta play. I'm not playing HoTS if it stays similar to what they have now, it's seriously going downhill and I'm scared the people behind SC2 have no idea what they are doing anymore.
so a medivac drop with battlehellions can now not be a little by 100 lings ... so retarded why couldnt they stick with their concept this is just so fucking dumb.
On September 21 2012 06:10 Gamegene wrote: Fuck Blizzard.
Adding in Hellions to bio does not make it "Bio Mech", it makes it another intertangible part of the Bio ball.
Stop using cool edgy phrases like that and realize that this is just a really REALLY retarded idea.
The Battle Hellion is not affected by Bio Upgrades and is not built from a Barracks. You might be able to add some to your mix with a Reactored Factory, but how are you gonna keep up in upgrades?
Even if it adds to a Bio Ball in the late game, so what? Wasn't Chargelot/Archon supposedly this unbeatable composition which now has a solution?
On September 21 2012 05:15 Gumbotwins wrote: Its makes sense the battle hellions can be healed, What diffrent from a maurader and a battle hellion? Both got a driver inside and both having heavy armor.
wtf ? Siege tank, banshee, battlecruiser,........ ALL have 'drivers' inside. Zerglings are now officially obselete in zvt.
No, he didn't mean that, he meant that Hellion is an vehicle, but when he is transformed, he is just like an Marauder, a guy in large suit.
Btw, again, I love these changes. Especially the Widow Mines, but they might be too powerful right now in the middle of the fight. Still, they damage friendly units, which is great as counter! <3
On September 21 2012 04:48 y0su wrote: So battle hellions will can now be healed... but take more damage from archons.
That first part is way more awesome. It makes them kill zealots even more.
If you like the idea feel free to thank me as I posted it as a feedback/suggestion on the Bnet forum a week ago. If you hate the idea then...I had nothing to do with it. All Activision's fault. ^^
Well done sir. The medivac had no place in the current factorty based builds and it is one of the strongest abilities terran has. It being used with a factory based unit will just make the entire style of play more robust.
well i hope it loses its mechanical status though, cause healable and repairable battle hellion sounds OP
This is why I thoroughly dislike the current SC2 design team. They appear to be better suited to mechanical "balance" rather than good overall design. Hence we get units like the colossus, reaper, and biological battle hellion.
They've shifted things around without an eye to how it affects the overall system. Examples like changing overlord detection necessitating moving around tries haphazardly to accommodate. Obtuse siege units like the colossus that produce relatively stale air units all in the name of balance.
On September 21 2012 06:48 wangstra wrote: This is why I thoroughly dislike the current SC2 design team. They appear to be better suited to mechanical "balance" rather than good overall design. Hence we get units like the colossus, reaper, and biological battle hellion.
I do agree that this change seems to be coming more from the head than from the heart...
On September 21 2012 06:21 Jerom wrote: The battlehelion change is in my eyes absolutely amazing (Although it doesn't make any sense, but the gameplay drastically improves I think).
It allows Terran mech play to be more aggresive, because T can now actually make medivacs without simply wasting resources on a unit that will be utterly useless for the rest of the game apart from dropping. That should be exciting to watch at the very least, because as it stands right now (before the battlehelion change) Terran mech against Protoss honestly seems overly passive (aka just massing up a big tank ball). On top of that it probably is the buff that Terran mech needs against protoss to actually be able to soak up enough damage with their helions (otherwise the helions just die and immortals kill off the tanks with ease).
The thing that makes me the most excited is that it probably allows Terran to biomech against Toss (Marines, BH, medivacs and Siege tanks) since the battle helions actually benefit from the medivacs. I think this style will become pretty nice vs Toss, which allows T to do 3 different things vs protoss which is absolutely amazing.
I am a bit concerned about battlehelions in TvZ though... They might just completely break the match up in the way they are right now, but maybe Zerg can deal with it (especially with their new units).
Battle Hellions have been renamed Firebats and can now be produced from a barracks with tech lab.
In all seriousness though, I thought the battle hellions were added to give the mech army more hit points, back when the Thor was being removed? IMHO now that the Thor is back in, this unit isn't needed.
It would be nice if terran only had to upgrade one set of upgrades for bio and mech. Protoss only has to upgrade 2 ups(not including shield) for gateway and robo units...why cant terran :D
Side note: Very much liking this battlehellion change.
On September 21 2012 06:51 jared1259 wrote: HotS Balance Update #4 [9/22/2012]
Battle Hellions have been renamed Firebats and can now be produced from a barracks with tech lab.
In all seriousness though, I thought the battle hellions were added to give the mech army more hit points, back when the Thor was being removed? IMHO now that the Thor is back in, this unit isn't needed.
That was part of the reason, but it was mostly because normal hellions weren't good enough vs mass chargelots. Remove battle hellions and mech has this same weakness again, making it basically non-viable.
Mothership Core The cost of Purify is now 100. The duration of Purify has been lowered to 25 seconds. The damage of Purify has been increased from 25 to 45.
At 100 energy, it won't come early enough to affect the stability of PvP.
it's just so... wth. This is a car, a mech car, not a person. Ok, I suppose a marauder has just as much metal on them, but it still doesn't really make sense. If you can heal a battle hellion, you should be able to heal a viking, or a tank, or whatever.
Personally, I think a far better way of implementing this would be a fairly costly starport upgrade (150-200) called nano-engineers or something that allows medivacs to heal mech, period. You can have a provision in there that it doesn't work on massive units to prevent abuse with BC/thors, if that was ever likely.
There we go, provides a solution that isn't just a patch, it actively adds an element of significant choice to the game (mechivac is a choice that requires significant investment, thus requires planning and strategy on behalf of the player to execute, not just 'lol transitioning nao and hey look my medivacs ain't useless hur hur hur'
On September 21 2012 06:54 idkfa wrote: Mothership Core The cost of Purify is now 100. The duration of Purify has been lowered to 25 seconds. The damage of Purify has been increased from 25 to 45.
At 100 energy, it won't come early enough to affect the stability of PvP.
Early aggression isn't really the problem with PvP anymore. It's the lategame that's broken.
On September 21 2012 06:47 therockmanxx wrote: screw everything let the medivac heal everything !! Lol medivac can heal any unit now !! Even buildings Also they can repair destructable rocks !!
I already now the next type of rock for LOTV. 'X rocks' can now be destroyed. By falling upon other rocks, they heal this set of rocks and form a tower of rocks which can then be destroyed, spawning two sets of normal 'destructable' rocks.
And zerglings and mutalisks are obselete :D more boring roach and broodlord/infestor compositions.
On September 21 2012 06:52 xrapture wrote: So a unit designed to tank damage is changed to biological?
Why not just call it a firebat? Blizzard is really making it hard for Terran players to be excited for HOTS.
I wish Blizz stops taking ideas from BW and come up with new ideas.
More like, I wish blizzard wouldn't take ideas from BW and pass them around in a rape circle and beating them to shit, only to end up cooking them in a pile of dirt to later shit them out and call them the new saving grace for 'Bio MECH' LOOOOOOOL.
On September 21 2012 06:55 Thereisnosaurus wrote: it's just so... wth. This is a car, a mech car, not a person. Ok, I suppose a marauder has just as much metal on them, but it still doesn't really make sense. If you can heal a battle hellion, you should be able to heal a viking, or a tank, or whatever.
Personally, I think a far better way of implementing this would be a fairly costly starport upgrade (150-200) called nano-engineers or something that allows medivacs to heal mech, period. You can have a provision in there that it doesn't work on massive units to prevent abuse with BC/thors, if that was ever likely.
There we go, provides a solution that isn't just a patch, it actively adds an element of significant choice to the game (mechivac is a choice that requires significant investment, thus requires planning and strategy on behalf of the player to execute, not just 'lol transitioning nao and hey look my medivacs ain't useless hur hur hur'
Healable vikings would obliterate zergs, can't work.
Edit : Not to mention it would be insane against colossi as well. Makes storm and fungal almost useless against them since those spells don't stack.
On September 21 2012 06:51 jared1259 wrote: HotS Balance Update #4 [9/22/2012]
Battle Hellions have been renamed Firebats and can now be produced from a barracks with tech lab.
In all seriousness though, I thought the battle hellions were added to give the mech army more hit points, back when the Thor was being removed? IMHO now that the Thor is back in, this unit isn't needed.
That was part of the reason, but it was mostly because normal hellions weren't good enough vs mass chargelots. Remove battle hellions and mech has this same weakness again, making it basically non-viable.
I'm frustrated with blizzard giving Terran units or unit combos that completely hard counter zerg units. How is a zerg player supposed to engage an army with battle hellions, medivacs and tanks? It completely shuts down lings, banes and roaches. I know first thing everyone is going to say is air, but if you make reactored starports part of the core mech army, terran will already be prepped for the transition.
Can anyone explain me why the Battle hellions are getting healed in robot mode? What does the robot mode have ANYTHING to do with biological?
It's a really dumb idea to begin with and to make the slightest bit of sense it should be one or the other, not 2 types of units. Either leave them as mech 100% of the time or bio 100% of the time but you can't switch between one and the other while staying in the same god damn robot thing.
Ok. You could say that they get heals in robot mode just like the marauders do since they are in the same kind of robot. That doesn't make sense either, marauders are robots with a human inside just like the tanks and thors are robots with humans inside? Aren't missile turrets somewhat big robots with a human inside too? How come they dont get healed by the magic green laserbeam through their armor like battle hellions and marauders? How do they even... ok nm.
At this point, make the marauders tranform into small warhounds so they can also switch between their robot-bio mode and their robot-bio mech mode. So you can, you know, switch bio and mech with your bio and mech. Wait what?
Yeah exactly, Blizzard doesn't know what they are doing.
There was this awesome game once upon a time called SC. After 2 or 3 years, they introduced BW with about 8 new units. Did any of these 8 units get their numbers/abilities/role/cost/whatnot EVER changed in the last.. 14 years? They are the exact same damn units that blizzard released. No massive beta testing. No massive community to rely on. At that time, Blizzard KNEW WTF they were doing and didn't look silly like the new SC2 team, trying to balance their units by changing them every week or so and sometimes even completly changing the role of the units. This is a proof to me that Blizzard is lost and they must produce 2 expansions for WoL because Blizzard's heads decided to make a lot of money with 2 expansions.
Now they are trying to replicate the BW gameplay but they refuse to reuse the BW units which leads us to this clusterfuck.
On September 21 2012 06:47 therockmanxx wrote: screw everything let the medivac heal everything !! Lol medivac can heal any unit now !! Even buildings Also they can repair destructable rocks !!
I already now the next type of rock for LOTV. 'X rocks' can now be destroyed. By falling upon other rocks, they heal this set of rocks and form a tower of rocks which can then be destroyed, spawning two sets of normal 'destructable' rocks.
And zerglings and mutalisks are obselete :D more boring roach and broodlord/infestor compositions.
On September 21 2012 06:52 xrapture wrote: So a unit designed to tank damage is changed to biological?
Why not just call it a firebat? Blizzard is really making it hard for Terran players to be excited for HOTS.
I wish Blizz stops taking ideas from BW and come up with new ideas.
More like, I wish blizzard wouldn't take ideas from BW and pass them around in a rape circle and beating them to shit, only to end up cooking them in a pile of dirt to later shit them out and call them the new saving grace for 'Bio MECH' LOOOOOOOL.
On September 21 2012 06:54 idkfa wrote: Mothership Core The cost of Purify is now 100. The duration of Purify has been lowered to 25 seconds. The damage of Purify has been increased from 25 to 45.
At 100 energy, it won't come early enough to affect the stability of PvP.
Early aggression isn't really the problem with PvP anymore. It's the lategame that's broken.
Have you ever heard the expression for PvP, "whoever expands first, loses"?
On September 21 2012 06:09 renaissanceMAN wrote: just for the love of god, remove the battle hellion, keep the original hellion and give us the firebat.
it'll make more sense for those who aren't trying to competitively play the game, and for spectators.
On September 21 2012 07:00 baba1 wrote: Can anyone explain me why the Battle hellions are getting healed in robot mode? What does the robot mode have ANYTHING to do with biological?
It's a really dumb idea to begin with and to make the slightest bit of sense it should be one or the other, not 2 types of units. Either leave them as mech 100% of the time or bio 100% of the time but you can't switch between one and the other while staying in the same god damn robot thing.
Ok. You could say that they get heals in robot mode just like the marauders do since they are in the same kind of robot. That doesn't make sense either, marauders are robots with a human inside just like the tanks and thors are robots with humans inside? Aren't missile turrets somewhat big robots with a human inside too? How come they dont get healed by the magic green laserbeam through their armor like battle hellions and marauders? How do they even... ok nm.
At this point, make the marauders tranform into small warhounds so they can also switch between their robot-bio mode and their robot-bio mech mode. So you can, you know, switch bio and mech with your bio and mech. Wait what?
Yeah exactly, Blizzard doesn't know what they are doing.
There was this awesome game once upon a time called SC. After 2 or 3 years, they introduced BW with about 8 new units. Did any of these 8 units get their numbers/abilities/role/cost/whatnot EVER changed in the last.. 14 years? They are the exact same damn units that blizzard released. No massive beta testing. No massive community to rely on. At that time, Blizzard KNEW WTF they were doing and didn't look silly like the new SC2 team, trying to balance their units by changing them every week or so and sometimes even completly changing the role of the units. This is a proof to me that Blizzard is lost and they must produce 2 expansions for WoL because Blizzard's heads decided to make a lot of money with 2 expansions.
Now they are trying to replicate the BW gameplay but they refuse to reuse the BW units which leads us to this clusterfuck.
On September 21 2012 06:47 therockmanxx wrote: screw everything let the medivac heal everything !! Lol medivac can heal any unit now !! Even buildings Also they can repair destructable rocks !!
I already now the next type of rock for LOTV. 'X rocks' can now be destroyed. By falling upon other rocks, they heal this set of rocks and form a tower of rocks which can then be destroyed, spawning two sets of normal 'destructable' rocks.
And zerglings and mutalisks are obselete :D more boring roach and broodlord/infestor compositions.
On September 21 2012 06:53 SarcasmMonster wrote:
On September 21 2012 06:52 xrapture wrote: So a unit designed to tank damage is changed to biological?
Why not just call it a firebat? Blizzard is really making it hard for Terran players to be excited for HOTS.
I wish Blizz stops taking ideas from BW and come up with new ideas.
More like, I wish blizzard wouldn't take ideas from BW and pass them around in a rape circle and beating them to shit, only to end up cooking them in a pile of dirt to later shit them out and call them the new saving grace for 'Bio MECH' LOOOOOOOL.
Wtf is a rape circle?
it doesn't take much imaginiation to know what it is..
Welcome back firebats, almost all of us missed you. I like the mine buff, it might lead to more rain style heavy obs play, denying drops and preventing mines from wiping out an entire army. It seems like blizz isn't quite sure what to do with the Oracle, even more changes. Heres hoping for more mech play from terran!
On September 21 2012 04:54 BookII wrote: So, It's officially a firebat?
not until it gets stimpack
Patch #4 "Battle Hellions now have an ability upgrade (hotkey T) called "Nitrous Oxide Engine" increasing their movement and attack speed by 50% for 15 seconds.
Terrans get great buffs, everyone feeling quite happy about it. Good direction away from whenever zerg got something cool suddenly these forums became full of hatred.
Even though it can't stim and it doesn't get infantry upgrades and it comes way later in the game... I think that Blizz would actually benefit from renaming this unit the Firebat, because then it would seem like a new unit to casual buyers.
here what i think from the patch from a high level korean players , that a fake buff in t v p and a nerf in t v z , my english suck but plz read , im bringing alot of good point for discussion .
im not sure that a very high buff in t v p , since most good protoss player still do the fast colosus into high templar build at high level they will have ALOT of archon , who will kill the poor battlehellion easy since they will do extra dmg . storm will kill them also , better , no one have bring that , but that a pretty big point , because curently the problem about t v p outside HOTS , that because protoss are op late game , and making battlehelion bio will only make thing worst , im honestly not sure what blizzard do , or if they are stupid , think about anything or they want something like that ......
about the t v z , before the patch some good zerg player got some dificulty vs battlehellion early late game , mostly one kind of push vs the almost standar double exp play from zerg.... , now they make them bio so infestor will own them better using fungal ,also that a nerf in t v z mech play , where in this matchup YOU NEED all the gaz you can got vs the coming broodlord/infestor now you will also need to build medivac , very gaz heavy unit .
im happy about the dmg increase of the mine but overall that a wortless unit and easy to make them not cost effective using cheap unit , the warhound was so much better but got removed , they could have make them work in a way they could have keep them , they were the anwser in t v p mech play , battlehelion are fake hope who will change nothing late game t v p .
also the HEAVY buff from everything protoss got , make me a litle worry , because curently outside the beta , protoss are literaly RAPING the other race in korea in most tournament . the last months was protoss months and the next one look like the same.
what i hate about terran , that blizzard NEVER BUFF them WHERE they realy need it , just reading this topic people were thinking that was a big buff for terran , all matchup , was going make mech work t v p and stuft like that.... , that true about people saying for 1-1-1 or early game that a buff for terran , but terran are strong enough in early mid game , they dont need any change , where they need help that late game in most matchup , and so far blizzard do nothing for fix that in any matchup , so terran will still suck , and all the problem the race got are not fixed in hots.
TLDR: kill them before late game or you are dead still apply for HOTS for terran in all matchup .
so far this hots exp look bad for terran and will only make all matchup harder , get ready terran fellow , because the other race got real unit and buff who make them better while terran got the same crap each patch.
On September 21 2012 06:51 jared1259 wrote: HotS Balance Update #4 [9/22/2012]
Battle Hellions have been renamed Firebats and can now be produced from a barracks with tech lab.
In all seriousness though, I thought the battle hellions were added to give the mech army more hit points, back when the Thor was being removed? IMHO now that the Thor is back in, this unit isn't needed.
That was part of the reason, but it was mostly because normal hellions weren't good enough vs mass chargelots. Remove battle hellions and mech has this same weakness again, making it basically non-viable.
I'm frustrated with blizzard giving Terran units or unit combos that completely hard counter zerg units. How is a zerg player supposed to engage an army with battle hellions, medivacs and tanks? It completely shuts down lings, banes and roaches. I know first thing everyone is going to say is air, but if you make reactored starports part of the core mech army, terran will already be prepped for the transition.
Kinda like Broodlord infestor counter everything right now?
All this does is make MMMVG now also include the Hellion as a standard tanking unit. It doesn't solve any of the more fundamental problems of using mech vs Protoss.
I'm opposed to the Hellion change. It's a weird bandaid fix if I've ever seen one.
Actually I like the BioHellion idea. Blizz is experimenting as they fucking should. This is so far out of the box, I don´t think anyone expected blizzard to do it. Next thing you know there will be a unit having 2 types of attack dependent on different upgrades(ground viking be mech, air viking be air) or even crazier, the carrier could receive it´s very first change since WoL Alpha version.
Ps: Also I think they should put the Thor on tracks or wheels as then you could justify medivac heal requiring legs xD
On September 21 2012 07:03 andeh wrote: Imagine, being able to drop 4 hellions into a mineral line
and then healing them
As terrifying as this sounds to my Zerg ears, it does add an interesting question for a Terran - would you rather drop Hellions in a mode where you can chase down Drones, or one where you can heal them as they're being attacked?
I suppose you could start in buggy mode, kill as many Drones as possible, and then transform to battle mode when the lings and queens arrive. There'll be a slight period of risk as they're transforming, but the HP gain and capability to be healed would be worth it.
meh I liked Hellions because they keep stuff away from my tanks. Now HTs will feedback my Thors and storm the non battle mode hellions, morph into Archons and absorb my siege tank shots and melt Hellions super fast and make path for the Immortals to move in and massacre everything armored. At the end yeah, got to have Ghosts with your mech still. The change is no biggy though as it adds more skill needed to mech and makes you want to have Medivacs for drops, but it just sounds so wrong.
Would have been fine with the Widow mine being 1 supply, but double splash damage is an even huger buff wow. Now I only need a single mine to completely destroy a workerslide hehe. Oracle sounds like it will become a more annoying scout now, not as good as a Warp Prism though.
MSCore still has the perfect speed to arrive fully loaded and in time to support a timing push. But now the let the toss has his fun time is reduced.
Just change Viking ground mode to non armored then too, so they can start tanking for mech in WoL too.
On September 21 2012 07:12 GungraveHero2 wrote: here what i think from the patch from a high level korean players , that a fake buff in t v p and a nerf in t v z , my english suck but plz read , im bringing alot of good point for discussion .
im not sure that a very high buff in t v p , since most good protoss player still do the fast colosus into high templar build at high level they will have ALOT of archon , who will kill the poor battlehellion easy since they will do extra dmg . storm will kill them also , better , no one have bring that , but that a pretty big point , because curently the problem about t v p outside HOTS , that because protoss are op late game , and making battlehelion bio will only make thing worst , im honestly not sure what blizzard do , or if they are stupid , think about anything or they want something like that ......
about the t v z , before the patch some good zerg player got some dificulty vs battlehellion early late game , mostly one kind of push vs the almost standar double exp play from zerg.... , now they make them bio so infestor will own them better using fungal ,also that a nerf in t v z mech play , where in this matchup YOU NEED all the gaz you can got vs the coming broodlord/infestor now you will also need to build medivac , very gaz heavy unit .
im happy about the dmg increase of the mine but overall that a wortless unit and easy to make them not cost effective using cheap unit , the warhound was so much better but got removed , they could have make them work in a way they could have keep them , they were the anwser in t v p mech play , battlehelion are fake hope who will change nothing late game t v p .
also the HEAVY buff from everything protoss got , make me a litle worry , because curently outside the beta , protoss are literaly RAPING the other race in korea in most tournament . the last months was protoss months and the next one look like the same.
what i hate about terran , that blizzard NEVER BUFF them WHERE they realy need it , just reading this topic people were thinking that was a big buff for terran , all matchup , was going make mech work t v p and stuft like that.... , that true about people saying for 1-1-1 or early game that a buff for terran , but terran are strong enough in early mid game , they dont need any change , where they need help that late game in most matchup , and so far blizzard do nothing for fix that in any matchup , so terran will still suck , and all the problem the race got are not fixed in hots.
TLDR: kill them before late game or you are dead still apply for HOTS for terran in all matchup .
so far this hots exp look bad for terran and will only make all matchup harder , get ready terran fellow , because the other race got real unit and buff who make them better while terran got the same crap each patch.
I disagree... like completely. Battle hellions weren't NERFED in any way. Making them biological (i don't like it but meh) just gives them more functionality. If you want to build medivacs to make them live more, then build them. But not building medivacs is no worse than it currently is. Battle hellions definitely do help terran mech in late game. Mass chargelot isn't nearly as effective because battle hellions soak up so much damage.
The hell? Infestors won't own them more with bio.... fungal doesn't do extra damage to bio units, and the size of the battle hellion hasn't changed. There is literally zero way that a "biological" change can nerf TvZ, because the only difference in damage is archons doing more to biological, which Z doesn't have. It's a straight up buff to them being heal-able, much like marines are heal-able, you don't have to build medivacs, but doing so greatly increases the effectiveness of the unit.
Protoss only got one real buff (the oracle) which is really only an early game harasser. Mothership... I don't like the buff. Higher energy requirement, shorter duration. The attacks might be more "efficient" (one shotting marines and lings) but I still don't like the design of the mothership core. It's way better than not having one, but it could be way better than it is now imo.
On September 21 2012 07:00 jared1259 wrote: I'm frustrated with blizzard giving Terran units or unit combos that completely hard counter zerg units. How is a zerg player supposed to engage an army with battle hellions, medivacs and tanks? It completely shuts down lings, banes and roaches. I know first thing everyone is going to say is air, but if you make reactored starports part of the core mech army, terran will already be prepped for the transition.
Kinda like Broodlord infestor counter everything right now?
Well at least Broodlord-Infestor is very gas-heavy and takes a while to get to, this new mech would come out much much faster.
Not that I'm calling OP or anything, it's way too early to tell. But it does sound scary!
On September 21 2012 07:23 FeyFey wrote: meh I liked Hellions because they keep stuff away from my tanks. Now HTs will feedback my Thors and storm the non battle mode hellions, morph into Archons and absorb my siege tank shots and melt Hellions super fast and make path for the Immortals to move in and massacre everything armored.
Yeah I don't think this change helps pure mech work any better in TvP. It just adds an additional late-game anti-Zealot option to standard bio, which is probably still welcome. (The question is would they be worth it even without any upgrades, and just built from a couple of factories?)
if some wise soul can shed some clarity: the helion/battle helion dynamic isnt making sense to me?
the helion from WOL will remain reactor-buildable whereas the battle helion isnt, and needs an upgrade so that it can be built from a tech lab? can't you just build them from reactor twice as fast and transform them? are they separate units or can they still go between each other? and the helion isnt bio, but the battle helion is? so medivacs can heal one form and not the other?
Mines are probably the best thing in HotS Period.. Seriously they need to be strong, forces extra micro from the opponent which in itself is already fantastic. Cough *anti deathball unit* Cough
This hellion change has generated the most hilarious responses I have ever seen on TL... my sides hurt! If only l was driving right now, I could get a medivac to heal me.
I agree with the widow mine buff. Let's see how it's going to unfold.
Also about the bio hellion, it may be an interesting mechanic from a design perspective, however it doesn't sound very logical at all. A mech unit that's classified as bio?
On September 21 2012 07:03 andeh wrote: Imagine, being able to drop 4 hellions into a mineral line
and then healing them
As terrifying as this sounds to my Zerg ears, it does add an interesting question for a Terran - would you rather drop Hellions in a mode where you can chase down Drones, or one where you can heal them as they're being attacked?
I suppose you could start in buggy mode, kill as many Drones as possible, and then transform to battle mode when the lings and queens arrive. There'll be a slight period of risk as they're transforming, but the HP gain and capability to be healed would be worth it.
Or you can, make 2 Hellions in Battle Mode and other 2 in normal mode.
Call me a genius.
On September 21 2012 07:26 Alryk wrote: Protoss only got one real buff (the oracle) which is really only an early game harasser. Mothership... I don't like the buff. Higher energy requirement, shorter duration. The attacks might be more "efficient" (one shotting marines and lings) but I still don't like the design of the mothership core. It's way better than not having one, but it could be way better than it is now imo.
Mothership Core's purifier was actually nerfed. Yes, it got increase in damage, but the duration is a lot shorter and energy cost is pretty big too. Well, maybe it wasn't even a nerf, but it was a change, not actual buff either.
Oracle Entomb’s duration has increased to 30 seconds. The health of Entombed nodes has increased from 100 to 130. The duration of Revelation has increased from 30 to 45 seconds. We fixed a bug where the oracle was not correctly classified as a Psionic unit.
130hp and 30s on all mineral patch for only 150gaz, that's so sick !
Widow Mine Splash damage has increased from 35 to 60.
OMG OMG OMG ! Seriously ? A mine (75 25) in each future expand and instant all kill of all workers coming ?
Idk like the BH change, since I think healing with medivacs is too good, and the only "downside" is from archons, which I don't think is that big of a deal...
Blizzard keeps outdoing themselves with those changes. Next thing landed vikings are considered biological and sieged tank is really a structure. But seriously - terran changes have potential to do more harm than good. Bio hellions won't solve any problems of mech since it doesn't use medivacs and they are unlikely to affect bio play due to different upgrades. Widow mines are just heading in the wrong direction altogether as they are now capable of eradicating stacked mutas with 2 shots when they should be a primarily an anti-ground unit. This game will turn into quite the mess if this keeps up.
On September 21 2012 06:51 jared1259 wrote: HotS Balance Update #4 [9/22/2012]
Battle Hellions have been renamed Firebats and can now be produced from a barracks with tech lab.
In all seriousness though, I thought the battle hellions were added to give the mech army more hit points, back when the Thor was being removed? IMHO now that the Thor is back in, this unit isn't needed.
That was part of the reason, but it was mostly because normal hellions weren't good enough vs mass chargelots. Remove battle hellions and mech has this same weakness again, making it basically non-viable.
I'm frustrated with blizzard giving Terran units or unit combos that completely hard counter zerg units. How is a zerg player supposed to engage an army with battle hellions, medivacs and tanks? It completely shuts down lings, banes and roaches. I know first thing everyone is going to say is air, but if you make reactored starports part of the core mech army, terran will already be prepped for the transition.
Kinda like Broodlord infestor counter everything right now?
On September 21 2012 07:29 the_business_og wrote: if some wise soul can shed some clarity: the helion/battle helion dynamic isnt making sense to me?
the helion from WOL will remain reactor-buildable whereas the battle helion isnt, and needs an upgrade so that it can be built from a tech lab? can't you just build them from reactor twice as fast and transform them? are they separate units or can they still go between each other? and the helion isnt bio, but the battle helion is? so medivacs can heal one form and not the other?
Looks like I'm not the only one who is really confused on wtf the hellion has become. Blizzard forgot to put sense in this whole thing, they probably lost it somewhere.
On September 21 2012 07:03 andeh wrote: Imagine, being able to drop 4 hellions into a mineral line
and then healing them
As terrifying as this sounds to my Zerg ears, it does add an interesting question for a Terran - would you rather drop Hellions in a mode where you can chase down Drones, or one where you can heal them as they're being attacked?
I suppose you could start in buggy mode, kill as many Drones as possible, and then transform to battle mode when the lings and queens arrive. There'll be a slight period of risk as they're transforming, but the HP gain and capability to be healed would be worth it.
Or you can, make 2 Hellions in Battle Mode and other 2 in normal mode.
On September 21 2012 07:26 Alryk wrote: Protoss only got one real buff (the oracle) which is really only an early game harasser. Mothership... I don't like the buff. Higher energy requirement, shorter duration. The attacks might be more "efficient" (one shotting marines and lings) but I still don't like the design of the mothership core. It's way better than not having one, but it could be way better than it is now imo.
Mothership Core's purifier was actually nerfed. Yes, it got increase in damage, but the duration is a lot shorter and energy cost is pretty big too. Well, maybe it wasn't even a nerf, but it was a change, not actual buff either.
My thoughts pretty much exactly. I shouldn't have called it a buff, I didn't mean it to be heh. I think the mothership core should have an energy cost per attack (maybe slightly higher than the "average energy/attack over 25 seconds") so that like each attack costs 10 energy (find a good amount, just an example.) And give the mothership a leash range (22 or something, long but not long enough to attack) to the nexus, halve its movement speed, and bring back teleport, so it becomes more of a dynamic defensive unit. And increase range on purify imo, since movement speed + leash range are changed.
Is this true? What is the current damage vs armored?
I don't think the tank is any different from the WoL tank. I haven't clicked on one, but it doesn't feel any more powerful.
On September 21 2012 07:52 bgx wrote: I used to be negative about all of this, but now im actually smiling when i read those balance updates. Thank you blizzard.
but are you smiling because of the absurdity or because blizzard is actually trying to make this game better?
can't believe I actually typed the last half of that sentence.
On September 21 2012 07:54 monkybone wrote: At first I was in disbelief, but then I realized how awesome this is. Good guy blizzard, good patches all around.
Well, as usual, most of the Terran players right now are whining without even realizing how good this patch is for Terran players. Both buffs are just straight buffs, and are pretty huge, and makes new units more than dynamic and viable.
On September 21 2012 07:03 andeh wrote: Imagine, being able to drop 4 hellions into a mineral line
and then healing them
As terrifying as this sounds to my Zerg ears, it does add an interesting question for a Terran - would you rather drop Hellions in a mode where you can chase down Drones, or one where you can heal them as they're being attacked?
I suppose you could start in buggy mode, kill as many Drones as possible, and then transform to battle mode when the lings and queens arrive. There'll be a slight period of risk as they're transforming, but the HP gain and capability to be healed would be worth it.
Or you can, make 2 Hellions in Battle Mode and other 2 in normal mode.
Call me a genius.
On September 21 2012 07:26 Alryk wrote: Protoss only got one real buff (the oracle) which is really only an early game harasser. Mothership... I don't like the buff. Higher energy requirement, shorter duration. The attacks might be more "efficient" (one shotting marines and lings) but I still don't like the design of the mothership core. It's way better than not having one, but it could be way better than it is now imo.
Mothership Core's purifier was actually nerfed. Yes, it got increase in damage, but the duration is a lot shorter and energy cost is pretty big too. Well, maybe it wasn't even a nerf, but it was a change, not actual buff either.
My thoughts pretty much exactly. I shouldn't have called it a buff, I didn't mean it to be heh. I think the mothership core should have an energy cost per attack (maybe slightly higher than the "average energy/attack over 25 seconds") so that like each attack costs 10 energy (find a good amount, just an example.) And give the mothership a leash range (22 or something, long but not long enough to attack) to the nexus, halve its movement speed, and bring back teleport, so it becomes more of a dynamic defensive unit. And increase range on purify imo, since movement speed + leash range are changed.
On September 21 2012 07:52 Alryk wrote: I don't think the tank is any different from the WoL tank. I haven't clicked on one, but it doesn't feel any more powerful.
Only damage scaling vs. armored in siege mode was different by 2 or 3 more damage per weapon upgrade. It might have been rolled back per 'bug fixing' tho.
On September 21 2012 07:54 monkybone wrote: At first I was in disbelief, but then I realized how awesome this is. Good guy blizzard, good patches all around.
Well, as usual, most of the Terran players right now are whining without even realizing how good this patch is for Terran players. Both buffs are just straight buffs, and are pretty huge, and makes new units more than dynamic and viable.
I don't even think it's whining, I think they're complaining about something that really doesn't change anything *I'm a terran player and I think BH becoming Bio gives it more survivability against collosus (as a mech player)*
The only issue I have is that they still refuse to allow Terran to have a good cornerstone unit in the tank.
Well let's wait and see how does mech play now vs toss then judge. Putting battle hellion as bio aside this change is actually interesting. Becouse mech mostly work like protoss army (great in big numbers) now we might see some non camping to 200/200 mech style.
I really want a beta key. Every time bliz buff anything I get excited (I'm random so I don't care which race gets the buffs), but I don't get to play with this stuff!
On September 21 2012 07:54 monkybone wrote: At first I was in disbelief, but then I realized how awesome this is. Good guy blizzard, good patches all around.
Well, as usual, most of the Terran players right now are whining without even realizing how good this patch is for Terran players. Both buffs are just straight buffs, and are pretty huge, and makes new units more than dynamic and viable.
Well, it's both a nerf and a buff. This makes archons extremely powerful against mech, which is a nerf. But it gives an interesting dynamic to TvP. But the healing ability and viable drop potential makes up for it by far.
I just hope blizzard will give tanks a late game upgrade to buff their attack vs shields.
That is very small nerf compared to the buff. Archons are like the only units that will kill Hellions faster, while Hellions are now much much better in every other situation. Also, Archons maybe won't even touch the Hellions because of the Widow Mines.
On September 21 2012 07:54 monkybone wrote: At first I was in disbelief, but then I realized how awesome this is. Good guy blizzard, good patches all around.
Well, as usual, most of the Terran players right now are whining without even realizing how good this patch is for Terran players. Both buffs are just straight buffs, and are pretty huge, and makes new units more than dynamic and viable.
Well, it's both a nerf and a buff. This makes archons extremely powerful against mech, which is a nerf. But it gives an interesting dynamic to TvP. But the healing ability and viable drop potential makes up for it by far.
I just hope blizzard will give tanks a late game upgrade to buff their attack vs shields.
That is very small nerf compared to the buff. Archons are like the only units that will kill Hellions faster, while Hellions are now much much better in every other situation. Also, Archons maybe won't even touch the Hellions because of the Widow Mines.
Takes like 5 mines or something to kill an archon! :p
On September 21 2012 07:54 monkybone wrote: At first I was in disbelief, but then I realized how awesome this is. Good guy blizzard, good patches all around.
Well, as usual, most of the Terran players right now are whining without even realizing how good this patch is for Terran players. Both buffs are just straight buffs, and are pretty huge, and makes new units more than dynamic and viable.
Well, it's both a nerf and a buff. This makes archons extremely powerful against mech, which is a nerf. But it gives an interesting dynamic to TvP. But the healing ability and viable drop potential makes up for it by far.
I just hope blizzard will give tanks a late game upgrade to buff their attack vs shields.
That is very small nerf compared to the buff. Archons are like the only units that will kill Hellions faster, while Hellions are now much much better in every other situation. Also, Archons maybe won't even touch the Hellions because of the Widow Mines.
Takes like 5 mines or something to kill an archon! :p
Actually, it takes 2 to put them on 10 hp and 30 shield left from 350. Mines do 160 single target damage. Do the math.
On September 21 2012 05:34 obsid wrote: I feel some kind of scv+medivac+blue flame battle hellion pushes are going to be really strong. The scv healing was already quite a bit, you add medivac healing on top of scv healing together.... No other unit right now can be scv healed and medivac healed at the same time.
On September 21 2012 06:02 avilo wrote: Blizzard says they want mech tvp viable.
Nerf battle hellion making it take more damage from archons.
Facepalm*
They said the complete opposite, don't be so ignorant.
Don't blame the guy because Blizzard changes his mind every week about what they want to do with that matchup.
Probably because they really don't know what to do with it. We'll see what happens with HOTS, it's getting a bit murky now.
Well, Battle Hellions being bio does make the transition from mech to bio smoother, and also encourages more mobile mech play outside of Hellions. Player is encouraged to get Medivacs, and then he might be thinking "I got all those medivacs, I mind as well do some drops or get some bio".
I like it as a spectator, but it definitely feels awkward that a unit has to transform in order to get heals.
On September 21 2012 06:02 avilo wrote: Blizzard says they want mech tvp viable.
Nerf battle hellion making it take more damage from archons.
Facepalm*
They said the complete opposite, don't be so ignorant.
Don't blame the guy because Blizzard changes his mind every week about what they want to do with that matchup.
Because it's a beta they're allowed to do that. They've tried to make mech work without turtling up with Siege Tanks with Warhounds which didn't work so they've scrapped the idea totally and are now trying to focus on Mech/Bio mixes
I'm looking forward to trying MMM+H for standard play and Mara + Medivac + 2 fact Hellion openings then Ghosts if they go straight into Templar tech.
Why do so many people assume that a bio BH will use infantry upgrade? The patch notes did not say anything like that. Also the patch notes didn't say anything about the BH losing its mechanical trait, so it is probably bio and mech at the same time. I think this change is a great improvement on gameplay, but it really does not make any sense lore wise. Hopefully, they can twist the lore (or how it looks) a little to make it more believable. It is just really hard to accept that a driver in a car is not biological while the same driver in the same car that has turned into a transformer is.
The biological change is really stupid in my opinion. Might as well just take away the battle helion and add the FireBat, This makes mech almost completely useless now and makes Bio an even BETTER option.
On September 21 2012 08:42 Shikyo wrote: How are they biological?
...
Blizzard just throwing the lore out the window -.- Even though it's an interesting change otherwise, I can't really approve because it makes no sense.
Rest of it seems allright, pretty conservative.
In battle mode instead of a guy driving a car, it's pretty much a guy in an exoskeleton just like Firebats/Marauders .
On September 21 2012 08:43 FortMonty wrote: The biological change is really stupid in my opinion. Might as well just take away the battle helion and add the FireBat, This makes mech almost completely useless now and makes Bio an even BETTER option.
Would Firebats come from the Factory, benefit from Mech upgrades, and be able to transform into a more-mobile form?
On September 21 2012 08:43 FortMonty wrote: The biological change is really stupid in my opinion. Might as well just take away the battle helion and add the FireBat, This makes mech almost completely useless now and makes Bio an even BETTER option.
Nah its not kind of big change for mech. Sure its a nerf in TvP but its okayish.
Remember the Firebat did cost 25 additional gas and had 35 hp less (and 2 basedamage less). This way we will be seeing some interesting biomech I hope. Only thing I dont like about it is that Firebat..ehm Battle Hellion doesnt have stim so it is never able to retreat liek the other biounits
On September 21 2012 08:48 OrganicDoom wrote: battle hellion drops will be a nightmare for zerg now that they can be healed.
They are quite slow, you can just pull the workers and use roachs to kill them, and their damage against structures is quite low. If you want to harass workers, hellion/marine drops are better, if you want to snipe structures marines/marauders are better.
I don't like battle hellion change. It doesn't feel terranish at all.
The whole point of the race in BW was clear distinction between different tech paths of the race making their combined usage extremely timing based and skill demanding. Terran usually commited to one tech path with a very limited support from others and compensated disadvatages of the chosen path (like low survivability of bio or immobility of mech) with proper execution, accepting their weaknesses while embracing strength: going nuts with bio aggression and multitask or eating up the map methodically and slowly picking opponent apart with their mech force basically turning match into grand chees game.
As a side note, mech in pro games wasn't boring to watch at all because it forced your opponent to react (he couldn't just sit there and watch terran take his half of thr map freely) which also made vulture counter harass extremely potent and fun to watch.
What happens now is not how terran should've solved thier problems. SC2 terran tries to be good at everything at the same time so instead of displaying variety of completely unique, extreme styles of play this whole 'race as a whole' philosophy will most likely make us look completely SC2-zerg and SC2-toss alikes (which is already partially true in WoL).
I hope Blizzard finally understands that making races look completely different from each other designwise is not just some stupid Lore contribution but the most effective and fun way to bring variety into the game, which is not the case with WoL where we have 2 blob-focused races and terran.
I sincerely wish you good luck Blizzard and suggest you watch some BW VoDs from 9-10 and 10-11 seasons.
Its good that blizzard, is making the medivac more viable in Meching. Good on them I dont mind the Bio, from factory thing. The widow mine change, was necessary.
I cant wait to get HOTS. Has blizz said a release date.
Wait... so we really do have firebats, now. Except they can all jump on motorcycles when they need to move fast. Honestly, that change makes very little sense to me.
Happy about the widow mine splash, although I still think it shouldn't hit air in exchange for being vastly cheaper.
From a zerg point of view, I don't like the battle hellion bio change. To be healed by the medivacs is too strong in the early game. Although terran should technically be very strong in the early game but the healing property of a battle hellion just makes it too strong. The battle hellion needs to have its bio stat removed and have some sort of biosteel healing upgrade at the techlab like the blue flame implemented. This way zergs has a fair chance to defend from harassment early game and can get slaughtered late game if not careful and against protoss mass zealots, battle hellions healing ability is still viable to a mech build.
From a race discrepancy point of view biosteel upgrade makes more sense than a bio stat on the battle hellion.
This Firebat comparison is kind of overstated, because it's like.
"Oh look, we have Firebats. That benefit from Vehicle upgrades. And can't stim. And can be repaired by SCVs. And have an Armory requirement. And can turn into Vultures." LOL.
On September 21 2012 09:13 sighsigh wrote: From a zerg point of view, I don't like the battle hellion bio change. To be healed by the medivacs is too strong in the early game. Although terran should technically be very strong in the early game but the healing property of a battle hellion just makes it too strong. The battle hellion needs to have its bio stat removed and have some sort of biosteel healing upgrade at the techlab like the blue flame implemented. This way zergs has a fair chance to defend from harassment early game and can get slaughtered late game if not careful and against protoss mass zealots, battle hellions healing ability is still viable to a mech build.
From a race discrepancy point of view biosteel upgrade makes more sense than a bio stat on the battle hellion.
They require armory and you would also need a starport to get those medivacs. If you are unsure because your scouting is denied, go roaches. Pretty sure roaches will piss on them.
I don't know how a mechanical unit can also be bio..are they cyborgs?!? Also making them Bio only reinforces Bio vs Toss. Marauder Battle-hellion Medivac is what the new standard will be.
On September 21 2012 09:13 sighsigh wrote: From a zerg point of view, I don't like the battle hellion bio change. To be healed by the medivacs is too strong in the early game. Although terran should technically be very strong in the early game but the healing property of a battle hellion just makes it too strong. The battle hellion needs to have its bio stat removed and have some sort of biosteel healing upgrade at the techlab like the blue flame implemented. This way zergs has a fair chance to defend from harassment early game and can get slaughtered late game if not careful and against protoss mass zealots, battle hellions healing ability is still viable to a mech build.
From a race discrepancy point of view biosteel upgrade makes more sense than a bio stat on the battle hellion.
Well you still need an Armory and an Starport to get to this (Battle Hellions require Armory). So its not that early. When the Terran does this on one base Zerg should be pretty fine. If its off 2 Base it hits very late in my opinion.
On September 21 2012 09:13 sighsigh wrote: From a zerg point of view, I don't like the battle hellion bio change. To be healed by the medivacs is too strong in the early game. Although terran should technically be very strong in the early game but the healing property of a battle hellion just makes it too strong. The battle hellion needs to have its bio stat removed and have some sort of biosteel healing upgrade at the techlab like the blue flame implemented. This way zergs has a fair chance to defend from harassment early game and can get slaughtered late game if not careful and against protoss mass zealots, battle hellions healing ability is still viable to a mech build.
From a race discrepancy point of view biosteel upgrade makes more sense than a bio stat on the battle hellion.
I think you can't build a BH before armory, right? so zerg should have enough time to get roaches...
On September 21 2012 09:19 iTzSnypah wrote: I don't know how a mechanical unit can also be bio..are they cyborgs?!? Also making them Bio only reinforces Bio vs Toss. Marauder Battle-hellion Medivac is what the new standard will be.
On September 21 2012 08:58 razy wrote: I don't like battle hellion change. It doesn't feel terranish at all.
The whole point of the race in BW was clear distinction between different tech paths of the race making their combined usage extremely timing based and skill demanding. Terran usually commited to one tech path with a very limited support from others and compensated disadvatages of the chosen path (like low survivability of bio or immobility of mech) with proper execution, accepting their weaknesses while embracing strength: going nuts with bio aggression and multitask or eating up the map methodically and slowly picking opponent apart with their mech force basically turning match into grand chees game.
As a side note, mech in pro games wasn't boring to watch at all because it forced your opponent to react (he couldn't just sit there and watch terran take his half of thr map freely) which also made vulture counter harass extremely potent and fun to watch.
What happens now is not how terran should've solved thier problems. SC2 terran tries to be good at everything at the same time so instead of displaying variety of completely unique, extreme styles of play this whole 'race as a whole' philosophy will most likely make us look completely SC2-zerg and SC2-toss alikes (which is already partially true in WoL).
I hope Blizzard finally understands that making races look completely different from each other designwise is not just some stupid Lore contribution but the most effective and fun way to bring variety into the game, which is not the case with WoL where we have 2 blob-focused races and terran.
I sincerely wish you good luck Blizzard and suggest you watch some BW VoDs from 9-10 and 10-11 seasons.
Terran is all about combining tech-paths. That makes it much more interesting, and diverse. This isn't BW.
No it's not. Having every game boil down to the same mix of units is not interesting OR diverse. The completely different way mech and bio play in BW creates much more interesting and diverse games than having every game be some variant of biomech, not to mention the fact that you can play biomech in BW as well.
OT: Blizzard seems to hate tanks, which makes me sad. They're the most interesting unit Terran has by far. It's like they keep trying to push us away from playing a BW-esque mech style, which is what every Terran and their mom has been asking for since WoL beta. Hopefully the widow mines compensate for this, but I'm doubting it.
On September 21 2012 08:58 razy wrote: I don't like battle hellion change. It doesn't feel terranish at all.
The whole point of the race in BW was clear distinction between different tech paths of the race making their combined usage extremely timing based and skill demanding. Terran usually commited to one tech path with a very limited support from others and compensated disadvatages of the chosen path (like low survivability of bio or immobility of mech) with proper execution, accepting their weaknesses while embracing strength: going nuts with bio aggression and multitask or eating up the map methodically and slowly picking opponent apart with their mech force basically turning match into grand chees game.
As a side note, mech in pro games wasn't boring to watch at all because it forced your opponent to react (he couldn't just sit there and watch terran take his half of thr map freely) which also made vulture counter harass extremely potent and fun to watch.
What happens now is not how terran should've solved thier problems. SC2 terran tries to be good at everything at the same time so instead of displaying variety of completely unique, extreme styles of play this whole 'race as a whole' philosophy will most likely make us look completely SC2-zerg and SC2-toss alikes (which is already partially true in WoL).
I hope Blizzard finally understands that making races look completely different from each other designwise is not just some stupid Lore contribution but the most effective and fun way to bring variety into the game, which is not the case with WoL where we have 2 blob-focused races and terran.
I sincerely wish you good luck Blizzard and suggest you watch some BW VoDs from 9-10 and 10-11 seasons.
Terran is all about combining tech-paths. That makes it much more interesting, and diverse. This isn't BW.
No it's not. Having every game boil down to the same mix of units is not interesting OR diverse. The completely different way mech and bio play in BW creates much more interesting and diverse games than having every game be some variant of biomech, not to mention the fact that you can play biomech in BW as well.
OT: Blizzard seems to hate tanks, which makes me sad. They're the most interesting unit Terran has by far. It's like they keep trying to push us away from playing a BW-esque mech style, which is what every Terran and their mom has been asking for since WoL beta. Hopefully the widow mines compensate for this, but I'm doubting it.
Man, i started answering him but accidentally hit the 'back' button and eveything got erased so thanks for doing that for me
It's sad that my first post wasn't explicit enough to make him realise that.
I'd also like to mention that "This is not BW" is a very poor excuse ehich doesn't explain why this game can't learn from BWs experience so it can develop beyond it instead of trying to come up with it's own bicycle.
Sadly, it seems that Blizzard design team didn't spend much time analyzing what really made BW such a great game.
On September 21 2012 08:58 razy wrote: I don't like battle hellion change. It doesn't feel terranish at all.
The whole point of the race in BW was clear distinction between different tech paths of the race making their combined usage extremely timing based and skill demanding. Terran usually commited to one tech path with a very limited support from others and compensated disadvatages of the chosen path (like low survivability of bio or immobility of mech) with proper execution, accepting their weaknesses while embracing strength: going nuts with bio aggression and multitask or eating up the map methodically and slowly picking opponent apart with their mech force basically turning match into grand chees game.
As a side note, mech in pro games wasn't boring to watch at all because it forced your opponent to react (he couldn't just sit there and watch terran take his half of thr map freely) which also made vulture counter harass extremely potent and fun to watch.
What happens now is not how terran should've solved thier problems. SC2 terran tries to be good at everything at the same time so instead of displaying variety of completely unique, extreme styles of play this whole 'race as a whole' philosophy will most likely make us look completely SC2-zerg and SC2-toss alikes (which is already partially true in WoL).
I hope Blizzard finally understands that making races look completely different from each other designwise is not just some stupid Lore contribution but the most effective and fun way to bring variety into the game, which is not the case with WoL where we have 2 blob-focused races and terran.
I sincerely wish you good luck Blizzard and suggest you watch some BW VoDs from 9-10 and 10-11 seasons.
Terran is all about combining tech-paths. That makes it much more interesting, and diverse. This isn't BW.
No it's not. Having every game boil down to the same mix of units is not interesting OR diverse. The completely different way mech and bio play in BW creates much more interesting and diverse games than having every game be some variant of biomech, not to mention the fact that you can play biomech in BW as well.
OT: Blizzard seems to hate tanks, which makes me sad. They're the most interesting unit Terran has by far. It's like they keep trying to push us away from playing a BW-esque mech style, which is what every Terran and their mom has been asking for since WoL beta. Hopefully the widow mines compensate for this, but I'm doubting it.
Terran has the most diverse compositions across the matchups, I don't know what you're talking about. Terran is definitely not a race that boils down to the same units. Mech and bio are completely different compositions in sc2 as well, so I don't see your point.
Actually no, in the different match ups, protoss is more diverse. IE
TvP is Marine, Marauder, Medivac, Ghost, Viking.---- Harass Bansee, drops hellions (only early game) PvT is Chargelulz, Sentries, Archons, Colossi, Stalkers, Templars, observers --- Harass (drop zealots, drop HT, DT's, )
Really really really like the hellion change. Not only this might make bio more interesting, it also makes mech alot less deathball since you must sacrifice some supply for some medics which contribute to your mobility and drop ability.
im a little scared of a widow mine crushing my mineral line now But for anyone who really worries its just like a baneling drop, i deal with those and now ill just deal with these
On September 21 2012 08:58 razy wrote: I don't like battle hellion change. It doesn't feel terranish at all.
The whole point of the race in BW was clear distinction between different tech paths of the race making their combined usage extremely timing based and skill demanding. Terran usually commited to one tech path with a very limited support from others and compensated disadvatages of the chosen path (like low survivability of bio or immobility of mech) with proper execution, accepting their weaknesses while embracing strength: going nuts with bio aggression and multitask or eating up the map methodically and slowly picking opponent apart with their mech force basically turning match into grand chees game.
As a side note, mech in pro games wasn't boring to watch at all because it forced your opponent to react (he couldn't just sit there and watch terran take his half of thr map freely) which also made vulture counter harass extremely potent and fun to watch.
What happens now is not how terran should've solved thier problems. SC2 terran tries to be good at everything at the same time so instead of displaying variety of completely unique, extreme styles of play this whole 'race as a whole' philosophy will most likely make us look completely SC2-zerg and SC2-toss alikes (which is already partially true in WoL).
I hope Blizzard finally understands that making races look completely different from each other designwise is not just some stupid Lore contribution but the most effective and fun way to bring variety into the game, which is not the case with WoL where we have 2 blob-focused races and terran.
I sincerely wish you good luck Blizzard and suggest you watch some BW VoDs from 9-10 and 10-11 seasons.
Terran is all about combining tech-paths. That makes it much more interesting, and diverse. This isn't BW.
No it's not. Having every game boil down to the same mix of units is not interesting OR diverse. The completely different way mech and bio play in BW creates much more interesting and diverse games than having every game be some variant of biomech, not to mention the fact that you can play biomech in BW as well.
OT: Blizzard seems to hate tanks, which makes me sad. They're the most interesting unit Terran has by far. It's like they keep trying to push us away from playing a BW-esque mech style, which is what every Terran and their mom has been asking for since WoL beta. Hopefully the widow mines compensate for this, but I'm doubting it.
Terran has the most diverse compositions across the matchups, I don't know what you're talking about. Terran is definitely not a race that boils down to the same units. Mech and bio are completely different compositions in sc2 as well, so I don't see your point.
Having diverse compositions is what every race should get. WOL ended up with Terran having the most diverse compositions but it's not supposed to be a Terran only thing. See how people aren't happy that Zerg uses the same composition against both Terran and Protoss now? See how people are even unhappy with only being able to use MMMvG composition TvP now? Having diverse composition isn't meant to be a Terran only feature, but a game feature.
Now, how Terran is meant to have diverse compositions branches stylistic plays of Mech or Bio or in rare cases, Air. This is because of how upgrades splits up the Terran units into these different types. Compare it to say Protoss, where you actually get upgrades affecting all ground, air or shield. You can see how the races are expected to obtain diverse compositions through different means, which is to be in a way that synergizes with their upgrades.
On September 21 2012 08:58 razy wrote: I don't like battle hellion change. It doesn't feel terranish at all.
The whole point of the race in BW was clear distinction between different tech paths of the race making their combined usage extremely timing based and skill demanding. Terran usually commited to one tech path with a very limited support from others and compensated disadvatages of the chosen path (like low survivability of bio or immobility of mech) with proper execution, accepting their weaknesses while embracing strength: going nuts with bio aggression and multitask or eating up the map methodically and slowly picking opponent apart with their mech force basically turning match into grand chees game.
As a side note, mech in pro games wasn't boring to watch at all because it forced your opponent to react (he couldn't just sit there and watch terran take his half of thr map freely) which also made vulture counter harass extremely potent and fun to watch.
What happens now is not how terran should've solved thier problems. SC2 terran tries to be good at everything at the same time so instead of displaying variety of completely unique, extreme styles of play this whole 'race as a whole' philosophy will most likely make us look completely SC2-zerg and SC2-toss alikes (which is already partially true in WoL).
I hope Blizzard finally understands that making races look completely different from each other designwise is not just some stupid Lore contribution but the most effective and fun way to bring variety into the game, which is not the case with WoL where we have 2 blob-focused races and terran.
I sincerely wish you good luck Blizzard and suggest you watch some BW VoDs from 9-10 and 10-11 seasons.
Terran is all about combining tech-paths. That makes it much more interesting, and diverse. This isn't BW.
No it's not. Having every game boil down to the same mix of units is not interesting OR diverse. The completely different way mech and bio play in BW creates much more interesting and diverse games than having every game be some variant of biomech, not to mention the fact that you can play biomech in BW as well.
OT: Blizzard seems to hate tanks, which makes me sad. They're the most interesting unit Terran has by far. It's like they keep trying to push us away from playing a BW-esque mech style, which is what every Terran and their mom has been asking for since WoL beta. Hopefully the widow mines compensate for this, but I'm doubting it.
Terran has the most diverse compositions across the matchups, I don't know what you're talking about. Terran is definitely not a race that boils down to the same units. Mech and bio are completely different compositions in sc2 as well, so I don't see your point.
Actually no, in the different match ups, protoss is more diverse. IE
TvP is Marine, Marauder, Medivac, Ghost, Viking.---- Harass Bansee, drops hellions (only early game) PvT is Chargelulz, Sentries, Archons, Colossi, Stalkers, Templars, observers --- Harass (drop zealots, drop HT, DT's, )
protoss has more units because it's units are very one-dimensional, so it need a lot of different units to maken a solid army. but the protoss playstyle is always the same, terran does have more diversity in playstyles...
wtf? battle hellions bio now? whats going on... is mass scv repair in front of hellions that big of a deal? or do they just want it to be a viable thing to include with your bio army so TvP can be MMM+BH? This would make marine+tank+medivac even more powerful if they include BHs that can be healed...
I love this. And yeah if a marauder (guy in full mech suit) can be bio so can a BH.
Do the battle hellions loose their mechanical flag when they gain bio? Eg1. Can I repair them with SCVs? How beefy would a BH being healed and having 2-3 scvs repairing it be. haha. Eg2. Would a 1a warhound (When reintroduced if not changed much) use its normal attacks at the BH and fire the haywire over their heads to the warhounds/tank/thors behind them? If so they just got even more auto skillz lol.
I think that blizz is just trying to stimulate certain playstyles for testing with this patch. I guess they want to see something along the lines of MMM + battle hellions..
On September 21 2012 08:58 razy wrote: I don't like battle hellion change. It doesn't feel terranish at all.
The whole point of the race in BW was clear distinction between different tech paths of the race making their combined usage extremely timing based and skill demanding. Terran usually commited to one tech path with a very limited support from others and compensated disadvatages of the chosen path (like low survivability of bio or immobility of mech) with proper execution, accepting their weaknesses while embracing strength: going nuts with bio aggression and multitask or eating up the map methodically and slowly picking opponent apart with their mech force basically turning match into grand chees game.
As a side note, mech in pro games wasn't boring to watch at all because it forced your opponent to react (he couldn't just sit there and watch terran take his half of thr map freely) which also made vulture counter harass extremely potent and fun to watch.
What happens now is not how terran should've solved thier problems. SC2 terran tries to be good at everything at the same time so instead of displaying variety of completely unique, extreme styles of play this whole 'race as a whole' philosophy will most likely make us look completely SC2-zerg and SC2-toss alikes (which is already partially true in WoL).
I hope Blizzard finally understands that making races look completely different from each other designwise is not just some stupid Lore contribution but the most effective and fun way to bring variety into the game, which is not the case with WoL where we have 2 blob-focused races and terran.
I sincerely wish you good luck Blizzard and suggest you watch some BW VoDs from 9-10 and 10-11 seasons.
Terran is all about combining tech-paths. That makes it much more interesting, and diverse. This isn't BW.
No it's not. Having every game boil down to the same mix of units is not interesting OR diverse. The completely different way mech and bio play in BW creates much more interesting and diverse games than having every game be some variant of biomech, not to mention the fact that you can play biomech in BW as well.
OT: Blizzard seems to hate tanks, which makes me sad. They're the most interesting unit Terran has by far. It's like they keep trying to push us away from playing a BW-esque mech style, which is what every Terran and their mom has been asking for since WoL beta. Hopefully the widow mines compensate for this, but I'm doubting it.
Terran has the most diverse compositions across the matchups, I don't know what you're talking about. Terran is definitely not a race that boils down to the same units. Mech and bio are completely different compositions in sc2 as well, so I don't see your point.
Actually no, in the different match ups, protoss is more diverse. IE
TvP is Marine, Marauder, Medivac, Ghost, Viking.---- Harass Bansee, drops hellions (only early game) PvT is Chargelulz, Sentries, Archons, Colossi, Stalkers, Templars, observers --- Harass (drop zealots, drop HT, DT's, )
protoss has more units because it's units are very one-dimensional, so it need a lot of different units to maken a solid army. but the protoss playstyle is always the same, terran does have more diversity in playstyles...
What diversity on playstyle do they have on TvP ? Protoss can either go colossi or HT as their first splash damage choice on mid-game, with added mindgames. Where is the choice for terran ?
And don't tell me early pressure builds, because protoss can do that too.
The more i think about it, the more I like the bio-hellions. Was really strange to think of a unit changing from mech to bio at first, but if you think about it marauders are as much machine as the battle hellion is and they can be healed by the medivac. Widow mine + battle hellion drops sound pretty fucking cool.
Does anyone know... Does the widow mine ALWAYS automatically attack the first thing in range like spider mines did or can you tell it to "hold fire" like ghosts or borrowed banelings or the old lurker trick? Then right click it on a target of your choice when its in range? If you can micro them like this, I'll be very excited! I think that would really help the unit fill the anti-mutalisk role that HotS mech would need.
Hmm these changes seem pretty good since battle hellions dont insta-die to immortals and stalkers anymore D: also buffed widow mine means they will 1-shot workers and such
On September 21 2012 10:08 imJealous wrote: The more i think about it, the more I like the bio-hellions. Was really strange to think of a unit changing from mech to bio at first, but if you think about it marauders are as much machine as the battle hellion is and they can be healed by the medivac. Widow mine + battle hellion drops sound pretty fucking cool.
Does anyone know... Does the widow mine ALWAYS automatically attack the first thing in range like spider mines did or can you tell it to "hold fire" like ghosts or borrowed banelings or the old lurker trick? Then right click it on a target of your choice when its in range? If you can micro them like this, I'll be very excited! I think that would really help the unit fill the anti-mutalisk role that HotS mech would need.
You can hold position them, saw MorroW do it on day[9]'s ep about his mech vs protoss
On September 21 2012 10:17 Ozell wrote: battle helions into a bunker.... wtf. That means, I could do a runby with 100 zerglings and still don't kill the bunker -_-
I wonder how many Swarm Hosts it'd take to kill one of those...
I'm going to assume BH still recieve upgrades from armory since they are still produced at the factory and battle mode vikings are still supported by air upgrades. This means MMM+BH will be more dependant on multiple upgrades of different tech paths, which is a good balancing hook. Marine+BH+Medivac with Bio Weapon upgrades and mech armor upgrades would be an interesting low gas opener.
On September 21 2012 10:17 Ozell wrote: battle helions into a bunker.... wtf. That means, I could do a runby with 100 zerglings and still don't kill the bunker -_-
I wonder how many Swarm Hosts it'd take to kill one of those...
With good positioning maybe not many. BH have the same range as locusts, so 2 swarm hosts with the 4 locusts well spread might take very little splash. Then again... sc2 is about 1a not micro or positioning, so i'm going with 4 swarm hosts + derp.
Yay bio units from the factory. Blizzard is just derping extremely hard right now. I'd rather have the warhound back then this idiocy of somehow a transformed hellion is now a biological unit.
On September 21 2012 10:32 Infernal_dream wrote: Yay bio units from the factory. Blizzard is just derping extremely hard right now. I'd rather have the warhound back then this idiocy of somehow a transformed hellion is now a biological unit.
The warhound was hated by almost everyone, and the bio hellion is loved by almost everyone.
Beyond premature to say, it's not hard to be more liked than the warhound imo.
So instead of fixing the Warhound (or altering its role) - Blizzard completely removes it...
and now bio Battle Hellions? Doesn't anyone else think it's terrible that Terran has to stay on bio all throughout TvP? Why such a quick decision? Meching in TvP should be at least a strong option (if not the ideal option).
Is it just me or do bio hellions seem completely counter-intuitive? You can heal them with a medivac and when it transforms back to mechanical it stays repaired... what?
Would make more sense if they just magically turn into firebats.
I don't care about balance or not. But battle hellion can be heal by medivac and then can only be repaired in hellion mode just seems too weird... Come on blizzard , is Viking bio now when it lands??
Seriously, this is like listening to a bunch of warcraft lore nerds complaining about Thrall.
All you guys should care about is when you hit the battle hellion button, your medivacs heal the hellions. Nothing else. Frankly it's an awesome solution to the main problem I was having with it. Maybe they will make hellions entirely biological.
They should let hellions be driven by firebats. Instead of transforming, a firebat gets out of the hellion and starts roasting shit. Blaster master meets SC.
Mines might not two shot mutas as they may regen one hp between mines.
Changing type between bio and mech when changing modes is stupid. Maybe make them both bio/mech, but it feels like poor playing to change from battle to mobile? mode just to repair them.
On September 21 2012 11:25 czylu wrote: The problem with the warhound: Blizzard, stop putting bio in my mech! The problem w/ the bio hellion: Blizzard, stop putting bio in my mech!
The problem w/ these proposed changes: Blizzard, stop putting bio in my mech!
I need clarification here: they take upgrades for vehicles still right?
On September 21 2012 11:12 Evangelist wrote: Seriously, this is like listening to a bunch of warcraft lore nerds complaining about Thrall.
All you guys should care about is when you hit the battle hellion button, your medivacs heal the hellions. Nothing else. Frankly it's an awesome solution to the main problem I was having with it. Maybe they will make hellions entirely biological.
I have no problem with this. Use your imagination and all these will make sense. Autobots had decided to joint force with the Terran and infuse themselves into battle hellions. Therefore when the BH transforms it becomes some sort of Bio-Mech structure and thus can be healed by mediviac.
The Bio-bot change is retarded. It's clear creative bankruptcy. "Oh, we don't know how to fix this unit.... well, let's just stick them with something that does work and call that game design." What, are they going to stim next patch to?
I think now the siege tank should be able to transform into the warhound, and be bio, obviously. Maybe while they're at it they could make some other terran units transform and become bio and before you know it the thor will transform into optimus prime, but he'll be bio of course.
it's interesting now, that you can mech becuase of widow mines, not because of the inherent strength of the tanks that are in support. TvT is actually an interesting matchup now, and you really need ravens for it
hellion change is great but I feel widow mines will be super OP now. As it was, 1 mine takes out a group of lings.. now 5-6 mines will take out an army of roaches.. pretty lame haha
Good, mines need to become something that are incredibly powerful, even overpowered.
It'll allow for interesting zoning and force people to be a lot more careful with map unit movement, depending on how they're used, which is somethnig starcraft 2 severely lacks.
A lot of people are citing the bio change as a rationale for including medivacs with mech which doesn't make any sense to me. Normal hellions are already excellent fast harass/counter-attack units. Lucifron was regularly getting over 50-70 worker kills at WCS Europe (his trick seemed to be to always send at least 6-8, never just 4, in addition to great timing, game sense, and strategy). Hellion, tank, viking seems to be a potent combo (add banshee, thor, mines, and/or raven for flavor), and it's also cool since they all transform in HoTS. It would be nice if the viking was just a slightly better raider. 7 vikings do the same dps as 8 stimmed marines while having twice the health which is about the same as having one medivac giving energy to the stimmed marines. But losing 7 vikings is 1050/575 vs 500/100 for 8 marines and a medivac. But really, aren't hellions and vikings mobile enough for mech play? I'm sure someone could develop a sick mech-doomdrop timing, but I can't see medivacs as part of standard mech play.
On September 21 2012 13:20 Firenza wrote: A lot of people are citing the bio change as a rationale for including medivacs with mech which doesn't make any sense to me. Normal hellions are already excellent fast harass/counter-attack units. Lucifron was regularly getting over 50-70 worker kills at WCS Europe (his trick seemed to be to always send at least 6-8, never just 4, in addition to great timing, game sense, and strategy). Hellion, tank, viking seems to be a potent combo (add banshee, thor, mines, and/or raven for flavor), and it's also cool since they all transform in HoTS. It would be nice if the viking was just a slightly better raider. 7 vikings do the same dps as 8 stimmed marines while having twice the health which is about the same as having one medivac giving energy to the stimmed marines. But losing 7 vikings is 1050/575 vs 500/100 for 8 marines and a medivac. But really, aren't hellions and vikings mobile enough for mech play? I'm sure someone could develop a sick mech-doomdrop timing, but I can't see medivacs as part of standard mech play.
I guess hellions will be able to deal with the zerg free units more cost efficiently now.
On September 21 2012 04:57 Qikz wrote: I realise a stealth reason why battle hellions can be healed.
Gives mech terrans more reason to get medivacs. meaning MORE DROPS! :D
Drops should be reason enough to get medivacs... This change seems kinda weird. It doesn't make sense that a mech unit turns into a bio unit but if it improves gameplay then fine.
The real question is, what is the incentive to Terrans using tanks?
On September 21 2012 11:12 Evangelist wrote: Seriously, this is like listening to a bunch of warcraft lore nerds complaining about Thrall.
All you guys should care about is when you hit the battle hellion button, your medivacs heal the hellions. Nothing else. Frankly it's an awesome solution to the main problem I was having with it. Maybe they will make hellions entirely biological.
You really don't think lore is important in scifi? o_O It's one of the main things...
On September 21 2012 13:17 Plexa wrote: Woah good changes. Widow mine drops are going to be scary now.
Oh I didn't even realize it but indeed, that's going to be something people will need to look out for now.
On September 21 2012 04:57 Qikz wrote: I realise a stealth reason why battle hellions can be healed.
Gives mech terrans more reason to get medivacs. meaning MORE DROPS! :D
Drops should be reason enough to get medivacs... This change seems kinda weird. It doesn't make sense that a mech unit turns into a bio unit but if it improves gameplay then fine.
The real question is, what is the incentive to Terrans using tanks?
Maybe they want to give an option of Bio-Hellion focused on harrass but also able to brute-force engagements now. It's pretty interesting.
I want to remember you, that at tier1 at Factory you can build both Helion unit types. Only after Tech-lab upgrade, that is available when Armory is built, you can switch speedlion to battlion or vice-versa
On September 21 2012 14:03 Existor wrote: I want to remember you, that at tier1 at Factory you can build both Helion unit types. Only after Tech-lab upgrade, that is available when Armory is built, you can switch speedlion to battlion or vice-versa
Hellbats require an Armory to be built at the Factory.
On September 21 2012 14:48 ReMaiN13 wrote: If the battle hellion is bio now and not mech it can't be repaired in battle right? isn't this a nerf to marine hellion allins?
No, it has both tags in battle mode.
It is Light - Biological - Mechanical. It uses Vehicle upgrades. It can be put into bunkers.
On September 21 2012 14:48 ReMaiN13 wrote: If the battle hellion is bio now and not mech it can't be repaired in battle right? isn't this a nerf to marine hellion allins?
No, it has both tags in battle mode.
It is Light - Biological - Mechanical. It uses Vehicle upgrades. It can be put into bunkers.
[QUOTE]On September 21 2012 04:51 mythandier wrote: [QUOTE]On September 21 2012 04:49 Plansix wrote: [QUOTE]On September 21 2012 04:48 y0su wrote: So battle hellions will can now be healed... but take more damage from archons. [/QUOTE] a̶n̶d̶ ̶Q̶u̶e̶e̶n̶s̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶ ̶s̶p̶a̶w̶n̶ ̶b̶r̶o̶o̶d̶l̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶m̶.[/QUOTE]
On September 21 2012 14:48 ReMaiN13 wrote: If the battle hellion is bio now and not mech it can't be repaired in battle right? isn't this a nerf to marine hellion allins?
No, it has both tags in battle mode.
It is Light - Biological - Mechanical. It uses Vehicle upgrades. It can be put into bunkers.
It slices, it dices.... the only thing it can't do is blend.
Honestly a way more elegant solution would be to scrap the battle hellion reintroduce the firebat as a factory unit with a larger bulkier model that would justify it getting mech upgrades and differentiate it from the maruader.
My common sense is a bit irked from this change. Especially since it seems like a unelegant hotfix to make mech more viable. Gameplay wise however, this is a great change to make it easier for meching terrans to defend their tank lines.
And people should stop assuming that just because battle hellions are biological that they can fit into a MM deathball. Not only do they not share the same upgrade path, but they are extremely immobile compared to stimmed MM.
On September 21 2012 05:40 mikedebo wrote: dafuq... cars are biological? That explains why i want to hump them so often
Nono, you can only heal mechanical things if they're humanoid shaped! Like SCVs, Marauders, and now hellions...
This made my day.
On September 21 2012 15:12 Frosty4ever wrote: Really im only one who see? That BH biological buff its not making any mech play in TvP.... Its making just bio more puwerfull. Now bioball have something to tank dmg and melt zealots away.
Sadly, you are correct. Terran finally has use other than scouting for that Factory when playing bio, since they can now build bio units from it! And to counter improved bio, Protoss receives... a 15 range Capital ship with DPS equal to... a couple of SCVs. Sounds good... sigh.
Did Blizzard have a plan for HOTS that they are following to improve it, or are they just winging it? Because it seems like the latter.
Really im only one who see? That BH biological buff its not making any mech play in TvP.... Its making just bio more puwerfull. Now bioball have something to tank dmg and melt zealots away.
On September 21 2012 15:02 ArvickHero wrote: how in the hell does BH being biological even make the smallest amount of sense??
Its a guy inside a mechanical suit, just like marauders, marines, reapers, and scv's
There's a man/woman inside every single one of the other units too. Just because you're now oriented vertically doesn't mean suddenly everybody's going to attack at the meaty part and the vehicle is going to stay pristine. Then as soon as the driver dies, the vehicle goes boom.
I try to avoid negative comments when I can, but the battle hellion as biological is just dumb as shit, ESPECIALLY when combined with mechanical flag. I have faith that the developers are not totally smoking crack, and this change will be rolled back. If not, this is the first time I will seriously consider not buying HotS. I can't think of a single reason that this change makes sense. Terrans are not going to build a mech composition vs. Protoss with this change -- they are going to just add Battle Hellions to the same builds they used before. This doesn't add any positional play or fun dynamic to Terran play. It also has the potential to totally screw Zerg with a whole slew of 1-1-1 all-ins utilizing SCVs and Medivacs to double up on healing.
Come on, Blizzard. You want to add Firebats to the game? Just add them. Stim alone makes them more interesting than this. Add Vultures too while you're at it.
On September 21 2012 15:10 Discarder wrote: The hellion change will revolutionize TvZ. Z will be mixing roaches in the mix once again! This is a cool way to shift the metagame.
Roaches are most boring units to watch so this really isnt that good
Battle Hellion While in Battle mode, the hellion is now classified as a Biological unit.
while in battle mode, the hellion turns into a firebat
blizzard blizzard blizzard....
i guess firebats can be healed by medivacs AND repaired by SCvs at the same time. do they honestly not think/test when they try to balance shit or do they just throw something in and hope it works?
On September 21 2012 15:10 Discarder wrote: The hellion change will revolutionize TvZ. Z will be mixing roaches in the mix once again! This is a cool way to shift the metagame.
Roaches are most boring units to watch so this really isnt that good
Bio BH only makes bio more powerful in the early game. The upgrades will make a bio + BH composition worse as the game goes on (unless the Terran upgrades both engi and armory the whole time). I think Pure +3+3Engi MMM would have better damage and mitigation than MMM+BF +3+3Engi +0+0Armory.
On September 21 2012 15:39 DeCoup wrote: Bio BH only makes bio more powerful in the early game. The upgrades will make a bio + BH composition worse as the game goes on (unless the Terran upgrades both engi and armory the whole time). I think Pure +3+3Engi MMM would have better damage and mitigation than MMM+BF +3+3Engi +0+0Armory.
Also, BHs are tier 3. I've seen them in action, and MAN do they diversify play... I think Blizz made the right choice.
don't like this idea at all... not because it might not be useful but rather because it sounds so awkward... Also now Terran Mech has to rely on some Medivacs for healing support which takes more supply away that could be invested into AA aka Vikings... Just feels like they're tweaking stuff for the plain sake of being able to show the community they're testing stuff, regardless of how much sense these changes make.
On September 21 2012 16:07 Creager wrote: don't like this idea at all... not because it might not be useful but rather because it sounds so awkward... Also now Terran Mech has to rely on some Medivacs for healing support which takes more supply away that could be invested into AA aka Vikings... Just feels like they're tweaking stuff for the plain sake of being able to show the community they're testing stuff, regardless of how much sense these changes make.
Well if they "have to" (which they don't btw) make medivacs in order to keep the battle hellions alive, that also opens up more harassment possibilities. Which is good.
Biological? So do baneling do more damage to them?
They already take extra damage from banelings but will take extra from Archons. It should also means Ghosts can snipe them, a̶n̶d̶ ̶Q̶u̶e̶e̶n̶s̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶ ̶s̶p̶a̶w̶n̶ ̶b̶r̶o̶o̶d̶l̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶m̶.[/QUOTE]
Imagine BH in front of tanks healed by medivacs, all this supported by few vikings, raven and a few widow mines thrown in.. Like TvP, this actually sounds fun..
On September 21 2012 16:02 DaveVAH wrote: This is a great change (Bio Hellbats), finally mech players can use bunkers now as well.
Mines still cost too much supply.
Fix the raven now and revert the BC ground dmg nerf (it wasn't a bug guys, DK said it was intended..)
What the... really? People will never be happy. For 75/25/2 you deal 160 single target and 60 AoE damage? So, with 6 population(3 mines), you can kill about 16 population of Stalkers, and it is too much? Wow...
I really think while listening to the community overall ist a good thing, this balancing is getting out of hand and blizzard is getting closer and closer to fucking this game up completely instead of getting right back on track with it...
On September 21 2012 15:02 ArvickHero wrote: how in the hell does BH being biological even make the smallest amount of sense??
Its a guy inside a mechanical suit, just like marauders, marines, reapers, and scv's
And hellion is also a car which a guy in it. Why is it mech?
Because the Hellion goes very fast so it is a completely closed vehicle in which the pilot cannot be healed. In Battle form, the pilot is accessible like a scv.
Seriously, how come are you all suddenly looking for some logic in this game? "OMG a bio unit coming from the Factory !! Damn i wont buy this expansion! Since Activision came Blizzard is really doing shit !!" -_-
It is still a... unit coming from a... building! yay! And if this heal is good gameplaywise, it's fine. If it's not, i hope they'll remove it. But please, stop with the socalled logic, people are very narrow-minded!
(and don't take extreme examples like warped-in marines or something like that to make me say that Blizzard has the right to do anything without logic >_>.)
On September 21 2012 04:46 mythandier wrote: Another balance update has just been announced for the HotS Beta that will take place tonight. The incoming changes are below: Protoss (..) Oracle Entomb’s duration has increased to 30 seconds. The health of Entombed nodes has increased from 100 to 130. The duration of Revelation has increased from 30 to 45 seconds. (..)
such a dump spell still being buffed. blizz, please remove it. there must be a decent harras option for protoss.
On September 21 2012 04:46 mythandier wrote: Another balance update has just been announced for the HotS Beta that will take place tonight. The incoming changes are below: Protoss (..) Oracle Entomb’s duration has increased to 30 seconds. The health of Entombed nodes has increased from 100 to 130. The duration of Revelation has increased from 30 to 45 seconds. (..)
such a dump spell still being buffed. blizz, please remove it. there must be a decent harras option for protoss.
There are harass option for Protoss. Void Rays, Warp Prism, Dark Templars, Phoenixes etc. It is just that they want some unique way of harassing and delaying mining without killing workers.
On September 21 2012 16:02 DaveVAH wrote: This is a great change (Bio Hellbats), finally mech players can use bunkers now as well.
Mines still cost too much supply.
Fix the raven now and revert the BC ground dmg nerf (it wasn't a bug guys, DK said it was intended..)
What the... really? People will never be happy. For 75/25/2 you deal 160 single target and 60 AoE damage? So, with 6 population(3 mines), you can kill about 16 population of Stalkers, and it is too much? Wow...
If you don't agree on that regard go ask every single terran pro. They will tell you the same thing.
Spider mines did similar damage to ground, costed zero supply, didn't cost gas or mins, detected cloaked units and came 3 at the time for the cost of a vulture (75 min). Only difference is that widow mines hit air to help mech early game.
On September 21 2012 16:02 DaveVAH wrote: This is a great change (Bio Hellbats), finally mech players can use bunkers now as well.
Mines still cost too much supply.
Fix the raven now and revert the BC ground dmg nerf (it wasn't a bug guys, DK said it was intended..)
What the... really? People will never be happy. For 75/25/2 you deal 160 single target and 60 AoE damage? So, with 6 population(3 mines), you can kill about 16 population of Stalkers, and it is too much? Wow...
If you don't agree on that regard go ask every single terran pro. They will tell you the same thing.
Spider mines did similar damage to ground, costed zero supply, didn't cost gas or mins, detected cloaked units and came 3 at the time for the cost of a vulture (75 min). Only difference is that widow mines hit air to help mech early game.
There are plenty of other differences like Raven, Stalkers, Gold minerals, MBS etc... I mean you cant compare an SCII unit to a BW unit all alone it doesnt make sense.
On September 21 2012 16:02 DaveVAH wrote: This is a great change (Bio Hellbats), finally mech players can use bunkers now as well.
Mines still cost too much supply.
Fix the raven now and revert the BC ground dmg nerf (it wasn't a bug guys, DK said it was intended..)
What the... really? People will never be happy. For 75/25/2 you deal 160 single target and 60 AoE damage? So, with 6 population(3 mines), you can kill about 16 population of Stalkers, and it is too much? Wow...
If you don't agree on that regard go ask every single terran pro. They will tell you the same thing.
Spider mines did similar damage to ground, costed zero supply, didn't cost gas or mins, detected cloaked units and came 3 at the time for the cost of a vulture (75 min). Only difference is that widow mines hit air to help mech early game.
Why are you constantly comparing Spider Mines with Widow Mines? The SC BW and SC2 are completely different. In SC BW Marines weren't overpowered as fuck, and you didn't need just AOE to be able to deal with them, in SC BW every AoE was actually disgustingly overpowered, the whole game would've been imbalanced as hell in the SC2 AI, unit pathing and behavior, that is actually the only thing that made SC BW balanced and so great to watch, because units were stupid, literally, and you had to be really skillful to use those units properly.
That is why every AoE is nerfed to the ground, because it is so much easier to cast it, and besides that, units clump a lot more in SC2, where in SC BW they don't clump at all. Every single AoE, Siege Tank shot, Colossi compared to Reavers, Psi Storm is doing a lot less, Seeker Missiles compared to Irradiate, Fungal compared to Plague, hell, even Archons got nerfed with their splash attack.
So again, no, Widow Mines won't need to be less supply than this, people will find the way to abuse them, and I am pretty sure that they even can get nerfed, because one Mine can kill like 15 Marines pretty early in the game when you don't have the energy for much scans. Combining Mine's stats with the range of 5, their ability to attack air, and being able to turn off the auto-attack so you can actually target fire with the Mines what you want, make them really deadly units for 75/25/2.
On September 21 2012 05:22 papaz wrote: Ughh.. I don't like a bio unit from factory. I know e-sports and all is important but don't kill the feeling of the game. Keep it simple, bio from barracks and mech from factory.
Thats the point. As a non-playing viewer it is important for me. I prefer a BW-firebat, a viking with air-to-ground upgrade and let the Thor be the only Battle-Mech, you know what I mean.
On September 21 2012 16:02 DaveVAH wrote: This is a great change (Bio Hellbats), finally mech players can use bunkers now as well.
Mines still cost too much supply.
Fix the raven now and revert the BC ground dmg nerf (it wasn't a bug guys, DK said it was intended..)
What the... really? People will never be happy. For 75/25/2 you deal 160 single target and 60 AoE damage? So, with 6 population(3 mines), you can kill about 16 population of Stalkers, and it is too much? Wow...
If you don't agree on that regard go ask every single terran pro. They will tell you the same thing.
Spider mines did similar damage to ground, costed zero supply, didn't cost gas or mins, detected cloaked units and came 3 at the time for the cost of a vulture (75 min). Only difference is that widow mines hit air to help mech early game.
Why are you constantly comparing Spider Mines with Widow Mines? The SC BW and SC2 are completely different. In SC BW Marines weren't overpowered as fuck, and you didn't need just AOE to be able to deal with them, in SC BW every AoE was actually disgustingly overpowered, the whole game would've been imbalanced as hell in the SC2 AI, unit pathing and behavior, that is actually the only thing that made SC BW balanced and so great to watch, because units were stupid, literally, and you had to be really skillful to use those units properly.
That is why every AoE is nerfed to the ground, because it is so much easier to cast it, and besides that, units clump a lot more in SC2, where in SC BW they don't clump at all. Every single AoE, Siege Tank shot, Colossi compared to Reavers, Psi Storm is doing a lot less, Seeker Missiles compared to Irradiate, Fungal compared to Plague, hell, even Archons got nerfed with their splash attack.
So again, no, Widow Mines won't need to be less supply than this, people will find the way to abuse them, and I am pretty sure that they even can get nerfed, because one Mine can kill like 15 Marines pretty early in the game when you don't have the energy for much scans. Combining Mine's stats with the range of 5, their ability to attack air, and being able to turn off the auto-attack so you can actually target fire with the Mines what you want, make them really deadly units for 75/25/2.
Mines need to be Nerfed even now? I understand now you are one in a 100 who think widow mines, ravens and even thors are OP. I remember you qqing about 100 energy HSM. No point arguing with a biased poster when every terran pro can give solid feeback to blizzard. Widow mines @ 2 supply are terrible practically.
On September 21 2012 04:46 mythandier wrote: Another balance update has just been announced for the HotS Beta that will take place tonight. The incoming changes are below: Protoss (..) Oracle Entomb’s duration has increased to 30 seconds. The health of Entombed nodes has increased from 100 to 130. The duration of Revelation has increased from 30 to 45 seconds. (..)
such a dump spell still being buffed. blizz, please remove it. there must be a decent harras option for protoss.
There are harass option for Protoss. Void Rays, Warp Prism, Dark Templars, Phoenixes etc. It is just that they want some unique way of harassing and delaying mining without killing workers.
We haven't seen a Stargate in PvT for a LONG time. Such a bad tech tree.
On September 21 2012 16:02 DaveVAH wrote: This is a great change (Bio Hellbats), finally mech players can use bunkers now as well.
Mines still cost too much supply.
Fix the raven now and revert the BC ground dmg nerf (it wasn't a bug guys, DK said it was intended..)
What the... really? People will never be happy. For 75/25/2 you deal 160 single target and 60 AoE damage? So, with 6 population(3 mines), you can kill about 16 population of Stalkers, and it is too much? Wow...
If you don't agree on that regard go ask every single terran pro. They will tell you the same thing.
Spider mines did similar damage to ground, costed zero supply, didn't cost gas or mins, detected cloaked units and came 3 at the time for the cost of a vulture (75 min). Only difference is that widow mines hit air to help mech early game.
Why are you constantly comparing Spider Mines with Widow Mines? The SC BW and SC2 are completely different. In SC BW Marines weren't overpowered as fuck, and you didn't need just AOE to be able to deal with them, in SC BW every AoE was actually disgustingly overpowered, the whole game would've been imbalanced as hell in the SC2 AI, unit pathing and behavior, that is actually the only thing that made SC BW balanced and so great to watch, because units were stupid, literally, and you had to be really skillful to use those units properly.
That is why every AoE is nerfed to the ground, because it is so much easier to cast it, and besides that, units clump a lot more in SC2, where in SC BW they don't clump at all. Every single AoE, Siege Tank shot, Colossi compared to Reavers, Psi Storm is doing a lot less, Seeker Missiles compared to Irradiate, Fungal compared to Plague, hell, even Archons got nerfed with their splash attack.
So again, no, Widow Mines won't need to be less supply than this, people will find the way to abuse them, and I am pretty sure that they even can get nerfed, because one Mine can kill like 15 Marines pretty early in the game when you don't have the energy for much scans. Combining Mine's stats with the range of 5, their ability to attack air, and being able to turn off the auto-attack so you can actually target fire with the Mines what you want, make them really deadly units for 75/25/2.
Mines need to be Nerfed even now? I understand now you are one in a 100 who think widow mines, ravens and even thors are OP. I remember you qqing about 100 energy HSM. No point arguing with a biased poster when every terran pro can give solid feeback to blizzard. Widow mines @ 2 supply are terrible practically.
No, I said they maybe will be nerfed. I didn't say they have to be nerfed, time will tell. I didn't say anything about the Thors, never even commented on them, and I also said that SM might be overpowered with 100 energy because unlike Storm and Fungal, it is instant damage. I am not biased, but you obviously are when you are so blind that can't see how great Widow Mine is with the stat that it currently have, even for 2 supply, you can make like 3-4 and destroy half of opponents army with 8 supply.
On September 21 2012 04:46 mythandier wrote: Another balance update has just been announced for the HotS Beta that will take place tonight. The incoming changes are below: Protoss (..) Oracle Entomb’s duration has increased to 30 seconds. The health of Entombed nodes has increased from 100 to 130. The duration of Revelation has increased from 30 to 45 seconds. (..)
such a dump spell still being buffed. blizz, please remove it. there must be a decent harras option for protoss.
There are harass option for Protoss. Void Rays, Warp Prism, Dark Templars, Phoenixes etc. It is just that they want some unique way of harassing and delaying mining without killing workers.
i just feel like, entomped destroys the gameflow way too much. no matter which race you are playing.
what i have seen on streams so far is the following: P entomps a mineral line... victim attacks those "nodes" with all workers. when only 1 node is left, all scvs are attacking the last node. after the nodes are gone the workers are just hanging around.
there will surely come up some mechanics to improve the handling with emtombed. but what i have seen so far looks just ugly.
On September 21 2012 04:46 mythandier wrote: Another balance update has just been announced for the HotS Beta that will take place tonight. The incoming changes are below: Protoss (..) Oracle Entomb’s duration has increased to 30 seconds. The health of Entombed nodes has increased from 100 to 130. The duration of Revelation has increased from 30 to 45 seconds. (..)
such a dump spell still being buffed. blizz, please remove it. there must be a decent harras option for protoss.
There are harass option for Protoss. Void Rays, Warp Prism, Dark Templars, Phoenixes etc. It is just that they want some unique way of harassing and delaying mining without killing workers.
We haven't seen a Stargate in PvT for a LONG time. Such a bad tech tree.
It's only about the Prism really.
I've seen Phoenix play in WoL from MC just a month ago I think. Also, this isn't WoL, I think that Stargate will be almost required to be able to deal with mech.
On September 21 2012 07:00 baba1 wrote: Yeah exactly, Blizzard doesn't know what they are doing.
Just because Blizzard didn't involve you in the thought process and you are left with too little information about the reasons doesn't man that they don't know what they are doing.
On September 21 2012 18:38 Ramiz1989 wrote: I've seen Phoenix play in WoL from MC just a month ago I think. Also, this isn't WoL, I think that Stargate will be almost required to be able to deal with mech.
Hopefully, but I'm just not seeing it yet. Maybe if BH/ST becomes impossible to deal with on the ground, but I still don't know if BHs provide a good enough buffer between tanks and... Immortals *shudder*. We'll have to see how their buff pans out, I'm mostly seeing them used with tanks as they ought to be, so that's good.
I said this when Entomb was first announced and I stand by this: I will not buy Hots until Entomb is removed or changed. It is a dumb idea and not fun at all to play against. It takes less skill to use then dropping units from transports and it is so f*cking irritating to defend against.
Would be interesting if entomb would be a bit harder to pull of and more rewarding to defend against. Reflecting its current shields as a barrier onto the Minerals. So if you scratch its shields entomb would be weaker. Because right now any base with airspace near the minerals can be constantly entombed even if there are a few towers ready. And it just costs you a bit of shift clicking commands. Right now either you have perfect defense or it does its full "damage". Sticking your whole army to the minerals just to clean up faster is also pretty evil. Feels to me like I unload a medivac and kill a few drones despite the army being there full force. With the Marines and Medivac getting out alive of course.
Can the widow mine be un-burrowed and moved to a new location? Or are you permanently committed once you choose a location? This is another big difference from the spider mines
On September 21 2012 19:21 imJealous wrote: Can the widow mine be un-burrowed and moved to a new location? Or are you permanently committed once you choose a location? This is another big difference from the spider mines
Isn´t it a problem that the Battle Hellion profits from Mech upgrades in the late game? Even if it´s supposed to counter Zealot/Lings it could be a problem for a Bio player. If you go Bio, I guess you focus on E-Bay upgrades first. And if you have 0/0 Battle Hellions vs 2/2 or 3/3 Zealots or Lings it would really bad for Battle Hellions even if they counter these kind of units.
Am I right? Do you agree with me? Or is what I just said wrong?
On September 21 2012 19:28 Wayne123 wrote: Isn´t it a problem that the Battle Hellion profits from Mech upgrades in the late game? Even if it´s supposed to counter Zealot/Lings it could be a problem for a Bio player. If you go Bio, I guess you focus on E-Bay upgrades first. And if you have 0/0 Battle Hellions vs 2/2 or 3/3 Zealots or Lings it would really bad for Battle Hellions even if they counter these kind of units.
Am I right? Do you agree with me? Or is what I just said wrong?
Most players (in TvZ) end up getting at least +1 factory damage - So this may not be a big issues. However - because the BH is supposed to be a tanking unit - getting + Armor could be a bit of a challenge (also, the fact that with the exception of the Spire, the Armory is the only +/+ upgrade structure that requires gas)
On September 21 2012 19:28 Wayne123 wrote: Isn´t it a problem that the Battle Hellion profits from Mech upgrades in the late game? Even if it´s supposed to counter Zealot/Lings it could be a problem for a Bio player. If you go Bio, I guess you focus on E-Bay upgrades first. And if you have 0/0 Battle Hellions vs 2/2 or 3/3 Zealots or Lings it would really bad for Battle Hellions even if they counter these kind of units.
Am I right? Do you agree with me? Or is what I just said wrong?
If you go bio you need the tanky unit that is the BH to hold the zealots, and as such the healing from the medivacs is very welcome. Against mass archons they are gonna suck big time tho.
Also this is all a plus. BH was supposed to go with a full mech army to begin with. Change to bio is a buff for sure.
Doesn't it kind of lose that mech feeling if a batte hellion is classified as a biological unit? I'm confused at what they're trying to accomplish now... Still, early stages so let's hope for the best.
Im starting to regret preordering HOTS already. I mean seriously? so what's terrans answer to chargelot/archon WITH a reasonable resource trade? NONE, terran will have to be ahead on resources and outmacro the toss just to break even with such a battle. Looks like terran will have to stick with MMMG against toss in the late game AGAIN, and it looks like i've thrown away 40 bucks on a game I never plan on playing.
change entombed. make it a more skillful spell to use. at least make it so you have to have vision of the minerals and you have to manually click each mineral field for entombed. its by far too easy to use which is superboring.
Ok, so battle helion is officialy useless vs protoss now. Nice to see that this 1/2 new unit in terran arsenal is already nerfed. Keeps me in the idea that if you want to have a chance vs protoss, do what you used to in WOL.
On September 21 2012 21:15 LloydPGM wrote: Ok, so battle helion is officialy useless vs protoss now. Nice to see that this 1/2 new unit in terran arsenal is already nerfed. Keeps me in the idea that if you want to have a chance vs protoss, do what you used to in WOL.
I'll save 60€, good news to me.
Such a narrow-minded point of view. I am glad that you aren't buying the expansion, the least we need is more people like this, that don't understand changes at all, and that are sprouting bulls*** about races at the start of the BETA... Great news to me too.
On September 21 2012 21:15 LloydPGM wrote: Ok, so battle helion is officialy useless vs protoss now. Nice to see that this 1/2 new unit in terran arsenal is already nerfed. Keeps me in the idea that if you want to have a chance vs protoss, do what you used to in WOL.
On September 21 2012 21:15 LloydPGM wrote: Ok, so battle helion is officialy useless vs protoss now. Nice to see that this 1/2 new unit in terran arsenal is already nerfed. Keeps me in the idea that if you want to have a chance vs protoss, do what you used to in WOL.
I'll save 60€, good news to me.
Make battle hellion healable by medivacs. Battle hellions suddenly become useless. Expansion pack suddenly 60 euro's. At no point does your post make sense, sorry :p
new expansion, "new" unit, same metagame; how is that a good thing? other two years of the same game just with a different "shape", boring
just like mech, you need ghost to emp immos, toss get templars for ghosts, they just changed the units on the field but it will all come down to emp/feedback again
by changing amry comp (ie bio or mech) i would like to see a different metagame, not the same
On September 21 2012 22:26 Rider517 wrote: new expansion, "new" unit, same metagame; how is that a good thing? other two years of the same game just with a different "shape", boring
Are you ignoring the facts that terran pros streaming now are making mech work in TvP?
Seriously, Morrow alone is showing the world that mech can workm just like it did in Broodwar and you're all ignoring him.
On September 21 2012 22:26 Rider517 wrote: new expansion, "new" unit, same metagame; how is that a good thing? other two years of the same game just with a different "shape", boring
Are you ignoring the facts that terran pros streaming now are making mech work in TvP?
Seriously, Morrow alone is showing the world that mech can workm just like it did in Broodwar and you're all ignoring him.
im not saying it's not working, im saying that is just the same metagame as in wol but different units on the field, i dont like it
On September 21 2012 22:26 Rider517 wrote: new expansion, "new" unit, same metagame; how is that a good thing? other two years of the same game just with a different "shape", boring
just like mech, you need ghost to emp immos, toss get templars for ghosts, they just changed the units on the field but it will all come down to emp/feedback again
by changing amry comp (ie bio or mech) i would like to see a different metagame, not the same
So after 2 weeks of beta you are suddenly some kind of clairvoyant that knows how the metagame will look like next year?
On September 21 2012 22:26 Rider517 wrote: new expansion, "new" unit, same metagame; how is that a good thing? other two years of the same game just with a different "shape", boring
just like mech, you need ghost to emp immos, toss get templars for ghosts, they just changed the units on the field but it will all come down to emp/feedback again
by changing amry comp (ie bio or mech) i would like to see a different metagame, not the same
So after 2 weeks of beta you are suddenly some kind of clairvoyant that knows how the metagame will look like next year?
dont need to be a clairvoyant to see which direction they are going for now
i hope the beta will be long enough to completly change this changes, again
also bio-battle-hellion are a paradox, they should be used as tanks when in bio-battle-mode, but they don't get bio upg, so they are going to tank maybe 2/2 or 2/1 units with 0/0 upg just in the mid game
On September 21 2012 22:26 Rider517 wrote: new expansion, "new" unit, same metagame; how is that a good thing? other two years of the same game just with a different "shape", boring
just like mech, you need ghost to emp immos, toss get templars for ghosts, they just changed the units on the field but it will all come down to emp/feedback again
by changing amry comp (ie bio or mech) i would like to see a different metagame, not the same
So after 2 weeks of beta you are suddenly some kind of clairvoyant that knows how the metagame will look like next year?
dont need to be a clairvoyant to see which direction they are going for now
i hope the beta will be long enough to completly change this changes, again
also bio-battle-hellion are a paradox, they should be used as tanks when in bio-battle-mode, but they don't get bio upg, so they are going to tank maybe 2/2 or 2/1 units with 0/0 upg just in the mid game
... but they're not designed to tank for bio play, they're designed for mech as they have mech upgrades.
Them being healed gives them survivability against protoss AOE (which was a big problem) and also makes mech players have a reason to get dropships, meaning more drops and more agression with small armies (in dropships). As a meching Terran I love this (I mecha ll matchups in WoL).
Seriously, take some time and think about why they're trying this. It sounds like a great idea.
On September 21 2012 22:57 Aetherial wrote: *face palm*
I get the feeling that the HotS dev team is like an out of control car without a driver.
hope they dont switch to battle-mode
anyway, tvp core mechanics is the same boring ghost vs templars war again and again and again, whatever you do, bio or mech, i expected more (or maybe too much) from the dev
On September 21 2012 22:26 Rider517 wrote: new expansion, "new" unit, same metagame; how is that a good thing? other two years of the same game just with a different "shape", boring
just like mech, you need ghost to emp immos, toss get templars for ghosts, they just changed the units on the field but it will all come down to emp/feedback again
by changing amry comp (ie bio or mech) i would like to see a different metagame, not the same
So after 2 weeks of beta you are suddenly some kind of clairvoyant that knows how the metagame will look like next year?
dont need to be a clairvoyant to see which direction they are going for now
i hope the beta will be long enough to completly change this changes, again
also bio-battle-hellion are a paradox, they should be used as tanks when in bio-battle-mode, but they don't get bio upg, so they are going to tank maybe 2/2 or 2/1 units with 0/0 upg just in the mid game
... but they're not designed to tank for bio play, they're designed for mech as they have mech upgrades.
Them being healed gives them survivability against protoss AOE (which was a big problem) and also makes mech players have a reason to get dropships, meaning more drops and more agression with small armies (in dropships). As a meching Terran I love this (I mecha ll matchups in WoL).
Seriously, take some time and think about why they're trying this. It sounds like a great idea.
i also think that you could get vehicle armor instead of infantry armor and go bio/battlehellion, once your meatshield is gone, retreat with stutterstep/concussive shell, ideally over some widowmines so you can blow up the enemy if he is overeager.
still mech would be better served with more/weaker mines for zoning i feel, the widowmine is way too precious to just leave it somewhere, it must be on the ramps/chokes to your base or with your army (or in your base and burrowed according to sensortower movement to prevent drops)
On September 21 2012 11:12 Evangelist wrote: Seriously, this is like listening to a bunch of warcraft lore nerds complaining about Thrall.
All you guys should care about is when you hit the battle hellion button, your medivacs heal the hellions. Nothing else. Frankly it's an awesome solution to the main problem I was having with it. Maybe they will make hellions entirely biological.
I have no problem with this. Use your imagination and all these will make sense. Autobots had decided to joint force with the Terran and infuse themselves into battle hellions. Therefore when the BH transforms it becomes some sort of Bio-Mech structure and thus can be healed by mediviac.
Everything makes sense when you can use your 'imagination'....
I don't get Blizzard's fixation with entomb. It's as interesting to watch as someone putting workers on gas or having to chronobost something every X minutes.
A skill to be a good one, needs to be able to have a wow factor, and skill scalability. Entomb has neither. It's two clicks from one player to place it, two clicks from the other to destroy it.
Why does everyone keep talking about the hellion, balance and metagame, which they have no clue about, while there's a glaring stupidity like entomb in front of everyone's eyes?
On September 21 2012 23:12 Apolo wrote: I don't get Blizzard's fixation with entomb. It's as interesting to watch as someone putting workers on gas or having to chronobost something every X minutes.
A skill to be a good one, needs to be able to have a wow factor, and skill scalability. Entomb has neither. It's two clicks from one player to place it, two clicks from the other to destroy it.
Why does everyone keep talking about the hellion, balance and metagame, which they have no clue about, while there's a glaring stupidity like entomb in front of everyone's eyes?
Because protoss has a fallback. The oracle is also detection and support caster with working harass spell. It´s everything the Raven was supposed to be except for Seeker Missile.
It sets mech back imo because now you need to allocate more supply and starport production time towards building units that essentially become useless once your hellions are dead / forced to xform back to scout mode.
imo blizz should give medivacs upgrade to heal mech(yeh i know sounds stupid but the same as healing hellions anyway)
With biohellions we won't see mech play we will see helions +mmm = hmmm ... But if medivaces can also heal thors ands tanks than there will be good reason to play mech.
It sets mech back imo because now you need to allocate more supply and starport production time towards building units that essentially become useless once your hellions are dead / forced to xform back to scout mode.
but it isn't. Morrow isn't even using medivacs and he's still using battlehellions fine.
It's to give meching terrans who want to drop more, more reason to get medivacs.
Did they say why exactly they made it a biological unit? Just so medivacs can heal them or...? If thats the case, it seems abit overkill to me. Like helions werent good enough already.
On September 22 2012 01:55 []Phase[] wrote: Did they say why exactly they made it a biological unit? Just so medivacs can heal them or...? If thats the case, it seems abit overkill to me. Like helions werent good enough already.
Point is, they will last longer in Battles, and there is a reason for you to make Medivacs when going mech. It is beta, they are trying different things, maybe it will be overpowered, maybe it will be just fine. We can't know for sure until we try it out.
So do we know when this patch will come? I have not seen anybody mention this. Will be fun to see how it plays out, for us who can wait and see what will happen instead of jumping to conclusions.
On September 22 2012 02:01 Nausea wrote: So do we know when this patch will come? I have not seen anybody mention this. Will be fun to see how it plays out, for us who can wait and see what will happen instead of jumping to conclusions.
It's already live as of ~ 4:20 p.m. CST yesterday.
On September 22 2012 02:01 Nausea wrote: So do we know when this patch will come? I have not seen anybody mention this. Will be fun to see how it plays out, for us who can wait and see what will happen instead of jumping to conclusions.
It's already live as of ~ 4:20 p.m. CST yesterday.
On September 21 2012 05:34 obsid wrote: I feel some kind of scv+medivac+blue flame battle hellion pushes are going to be really strong. The scv healing was already quite a bit, you add medivac healing on top of scv healing together.... No other unit right now can be scv healed and medivac healed at the same time.
On September 21 2012 19:28 Wayne123 wrote: Isn´t it a problem that the Battle Hellion profits from Mech upgrades in the late game? Even if it´s supposed to counter Zealot/Lings it could be a problem for a Bio player. If you go Bio, I guess you focus on E-Bay upgrades first. And if you have 0/0 Battle Hellions vs 2/2 or 3/3 Zealots or Lings it would really bad for Battle Hellions even if they counter these kind of units.
Am I right? Do you agree with me? Or is what I just said wrong?
If you go bio you need the tanky unit that is the BH to hold the zealots, and as such the healing from the medivacs is very welcome. Against mass archons they are gonna suck big time tho.
Also this is all a plus. BH was supposed to go with a full mech army to begin with. Change to bio is a buff for sure.
I'm not so sure bio balls will use it. They rely on stutter step micro and stim. They don't want to get hit at all, minimize the zealots time on target. So if you cut 10 marines to have 5 BH, you suddenly have 5 slow units. They tank the zealots, but in the end, the bio army takes alot more damage, because they can't stim and stutter away. And they will bring the medivacs to the frontline, making them easier to kill. In the end, it wasn't so much the zealots, that beat the bio ball, but the storms/colossus.
So again: I don't think they will be part of the bioball, at least against protoss. Perhaps their splash will be good against zerglings.
While in Battle mode, the hellion is now classified as a Biological unit.
Guuhh. Blizz sure likes its infantry, doesn't it?... What's the Battle Hellion's base speed? I thought it was slower than Terran's standard 2.25 but I may be wrong.
Isn't the whole Hellion change making the game unbelievable? I mean the game is supposed to fit a genre and I don't see how bio/mech transformer can really do that.
While in Battle mode, the hellion is now classified as a Biological unit.
Guuhh. Blizz sure likes its infantry, doesn't it?... What's the Battle Hellion's base speed? I thought it was slower than Terran's standard 2.25 but I may be wrong.
It's not really infantry if it doesn't use infantry upgrades.
Err. So BH will be Bio but also a mech unit? o.o. Interesting change If they are used in Mech army, there will be no medivacs to heal them efficiently.... But If they are used in Bio army, they will be too slow for marines since it won't be able to stim and stutter step
I'm not lucky enough to have a HotS beta, so how big is the widowmine activation range?
Because now that it 1shots marines with combat shields.. maybe it could be used for counterdropping? Stick one in the back of a mineral field and if the person doing the drop doesnt micro out the marine, the whole drop gets instagibbed.
While in Battle mode, the hellion is now classified as a Biological unit.
Guuhh. Blizz sure likes its infantry, doesn't it?... What's the Battle Hellion's base speed? I thought it was slower than Terran's standard 2.25 but I may be wrong.
It's not really infantry if it doesn't use infantry upgrades.
And they move at 2.25, but they can't stim, so...
Right, they can't stim, but as they're moving around the map with unstimmed M&M, they won't lag behind, much like how 'Lings will leave Infestors and Roaches in the dust.
True about the upgrades. What I meant was it acts even more like an infantry unit now: same base speed (2.25), can be healed by Medivacs, even looks more like a human too.
but the concept of something mechanical transforming into something biological is absolutely absurd and far beyond any suspension of disbelief.
For that reason alone I don't like this change.
Frankly they should just change hellion to firebat and give firebat some sort of speed upgrade if necessary (I say if necessary because in my opinion the reaper could/should be a unit useable the way the hellion is now, just like how vulture were in SC2 (personally I've been a fan of giving reapers an explosive charge ability)
This reminds me of the armor type changes to Huntress in WC3 -> Frozen Throne. Blizzard invented a status called "Unarmored" and gave it to whatever they felt necessary for the balance. Huntress wears helms and shields (basically full body armor), and rides a giant beast. But Blizzard said they were "Unarmored." Rofl.
Tortured and nonsensical change for the sake of balance. Totally kills the "realism" of the game, but that's the only solution Blizzard could come up with - Showing once again their incompetence.
Mech-Bio transformation makes about as much sense as a siege tank doing double the damage against heavily armored units than against light, unarmored ones. Wouldn't you say? I feel like it should be the other way around, then make thors good against armored stuff. There i Fixed mech.
On September 22 2012 04:52 krell wrote: Mech-Bio transformation makes about as much sense as a siege tank doing double the damage against heavily armored units than against light, unarmored ones. Wouldn't you say? I feel like it should be the other way around, then make thors good against armored stuff. There i Fixed mech.
Siege tanks already do damage against armored units. And thors already have tons of HP and dmg output
Instead of changing helion to bio, they should have changed Medivac upgrade. Instead of +25energy upgrade, give. Caedeus reactor Adds second reactor with to repair(heal with blue beam) all mechanical units.
On September 22 2012 04:27 Xapti wrote: Maybe it's OK balance-wise (or maybe not),
but the concept of something mechanical transforming into something biological is absolutely absurd and far beyond any suspension of disbelief.
For that reason alone I don't like this change.
Frankly they should just change hellion to firebat and give firebat some sort of speed upgrade if necessary (I say if necessary because in my opinion the reaper could/should be a unit useable the way the hellion is now, just like how vulture were in SC2 (personally I've been a fan of giving reapers an explosive charge ability)
Well if you think of it as the driver being on a suit using the hellion parts as armor, weapon and shields it is no different from a marauder as its survability would relly on human health also
On September 22 2012 04:52 krell wrote: Mech-Bio transformation makes about as much sense as a siege tank doing double the damage against heavily armored units than against light, unarmored ones. Wouldn't you say? I feel like it should be the other way around, then make thors good against armored stuff. There i Fixed mech.
Siege tanks already do damage against armored units. And thors already have tons of HP and dmg output
That's what he said. Tanks do 15+ against units armored with layers and layers of titanium plates, and normal damage against loincloth wearing zealots. Sense much? In reality it would be the other way 'round. But it's all for balance so okay in my book.
On September 22 2012 04:52 krell wrote: Mech-Bio transformation makes about as much sense as a siege tank doing double the damage against heavily armored units than against light, unarmored ones. Wouldn't you say? I feel like it should be the other way around, then make thors good against armored stuff. There i Fixed mech.
Siege tanks already do damage against armored units. And thors already have tons of HP and dmg output
That's what he said. Tanks do 15+ against units armored with layers and layers of titanium plates, and normal damage against loincloth wearing zealots. Sense much? In reality it would be the other way 'round. But it's all for balance so okay in my book.
It does make sense, in reality tank shells are in fact anti-armor.
Agreed. Tank shells are designed to pierce through armor and barriers. They're not built to fight infantry. Otherwise, you could just load up any explosive. Anything that blows up will hill people. Though if tanks have a shot of a bunch of troops, of course they take it.
Everyone needs to keep in mind that this is StarCraft. We suspended our disbeliefs loooooooong before balance issues when we took an interest in this franchise, lol.
On September 22 2012 04:08 nimdil wrote: Isn't the whole Hellion change making the game unbelievable? I mean the game is supposed to fit a genre and I don't see how bio/mech transformer can really do that.
Terran already have three units that transform -- vikings, tanks (siege mode) and thors (250mm strike cannons). How is this somehow less believable? Is a transforming hellion less or more believable than a towering robot that can walk up cliffs and shoot lazer beams at its opponents or a corruptor which morphs in 45 seconds into a giant flying mantaray which defies the laws of physics by floating above the ground? I don't understand the "believable" / "realism" line of criticism about a video game. The question should be -- Will it be fun for casuals to use? Will it make pro games more interesting? Then answer to these questions seems to be yes
What I don't understand is why one unit turns from mechanical into biological while the actual buff of the unit increases. Sure, Marauders are classified as biological while Tanks are not because Tanks have such a fat amount of armor around them, the biological target inside cannot be hit (or sniped by a Ghost). That makes sense.
But why then does a low armored Hellion get a mechanical classification, while getting biological when getting more armored?
I know they do this for balance reasons, but they should turn it around - though hitting a guy in a driving full-speed hellion with a sniper rifle is a pro shot too I suppose
I don´t think that it´s possible to claim that the Battle Hellion as a Bio unit isn´t realistic. I mean, it´s a game based on fantasy and science fiction. You don´t believe that the Battle Hellion can be a Bio unit? How about Mutalisks? Flying monsters in space who kill Terran and Protoss stuff. That´s not realistic either. I guess my point is, as long as the game is good, it doesn´t matter if a unit is realistic or not. After all, we are talking about science fiction.
On September 21 2012 04:54 BookII wrote: So, It's officially a firebat?
No, no no. It's a MECH firebat, which is obviously a thousand times better. But seriously, I don't think similarities to old units are an issue. Besides, the thing is a transformer: one moment it's a tougher firebat and the next it's a fast harassing unit.
Those who are complaining about the Widow mine trading poorly for 2-supply except for against late-game units are, I think, rather missing the point.
Before 200/200, supply cost is really just another way of saying 'costs extra minerals' (apart from Zerg, where it costs larvae for the overlords too). A 2 supply unit costs 20 extra 'supply minerals'. A 1 supply unit costs 10 extra 'supply minerals'. So until you hit 200/200, whether widow mines are 1 or 2 supply really doesn't matter very much at all; it's only costing you an extra 10 minerals each.
When you look purely at the mineral/gas cost of a widow mine, it trades awesomely, especially if it hits clumped units.
On September 22 2012 07:52 Umpteen wrote: Cautiously optimistic over here.
Those who are complaining about the Widow mine trading poorly for 2-supply except for against late-game units are, I think, rather missing the point.
Before 200/200, supply cost is really just another way of saying 'costs extra minerals' (apart from Zerg, where it costs larvae for the overlords too). A 2 supply unit costs 20 extra 'supply minerals'. A 1 supply unit costs 10 extra 'supply minerals'. So until you hit 200/200, whether widow mines are 1 or 2 supply really doesn't matter very much at all; it's only costing you an extra 10 minerals each.
When you look purely at the mineral/gas cost of a widow mine, it trades awesomely, especially if it hits clumped units.
Correct, but for Terran this extra mineral cost is at the expense of attack timings, which is so much more important.
Nnnnnot buying it.
First of all, five 2-supply widow mines versus five 1-supply widow mines means your attack timing is missing one marine. Clearly doomed to fail
Secondly, you might well have had to wait for that marine to build if you wanted to bring him anyway.
On September 22 2012 04:08 nimdil wrote: Isn't the whole Hellion change making the game unbelievable? I mean the game is supposed to fit a genre and I don't see how bio/mech transformer can really do that.
Terran already have three units that transform -- vikings, tanks (siege mode) and thors (250mm strike cannons). How is this somehow less believable? Is a transforming hellion less or more believable than a towering robot that can walk up cliffs and shoot lazer beams at its opponents or a corruptor which morphs in 45 seconds into a giant flying mantaray which defies the laws of physics by floating above the ground? I don't understand the "believable" / "realism" line of criticism about a video game. The question should be -- Will it be fun for casuals to use? Will it make pro games more interesting? Then answer to these questions seems to be yes
what's unbelievable about the broodlord? It probably has pockets it fills with a gas less dense than air. The hellion change on the other hand, is absolutely retarded.
On September 22 2012 06:55 nakedsurfer wrote: 60 is too much. I said from the start that the splash damage should be increased. Only to 40 or 45 though.
60 splash is too intense. 3-5 spider mines can rape just about everything now. I don't like the battle hellion change. It makes no sense.
So do 5 storms/fungels ontop of an army. Also the widow mines can simply be avoided by Detection or by running in a low cost unit. This acctually a great way to force micro from the oppenent which in it place is good for esports :D
i think the most simple solution tbfh is just to put the Science Vessel back in. I mean shit how much more broken can the game get? Science Vessel's heals mechanical units, medis heal bio so it's a win win for the terran with just one unit so that way bio still gets the medis and mechers get a healer as well
when in "normal" mode the firebat/hellion has some funky mech stuff on it that is needed and which is damaged by attacks, thats why the medivac cant heal it. When in battlemode this funky mech stuff isnt used by the firebat/hellion but it wont stim because all firebats hate drugs. Drugz are bad mkay. There. Solved.
They should just release Broodwar with upgraded graphics at this rate. They can't do it better. Everything is just a Broodwar unit with slight differences. As time goes on they make it more like the Broodwar unit because that's what works. Figure it out already..
Battle Hellion While in Battle mode, the hellion is now classified as a Biological unit.
honestly it makes no sense, how can a mechanical unit become biological >>
nice about widow mine change tho
I dont really understand people who complain about this. everything about this game is way out of place mutas flap wings in space battlecruiser is way to small marines can kill a battlecruiser with rifles immortals cant aim up (seriously aim up and fire)
On September 22 2012 11:28 Rah wrote: They should just release Broodwar with upgraded graphics at this rate. They can't do it better. Everything is just a Broodwar unit with slight differences. As time goes on they make it more like the Broodwar unit because that's what works. Figure it out already..
Exactly! Some say that we shouldn't compare BW to SC2 because it's a different game, but a lot of the units they have introduced are based on BW units. Makes it hard not to compare when most of the original ones seem more interesting. I respect them more for their ideas that are new even if they don't pan out. And I'll surely respect them when they admit their mistakes, such as the case was with the warhound.
On September 22 2012 08:59 Blackknight232 wrote: i think the most simple solution tbfh is just to put the Science Vessel back in. I mean shit how much more broken can the game get? Science Vessel's heals mechanical units, medis heal bio so it's a win win for the terran with just one unit so that way bio still gets the medis and mechers get a healer as well
I was thinking a BW styled Science Vessel might work well in tvp using mech... Defensive Matrix on siege tanks to help against Immortals.
On September 22 2012 15:49 Hinanawi wrote: Blizzard is trying really hard to make it like BW without actually making it BW.
They're not lurkers, they're swarm hosts!
It's a battle-hellion, not a firebat!
It's a widow mine, not a spider mine!
I wish they'd swallow their pride a bit more so we wouldn't have to deal with subpar implementations of BW ideas.
Yeah, I agree. And also the Warhound...
Funny how it took Blizzard 2 years to come up with:
- Widow mine <--- like a spider mine, but can't be used to control space in the same way cos of the cost and supply requirement.
- Warhound <--- A terrible unit which everybody said was terrible before even playing the game by just reading its specs.
- Battle hellion <--- hellion was kind of a mix between the vulure and firebat. now it can also be a firebat.
Hots was also supposed to include an upgrade to the BC called redline reactor, What happened to it?
Some early beta testers discovered that ravens move at 2.5 speed and HSM costs only 100 mana. This was found to be a "bug" which was removed. The BC damage buff to ground unit was also a "bug". Also the Warhound had to be removed as it was essentially a marauder.
Seriously, if they cant be more imaginative than this , why don't they add some more designers to the team? There has got to be a lot of in-house talent over there. Hellions in bunkers and mines that hit air are just dumb ideas. Don't they want terran players to buy the expansion? Hell, I'll work for free
Right now, mech TvP is not looking all that attractive. MMM + BH looks better though. Ironically the battlehellion might synergize better with bio than with mech in TvP because it can be healed by medivacs and will be one hell of a counter to chargelots.
I am not implying that they should just copy units from BW as this would be equally unimaginative. What the terran race need is:
TvP:
This matchup definitely needs some variation. Large parts of the terran tech tree is almost never used in pro level games. Big and expensive units like BC , Thor and Raven are all very sensitive to feedback which means that investing in them is very risky. Making mech more viable should be a top priority. For this mech needs:
A way to control space that doesn't take up supply so that mech can be more attractive. Spider mines solved this in BW, but don't just copy spider mines or make a gimped version of it trying to give it a role which is not useful for mech. The shredder was a step in the right direction. Try to make that concept work instead or come up with something new.
A unit that acts as a buffer in front of tanks to deal with mass chargelots etc. The battle hellion seems to address this. However, the suggestion to make it biological will have the effect that archons are stronger versus it. What happens if the protoss just goes lighter on zealots and more heavy on archons? Also, once the colossus and HT numbers grow I think that even the battle hellions will melt as quick as normal hellions does today. The battle hellion might be very good, but does it fill this role properly?
A unit that gives factory tech better anti air vs single targets and armored flying units. Alternatively , the viking could be redesigned so that a goliath type unit is not needed. Tweaking the viking so that its ground attack had longer range and a higher rate of fire but lower damage could be interesting. Then it could be used to deal with immortals while providing anti air and spotting for the mech army if necessary. This would also introduce some interesting micro and decision making. Mech attack upgrades will affect the ground attack of the viking. This strengthens the synergy between factory and starport tech and gives a logical reason as to why the BW goliath was scrapped.
TvZ: The gap between the strong terran midgame and the strong terran ultra lategame with ravens and BCs is too big. Terran needs to be able to make this transition more smoothly. When a raven spawns you have to wait 50s with the energy upgrade for the seeker missile to be ready to use. The seeker missile needs to be tweaked so that its mana cost can be reduced to 100.
TvT is fine. One of the best matchups in the game. Don't touch it or you will piss off the E-sport gods!
I want to see something creative. Not this fiddling around with numbers on the widow mine.
If they insist on keeping the mine and the battle hellion in its current forms they should be ballsy and do something like: Make Battle Hellion a separate unit made from the factory with a biological qualifier. Remove the ability to transform it to a normal hellion and give hellions the ability to lay up to 3 mines for 25 minerals each. Make the mines static once deployed but increase their splash by a lot. Mines do not hit air. Make this a 200 min 200 gas upgrade that takes 120+ s and an armory and make it so that only hellions built after the upgrade becomes mine layers. This way mines will not be abused in the early game but instead be a late game option for terrans to control space on large maps once they are on 4+ bases and mass mine spam will be harder to perform. Perhaps mines should not target workers because this would make hellion drops much stronger.
Normal hellions and battle hellions will ideally both be needed and one must be careful to not make too many of one sort. This will require good planning and game sense and further help to reduce mine overuse.
On September 22 2012 07:52 Umpteen wrote: Cautiously optimistic over here.
Those who are complaining about the Widow mine trading poorly for 2-supply except for against late-game units are, I think, rather missing the point.
Before 200/200, supply cost is really just another way of saying 'costs extra minerals' (apart from Zerg, where it costs larvae for the overlords too). A 2 supply unit costs 20 extra 'supply minerals'. A 1 supply unit costs 10 extra 'supply minerals'. So until you hit 200/200, whether widow mines are 1 or 2 supply really doesn't matter very much at all; it's only costing you an extra 10 minerals each.
When you look purely at the mineral/gas cost of a widow mine, it trades awesomely, especially if it hits clumped units.
Correct, but for Terran this extra mineral cost is at the expense of attack timings, which is so much more important.
Nnnnnot buying it.
First of all, five 2-supply widow mines versus five 1-supply widow mines means your attack timing is missing one marine. Clearly doomed to fail
Secondly, you might well have had to wait for that marine to build if you wanted to bring him anyway.
Say you want a widow mine marine timing. The point is that you have to expend those 100/200 minerals on depots maybe 30 seconds earlier than you would if the widow mine was 1 supply. This is 4 marines, which is crucial for early timings. Or it's a starport 30 seconds later, which means a medievac 30 seconds later. For timings, the actual resources extra spent is irrelevant, the relevant thing is what you need to have money for right now. And that is depots, which is not attacking units.
Ok, let's think about those exact numbers: 100 minerals and 200.
If the mines being 2 supply is costing you 100 minerals, you're making 10 mines, and you're down 2 marines. That assumes the gas and minerals line up exactly - you could be down one marine, or none at all (maybe skip an SCV?). Whatever, it certainly doesn't take 30 seconds at that point to mine up to 100 minerals.
If the mines are costing you 200 extra minerals, you're making 20 mines. That's not an 'early timing', and the extra 200 minerals are, again, not going to take 30 seconds to mine, even assuming the minerals/gas line up perfectly.
The hellion change doesnt make any sence. I guess they brought back the firebat, except it has not stim, not that it should. It always felt like in brood war firebats shoudnt have had stim, but hey I guess medics were annyoing enough when the hid the stim icon from you.
BH are 100min firebats that can gain the same speed as a vulture with an upgrade and folks bitch about bio-mechanical hybrid unit when SCVs have been biological-hybrid since SC1? By Mengsk's beard!
Quit yer belly aching and start owning those zealot/Archon 2base all-ins already!
On September 22 2012 19:22 Twine wrote: Does someone knows if the battle helion will get the biologicals upgrades(Like marines or marauders for example) when turned into ?
On September 22 2012 19:22 Twine wrote: Does someone knows if the battle helion will get the biologicals upgrades(Like marines or marauders for example) when turned into ?
On September 22 2012 19:36 IGotPlayguuu wrote: Blizzard: we're gonna make mech powerful
Give Bio unit out of factory
It's got a biological tag, it's still a mech unit.
You're talking about bio as if it counts as everything biological. Bio in Starcraft 2 has always been Marine/Medic/Marauder.
If anything that's another misconception like the use of the word "mech". Mech doesn't so much mean only mechanical units, it's more the playstyle. Same goes for bio.
On September 22 2012 19:36 IGotPlayguuu wrote: Blizzard: we're gonna make mech powerful
Give Bio unit out of factory
It's got a biological tag, it's still a mech unit.
You're talking about bio as if it counts as everything biological. Bio in Starcraft 2 has always been Marine/Medic/Marauder.
If anything that's another misconception like the use of the word "mech". Mech doesn't so much mean only mechanical units, it's more the playstyle. Same goes for bio.
This. Saying Bio/Mechanical BHellions mean it isn't mech anymore is like saying MMM isn't bio because it has Mechanical Medivacs in the unit composition.
Incredible how this thread has derailed into a whining-thread about a bloody unit-tag. Does it really matter if the hellion is considered bio when in battle-mode? Does it matter if it shares characteristics with a BW unit? Why is it so damn important for some of you that SC2 is either a BW remake or something completely different than BW? Is it so fucking difficult to accept the fact that they are using both old and new ideas? I never thought I would see so many from the TL community reduced to CoD/BC3-like haters. You whine for the sake of whining. How the hell can you advocate for realism in a damn sci-fi RTS? It's not a simulator... If your only argument against the BH is that it's not realistic that it is tagged as bio in BH-mode, then you do not have an argument at all... It does not matter what tag it is. What matters is how it works when playing, and personally I like the new hellion. It is versatile, fun, and I even like how it looks...
I am not saying Blizzard is a doing a good job with HotS so far. Quite the opposite in fact, but complaining about a unit-tag when there are so many other issues to adress is rather stupid.
On September 22 2012 20:40 DarkSeth wrote: Incredible how this thread has derailed into a whining-thread about a bloody unit-tag. Does it really matter if the hellion is considered bio when in battle-mode? Does it matter if it shares characteristics with a BW unit? Why is it so damn important for some of you that SC2 is either a BW remake or something completely different than BW? Is it so fucking difficult to accept the fact that they are using both old and new ideas? I never thought I would see so many from the TL community reduced to CoD/BC3-like haters. You whine for the sake of whining. How the hell can you advocate for realism in a damn sci-fi RTS? It's not a simulator... If your only argument against the BH is that it's not realistic that it is tagged as bio in BH-mode, then you do not have an argument at all... It does not matter what tag it is. What matters is how it works when playing, and personally I like the new hellion. It is versatile, fun, and I even like how it looks...
I am not saying Blizzard is a doing a good job with HotS so far. Quite the opposite in fact, but complaining about a unit-tag when there are so many other issues to adress is rather stupid.
People like whining about stuff, as the patch is pretty good that is what is left i guess
I just laugh because Blizzard keeps saying two things:
1. They don't want to just put in units from BW.
2. There are enough things in the game that can melt workers so they don't want to put in more.
And then they make BH even more like firebats and give Widow Mines the ability to one shot mass amounts of workers.
As a Protoss player who was hoping for a harass unit that could melt workers or a unit like one of the BW Protoss favorites (obviously the Reaver would be awesome) I'm just a bit put off by these changes.
Pretty weird that a "Vehicle" with a guy driving it, transforms into a Goliath kind of thing and then is considered Biological. Seems pretty weird and makes me wonder, if they should do the same with Vikings going into Assault mode, if this is the direction they wanna go. Battlehellions does have a lot of hp, so i don't think Medivacs will be ridiculous in conjunction with the Battlehellions and it is kind of cool, how this makes it even easier to mix Bio and Mech play, which i think is pretty cool.
On September 22 2012 22:19 Lelden wrote: As a Protoss player who was hoping for a harass unit that could melt workers
Phoenixes and HTs.
Eh, lets compare the damage 4 Phoenixes can do straight out of the stargate vs 4 Hellions straight out of the factory. Or compare the fun factor even. With Hellions a bit of miss micro on your enemy or even a bit of luck and 10+ workers are gone in less than 5 seconds. Same thing can be said of Banelings (although you would probably need more than just 4 or have ling support to get them to the mineral lines).
That's interesting to watch, a challenge to play and seeming fun. The Phoenix picks up workers one at a time, so if the enemy does nothing to defend his workers you can then . . . pick them up one at a time. If they do defend Phoenixes are hard pressed to do any more damage without taking heavy fire. This is partially due to one being immobilized for a second or two each lift and partially due to their short range. Hellions again, one good shot has the potential to kill a bunch of workers.
With HTs that is so true. If you can storm drop that is insane. I don't really consider that a 'harassing unit' because it is more late game. Maybe I'm wrong in my mind, but I view 'harassing units' as more early-to-mid game units that can deal a lot of damage to mineral lines if not defended properly. HTs don't really fit this because not only does it take forever to get HTs and storm, but then you also have to go down a second tech patch for Toss to make them be able to get to the mineral lines.
And I know you can't directly compare races. Apples and oranges and what not, but I see those fun opportunities for other races and am sadly disappointed that Toss's new fun mid game harass unit can't kill a single worker. Meanwhile Terran is given another unit that can kill multiple workers in one go.
Ok am I missing something? Let's look at the unit additions to HOTS;
Terran: 1--upgrade to hellion 2--widow mine 3---Reaper upgrade
Zerg: 1---swarm host 2---viper (great new caster, not like infestor was bad enough) 3--burrow charge ultra 4---speed hydras
Protoss 1---Mothership core (with some ridiculously good spells) 2---Oracle (i mean hi temps were a powerful caster already, but hey fuck terran right) Phase shields make it retarded how good it will be. And it can see what you are building and block minerals, and i believe cloak your army. 3---Tempest
So we are clear, terran got no new casters, our raven is still worthless, our entire tier 2.5---3 is worthless and unusable. So everyone else got these amazing new abilities (recall, blinding cloud, viper pull, phase shields, etc etc) and we still can't use ravens or even get a another caster. So we are stuck with a reaper that is only good at very early game, since there is no more building dmg it is worthless past 6 min, and therefore terran late game still screwed. Battle hellion is a good buff, but still no late game viability, it helps, but fungal, broods, colosus, storm, infested terrans, blinding cloud, vortex, ultras, roaches, stalkers, and tempest make it worthless late game. And the widow mine which is nice, but it is super situational and will not be a long term viable unit.
All and all terran is getting screwed yet again and will still be worthless in the late game and will now have to deal with a bunch of new OP spells and abilities?!?!????
Blizzard needs to fix the raven and give us some sort of usefull caster. That way toss and zerg can learn to micro away from a HSM, or god forbid something that allows us to "a-click and cast" like zerg and toss do now.
Blizzard is not listening to the community at all and just doing these drastic changes every patch, like where the hell was the alpha testing so that all of these major changes weren't needed and people could actually develop a meta game that real balance could be designed from.
On September 21 2012 06:13 BlackPanther wrote: I think its actually pretty cool. Currently there are a lot of terrans who use marauders as a tanker against zerg armies (soak up lots of banelings, take up space vs fungals, have armor vs lings) but the Battle Helion might serve as a potential replacement for it. BHs won't take additional armor damage from fungal and they have roughly the same amount of HP as marauders. In addition, their aoe attack will do substantial damage to incoming lings and banes. I think what Blizzard has done with this patch and the removal of the warhound is they've effectively done away with the idea of a pure mech of pure bio composition but instead they want players to favor a certain mix of the 2 and these new weapons give terrans new options in a bio mech army.
However Terrans can't have a usefull mix like the other races, because we upgrade bio or mech, where as aerg and toss have their ground upgrades apply to all of their units, so you know, fuck terran
On September 22 2012 07:52 Umpteen wrote: Cautiously optimistic over here.
Those who are complaining about the Widow mine trading poorly for 2-supply except for against late-game units are, I think, rather missing the point.
Before 200/200, supply cost is really just another way of saying 'costs extra minerals' (apart from Zerg, where it costs larvae for the overlords too). A 2 supply unit costs 20 extra 'supply minerals'. A 1 supply unit costs 10 extra 'supply minerals'. So until you hit 200/200, whether widow mines are 1 or 2 supply really doesn't matter very much at all; it's only costing you an extra 10 minerals each.
When you look purely at the mineral/gas cost of a widow mine, it trades awesomely, especially if it hits clumped units.
Correct, but for Terran this extra mineral cost is at the expense of attack timings, which is so much more important.
Nnnnnot buying it.
First of all, five 2-supply widow mines versus five 1-supply widow mines means your attack timing is missing one marine. Clearly doomed to fail
Secondly, you might well have had to wait for that marine to build if you wanted to bring him anyway.
Say you want a widow mine marine timing. The point is that you have to expend those 100/200 minerals on depots maybe 30 seconds earlier than you would if the widow mine was 1 supply. This is 4 marines, which is crucial for early timings. Or it's a starport 30 seconds later, which means a medievac 30 seconds later. For timings, the actual resources extra spent is irrelevant, the relevant thing is what you need to have money for right now. And that is depots, which is not attacking units.
Ok, let's think about those exact numbers: 100 minerals and 200.
If the mines being 2 supply is costing you 100 minerals, you're making 10 mines, and you're down 2 marines. That assumes the gas and minerals line up exactly - you could be down one marine, or none at all (maybe skip an SCV?). Whatever, it certainly doesn't take 30 seconds at that point to mine up to 100 minerals.
If the mines are costing you 200 extra minerals, you're making 20 mines. That's not an 'early timing', and the extra 200 minerals are, again, not going to take 30 seconds to mine, even assuming the minerals/gas line up perfectly.
I don't think you get my point about timings. You're thinking that you're burning off 100 minerals at the moment you're supply is capped. This isn't how it works.
I know that's not how it works, and that wasn't what I was thinking at all. Look:
Imagine you had a super-perfect timing attack with ten 1 supply widow mines and a bunch of marines. Zero gas and minerals on the clock, no spare supply at time X.
Now imagine the mines are nerfed to 2 supply each. Since your original build consumed every resource you could possibly mine by time X, you don't have a spare 100 minerals to spend at any point. So if you still want to move out at time X, you need to divert 100 minerals from something into building a depot sometime before you start to make the last 10 supply of marines and mines, right?
Now, the only way doing that could delay your build is if spending 100 minerals on the depot took longer than spending it on the marines. Assuming a reactored barracks or double barracks, the marines would build in 25 seconds compared to the 30 for the depot, so your build would be ready at X+5 seconds
Alternatively, you could build the depot before one of the barracks, spending the 100 minerals quicker than before (if possible) and certainly no slower, delaying your build by zero seconds.
On September 21 2012 06:13 BlackPanther wrote: I think its actually pretty cool. Currently there are a lot of terrans who use marauders as a tanker against zerg armies (soak up lots of banelings, take up space vs fungals, have armor vs lings) but the Battle Helion might serve as a potential replacement for it. BHs won't take additional armor damage from fungal and they have roughly the same amount of HP as marauders. In addition, their aoe attack will do substantial damage to incoming lings and banes. I think what Blizzard has done with this patch and the removal of the warhound is they've effectively done away with the idea of a pure mech of pure bio composition but instead they want players to favor a certain mix of the 2 and these new weapons give terrans new options in a bio mech army.
However Terrans can't have a usefull mix like the other races, because we upgrade bio or mech, where as aerg and toss have their ground upgrades apply to all of their units, so you know, fuck terran
Toss do, but zerg certainly don't.
Zerg has melee ups and ranged ups, alongside air.
Protoss has ground, shield and air and Terran has infantry, vehicle and ship upgrades.
Wait so will Battle hellions benefit from the armory or the ebay upgrades ?
Edit: nevermind just saw that it still uses the mech upgrades . Still Blizzard needs to add 1 more unit to terran and protoss to make HOTS worth something . I frankly am dissapointed with the progress . Zerg gets better to play , but T and P remain pretty much the same gameplay wise .
Blizz pls give terran a freacking t3 aoe unit. It's what we need. Why not make the thor ability an aoe spell with duration. I was thinking something like: reducing the thor max energy to 125 (still weak against feedback), make 250mm ability with mid radial damage (like 30 damage/1,5 secs in the centre) in a 2 range area with a casting range of 7 (smaller than feedback and same of neural parassite), with a 6 seconds duration while the thor is immobilized just like now, make the spell cost 100 energy. That way terran should have an aoe spell (something that terran lacks) that give them more dps and space control, making thor usable in every match up.
They should give ghosts irradiate and lower the costs and time to research of the ravens abilities.
Edit: also would like to see strike cannon change to an aoe ground attack with more range so that in tvt it would force opposing seige lines to move and reseige.
On September 23 2012 02:02 raga4ka wrote: Wait so will Battle hellions benefit from the armory or the ebay upgrades ?
Armory if it is in Hellion mode.
Engineering bay if it is in Battle Hellion mode.
No, I'm just kidding. Even though it would kinda make sense if it did , but we can't have that becuase they would then have to give Battle Hellions stim-packs too
I really like the changes they made and the bonus damage the MShip Core got, really helps to prevent quick game enders like Roach-All-Ins etc. Besides from that i'm still waiting to get Energize on my mothership. I don't get why the Mothership should forget a spell that it can use in it's underdeveloped form.
On September 21 2012 06:13 BlackPanther wrote: I think its actually pretty cool. Currently there are a lot of terrans who use marauders as a tanker against zerg armies (soak up lots of banelings, take up space vs fungals, have armor vs lings) but the Battle Helion might serve as a potential replacement for it. BHs won't take additional armor damage from fungal and they have roughly the same amount of HP as marauders. In addition, their aoe attack will do substantial damage to incoming lings and banes. I think what Blizzard has done with this patch and the removal of the warhound is they've effectively done away with the idea of a pure mech of pure bio composition but instead they want players to favor a certain mix of the 2 and these new weapons give terrans new options in a bio mech army.
However Terrans can't have a usefull mix like the other races, because we upgrade bio or mech, where as aerg and toss have their ground upgrades apply to all of their units, so you know, fuck terran
Toss do, but zerg certainly don't.
Zerg has melee ups and ranged ups, alongside air.
Protoss has ground, shield and air and Terran has infantry, vehicle and ship upgrades.
Protoss has air weapon/armor, and ground weapon/armor. Protoss are punished because their armor is split into 2 different upgrades. Zerg and Terran are punished because their ground armies are split into 2 different types.
On September 21 2012 06:13 BlackPanther wrote: I think its actually pretty cool. Currently there are a lot of terrans who use marauders as a tanker against zerg armies (soak up lots of banelings, take up space vs fungals, have armor vs lings) but the Battle Helion might serve as a potential replacement for it. BHs won't take additional armor damage from fungal and they have roughly the same amount of HP as marauders. In addition, their aoe attack will do substantial damage to incoming lings and banes. I think what Blizzard has done with this patch and the removal of the warhound is they've effectively done away with the idea of a pure mech of pure bio composition but instead they want players to favor a certain mix of the 2 and these new weapons give terrans new options in a bio mech army.
However Terrans can't have a usefull mix like the other races, because we upgrade bio or mech, where as aerg and toss have their ground upgrades apply to all of their units, so you know, fuck terran
Toss do, but zerg certainly don't.
Zerg has melee ups and ranged ups, alongside air.
Protoss has ground, shield and air and Terran has infantry, vehicle and ship upgrades.
If it makes you feel any better, protoss units and tech buildings costs more than terran and zerg's.
On September 23 2012 09:10 Damnight wrote: i´m confident in Blizzard fixing this game to release, hopefully enough people will play it, so it can be balanced !
Just like how people were confident that blizzard will fix wol and used the "bw has 10 years, sc2 has only (whatever the amount of time has passed since released when making this excuse), give it time". Sooo its 2 years later, and the meta game has evolved into an nr 20 turtle death ball =). Where the "exciting game" consist of moving your army back and fourth without nothing happening for 10 minutes.
I don't care about blizzard fixing the game, I want decent units and decent models and some fundamental changes! Changing a hellion from mechanical to biological is not exactly what people had on their minds when they were saying 'drastic changes -.- Sc2 is becoming a poor michael bay's representation of starcraft. The battle hellion model is about as awful as the war hound. Does everyone else like the model and the way it moves in the game??
On September 23 2012 09:10 Damnight wrote: i´m confident in Blizzard fixing this game to release, hopefully enough people will play it, so it can be balanced !
Just like how people were confident that blizzard will fix wol and used the "bw has 10 years, sc2 has only (whatever the amount of time has passed since released when making this excuse), give it time". Sooo its 2 years later, and the meta game has evolved into an nr 20 turtle death ball =). Where the "exciting game" consist of moving your army back and fourth without nothing happening for 10 minutes.
Very rarely do I see pro games turn out that way, and very rarely do my ladder games (considerably below pro level) turn out that way. WoL has definitely improved quite a bit since release, and especially since beta. There were a lot of balance issues early on in WoL's beta, so I'm not surprised to see them having issues with the HotS beta. It's good to see that they're making positive changes based on their own findings and on feedback from the pros.
On September 21 2012 06:13 BlackPanther wrote: I think its actually pretty cool. Currently there are a lot of terrans who use marauders as a tanker against zerg armies (soak up lots of banelings, take up space vs fungals, have armor vs lings) but the Battle Helion might serve as a potential replacement for it. BHs won't take additional armor damage from fungal and they have roughly the same amount of HP as marauders. In addition, their aoe attack will do substantial damage to incoming lings and banes. I think what Blizzard has done with this patch and the removal of the warhound is they've effectively done away with the idea of a pure mech of pure bio composition but instead they want players to favor a certain mix of the 2 and these new weapons give terrans new options in a bio mech army.
However Terrans can't have a usefull mix like the other races, because we upgrade bio or mech, where as aerg and toss have their ground upgrades apply to all of their units, so you know, fuck terran
Toss do, but zerg certainly don't.
Zerg has melee ups and ranged ups, alongside air.
Protoss has ground, shield and air and Terran has infantry, vehicle and ship upgrades.
If it makes you feel any better, protoss units and tech buildings costs more than terran and zerg's.
since I play protoss no it doesnt at all :D fleet beacon...Im looking at you
I don't see why they can't just add the firebat... In the campaign, the Firebat had like 5 armour and a tonne of HP. It was basically a tank for the front lines and it looked way cooler. As for an addition to mech, wtf happened with Goliaths?
I don't get it man. They already have the units from the campaign - just use them.
Battle Hellion/Widow Mine/Thor/Viking TvZ is absolutely unstoppable. TvT opening with the reactor rax naked factory naked starport, using widow mine, marine, medivac is also unstoppable.
On September 23 2012 11:04 Sacred Reich wrote: I don't see why they can't just add the firebat... In the campaign, the Firebat had like 5 armour and a tonne of HP. It was basically a tank for the front lines and it looked way cooler. As for an addition to mech, wtf happened with Goliaths?
I don't get it man. They already have the units from the campaign - just use them.
There's a difference between a single factory unit that can essentially serve two separate roles and two units from two different production lines that serve two different purposes. Adding the firebat would conflict with the marauder's role as the heavy bio unit and encourage bio play, which is already popular. The firebat also looks exactly like the marauder, so I'm not sure what you mean by "looks way cooler". It is literally a marauder recolor with a minor reskin to the arms.
Adding in single player units just because they already exist is a bad idea. They're not balanced, there's no polish on them, they're just plain incomplete. They basically took what didn't make the cut and said "Do we really have to throw these out? Can't we just put them somewhere in the singleplayer campaign as extra content?"
Although the BH change should help mech I feel it will have the opposite affect. One of the more difficult things for bio to deal with is late game chargelots. But with BH being sprinkled in the middle of a bio ball even without upgrades it will help.
Having them be healed by medivacs I think is just going to encourage bio play more.
Even if BHs being biological doesn't make much logical sense. I don't care at all if it is better for the game and I'm happy blizzard thinks the same. Curious to see how that will play out over the next weeks. Especially with that increased drop potential.
I really like the approach that they had in broodwar. Give all 3 races super powerful badass units and see how the game balances around them. All they needed to do is give Protoss some sort of quick harassing gateway unit and I believe the game would have sorted itself out. Maybe the Warhound would have still needed a few tweaks, but removing it is just sad. Way too worried about balance only a few weeks into the beta. Blizzard is listening too much to the community IMO
Put the nano/bio-armor upgrade for the BH in like the one guy said, make it cheap (50/50), it's experimental so only for the BH right now, and when the medivac heals it the healing beam is a different colour from that used for bio units. It seems the biggest reason for the bio change is for the healing, this makes it seem much more believable imo.
Also change the name to Hellfirebat or crocosaurus, whichever one DB likes best...
meh I liked Hellions because they keep stuff away from my tanks. Now HTs will feedback my Thors and storm the non battle mode hellions, morph into Archons and absorb my siege tank shots and melt Hellions super fast and make path for the Immortals to move in and massacre everything armored. At the end yeah, got to have Ghosts with your mech still. The change is no biggy though as it adds more skill needed to mech and makes you want to have Medivacs for drops, but it just sounds so wrong.
Would have been fine with the Widow mine being 1 supply, but double splash damage is an even huger buff wow. Now I only need a single mine to completely destroy a workerslide hehe. Oracle sounds like it will become a more annoying scout now, not as good as a Warp Prism though.
MSCore still has the perfect speed to arrive fully loaded and in time to support a timing push. But now the let the toss has his fun time is reduced.
Just change Viking ground mode to non armored then too, so they can start tanking for mech in WoL too.
On September 23 2012 10:34 SuperYo1000 wrote: so my friends was playing the beta and the battle hellion was able to go into the bunker....wonder how this is going to affect defense verse all ins
Considering it requires an armory to produce/change form . Probably not at all.
I just don't get blizzards initial idea behind the mech units from hots. First the warhound and now the changes to the helion. Why not just reimplement the firebat, maybe with some changes? It feels like they just want people to produce stuff out of the factory... I really don't like how terran works out right now.
On September 23 2012 23:59 tropical wrote: I just don't get blizzards initial idea behind the mech units from hots. First the warhound and now the changes to the helion. Why not just reimplement the firebat, maybe with some changes? It feels like they just want people to produce stuff out of the factory... I really don't like how terran works out right now.
Because then there would be no reason to go mech at all, and bio would be truly unstoppable.
On September 23 2012 23:59 tropical wrote: I just don't get blizzards initial idea behind the mech units from hots. First the warhound and now the changes to the helion. Why not just reimplement the firebat, maybe with some changes? It feels like they just want people to produce stuff out of the factory... I really don't like how terran works out right now.
Yeah that's the point. Currently there's only 3 units you can make from the factory, and two of them(Thor and Hellion) are quite limited against Protoss. Now you've also got the Widow Mines and Battle Hellions.
Not only does the BH use the same infrastructure as the rest of mech, it gains the same benefits from Armory upgrades, and it can still go mobile for scouting and harassment when needed.
On September 23 2012 23:59 tropical wrote: I just don't get blizzards initial idea behind the mech units from hots. First the warhound and now the changes to the helion. Why not just reimplement the firebat, maybe with some changes? It feels like they just want people to produce stuff out of the factory... I really don't like how terran works out right now.
Yeah that's the point. Currently there's only 3 units you can make from the factory, and two of them(Thor and Hellion) are quite limited against Protoss. Now you've also got the Widow Mines and Battle Hellions.
Not only does the BH use the same infrastructure as the rest of mech, it gains the same benefits from Armory upgrades, and it can still go mobile for scouting and harassment when needed.
The BH/Thor/etc. mech combinations are still completely useless against Archons, since Archons basically absorb everything and just eat through you as the Immortals blow up your army. Even when Warhounds were in the game, T players were still having massive trouble dealing with Charge/Archon because P would have just too much infrastructure and too many resources.
so my friends was playing the beta and the battle hellion was able to go into the bunker....wonder how this is going to affect defense verse all ins
That's actually pretty sick. So mega defensive turtle Terran, with massive siege lines, planetaries, hellions in bunkers and turrets and thors vs anti air. That's pretty cool. They have to remove the The Infernal Pre-Ignitor though, else Hellions will be just as impactful to the game as the common Marine.
I have to say that while the flavor doesn't quite fit, I really like the gameplay implications of it, which is what matters the most IMO. Hellions in bunkers ftw. GJ Blizz
On September 24 2012 11:37 pwnagraphy wrote: WTF lol I am outraged about this patch entomb got buff AND hellion is now BIO, WHAT 0_0 that's ridiculous
Yes, as ridiculous as SCVs having mechanical and biological tags as well. It's a huge buff for mech and so-so for bio builds due to the long tech path for 3/3 firebats.
On September 24 2012 11:37 pwnagraphy wrote: WTF lol I am outraged about this patch entomb got buff AND hellion is now BIO, WHAT 0_0 that's ridiculous
Yes, as ridiculous as SCVs having mechanical and biological tags as well. It's a huge buff for mech and so-so for bio builds due to the long tech path for 3/3 firebats.
It's a nerf to mech vs protoss which makes no sense. Archons now do more damage vs battle hellions. It doesn't affect bio because you don't build hellions with bio, you build mass ghosts which handle zealots already.
So, basically this bio flag nerfed mech tvp...facepalms.
Because then there would be no reason to go mech at all, and bio would be truly unstoppable.
On September 24 2012 00:44 Monkeyballs25 wrote:
Yeah that's the point. Currently there's only 3 units you can make from the factory, and two of them(Thor and Hellion) are quite limited against Protoss. Now you've also got the Widow Mines and Battle Hellions.
Not only does the BH use the same infrastructure as the rest of mech, it gains the same benefits from Armory upgrades, and it can still go mobile for scouting and harassment when needed.
Don't you think that is forcing the game into a certain dirrection? I think if they added some more interesting units like the widow mine it would be better for Starcraft. The BH or 'Firebat' is just another unit u will mix into your bio ball and occasionally split up from ur army. Making it a 'Bio' unit won't make players go mech. In the contrary. They will use their factory build time to crank out battle helions to add them to their bio composition. I just don't get it... This is just giving things new names while they are still the same.
While I find it in one way awesome (because now the "firebat" is back), in another way hilarious (because its a dual mode firebat/vulture combo lol wtf?), and in yet another way really dumb (uhh... changing armor type that makes absolutely little sense...) that the battle hellion is now being considered biological (and all the implications of that like healing), I have to say that it is nowhere near as broken as some people are thinking. In Broodwar, the firebat was tier 1.5, and the medic was teir 1.5, and the tech required for both of them to work together was the same: barracks and academy -- that's 300 minerals (and no supply depot required!). Unless I missed something, the tech required to do the relative equivalent is armory and starport which not only requires all of a supply depot, barracks and factory, but costs 200 more in GAS. I mean sure, you get the drops built in, whereas in BW you would have to tech up to the dropship, but I mean still, how late is that? Plus, no stim. So while yeah it's a bit weird, maybe it could work. I just wish they could have figured out a way to make this sort of thing be given to the reaper or something. =/
On September 23 2012 10:34 SuperYo1000 wrote: so my friends was playing the beta and the battle hellion was able to go into the bunker....wonder how this is going to affect defense verse all ins
Considering it requires an armory to produce/change form . Probably not at all.
I must have some wires crossed - I thought the ability to transform was unlocked at armoury, but that you could choose to build hellions in battle-form from the factory...?
On September 22 2012 19:30 YyapSsap wrote: Firebat introduced in BW. Hellions introduced in WoL. Hellbats introduced in HOTS? ..
Ahh the circle of life is complete.
Hellbatshees introduced in LotV. ; )
Also, people need to stop with the whole "that doesn't make sense" shit and be happy they're trying things to make the game more interesting. Half the units don't make sense and logical reasoning can be easily fantasized, such as bio/nano based hellion shielding as said previously. I think adding a goliath would be perfect as it would give terran a mobile single-target GtA which changes the dynamics of many situations while making mech more viable. A few ghosts will always be needed TvP and people should accept that by now. EMPing archons is important in making both mech and bio armies work.
On September 22 2012 19:30 YyapSsap wrote: Firebat introduced in BW. Hellions introduced in WoL. Hellbats introduced in HOTS? ..
Ahh the circle of life is complete.
Hellbatshees introduced in LotV. ; )
Also, people need to stop with the whole "that doesn't make sense" shit and be happy they're trying things to make the game more interesting. Half the units don't make sense and logical reasoning can be easily fantasized, such as bio/nano based hellion shielding as said previously. I think adding a goliath would be perfect as it would give terran a mobile single-target GtA which changes the dynamics of many situations while making mech more viable. A few ghosts will always be needed TvP and people should accept that by now. EMPing archons is important in making both mech and bio armies work.
I agree completely about the biological tag whining, people don't have a clue what they are talking and whining about. And why wouldn't you use Ghosts as mech? As others have said, Mech isn't about "mechanical" units, it is about style of play, going slow push with your army, where positioning matters the most. Ghosts are perfect for that, they are slow, and you have to position them quite well to be able to hit EMPs/not get them killed. Also, I disagree with the Goliath, I think that they can introduce something else, but not Goliath, because Goliath is basically the same thing as Viking, the only difference is that Viking has to switch between the modes. They can add new unit that will be a good anti-air option but it has to be different from Goliath in terms of how it works.
There is no sense in biological classification of battle hellion!!! it's a Machine!!!
There´s a dude inside of it. It´s not really that much more weird, than the Marauder being healed, since i figure most of the damage he would take would be to the suit. However i do find it strange, that a car transforming, changing it´s type is quite weird. But then, not really that much weirder than the hellion gaining life. I would much rather like it, if it was a sort of armour buff, as it changes modes and if they want the Warhound, they could also consider doing the same for the Siege Tank, adding +1 armor, when unsieged.
hm strange because i thought this was an expansion built on the zerg and yet all i'm seeing are changes to terran and protoss. so now terran is stronger, protoss is stronger, oh and zerg has no changes except a bug that doesn't show vipers as psionic. sorry to say but this expand is getting to be more and more stupid as time goes on. now the only thing i have to look forward to is the campaign. i really hate these changes, they're terrible. the developers need to think of some real changes instead of these stupid changes they're making. when are they going to give zerg anything good? i mean seriously lol
One thing that could strengthen terran mech is if battle hellion, now classified as biological units, could enter the bunker. It would make sense as clunky units like marauders can fit inside a bunker and that firebats in broodwar could fight from the protective walls of a bunker.
On September 24 2012 20:45 DarkHeartsDie wrote: hm strange because i thought this was an expansion built on the zerg and yet all i'm seeing are changes to terran and protoss. so now terran is stronger, protoss is stronger, oh and zerg has no changes except a bug that doesn't show vipers as psionic. sorry to say but this expand is getting to be more and more stupid as time goes on. now the only thing i have to look forward to is the campaign. i really hate these changes, they're terrible. the developers need to think of some real changes instead of these stupid changes they're making. when are they going to give zerg anything good? i mean seriously lol
Right, arbitrary statements of the stronger race with pretty much nothing to supplement such declarations.
On September 24 2012 20:45 DarkHeartsDie wrote: hm strange because i thought this was an expansion built on the zerg and yet all i'm seeing are changes to terran and protoss. so now terran is stronger, protoss is stronger, oh and zerg has no changes except a bug that doesn't show vipers as psionic. sorry to say but this expand is getting to be more and more stupid as time goes on. now the only thing i have to look forward to is the campaign. i really hate these changes, they're terrible. the developers need to think of some real changes instead of these stupid changes they're making. when are they going to give zerg anything good? i mean seriously lol
Right, arbitrary statements of the stronger race with pretty much nothing to supplement such declarations.
Pretty much. Zerg got no changes because their changes are great, and HotS Zerg feels amazing in comparison to WoL Zerg with how much they have improved.
seems like they forgot mutas and banes againts terran, the widow mine completly rapes those compositions and actually zerg has no efficent way to counter the widow mines the only way is sending ling by ling and it takes so much time to pass them like that, and im not even speaking of when he has tanks with the mines, its really stupid that those mines can target air, another thing that bothers me is that i dont have any unit that can actually clean mines without the mine getting detonated on me, the only unit is hydralisk which is really useless againts terran mech. oh and a funny thing is trying to counter it with swarms, he just waits until i have cooldown on the locus comes with like 8-10 widow mines burrow near my swarms and kaboom no more swarms, even if i split them it will be really cost efficent for him to blow widows on my swarms. actually the swarm host became pretty bad after the range nerf, i prefer some kind of dmg nerf instead, its really funny how easy is dodging the swarms in the open field the only situation i find the usefull is when you sit outside of someones base and want to force him to fight or when you are defending your base and they are good at base race situations when you just leave them at the enemy base and go back to defend with the rest.
i hope the widow mine and the swarm host will be changed and wont stay the way they are now.
On September 24 2012 22:35 vovalol wrote: seems like they forgot mutas and banes againts terran, the widow mine completly rapes those compositions and actually zerg has no efficent way to counter the widow mines the only way is sending ling by ling and it takes so much time to pass them like that, and im not even speaking of when he has tanks with the mines, its really stupid that those mines can target air, another thing that bothers me is that i dont have any unit that can actually clean mines without the mine getting detonated on me, the only unit is hydralisk which is really useless againts terran mech. oh and a funny thing is trying to counter it with swarms, he just waits until i have cooldown on the locus comes with like 8-10 widow mines burrow near my swarms and kaboom no more swarms, even if i split them it will be really cost efficent for him to blow widows on my swarms. actually the swarm host became pretty bad after the range nerf, i prefer some kind of dmg nerf instead, its really funny how easy is dodging the swarms in the open field the only situation i find the usefull is when you sit outside of someones base and want to force him to fight or when you are defending your base and they are good at base race situations when you just leave them at the enemy base and go back to defend with the rest.
i hope the widow mine and the swarm host will be changed and wont stay the way they are now.
but leaving your swarm hosts in the middle of nowhere without other units is like having a siege line in the middle of nowhere. They're just begging to get killed.
On September 24 2012 22:35 vovalol wrote: seems like they forgot mutas and banes againts terran, the widow mine completly rapes those compositions and actually zerg has no efficent way to counter the widow mines the only way is sending ling by ling and it takes so much time to pass them like that, and im not even speaking of when he has tanks with the mines, its really stupid that those mines can target air, another thing that bothers me is that i dont have any unit that can actually clean mines without the mine getting detonated on me, the only unit is hydralisk which is really useless againts terran mech. oh and a funny thing is trying to counter it with swarms, he just waits until i have cooldown on the locus comes with like 8-10 widow mines burrow near my swarms and kaboom no more swarms, even if i split them it will be really cost efficent for him to blow widows on my swarms. actually the swarm host became pretty bad after the range nerf, i prefer some kind of dmg nerf instead, its really funny how easy is dodging the swarms in the open field the only situation i find the usefull is when you sit outside of someones base and want to force him to fight or when you are defending your base and they are good at base race situations when you just leave them at the enemy base and go back to defend with the rest.
i hope the widow mine and the swarm host will be changed and wont stay the way they are now.
but leaving your swarm hosts in the middle of nowhere without other units is like having a siege line in the middle of nowhere. They're just begging to get killed.
leaving a siege line in the middle of the map without a support cant die to spider mines just burrowing near them. and they actually do some dmg before they die, but the swarm host is bad even when you have an army supporting it for example a toss can just forcefield on top of them and the locus wont do anything, and if someone attacks each time the swarm host is on cooldown i will lose the fight and its not so hard to do any decent person i play againts does it, also the locus die so fast vs colosus or tanks...
On September 24 2012 22:35 vovalol wrote: seems like they forgot mutas and banes againts terran, the widow mine completly rapes those compositions and actually zerg has no efficent way to counter the widow mines the only way is sending ling by ling and it takes so much time to pass them like that, and im not even speaking of when he has tanks with the mines, its really stupid that those mines can target air, another thing that bothers me is that i dont have any unit that can actually clean mines without the mine getting detonated on me, the only unit is hydralisk which is really useless againts terran mech. oh and a funny thing is trying to counter it with swarms, he just waits until i have cooldown on the locus comes with like 8-10 widow mines burrow near my swarms and kaboom no more swarms, even if i split them it will be really cost efficent for him to blow widows on my swarms. actually the swarm host became pretty bad after the range nerf, i prefer some kind of dmg nerf instead, its really funny how easy is dodging the swarms in the open field the only situation i find the usefull is when you sit outside of someones base and want to force him to fight or when you are defending your base and they are good at base race situations when you just leave them at the enemy base and go back to defend with the rest.
i hope the widow mine and the swarm host will be changed and wont stay the way they are now.
but leaving your swarm hosts in the middle of nowhere without other units is like having a siege line in the middle of nowhere. They're just begging to get killed.
leaving a siege line in the middle of the map without a support cant die to spider mines just burrowing near them. and they actually do some dmg before they die, but the swarm host is bad even when you have an army supporting it for example a toss can just forcefield on top of them and the locus wont do anything, and if someone attacks each time the swarm host is on cooldown i will lose the fight and its not so hard to do any decent person i play againts does it, also the locus die so fast vs colosus or tanks...
dont put all the swarm hosts on the same cooldown. Have half offset. Use them in combination with any unit with range.
Balance necessities apart, the battle hellion change makes no sense whatsoever. When the battle hellion is standing upright, it has more biological matter than when it is in vehicle mode???
On September 24 2012 22:35 vovalol wrote: seems like they forgot mutas and banes againts terran, the widow mine completly rapes those compositions and actually zerg has no efficent way to counter the widow mines the only way is sending ling by ling and it takes so much time to pass them like that, and im not even speaking of when he has tanks with the mines, its really stupid that those mines can target air, another thing that bothers me is that i dont have any unit that can actually clean mines without the mine getting detonated on me, the only unit is hydralisk which is really useless againts terran mech. oh and a funny thing is trying to counter it with swarms, he just waits until i have cooldown on the locus comes with like 8-10 widow mines burrow near my swarms and kaboom no more swarms, even if i split them it will be really cost efficent for him to blow widows on my swarms. actually the swarm host became pretty bad after the range nerf, i prefer some kind of dmg nerf instead, its really funny how easy is dodging the swarms in the open field the only situation i find the usefull is when you sit outside of someones base and want to force him to fight or when you are defending your base and they are good at base race situations when you just leave them at the enemy base and go back to defend with the rest.
i hope the widow mine and the swarm host will be changed and wont stay the way they are now.
but leaving your swarm hosts in the middle of nowhere without other units is like having a siege line in the middle of nowhere. They're just begging to get killed.
leaving a siege line in the middle of the map without a support cant die to spider mines just burrowing near them. and they actually do some dmg before they die, but the swarm host is bad even when you have an army supporting it for example a toss can just forcefield on top of them and the locus wont do anything, and if someone attacks each time the swarm host is on cooldown i will lose the fight and its not so hard to do any decent person i play againts does it, also the locus die so fast vs colosus or tanks...
dont put all the swarm hosts on the same cooldown. Have half offset. Use them in combination with any unit with range.
but i feel like the locusts do nothing when you stream them in waves, they die too fast... maybe if they buff their speed or something. and the only units with range that i have are hydras and roaches, and hydras are still pretty bad againts collosus and tanks, the only combination that could work is infestors with the swarms but infestors work well with everything...
On September 25 2012 01:16 Thrasymachus725 wrote: Next patch must be coming soon. I hate the weekends... no word from blizzard at all, it feels like such a blackout...
IKR? I'm actually pretty stoked, because there have already been so many changes and we still have months of this left to go.
On September 22 2012 19:30 YyapSsap wrote: Firebat introduced in BW. Hellions introduced in WoL. Hellbats introduced in HOTS? ..
Ahh the circle of life is complete.
Hellbatshees introduced in LotV. ; )
Also, people need to stop with the whole "that doesn't make sense" shit and be happy they're trying things to make the game more interesting. Half the units don't make sense and logical reasoning can be easily fantasized, such as bio/nano based hellion shielding as said previously. I think adding a goliath would be perfect as it would give terran a mobile single-target GtA which changes the dynamics of many situations while making mech more viable. A few ghosts will always be needed TvP and people should accept that by now. EMPing archons is important in making both mech and bio armies work.
I agree completely about the biological tag whining, people don't have a clue what they are talking and whining about. And why wouldn't you use Ghosts as mech? As others have said, Mech isn't about "mechanical" units, it is about style of play, going slow push with your army, where positioning matters the most. Ghosts are perfect for that, they are slow, and you have to position them quite well to be able to hit EMPs/not get them killed. Also, I disagree with the Goliath, I think that they can introduce something else, but not Goliath, because Goliath is basically the same thing as Viking, the only difference is that Viking has to switch between the modes. They can add new unit that will be a good anti-air option but it has to be different from Goliath in terms of how it works.
No one is "whining" -- people generally like things to make logical sens to some degree, and they are just calling it how they see it. It makes little to no sense that something that is classified as mechanical because, you know it's a vehicle, not just a suit of armor, and then transforms into what is essentially a robot with a driver (like a goliath, or warhound, or thor...) would then somehow magically bond the vehicle parts to the driver, when they don't even do that for their infantry...... yeah, it makes no sense from a lore perspective, no matter how you slice it. The only possible thing I would accept is if because the Terran engineers are idiots, they allow the body of the driver to be exposed while inside the battle hellion form, much like the utility suit from Aliens (which the SCV is already based on).
It would make much more sense for something to be able to shift it's shielding around and change from a large "light" armored unit to a small "armored" armored unit.
And mech *is* about using mechanical units -- the slow push is a result of this play style coming from mechanical units. Hence why it is called "mech" and not "slow, positional ghost push". Also, the micro of mech is not about casting spells at just the right time in the right way. Mech in generally uses very little spell casting.
On September 25 2012 03:54 Qikz wrote: No bunker defense with battle hellions anytime soon. Community manager just posted this on US Battle.net forums.
On September 25 2012 03:54 Qikz wrote: No bunker defense with battle hellions anytime soon. Community manager just posted this on US Battle.net forums.
Battle Hellions shouldn't be wandering into bunkers, and that's an issue we plan to address soon.
Bah, Battle Hellions in bunkers would have been awesome
Would have certainly been nice early game, if not a little too powerful X_X
On September 22 2012 19:30 YyapSsap wrote: Firebat introduced in BW. Hellions introduced in WoL. Hellbats introduced in HOTS? ..
Ahh the circle of life is complete.
Hellbatshees introduced in LotV. ; )
Also, people need to stop with the whole "that doesn't make sense" shit and be happy they're trying things to make the game more interesting. Half the units don't make sense and logical reasoning can be easily fantasized, such as bio/nano based hellion shielding as said previously. I think adding a goliath would be perfect as it would give terran a mobile single-target GtA which changes the dynamics of many situations while making mech more viable. A few ghosts will always be needed TvP and people should accept that by now. EMPing archons is important in making both mech and bio armies work.
I agree completely about the biological tag whining, people don't have a clue what they are talking and whining about. And why wouldn't you use Ghosts as mech? As others have said, Mech isn't about "mechanical" units, it is about style of play, going slow push with your army, where positioning matters the most. Ghosts are perfect for that, they are slow, and you have to position them quite well to be able to hit EMPs/not get them killed. Also, I disagree with the Goliath, I think that they can introduce something else, but not Goliath, because Goliath is basically the same thing as Viking, the only difference is that Viking has to switch between the modes. They can add new unit that will be a good anti-air option but it has to be different from Goliath in terms of how it works.
No one is "whining" -- people generally like things to make logical sens to some degree, and they are just calling it how they see it. It makes little to no sense that something that is classified as mechanical because, you know it's a vehicle, not just a suit of armor, and then transforms into what is essentially a robot with a driver (like a goliath, or warhound, or thor...) would then somehow magically bond the vehicle parts to the driver, when they don't even do that for their infantry...... yeah, it makes no sense from a lore perspective, no matter how you slice it. The only possible thing I would accept is if because the Terran engineers are idiots, they allow the body of the driver to be exposed while inside the battle hellion form, much like the utility suit from Aliens (which the SCV is already based on).
It would make much more sense for something to be able to shift it's shielding around and change from a large "light" armored unit to a small "armored" armored unit.
And mech *is* about using mechanical units -- the slow push is a result of this play style coming from mechanical units. Hence why it is called "mech" and not "slow, positional ghost push". Also, the micro of mech is not about casting spells at just the right time in the right way. Mech in generally uses very little spell casting.
Yes, it is ok for SCVs to be able to repair Battle Cruisers from the ground, but Zealots can't attack them? But hey, when the Hellion is basically transforming into Marauder or SCV, a guy in a big suit, it doesn't make any sense, and suddenly everybody is going apeshit about the changes.
Please... people just dislike the design of it, they don't want to play the mech with half mech and half bio unit, if they are saying how they dislike it and how it doesn't make any sense, then they have double standards because there are a f**k ton of things in SC2(or SC universe for that matter) that doesn't make any sense.
Just as Hellions getting 50% HP when transforming in their battle mode, Marines destroying Carriers and Mothership, Reapers seeing above ground, Infestors spawning Infested Marines that they gathered from the battle even though you can use them as soon as Infestor spawn from the larva, Nydus that is traveling trough the space and other stuff.
And mech you are talking about is mech from Brood War. Guess what, Bio in SC2 contains Marines, Marauders, Ghosts with Medivac support, by your analogy, that isn't bio, because hey, it is using Medivacs! In mech, Ghosts aren't majority of your population, it is not your core unit, and it is not the unit your army resolves around, you need like 10-20 population of Ghosts for support, which isn't much in the late game especially because majority of Terran players in the late game are sacrificing SCVs because they have a tons of Mules. What you are saying is that Mech playstyle isn't Mech because of the stupid tag unit has below its stats? As others have said, Mech is Style of play, that is why everyone were saying how Warhounds weren't Mech units, because they were as mobile as Bio... Some sort of Hybrid, something between the Marauder and Thor.
If you disagree with me, that is ok, respect your opinion, but that is just that, an opinion, it is not the fact, it is not by some guide on how Mech should be played in HOTS and what should be considered an Mech strategy and what is not.
On September 25 2012 03:35 HypertonicHydroponic wrote:
On September 24 2012 17:18 Ramiz1989 wrote:
On September 24 2012 16:35 Glockateer wrote:
On September 22 2012 19:30 YyapSsap wrote: Firebat introduced in BW. Hellions introduced in WoL. Hellbats introduced in HOTS? ..
Ahh the circle of life is complete.
Hellbatshees introduced in LotV. ; )
Also, people need to stop with the whole "that doesn't make sense" shit and be happy they're trying things to make the game more interesting. Half the units don't make sense and logical reasoning can be easily fantasized, such as bio/nano based hellion shielding as said previously. I think adding a goliath would be perfect as it would give terran a mobile single-target GtA which changes the dynamics of many situations while making mech more viable. A few ghosts will always be needed TvP and people should accept that by now. EMPing archons is important in making both mech and bio armies work.
I agree completely about the biological tag whining, people don't have a clue what they are talking and whining about. And why wouldn't you use Ghosts as mech? As others have said, Mech isn't about "mechanical" units, it is about style of play, going slow push with your army, where positioning matters the most. Ghosts are perfect for that, they are slow, and you have to position them quite well to be able to hit EMPs/not get them killed. Also, I disagree with the Goliath, I think that they can introduce something else, but not Goliath, because Goliath is basically the same thing as Viking, the only difference is that Viking has to switch between the modes. They can add new unit that will be a good anti-air option but it has to be different from Goliath in terms of how it works.
No one is "whining" -- people generally like things to make logical sens to some degree, and they are just calling it how they see it. It makes little to no sense that something that is classified as mechanical because, you know it's a vehicle, not just a suit of armor, and then transforms into what is essentially a robot with a driver (like a goliath, or warhound, or thor...) would then somehow magically bond the vehicle parts to the driver, when they don't even do that for their infantry...... yeah, it makes no sense from a lore perspective, no matter how you slice it. The only possible thing I would accept is if because the Terran engineers are idiots, they allow the body of the driver to be exposed while inside the battle hellion form, much like the utility suit from Aliens (which the SCV is already based on).
It would make much more sense for something to be able to shift it's shielding around and change from a large "light" armored unit to a small "armored" armored unit.
And mech *is* about using mechanical units -- the slow push is a result of this play style coming from mechanical units. Hence why it is called "mech" and not "slow, positional ghost push". Also, the micro of mech is not about casting spells at just the right time in the right way. Mech in generally uses very little spell casting.
Yes, it is ok for SCVs to be able to repair Battle Cruisers from the ground, but Zealots can't attack them? But hey, when the Hellion is basically transforming into Marauder or SCV, a guy in a big suit, it doesn't make any sense, and suddenly everybody is going apeshit about the changes.
Please... people just dislike the design of it, they don't want to play the mech with half mech and half bio unit, if they are saying how they dislike it and how it doesn't make any sense, then they have double standards because there are a f**k ton of things in SC2(or SC universe for that matter) that doesn't make any sense.
Just as Hellions getting 50% HP when transforming in their battle mode, Marines destroying Carriers and Mothership, Reapers seeing above ground, Infestors spawning Infested Marines that they gathered from the battle even though you can use them as soon as Infestor spawn from the larva, Nydus that is traveling trough the space and other stuff.
And mech you are talking about is mech from Brood War. Guess what, Bio in SC2 contains Marines, Marauders, Ghosts with Medivac support, by your analogy, that isn't bio, because hey, it is using Medivacs! In mech, Ghosts aren't majority of your population, it is not your core unit, and it is not the unit your army resolves around, you need like 10-20 population of Ghosts for support, which isn't much in the late game especially because majority of Terran players in the late game are sacrificing SCVs because they have a tons of Mules. What you are saying is that Mech playstyle isn't Mech because of the stupid tag unit has below its stats? As others have said, Mech is Style of play, that is why everyone were saying how Warhounds weren't Mech units, because they were as mobile as Bio... Some sort of Hybrid, something between the Marauder and Thor.
If you disagree with me, that is ok, respect your opinion, but that is just that, an opinion, it is not the fact, it is not by some guide on how Mech should be played in HOTS and what should be considered an Mech strategy and what is not.
Great post, but trying to reason with people blinded by nostalgia is a wasted effort.
You can claim people are blinded by nostalgia, but mech in TvP was genuinly exciting to watch. I'd say in most cases a hell of a lot more exciting than Bio TvP is now as it seems to come down to one battle which either the terran wins or the protoss AOE burst through and goes to camp the production of the terran. It's hardly ever dynamic when it reaches the late game.
I'm not saying the goliath should return, I'm just trying to get them to make the widow mine the spidermine. That's the sort of mine NEEDS and not just what people want. When people are ignoring good ideas (like the return of the proper spidermine), just because it's from BW, it actually makes me sick to the stomach. With the widow mine, the development team are saying they want something like the spidermine. So why not just add it to Hellions and add it to the game?
Some ideas from BW if they were to return to the game would make the game better as a whole. I've followed and played SC2 since the first day of the beta and I love it, but anything they could add to make it BETTER than it already is, I want! I'm not selfish, I don't want the spidermine because it's what I want, I want it as it'll genuinly improve the game! Much like the carrier micro that Tyler bought up in the previous videos he did.
I'm sure so many ideas were re used from BW because of nostalgia. The game was the dominant RTS for competitive players for a reason and had a gigantic following for a reason. SC 2 hasn't lived up to it and dismissing people telling you why it's better isn't very productive for figuring out why SC 2 is boring.
On September 25 2012 04:44 Qikz wrote: I'm not saying the goliath should return, I'm just trying to get them to make the widow mine the spidermine. That's the sort of mine NEEDS and not just what people want. When people are ignoring good ideas (like the return of the proper spidermine), just because it's from BW, it actually makes me sick to the stomach. With the widow mine, the development team are saying they want something like the spidermine. So why not just add it to Hellions and add it to the game?
Yep, let's turn a micro-intensive unit that raises the skill ceiling, into a unit that requires no micro and actually has less utility. Sounds great. Or we can just, y'know, buff the Widow mine in other ways so that it can actually guard flanks and prevent backstabs, without taking away everything that makes it great.
On September 25 2012 04:44 Qikz wrote: I'm not saying the goliath should return, I'm just trying to get them to make the widow mine the spidermine. That's the sort of mine NEEDS and not just what people want. When people are ignoring good ideas (like the return of the proper spidermine), just because it's from BW, it actually makes me sick to the stomach. With the widow mine, the development team are saying they want something like the spidermine. So why not just add it to Hellions and add it to the game?
Yep, let's turn a micro-intensive unit that raises the skill ceiling, into a unit that requires no micro and actually has less utility. Sounds great. Or we can just, y'know, buff the Widow mine in other ways so that it can actually guard flanks and prevent backstabs, without taking away everything that makes it great.
I've said this before, but I honestly don't know what they could possibly change with the widow mine that would actually make it a) exciting and b) be able to do the things you've said. The micro of spidermines was the initial positioning, it also led to mine drags from the protoss with speed zealots and it wasn't even the damage that made them good, it was the fact it slowed the enemy down.
The role of the widow mine appears to be to damage backstabs, but any attacks against mech will just go with an observer, overseer or scans meaning the widow mine will never actually be able to do any damage to the backstab unless the person is really stupid. This leads me back to my main point, if they can't do any damage against anyone with a brain, what's their use? To slow them down.
At 2 supply you can't make enough mines to actually slow them down. That's the issue that mech has right now, backstabs. Anti air we have vikings and turrets for so the goliath would be redundant. EMP can deal with Archons and Immortals if they try and spam them (and ghosts are affordable with mech, I do it in WoL and so do many masters players over on in the strategy forum). Backstabs however, are really, really hard to deal with as you can never get back in time to defend your bases.
On September 25 2012 04:44 Qikz wrote: I'm not saying the goliath should return, I'm just trying to get them to make the widow mine the spidermine. That's the sort of mine NEEDS and not just what people want. When people are ignoring good ideas (like the return of the proper spidermine), just because it's from BW, it actually makes me sick to the stomach. With the widow mine, the development team are saying they want something like the spidermine. So why not just add it to Hellions and add it to the game?
Yep, let's turn a micro-intensive unit that raises the skill ceiling, into a unit that requires no micro and actually has less utility. Sounds great. Or we can just, y'know, buff the Widow mine in other ways so that it can actually guard flanks and prevent backstabs, without taking away everything that makes it great.
This is somehow my thinking as well. People just screams "We want Spider Mines and Vultures back!", without even realizing that the game is completely different from SC BW and that those units maybe wouldn't be used at all that way, and even if they are, they wouldn't be close to being good as they were in the SC BW, or maybe they would be overpowered.
Tons of Protoss players wants Reaver back, even though I agree that Reavers are great, and much more appealing compared to the Colossi, Reavers would just add to the Death Ball, and would melt units 3 times faster, with bigger AoE. They also wouldn't have a counter as Colossi have, so it maybe end up being a lot worse than the Colossi. This is not the fact, this is me saying it might happen. I am not blindly screaming "I want Lurker!", even though it was my favorite unit in SC BW, I just don't see it working as good as it did in BW, nor I see it being as cool as it was back then.
You guys don't want for Blizzard to improve the game, half of you guys want Blizzard to make the game as you think it should be, and other half wants SC BW with SC2 graphics, and in the end both things aren't working.
On September 25 2012 04:44 Qikz wrote: I'm not saying the goliath should return, I'm just trying to get them to make the widow mine the spidermine. That's the sort of mine NEEDS and not just what people want. When people are ignoring good ideas (like the return of the proper spidermine), just because it's from BW, it actually makes me sick to the stomach. With the widow mine, the development team are saying they want something like the spidermine. So why not just add it to Hellions and add it to the game?
Yep, let's turn a micro-intensive unit that raises the skill ceiling, into a unit that requires no micro and actually has less utility. Sounds great. Or we can just, y'know, buff the Widow mine in other ways so that it can actually guard flanks and prevent backstabs, without taking away everything that makes it great.
At 2 supply you can't make enough mines to actually slow them down. That's the issue that mech has right now, backstabs. Anti air we have vikings and turrets for so the goliath would be redundant. EMP can deal with Archons and Immortals if they try and spam them (and ghosts are affordable with mech, I do it in WoL and so do many masters players over on in the strategy forum). Backstabs however, are really, really hard to deal with as you can never get back in time to defend your bases.
It's not just that the mines cost supply either. Tanks are now three supply and hardly do damage to protoss as it is, meaning overall you will have fewer tanks that do less than broodwar and on top of that mines cost supply. So we either get enough mines to cover our flanks but have basically no tanks to push with, or get enough tanks to push and not have enough mines to cover the inevitable backstab. It is plainly obvious to me that blizzard just hates everything that made mech awesome. There solution to make mech viable were transformers and a ridiculous a-move unit that was so bad they had to remove it from the game. They say they want to remove deathballs while simultaneously removing as many positional based features as possible.
On September 25 2012 03:35 HypertonicHydroponic wrote:
On September 24 2012 17:18 Ramiz1989 wrote:
On September 24 2012 16:35 Glockateer wrote:
On September 22 2012 19:30 YyapSsap wrote: Firebat introduced in BW. Hellions introduced in WoL. Hellbats introduced in HOTS? ..
Ahh the circle of life is complete.
Hellbatshees introduced in LotV. ; )
Also, people need to stop with the whole "that doesn't make sense" shit and be happy they're trying things to make the game more interesting. Half the units don't make sense and logical reasoning can be easily fantasized, such as bio/nano based hellion shielding as said previously. I think adding a goliath would be perfect as it would give terran a mobile single-target GtA which changes the dynamics of many situations while making mech more viable. A few ghosts will always be needed TvP and people should accept that by now. EMPing archons is important in making both mech and bio armies work.
I agree completely about the biological tag whining, people don't have a clue what they are talking and whining about. And why wouldn't you use Ghosts as mech? As others have said, Mech isn't about "mechanical" units, it is about style of play, going slow push with your army, where positioning matters the most. Ghosts are perfect for that, they are slow, and you have to position them quite well to be able to hit EMPs/not get them killed. Also, I disagree with the Goliath, I think that they can introduce something else, but not Goliath, because Goliath is basically the same thing as Viking, the only difference is that Viking has to switch between the modes. They can add new unit that will be a good anti-air option but it has to be different from Goliath in terms of how it works.
No one is "whining" -- people generally like things to make logical sens to some degree, and they are just calling it how they see it. It makes little to no sense that something that is classified as mechanical because, you know it's a vehicle, not just a suit of armor, and then transforms into what is essentially a robot with a driver (like a goliath, or warhound, or thor...) would then somehow magically bond the vehicle parts to the driver, when they don't even do that for their infantry...... yeah, it makes no sense from a lore perspective, no matter how you slice it. The only possible thing I would accept is if because the Terran engineers are idiots, they allow the body of the driver to be exposed while inside the battle hellion form, much like the utility suit from Aliens (which the SCV is already based on).
It would make much more sense for something to be able to shift it's shielding around and change from a large "light" armored unit to a small "armored" armored unit.
And mech *is* about using mechanical units -- the slow push is a result of this play style coming from mechanical units. Hence why it is called "mech" and not "slow, positional ghost push". Also, the micro of mech is not about casting spells at just the right time in the right way. Mech in generally uses very little spell casting.
Yes, it is ok for SCVs to be able to repair Battle Cruisers from the ground, but Zealots can't attack them? But hey, when the Hellion is basically transforming into Marauder or SCV, a guy in a big suit, it doesn't make any sense, and suddenly everybody is going apeshit about the changes.
Please... people just dislike the design of it, they don't want to play the mech with half mech and half bio unit, if they are saying how they dislike it and how it doesn't make any sense, then they have double standards because there are a f**k ton of things in SC2(or SC universe for that matter) that doesn't make any sense.
Just as Hellions getting 50% HP when transforming in their battle mode, Marines destroying Carriers and Mothership, Reapers seeing above ground, Infestors spawning Infested Marines that they gathered from the battle even though you can use them as soon as Infestor spawn from the larva, Nydus that is traveling trough the space and other stuff.
And mech you are talking about is mech from Brood War. Guess what, Bio in SC2 contains Marines, Marauders, Ghosts with Medivac support, by your analogy, that isn't bio, because hey, it is using Medivacs! In mech, Ghosts aren't majority of your population, it is not your core unit, and it is not the unit your army resolves around, you need like 10-20 population of Ghosts for support, which isn't much in the late game especially because majority of Terran players in the late game are sacrificing SCVs because they have a tons of Mules. What you are saying is that Mech playstyle isn't Mech because of the stupid tag unit has below its stats? As others have said, Mech is Style of play, that is why everyone were saying how Warhounds weren't Mech units, because they were as mobile as Bio... Some sort of Hybrid, something between the Marauder and Thor.
If you disagree with me, that is ok, respect your opinion, but that is just that, an opinion, it is not the fact, it is not by some guide on how Mech should be played in HOTS and what should be considered an Mech strategy and what is not.
Yes, some people don't like the design. Some of those people dislike it because it does not make sense, from a lore perspective. Some people don't like it from a gameplay perspective. Some people don't like it for both. Saying that people don't like the design doesn't validate your apparent opinion that it is a good design. And people have a right not to like it just like people had a right not to like any of the other things about the game regardless of whether or not their voice has caused any change. If you wish to be dismissive of other's opinions that is fine, but that does not put yours above theirs. Are you Browder's nephew or something because you seem quite angry that anyone would try to have things in the game they want to play make sense.
And sure there are some issues of suspended disbelief in other areas of the game, that doesn't mean that we have to accept every single new one, especially if it seems like it is reaching. I mean, I don't think the idea is quite as bad as the warhound, but it is up there.
No, bio with medivacs is technically not pure bio, but since the character of the play style did not change AND the primary part of the unit composition (that being the ground infantry) has not changed, it is still a bio force. Sure medivacs cann't heal each other and can fly and cannot cast spells and are produced from the starport. But the primary component of the bio army was the marines anyway.
Look, in Broodwar, ghosts were sometimes used in conjuntion with mech play, too. That doesn't make the primary composition -- machines -- not a mech army, in either game. It just means that mech is supplemented with ghosts. Ghosts are spell casters, not a primary composition kind of unit, so it really doesn't matter where you use them, that's not the point. The point is that it makes sense for the mech army to be what it was, and it makes sense for the bio army to be what it was. I don't think you really get why the warhound was bad or axed. It was just because it felt wrong, its because it WAS wrong. It was a unit that overlapped purposes and was all around too good. It would not have mattered whether it was a bio unit or not, it was just wrong.
Having the hellion turn into a firebat is both bad design and doesn't make sense. If they want a firebat in the game, they should just make a firebat as a separate biological unit. If they want the battle hellion in the game as a transforming machine that has a driver inside it, then it should be a machine, it should be mechanical as the stupid tag underneath it. It doesn't change the character of mechanical play in the slightest and it has absolutely nothing to do with nostolgia (In fact, YOUR line of argumentation looks much more like you want the good ol' firebat back in the game much more than my argument ). I'm perfectly fine with the battle hellion the way it is. Making it a biological unit because of its transformation is simply nonsensical both from a lore and gameplay standpoint. So, if we want it healed with a medivac, we have it transform, because we can't get an SCV out there to repair it or don't want to drop a mule all the way out there and waste its mining capability. But since we happened to drop it for harass, we will just transform, heal up, transform and go harass again. I'm sorry, no that's simply rediculous. I don't care if it "raises the skill cap" or is even theoretically cool, its a schizophrenic unit at that point and has no clarity of purpose which is contrary to what Blizzard has generally tried to produce.
EDIT: @ Harbinger631 -- your ad hominem attack brings neither a contribution to the argument nor is even remotely accurate.
On September 25 2012 13:49 HypertonicHydroponic wrote: Yes, some people don't like the design. Some of those people dislike it because it does not make sense, from a lore perspective. Some people don't like it from a gameplay perspective. Some people don't like it for both. Saying that people don't like the design doesn't validate your apparent opinion that it is a good design. And people have a right not to like it just like people had a right not to like any of the other things about the game regardless of whether or not their voice has caused any change. If you wish to be dismissive of other's opinions that is fine, but that does not put yours above theirs. Are you Browder's nephew or something because you seem quite angry that anyone would try to have things in the game they want to play make sense.
And sure there are some issues of suspended disbelief in other areas of the game, that doesn't mean that we have to accept every single new one, especially if it seems like it is reaching. I mean, I don't think the idea is quite as bad as the warhound, but it is up there.
No, bio with medivacs is technically not pure bio, but since the character of the play style did not change AND the primary part of the unit composition (that being the ground infantry) has not changed, it is still a bio force. Sure medivacs cann't heal each other and can fly and cannot cast spells and are produced from the starport. But the primary component of the bio army was the marines anyway.
Look, in Broodwar, ghosts were sometimes used in conjuntion with mech play, too. That doesn't make the primary composition -- machines -- not a mech army, in either game. It just means that mech is supplemented with ghosts. Ghosts are spell casters, not a primary composition kind of unit, so it really doesn't matter where you use them, that's not the point. The point is that it makes sense for the mech army to be what it was, and it makes sense for the bio army to be what it was. I don't think you really get why the warhound was bad or axed. It was just because it felt wrong, its because it WAS wrong. It was a unit that overlapped purposes and was all around too good. It would not have mattered whether it was a bio unit or not, it was just wrong.
Having the hellion turn into a firebat is both bad design and doesn't make sense. If they want a firebat in the game, they should just make a firebat as a separate biological unit. If they want the battle hellion in the game as a transforming machine that has a driver inside it, then it should be a machine, it should be mechanical as the stupid tag underneath it. It doesn't change the character of mechanical play in the slightest and it has absolutely nothing to do with nostolgia (In fact, YOUR line of argumentation looks much more like you want the good ol' firebat back in the game much more than my argument ). I'm perfectly fine with the battle hellion the way it is. Making it a biological unit because of its transformation is simply nonsensical both from a lore and gameplay standpoint. So, if we want it healed with a medivac, we have it transform, because we can't get an SCV out there to repair it or don't want to drop a mule all the way out there and waste its mining capability. But since we happened to drop it for harass, we will just transform, heal up, transform and go harass again. I'm sorry, no that's simply rediculous. I don't care if it "raises the skill cap" or is even theoretically cool, its a schizophrenic unit at that point and has no clarity of purpose which is contrary to what Blizzard has generally tried to produce.
EDIT: @ Harbinger631 -- your ad hominem attack brings neither a contribution to the argument nor is even remotely accurate.
LOL, I am not Browders nephew, it is perfectly reasonable for people to want things that make sense, it is just that so many things don't make sense, and majority of people that whines about the Battle Hellion being biological, just close their eyes and ignore majority of them. Those are the double standards I am talking about, it really is the irony, because if anything doesn't make sense, those arguments don't make any sense. They can say "Hey, Battle Hellions are biological now and also mechanical? Well, I don't like it, but we will see how it will turn out.", but no, they are all going "Omg, Wtf, Hellion Biological?!?!? This is retarded, Blizzard don't have a clue what they are doing!!!" like it is the end of the world for them doing it, they are overreacting as usual, don't even want to see what will happen and will it work out. And it is BETA, Blizzard don't afraid to change things that don't work out, after all they've removed the Warhound and brought back the Carrier.
About the Bio, I agree, but that is the same thing I've said in my previous post about Mech. Technically, Mech with Ghosts aren't pure Mech, but playstyle didn't change, just as with Bio. You are going slow push, and just like you target fire with Siege Tanks when the enemy attack you, the same way you will "target fire" with Ghosts and EMP when the Protoss attack you. And about the Warhound, I perfectly understand why it was axed, I've never actually talk about it, what I've said that it wasn't considered Mech because of the unit stats and how it was more like an Giant Marauder than something along the lines of Mech unit.
I get what you are saying with Battle Hellions being biological, but still, again, that is your opinion. Even if it doesn't make sense, balance and coolness come first in SC universe(or at least SC2), and lore comes second. I disagree with adding Firebat(and no, I don't want Firebat back), I think that transforming Hellion into Biological gives a lot of depth to the unit, it expands it, and change it from one-dimensional to great unit, and even in the end, if it stays with just mechanical tag, fine by me, just try it first and see how it will work out. Again, I am all for balance and cool stuff, and majority of Pro players are, and that is where Blizzard is going, pushing SC2 even more ahead for e-Sports.
About what Harbinger631 said, he maybe wasn't right about you, but majority of people really dislike the changes because of Nostalgia, and those are the same people that wants Vulture, Spider Mine, Lurker, Goliath, Reaver back, without even thinking how it will affect the game.
i dont get it, if they want firebats why not bring back firebats? they look cooler than battle hellions anyways. healing battle hellions is kinda stupid...
all the arguments wether it is realistic or not are silly though, i mean the marauder is basically a guy in a huge mech suit, and even the marine has a huge suit, they should both rather be repaired than healed
what i dont like about it is that it is counter-intuitive to change the unit type when morphing, and also i think having firebats produced from the barracks would add more diversity than to have battle hellions produced from the factory that can transform
it would add a component to bio that depends on placement a lot, also firebats look kinda awesome while i never really liked the battle hellions design
its obvious terran should get at least one additional unit to be built out of the factory, but its hard to fit in new units in the already very complete arsenal. im still all for a mechanical caster, or for a bigger slower tank a la siege breaker
Which is why tempests really mix things up, basically destroying hellion/Thor/siege tank/viking deathball as mech moves so slowly they can't really retreat from a Toss deathball + tempests.
Obs micro then become pivotal to this type of deathball, forcing even more variations of play and unit compositions.
On September 25 2012 13:49 HypertonicHydroponic wrote: Yes, some people don't like the design. Some of those people dislike it because it does not make sense, from a lore perspective. Some people don't like it from a gameplay perspective. Some people don't like it for both. Saying that people don't like the design doesn't validate your apparent opinion that it is a good design. And people have a right not to like it just like people had a right not to like any of the other things about the game regardless of whether or not their voice has caused any change. If you wish to be dismissive of other's opinions that is fine, but that does not put yours above theirs. Are you Browder's nephew or something because you seem quite angry that anyone would try to have things in the game they want to play make sense.
And sure there are some issues of suspended disbelief in other areas of the game, that doesn't mean that we have to accept every single new one, especially if it seems like it is reaching. I mean, I don't think the idea is quite as bad as the warhound, but it is up there.
No, bio with medivacs is technically not pure bio, but since the character of the play style did not change AND the primary part of the unit composition (that being the ground infantry) has not changed, it is still a bio force. Sure medivacs cann't heal each other and can fly and cannot cast spells and are produced from the starport. But the primary component of the bio army was the marines anyway.
Look, in Broodwar, ghosts were sometimes used in conjuntion with mech play, too. That doesn't make the primary composition -- machines -- not a mech army, in either game. It just means that mech is supplemented with ghosts. Ghosts are spell casters, not a primary composition kind of unit, so it really doesn't matter where you use them, that's not the point. The point is that it makes sense for the mech army to be what it was, and it makes sense for the bio army to be what it was. I don't think you really get why the warhound was bad or axed. It was just because it felt wrong, its because it WAS wrong. It was a unit that overlapped purposes and was all around too good. It would not have mattered whether it was a bio unit or not, it was just wrong.
Having the hellion turn into a firebat is both bad design and doesn't make sense. If they want a firebat in the game, they should just make a firebat as a separate biological unit. If they want the battle hellion in the game as a transforming machine that has a driver inside it, then it should be a machine, it should be mechanical as the stupid tag underneath it. It doesn't change the character of mechanical play in the slightest and it has absolutely nothing to do with nostolgia (In fact, YOUR line of argumentation looks much more like you want the good ol' firebat back in the game much more than my argument ). I'm perfectly fine with the battle hellion the way it is. Making it a biological unit because of its transformation is simply nonsensical both from a lore and gameplay standpoint. So, if we want it healed with a medivac, we have it transform, because we can't get an SCV out there to repair it or don't want to drop a mule all the way out there and waste its mining capability. But since we happened to drop it for harass, we will just transform, heal up, transform and go harass again. I'm sorry, no that's simply rediculous. I don't care if it "raises the skill cap" or is even theoretically cool, its a schizophrenic unit at that point and has no clarity of purpose which is contrary to what Blizzard has generally tried to produce.
EDIT: @ Harbinger631 -- your ad hominem attack brings neither a contribution to the argument nor is even remotely accurate.
LOL, I am not Browders nephew, it is perfectly reasonable for people to want things that make sense, it is just that so many things don't make sense, and majority of people that whines about the Battle Hellion being biological, just close their eyes and ignore majority of them. Those are the double standards I am talking about, it really is the irony, because if anything doesn't make sense, those arguments don't make any sense. They can say "Hey, Battle Hellions are biological now and also mechanical? Well, I don't like it, but we will see how it will turn out.", but no, they are all going "Omg, Wtf, Hellion Biological?!?!? This is retarded, Blizzard don't have a clue what they are doing!!!" like it is the end of the world for them doing it, they are overreacting as usual, don't even want to see what will happen and will it work out. And it is BETA, Blizzard don't afraid to change things that don't work out, after all they've removed the Warhound and brought back the Carrier.
About the Bio, I agree, but that is the same thing I've said in my previous post about Mech. Technically, Mech with Ghosts aren't pure Mech, but playstyle didn't change, just as with Bio. You are going slow push, and just like you target fire with Siege Tanks when the enemy attack you, the same way you will "target fire" with Ghosts and EMP when the Protoss attack you. And about the Warhound, I perfectly understand why it was axed, I've never actually talk about it, what I've said that it wasn't considered Mech because of the unit stats and how it was more like an Giant Marauder than something along the lines of Mech unit.
I get what you are saying with Battle Hellions being biological, but still, again, that is your opinion. Even if it doesn't make sense, balance and coolness come first in SC universe(or at least SC2), and lore comes second. I disagree with adding Firebat(and no, I don't want Firebat back), I think that transforming Hellion into Biological gives a lot of depth to the unit, it expands it, and change it from one-dimensional to great unit, and even in the end, if it stays with just mechanical tag, fine by me, just try it first and see how it will work out. Again, I am all for balance and cool stuff, and majority of Pro players are, and that is where Blizzard is going, pushing SC2 even more ahead for e-Sports.
About what Harbinger631 said, he maybe wasn't right about you, but majority of people really dislike the changes because of Nostalgia, and those are the same people that wants Vulture, Spider Mine, Lurker, Goliath, Reaver back, without even thinking how it will affect the game.
Okay, if people are overreacting about Blizzard's design abilities that's one issue, but we've already seen examples of this (like D3, the warhound...) so it's really not that far fetched that this idea for the battle hellion is one of those things. But it is still a separate actual issue from the particular judgment that making a unit transform in between bio and mech is a bad idea and/or doesn't make sense. And even if it annoys you to no end when people question Blizzard's ability to design the game, even if you are not Browder's nephew, you cannot use that as a line of argumentation against the issue itself, which is the design of the battle hellion.
Okay, I am totally confused now about what you may have been trying to say about ghosts. Ghosts are not mech. Ghosts are support. They are support for bio. They are support for mech. They ARE a biological unit, and in WoL they are a much more prominently used unit MAYBE even so far as to call it a bio playstyle unit. But even if you take them away it doesn't change the primary component of the playstyle. In bio its marine (and in SC2 marauders), in mech its tanks for the most part with other mech units to support and fill in the weakness in immobility (i.e.. vulture/hellion).
And yes, it is my opinion. In my judgment, having the battle hellion change type like that is a bad design, from the standpoint of it making sense lore-wise, from the standpoint of it making sense gameplay-wise, and from the standpoint of a purely principles-of-good-game-design perspective. It is my OPINION -- I hope no one is confused about this being the gospel truth now. But in that I think my opinion is a stronger argument for the Against column, than yours is for the For column. But that too is my opinion, feel free to take it with a grain of salt.
The kind of depth that people like Liquid Tyler (who, happened to be a BW pro, has BW nostolgia, and knows what he is talking about, and probably disagrees with you that the people who talk up the vulture, reaver, etc. are the kind of people who don't think about how it will affect the game -- they've already seen how they affect a game) are the kinds of things seen in his carrier micro blog. That is not the kind of depth a semi-android-vehicle battle hellion will bring to the game. Making the battle hellion essentially morph into two completely different kinds of units does not solve some balance issue, and while theoretically it might be a cool idea, they are going to have to come up with something better than the battle hellion as an idea that would convince me. The "depth" of the micro required to heal/repair it doesn't add anything important to the game and it just causes more problems than it solves, and again makes for a schizophrenic unit. Here's another example of a problem it creates: as I mentioned, with the battle hellion transformation, hellion drops become even more cost effective. You fly in, snipe workers, fly out, HEAL, fly in, etc. That in itself is bad enough. But let's think about the other unit that is supposed to do this that they just reworked to have more purpose -- the reaper. What does it do now? Oh yeah, it heals. So now you have essentially two mechanics for the same kind of harassment that gets in, does some damage, gets out, heals pretty quickly, and then goes back for more damage. Sure they hit different timings, but essentially you start to edge out the usefulness of the reaper once again. To my way of thinking, thats actually removing depth from the game.
What... Limited Flexibility reduces depth? Tell that to chess players man, such a shallow game, they only have like 5 different units. I am trying so hard not to make drug references.
On September 25 2012 17:48 summerloud wrote: i dont get it, if they want firebats why not bring back firebats?
Why does everybody suggest this? Why the hell would we want another bio unit? =__=
The battle hellion is already a firebat, a marauder is in a huge armored suit, and the [s]firebat[s] battle hellion is also in a huge armored suit comparable to the one seen in the WoL campaign. So if medievacs can heal through the armor of marauders, the same should apply to battle hellions.
But if they are in a normal hellion mode, they could get their wheels damage and thus need an scv to repair them to be able to continue with their tasks.
On September 25 2012 17:48 summerloud wrote: i dont get it, if they want firebats why not bring back firebats?
Why does everybody suggest this? Why the hell would we want another bio unit? =__=
The battle hellion is already a firebat, a marauder is in a huge armored suit, and the [s]firebat[s] battle hellion is also in a huge armored suit comparable to the one seen in the WoL campaign. So if medievacs can heal through the armor of marauders, the same should apply to battle hellions.
But if they are in a normal hellion mode, they could get their wheels damage and thus need an scv to repair them to be able to continue with their tasks.
can battlehelions be repaired and healed by medivacs at the same time?
On September 26 2012 05:15 Adonminus wrote: The battle hellion is already a firebat, a marauder is in a huge armored suit, and the [s]firebat[s] battle hellion is also in a huge armored suit comparable to the one seen in the WoL campaign. So if medievacs can heal through the armor of marauders, the same should apply to battle hellions.
But if they are in a normal hellion mode, they could get their wheels damage and thus need an scv to repair them to be able to continue with their tasks.
Huh? I'm just saying that the BH should stay part of the mech PLAYSTYLE. Which is entirely dependent on ups and production. I don't really care what tag it has, as long as the balance is alright.
On September 25 2012 17:48 summerloud wrote: i dont get it, if they want firebats why not bring back firebats?
Why does everybody suggest this? Why the hell would we want another bio unit? =__=
The battle hellion is already a firebat, a marauder is in a huge armored suit, and the [s]firebat[s] battle hellion is also in a huge armored suit comparable to the one seen in the WoL campaign. So if medievacs can heal through the armor of marauders, the same should apply to battle hellions.
But if they are in a normal hellion mode, they could get their wheels damage and thus need an scv to repair them to be able to continue with their tasks.
can battlehelions be repaired and healed by medivacs at the same time?
Yes, they're like scvs. They are classified as Mechanical (can be repaired) and Biological (can be healed) at same time.
On September 26 2012 01:27 HypertonicHydroponic wrote: Okay, I am totally confused now about what you may have been trying to say about ghosts. Ghosts are not mech. Ghosts are support. They are support for bio. They are support for mech. They ARE a biological unit, and in WoL they are a much more prominently used unit MAYBE even so far as to call it a bio playstyle unit. But even if you take them away it doesn't change the primary component of the playstyle. In bio its marine (and in SC2 marauders), in mech its tanks for the most part with other mech units to support and fill in the weakness in immobility (i.e.. vulture/hellion).
And that is what I was saying? That was my point all along... I mean, Ghosts are support units, and Mech with them is still mech for the most part, same as Bio with Medivacs is still Bio. That is what I was trying to say.
The kind of depth that people like Liquid Tyler (who, happened to be a BW pro, has BW nostolgia, and knows what he is talking about, and probably disagrees with you that the people who talk up the vulture, reaver, etc. are the kind of people who don't think about how it will affect the game -- they've already seen how they affect a game) are the kinds of things seen in his carrier micro blog. That is not the kind of depth a semi-android-vehicle battle hellion will bring to the game. Making the battle hellion essentially morph into two completely different kinds of units does not solve some balance issue, and while theoretically it might be a cool idea, they are going to have to come up with something better than the battle hellion as an idea that would convince me. The "depth" of the micro required to heal/repair it doesn't add anything important to the game and it just causes more problems than it solves, and again makes for a schizophrenic unit. Here's another example of a problem it creates: as I mentioned, with the battle hellion transformation, hellion drops become even more cost effective. You fly in, snipe workers, fly out, HEAL, fly in, etc. That in itself is bad enough. But let's think about the other unit that is supposed to do this that they just reworked to have more purpose -- the reaper. What does it do now? Oh yeah, it heals. So now you have essentially two mechanics for the same kind of harassment that gets in, does some damage, gets out, heals pretty quickly, and then goes back for more damage. Sure they hit different timings, but essentially you start to edge out the usefulness of the reaper once again. To my way of thinking, thats actually removing depth from the game.
Don't know how it is removing the depth from the game. Point is, you could "heal" the Hellions even before with SCVs, and continue the harassment. Hellions being bio was actually a buff to the Battle Hellions in direct fight, so they can soak up even more damage, it is not just because of the harassment... There is also a ton of stuff that can attack, the regenerate out of combat, and attack again. Phoenixes and Void Rays, Marines and Marauders with Medivacs, Reapers, Roaches with Burrow etc. but that is not the point of this buff.
And that is exactly what I'm talking about. You are saying it doesn't solve some balance issues without even trying it in the game.
So in the end, I am ok with Battle Hellion being Bio, you really dislike it. I am waiting to see how game will develop before saying "Great unit!" or "Awful, cut it!", while you are saying "I know it won't solve the problems, cut it!".
So I have been playing the beta for a bit and would like to make some suggestions. Terrans need to get more than they have currently, while the mines are neat and fun, they don't really change any match ups. I would say battle hellions are interesting.... However in order for HOTS to not just be the same builds and exact same meta game, I would say the RAVEN needs to be fixed!!!! My take on this is terrans have a late game weakness, and the raven would fix that as well mix up the meta game. For instance, make the HSM 100 energy please. It causes zerg and toss to finally micro and have a unit that requires a lot of casting options and would totally make for entertaining games. Nerfing the dmg of hsm maybe, but not much if any. Also maybe replace turrets with another spell, but the cast range on the raven spells is an issue as well, for their costs they should not be suicide units. Also Defensive matrix to replace point defense drones, might be worth talking about |Or irradiate would be awesome as well, it could be nano virus, like a swarm of nano bots that attack near by units of the affected unit.
I would say remove the 250mm cannnon on thors!!!!! No one uses this spell ever, and it only gives mana to a unit that toss feedback, ruining mech totally. I would say give thors defensive matrix or some other spell that would make them viable in mech vP. Or an AOE spell that maybe slows units and dmgs them over time, like a napalm cannon or something. This is of course only if they have a spell at all, no spell is better than 250mm cannon at this point.
But so far, everyone is doing the same builds and maybe you will see a mine here or there. TVP is pretty much identical to WOL. I think all Terrans would agree with me, check the Team liquid forums, and they all agree, there is not much change in HOTS for them.
Swarm hosts are very difficult to deal with, I might suggest changing the locusts to broodlings, as it would make it possible to at least deal with them. Becuase once they are out, with even a little support they are an unbreakable line as it stands now. Which is slightly imbalanced, and would make for a predictable transition that might bore viewers of tourneys.
Protoss, no one seems to be using the air units, maybe the oracle, but not much. And MU's seem very similar as WOL. I would say a new ground unit with a new ability would be a great addition. I could see PVZ using the tempest, however I think a ground unit that can have an ability like; creates a void units can hide in temporarily, so the unit casts it, and units go into a hidden vortex, unless you have detection, and can pop out for an attack. And this unit can maybe can thorw down a slowing trail, so it drains it mana but behind it a trail is left behind that if units walk into it are slowed. This would shake up PV everything.
I'm in favor of changing more things for Terran in HotS, but I have to point out something:
On September 27 2012 01:39 dreadlordx wrote: However in order for HOTS to not just be the same builds and exact same meta game
You do realize that even if nothing is changed for one of the races and only the other two get changes, the first race will still have to adapt its builds to compensate, right? So even if we had WoL Terran facing off against HotS Zerg you'd still see players adjusting to handle Swarm Hosts, Vipers, Ultra burrow charge etc. It's not even obvious a race will be weaker even if it has fewer options, the only real way to determine balance in such situations is to vigorously test it.
The real problem is that it just isn't fun for one of the races to have fewer shiny toys, which is why I'd like to see Terran get a little bit more.
On September 27 2012 14:25 Blackknight232 wrote: tech reactors allows us to keep on par with zerg and toss production so that way we can have 2 of each unit that would require a tech lab
well to help mech tvp out more as for 4 cause it can heal mechanical units which helps out a lot
So you want HOTS to be WOL units with faster production. And mech healing so Thor rushes can be imba.
Your idea is bad and you should feel bad. HOTS is not supposed to be an expansion but a sequel. (Even though it's still named SC2) That means NEW dynamics and experience, NOT same old sh*t but faster, might as well name it SC2: Turbo
That battle hellion bio flag is stupid. It renders mech in TvP even less possible due to bonus damage from archon. I just tried it out with the editor. Without the bio flag, battle hellion does a much much better job in defending the tank siege line and tanking damage from the protoss army. Now with the bio battle hellion, all the pains that bio suffered from archon just come back and hit hard.
The battle hellion is not a firebat. The firebat is not capable of turning into a vehicle with the attack mode of a lurker and moving faster than speedlings. Nor can the firebat be repaired by SCVs. The battle hellion cannot stim.
This comparison is really dumb. Why would I want firebats when battle hellions are clearly better?
On September 27 2012 16:25 larse wrote: That battle hellion bio flag is stupid. It renders mech in TvP even less possible due to bonus damage from archon. I just tried it out with the editor. Without the bio flag, battle hellion does a much much better job in defending the tank siege line and tanking damage from the protoss army. Now with the bio battle hellion, all the pains that bio suffered from archon just come back and hit hard.
The reason why they changed it to bio is so that meching terrans will have some encouragement to make medivacs. This not only keeps those same battle hellions alive for longer but it also opens up more harass paths. Sure they become more vulnerable to archons, but is that not worth the trade off? I'd say it definitely is.
On September 27 2012 16:25 larse wrote: That battle hellion bio flag is stupid. It renders mech in TvP even less possible due to bonus damage from archon. I just tried it out with the editor. Without the bio flag, battle hellion does a much much better job in defending the tank siege line and tanking damage from the protoss army. Now with the bio battle hellion, all the pains that bio suffered from archon just come back and hit hard.
This is a good counter to prevent the same mass 3/3 speedling rush that Zs use. Mass 3/3 BHs in large numbers could obviously could overpower mass Protoss gateway with ease.
The bio-flag in a way allows Archon remain relevant in the PvT matchup against the new units.
On September 27 2012 14:25 Blackknight232 wrote: tech reactors allows us to keep on par with zerg and toss production so that way we can have 2 of each unit that would require a tech lab
well to help mech tvp out more as for 4 cause it can heal mechanical units which helps out a lot
So you want HOTS to be WOL units with faster production. And mech healing so Thor rushes can be imba.
the game is already imbalanced as it is so what difference does it make if we have tech reactors or healing mech units? Toss has w.g, zerg has injects, we have reactors that only doubles the basic unit and everything else we need, we need to mass produce rax/facts/ports just to keep up so yes i think we need faster production,
As for the mech healing thor rush i would love to do that as payback for all the bs that toss and zerg has gotten away with in WOL you may not but i would love to
and no i don't feel bad at all for suggesting that cause the game has to change at some point in time
Battle hellion can transform to the mobile hellion and it's more mobile than medivac with battle hellion. Why the hell do we need another type of mobility.
The trade off between being able to be healed by medivacs and taking bonus damage from archon is definitely not worthy, because you lose the big engagement.
3/3 battle hellion doesn't beat 3/3 gateway units. Stalker beats battle hellion in small and large numbers. You tried that out in unit tester, you will know.
On September 27 2012 14:25 Blackknight232 wrote: tech reactors allows us to keep on par with zerg and toss production so that way we can have 2 of each unit that would require a tech lab
well to help mech tvp out more as for 4 cause it can heal mechanical units which helps out a lot
So you want HOTS to be WOL units with faster production. And mech healing so Thor rushes can be imba.
the game is already imbalanced as it is so what difference does it make if we have tech reactors or healing mech units? Toss has w.g, zerg has injects, we have reactors that only doubles the basic unit and everything else we need, we need to mass produce rax/facts/ports just to keep up so yes i think we need faster production,
As for the mech healing thor rush i would love to do that as payback for all the bs that toss and zerg has gotten away with in WOL you may not but i would love to
and no i don't feel bad at all for suggesting that cause the game has to change at some point in time
You do realize that Toss needs to build a ton of Gateways to be able to mass warp in? Our units don't magically appear. Why should you need less productions facilities?
On September 28 2012 00:42 larse wrote: Battle hellion can transform to the mobile hellion and it's more mobile than medivac with battle hellion. Why the hell do we need another type of mobility.
The trade off between being able to be healed by medivacs and taking bonus damage from archon is definitely not worthy, because you lose the big engagement.
3/3 battle hellion doesn't beat 3/3 gateway units. Stalker beats battle hellion in small and large numbers. You tried that out in unit tester, you will know.
Most of the time there should be Tanks with those Battle Hellions, which just obliterate any Stalker, so I don't get what you are trying to say, they are just support and better at it now.
On September 28 2012 01:40 Mudkipnick wrote: Have you guys seen Dragon use widow mines? they're such great units, lol.
Morrow is also showing how awesome they can be. He beat back every type of early pressure with them just by placing one or two in the correct place, wiping out double the supply or more. It didn't look easy and he was always forced to move them, but it was awesome to see him do so much with so few units.
On September 27 2012 16:25 larse wrote: That battle hellion bio flag is stupid. It renders mech in TvP even less possible due to bonus damage from archon. I just tried it out with the editor. Without the bio flag, battle hellion does a much much better job in defending the tank siege line and tanking damage from the protoss army. Now with the bio battle hellion, all the pains that bio suffered from archon just come back and hit hard.
This is a good counter to prevent the same mass 3/3 speedling rush that Zs use. Mass 3/3 BHs in large numbers could obviously could overpower mass Protoss gateway with ease.
The bio-flag in a way allows Archon remain relevant in the PvT matchup against the new units.
The problem is the tank still remain very mediocre though. Battle Helions now don't provide cover long enough for tanks to be effective.
Battle Helions are nice with Bio against many Zealots BUT combined with Tanks in PvT are not really useful , which isn't the Battle Helions fault but how bad the tanks are.
On September 28 2012 00:42 larse wrote: Battle hellion can transform to the mobile hellion and it's more mobile than medivac with battle hellion. Why the hell do we need another type of mobility.
The trade off between being able to be healed by medivacs and taking bonus damage from archon is definitely not worthy, because you lose the big engagement.
3/3 battle hellion doesn't beat 3/3 gateway units. Stalker beats battle hellion in small and large numbers. You tried that out in unit tester, you will know.
Most of the time there should be Tanks with those Battle Hellions, which just obliterate any Stalker, so I don't get what you are trying to say, they are just support and better at it now.
Oh, it is a response to the response to my post. Because there is no quote. So i guess you didn't get it.
On September 28 2012 07:21 Crawdad wrote: There hasn't been a balance update for a while... :-/
It's been seven days.... one week..... how often do you want them to pump out balance changes??? They haven't even had time to properly see if the last set of balance changes were good...
On September 28 2012 07:21 Crawdad wrote: There hasn't been a balance update for a while... :-/
It's been seven days.... one week..... how often do you want them to pump out balance changes??? They haven't even had time to properly see if the last set of balance changes were good...
well they did one every week until now, so i kind of expected the next one right about now... there is still so much to do!
1. Purify is now more of a burst damage ability than any sort of sustained defense for expansions. Im guessing blizzard either felt like the purify wasnt good enough in a short window of time, or that it was too strong when activated often. Possibly a combination of both. It feels more important to hit the ability at the right time now, since both the effect of purify and the absence of it will be more significant.
2. Firebats are now bio. This makes them snipable(?) and less effective against archon compositions. I guess you can also transfuse them. As far as I know, no other unit has bonus damage to biological. To my knowledge the did change the viper aoe to affect all units some time ago. Smells like they did some testing and thought that archons were not doing well enough against them. Cant think of another reason. Unless they intend to bring the warhound back and intend for firebats to counter them.
3. Firebats work with medivacs. No idea here. It doesnt synergize well with bio since stimmed bio moves much faster. Doesnt synergize with mech since no other mech units can be healed. Also makes no sense from a mobility POV since hellions in their regular form are just faster anyway. Maybe ghost/firebat compositions backed up by mech is what they are going for, but I dont know.
4. Spidermines do more splash. Plain buff imo. Small numbers of mines will now deal with packs of low health units much better. Im guessing mines can be used to hold off mid game pushes like roach/banes or gateway pushes. Makes going factory earlier a bit safer. Also makes mines overall a bit stronger I guess. Looking forward to seeing them used.
Bio hellion is a nerf, not a buff. A meching terran dont want to build medivacs at all lol and i doubt they suddenly will now because the hellion can be healed,its just a waste of 2 suply and 100/100 if you have a full mech army. Medivacs only to heal battlehellions, wich are considerd cannon fodder annyway. It just makes no sense, Maybe if you go bio it is now sensible to mix in a few battle hellions, i dunno.
On September 29 2012 01:27 Fenris420 wrote: So essentially, the changes are:
1. Purify is now more of a burst damage ability than any sort of sustained defense for expansions. Im guessing blizzard either felt like the purify wasnt good enough in a short window of time, or that it was too strong when activated often. Possibly a combination of both. It feels more important to hit the ability at the right time now, since both the effect of purify and the absence of it will be more significant.
2. Firebats are now bio. This makes them snipable(?) and less effective against archon compositions. I guess you can also transfuse them. As far as I know, no other unit has bonus damage to biological. To my knowledge the did change the viper aoe to affect all units some time ago. Smells like they did some testing and thought that archons were not doing well enough against them. Cant think of another reason. Unless they intend to bring the warhound back and intend for firebats to counter them.
3. Firebats work with medivacs. No idea here. It doesnt synergize well with bio since stimmed bio moves much faster. Doesnt synergize with mech since no other mech units can be healed. Also makes no sense from a mobility POV since hellions in their regular form are just faster anyway. Maybe ghost/firebat compositions backed up by mech is what they are going for, but I dont know.
4. Spidermines do more splash. Plain buff imo. Small numbers of mines will now deal with packs of low health units much better. Im guessing mines can be used to hold off mid game pushes like roach/banes or gateway pushes. Makes going factory earlier a bit safer. Also makes mines overall a bit stronger I guess. Looking forward to seeing them used.
Did I miss anything?
I've played around it with Bio/Battle Helion/ Medivac in TvP. Yeah BH are slower when Bio is Stimmed but when you move around you don't Stim ( and you could transform if you needed mobility ) but even at just 1-2 Upgrades they really really melt Zealots very fast. They can be kinda useful here you just need to position them infront of you Bio to buffer and kill the Zealots then it works quite nice. They die fast very but so do the Zealot and since Helions also build kinda fast thats not really the problem. They only do well against Zealots anyway and once those are dead your Bio has an advantage.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/a/img843/4582/screenshot2012092022434.jpg)
It seems incredibly sloppy.
![[image loading]](http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9qqgynQfe1qa6rih.png)
