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On September 14 2012 04:07 Bourne wrote:
I thought that Protoss harass had a fundamental flaw to begin with.
All our harass capabilities cost gas, and gas is the fundamental resource protoss need in the main army. Therefore, it always becomes that our harass NEEDS to do significant damage to the terrans economy (for example) for it to be worth it.
From that assumption i think we can all agree that the best harass in the game (or so called harass) is zealot run-by's or warp prism and zealot's to harass. This is because we are trading a pure mineral investment in to harass, we never want to trade gas because then we need to do a significant amount of damage or we lose a strength in the core gas protoss army.
This is why the oracle is fundamentally flawed in my opinion, we have to spend 150/200 + 150/150 (stargate) into harass, when i think its been mentioned that if they attack with their harvesters they get delayed by 200 minerals. The floor is already their, we don't have enough ROI in the short term at least to be able to afford these earlier in the game (when they are most effective). I think the oracle needs to cost as much as a sentry/high templar for it to be considered, the oracle is currently the most expensive spellcaster unit in the game, and is frankly the shittest.
I think your analisys is spot on.
I just don't agree with the conclusion. I just think Oracle needs to be redesigned to do DAMAGE. This idea that Blizzard has of Protoss as a race that spends a shit ton of gas to just be "annyoing" is simply ridiculous. Think of Oracle and Entomb. Think of Tempest with its "hey i know it's firing at my base from somewhere, but I don't need to deal with it right now, I'll deal with it later" philosophy (quoting DB there). Can that bullshit. If you want me to spend 300/300 or 150/200 resources I want to put them in something that has the pontential to cripple the opponent, cost-effectively, not something that can be annoying and if my opponent is really really retarded might even help me win the game. If you want to give me a unit like that, then make it cost 100/50 and we'll see if we can find a spot for it even now and then.
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On September 14 2012 02:10 kcdc wrote:
But my point is that no matter how much you buff the oracle's harass, stargate still sucks for combat value. You can already do lots of harass damage with stargate, but you lose anyway because the tech is too one-dimensional.
This is a great point. I like the theory behind the Oracle, but this is definitely the problem with Stargate tech.
Best example of that is last night's Day9 daily. Day goes gate-stargate expand in PvT, and then as he's looking at the replay he realizes "y'know I think at any point in time after I built those 3 phoenixes, the Terran could have just a-moved and killed me". He semi-alluded to the fact that he has no idea how to use Stargate against Terran early on in the daily, and I presume the reason for that is that if he sees phoenixes in TvP, he just a-moves and wins.
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speed prism and phoenix are still as good in harassment, you just need the ability to use them. Why go for the oracle when a speed prism unlocks the whole robo tech tree.
I am having alot of fun with protoss harassment, the variation a prism allows is just so cool. Dropping and warping in elsewhere, switching up the units outside of the opponents vision etc. You need alot of decision making, but the harassment can be super effective. The more you can use your phoenix, while you are doing everything else, the better they are.
Both take enormous skill, something people always want sc2 to have.
As for the Oracle, imo its just a unit to conter swarmhost, canons die before the swarmhost is in detection range, observers get sniped by queens before you have a chance to kill the swarmhosts. The oracle is a nice suicide unit to guarantee the swarmhost stays detected long enough. And can be build on the way to tempest (i wish i would be able to build carriers, harder to micro but way more useful)
Also the oracle is more a scout with soft harassment, nothing else you keep it alive and scout and hurt the eco of the opponent a small bit. The important part is the information you get. But the speed prism is just better at that (more durable and well full robo tech)
So yeah the oracle joins the speed prism and the phoenix. It was supposed to make stargate more viable, but the phoenix is better that. The only thing the oracle adds is soft detection. But building robo + observer is almost cheaper.
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The phoenix isn't exclusive to harass though, it also serves well to scout and keep your colossi safe, and its speed+strafe shooting makes it very potent for shutting down drops and mutas unlikes banshees. The tempest still seems like a bad phoenix though. The only thing it seems worthwhile against is an enemy protoss, because they don't normally get a stargate. Still, you're not going to want to make more than one because of how much supply/stargate time it takes up, otherwise they'll just a-move and kill you 
For terran it seems like making a tempest is a signal for them to just kill you, or if they're going MMM just make a viking. Carrier's seem like they would decimate standard HotS terran comps so I don't know why they removed them. Zerg is weird since phoenix's already kill mutas but brood lords might be really vulnerable.
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I never understood the current oracle tbh, when is denying minerals supposed to be worth building it ?
Early/mid game PvZ you simply delay your expansion doing this instead of VR expand, so you losse minerals (mostly from not expanding as fast, but also from building the bloody unit )+ some gas at the expense of him lossing minerals
Late game PvZ the zerg doesn't care about lossing bunch of minerals, up until every expo on the map is taken the gas is the problem.
PvT ? How viable is the stargate ? It can be viable if the opponent is meching... but guess what mech doesn't need a lot of.
Late game PVT is the only situation i can think of having 1 so you can "deny" him when he drops 8 mules on the same expo.
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This is mostly about phoenixes, and not the oracle which is obviously an ineffectual unit. I am confused.
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614 Posts
"Toss is too one-dimensional... Hey I know, let's give them units they already have! Then they'll be REALLY dynamic!"
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On September 14 2012 04:42 FeyFey wrote:
speed prism and phoenix are still as good in harassment, you just need the ability to use them. Why go for the oracle when a speed prism unlocks the whole robo tech tree.
I am having alot of fun with protoss harassment, the variation a prism allows is just so cool. Dropping and warping in elsewhere, switching up the units outside of the opponents vision etc. You need alot of decision making, but the harassment can be super effective. The more you can use your phoenix, while you are doing everything else, the better they are.
Both take enormous skill, something people always want sc2 to have.
As for the Oracle, imo its just a unit to conter swarmhost, canons die before the swarmhost is in detection range, observers get sniped by queens before you have a chance to kill the swarmhosts. The oracle is a nice suicide unit to guarantee the swarmhost stays detected long enough. And can be build on the way to tempest (i wish i would be able to build carriers, harder to micro but way more useful)
Also the oracle is more a scout with soft harassment, nothing else you keep it alive and scout and hurt the eco of the opponent a small bit. The important part is the information you get. But the speed prism is just better at that (more durable and well full robo tech)
So yeah the oracle joins the speed prism and the phoenix. It was supposed to make stargate more viable, but the phoenix is better that. The only thing the oracle adds is soft detection. But building robo + observer is almost cheaper.
Phoenix and Warp Prism are both self-limiting forms of harass though. Phoenix run out of energy and are forced to go home. So one can easily expand or macro past that harass. Warp Prisms can only carry 2-4 slots worth of units (usually Zealots) which are melee and susceptible to getting stuck or kited very easily. Once you warpin units beyond your capacity for saving, the ROI drops precipitously. In comparison to 8 marines and a Medivac which wreck face unless you literally have Stalkers positioned on the edge, and even then, if they get on the ground, they equally trade with killing off the Stalkers.
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I don't think the solution is giving protoss another splash unit (unless it's the reaver because it's the best protoss unit of all time). As you have stated, one major issue with the phoenix and oracle is that it limited in it's defensive capabilities. If you use too much phoenix energy harassing then it can't do anything versus a ground attack (this happens a lot to me in pvp) whereas a cloak banshee is much better at allowing someone to defend with minimal units. The oracle has the same defensive limitations since it can no longer cast a cloaking field. What Blizzard should consider is implementing an ability on the oracle that can bolster defenses so a player can defend with minimal units much like the voidray in PvZ. Otherwise the stargate will see just as much use as WoL.
As for a defensive ability, shield battery for structures comes to mind.
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Hots made it abundantly clear that Protoss is badly designed and straight up underpowered in so many ways.
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On September 14 2012 05:33 BearStorm wrote:
I don't think the solution is giving protoss another splash unit (unless it's the reaver because it's the best protoss unit of all time). As you have stated, one major issue with the phoenix and oracle is that it limited in it's defensive capabilities. If you use too much phoenix energy harassing then it can't do anything versus a ground attack (this happens a lot to me in pvp) whereas a cloak banshee is much better at allowing someone to defend with minimal units. The oracle has the same defensive limitations since it can no longer cast a cloaking field. What Blizzard should consider is implementing an ability on the oracle that can bolster defenses so a player can defend with minimal units much like the voidray in PvZ. Otherwise the stargate will see just as much use as WoL.
As for a defensive ability, shield battery for structures comes to mind.
I don't really like the concept of having another splash unit either. I'd much prefer a buff around the Oracle (like cloaking field was supposed to be) which amplifies combat strength (like cloaking field would have done indirectly). They won't do this, though, because it also amplifies the strength of the "deathball" units like the Colossus - which just about everyone agrees doesn't need a buff.
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Give  something really worthwhile to shuttle around and we'll see the return of iconic shuttle harass and micro.
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On September 14 2012 06:07 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 05:33 BearStorm wrote:
I don't think the solution is giving protoss another splash unit (unless it's the reaver because it's the best protoss unit of all time). As you have stated, one major issue with the phoenix and oracle is that it limited in it's defensive capabilities. If you use too much phoenix energy harassing then it can't do anything versus a ground attack (this happens a lot to me in pvp) whereas a cloak banshee is much better at allowing someone to defend with minimal units. The oracle has the same defensive limitations since it can no longer cast a cloaking field. What Blizzard should consider is implementing an ability on the oracle that can bolster defenses so a player can defend with minimal units much like the voidray in PvZ. Otherwise the stargate will see just as much use as WoL.
As for a defensive ability, shield battery for structures comes to mind. I don't really like the concept of having another splash unit either. I'd much prefer a buff around the Oracle (like cloaking field was supposed to be) which amplifies combat strength (like cloaking field would have done indirectly). They won't do this, though, because it also amplifies the strength of the "deathball" units like the Colossus - which just about everyone agrees doesn't need a buff.
Yeah, I don't want them to turn the tempest into a colossus either, but it sure would make phoenix openings more fun. I was just drawing a comparison to Blizz's decision to add a marauder to the factory in order to make tanks better. It's effective in achieving the intended goal, but it's not great design.
If the goal is to fix stargate play rather than improving robo harass, then you need to put a unit on the stargate that trades halfway decently against hydras and marines. Make it sort of like mutas where they lose for cost, but they're not totally useless. That unit can be the tempest, the carrier or a buffed version of the void ray, but it needs to be strong enough that building them for defense is at least worth considering.
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On the other hand protoss can now move out with an "incomplete" army, by the means of the MS Core's recall.
Oracle made SG openings more viable by providing detection.
You can also state that protoss should not equally effective method's of harass to zerg or terran by the means of asymmetric equality. I'm not saying the design of protoss mechanics is perfect, but giving protoss equal harassment to T or Z would in my eyes be a total design fail.
Also stating that economic damage is the primary use of harassment is terribly shortsighted, you don't harass to kill someone. You mainly harass to shift the risk/reward of the opponent moving out in your favour, buying you time. If you buff the oracle to allow constant entomb's, your harassment will allow you to put up a third base. Increase it's shields to make it viable even when someone build's static AA.
The speed of the oracle makes it viable harass throughout the game if you're careful enough.
Conclusion; just buff it, there is nothing fundamentally broken.
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On September 14 2012 03:31 Ideas wrote:
I'm not saying blizzard should bring back the reaver but they totally missed the point of why harass in a game is so cool.
When a protoss player reaver drops in BW it's not cool because a he just killed a bunch of workers or delayed mining for a long time. It's cool because of all the drama and spectacle created by loading up a reaver in a shuttle and flying it over a base. It's cool seeing a ballsy protoss player find a small hole in the terran perimeter and dart in and drop off a reaver and target-fire the right SCV that wasn't pulled fast enough. It's cool see a protoss player dismantle a strong defense with just a reaver, shuttle, and 2 zealots. It's cool because there is a HUGE risk involved in reaver harass (because reavers are expensive and in the case of pvz critical for defense as well as harass (IE if you lose your 1st 2 reavers without doing anything then the zerg can just march right into your natural with some hydras)). It's cool because YOU DONT KNOW WHATS GOING TO HAPPEN (not just scarabs dudding out, but seeing how well the protoss controls his shuttle and how tight the defense of the opposing player is, how fast they can react and pull workers, etc).
Entomb is the lame as fuck compared to any other form of harass in BW or SC2. It's almost as bad as just giving the protoss a button in the HUD to press that says "stop terran from mining for X seconds". there is no risk involved in sending a fast flying unit behind a mineral line and casting a spell really quick and leaving. There's no way a player can be BETTER at doing that than anyone else, ever. It's an incredibly shallow spell that only does 1 thing in 1 situation. IT'S FUCKING BORING.
You can eventually fix balance, but a boring spell that makes it through beta will be boring forever (just look at corruptors).
Well said, sir.
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On September 14 2012 02:06 lowercase wrote:
The big problem with Entomb, in my opinion, as a harass mechanic is that the workers themselves are capable of fighting it off. It's pretty retarded when the shields over the minerals are so weak that they fall to drills and spittle, but the bigger problem is that the player under attack isn't forced to withdraw some or all of his army to combat it, like what would occur when you were facing more conventional harass (DT, banshee, marine, hellion, etc). The "damage" done is less than the mineral cost of a scan (270 minerals for a full MULE), making Entomb extremely cost-inefficient harass.
A good solution I saw posted was to make Entomb affect workers instead of minerals. This would be great, as it would require the player to bring units over to defend, otherwise his units would stand useless. It would also affect gas mining and building construction, as a bonus. It would even open up other uses for the ability, such as entombing SCVs repairing a planetary fortress, for example, or even protecting your OWN workers from harass! It would need a radius nerf for it to work, but it certainly would be better than the current system right now.
I like this idea. Adds a lot more depth to the spell for sure.
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Canada11379 Posts
On September 14 2012 04:16 Garmer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 03:12 Falling wrote:The goal of the oracle is to give protoss a harassing unit that deals a good amount of harass without costing too much or deviating from "normal play" too much, or at least, from what will become "normal play". Well if that's the case, the I guess they were successful because the Oracle really played it safe in not changing normal too much. The Protoss core army composition is virtually untouched. However, they also said, they wanted to break up the death ball a bit, but if that's the case, they're playing way too cautious. I hadn't thought of the similarities to the Phoenix's, but I guess it's rather true that they're both pretty niche units when it comes to harass. A more versatile unit that could be used in attack, defence, and harass when combined with the warp prism would definitely be ideal. Need to have more drop/undrop micro harass that abuses a units burst damage and protect it from returning fire. aka reaver :D
Well yes and no. More like, look at what made the reaver successful and build upon that. Learn from it.
Ideas summarizes exactly what made harass awesome and why the Oracle is pretty sub-standard in comparison.
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Yup its a poorly designed unit to say the least. However, is the oracle the one with the temporary cloaking field or is that the core? If it is, it might be able to serve some potential with drops or pushes (forces zerg / terran to make a bunch of detection). Still though, apart from its mineral block which can be stopped fairly easily imo by some static defence aorund the edge of your base, it doesnt do much.
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United States4883 Posts
On September 14 2012 04:07 Bourne wrote:
I thought that Protoss harass had a fundamental flaw to begin with.
All our harass capabilities cost gas, and gas is the fundamental resource protoss need in the main army. Therefore, it always becomes that our harass NEEDS to do significant damage to the terrans economy (for example) for it to be worth it.
From that assumption i think we can all agree that the best harass in the game (or so called harass) is zealot run-by's or warp prism and zealot's to harass. This is because we are trading a pure mineral investment in to harass, we never want to trade gas because then we need to do a significant amount of damage or we lose a strength in the core gas protoss army.
This is why the oracle is fundamentally flawed in my opinion, we have to spend 150/200 + 150/150 (stargate) into harass, when i think its been mentioned that if they attack with their harvesters they get delayed by 200 minerals. The floor is already their, we don't have enough ROI in the short term at least to be able to afford these earlier in the game (when they are most effective). I think the oracle needs to cost as much as a sentry/high templar for it to be considered, the oracle is currently the most expensive spellcaster unit in the game, and is frankly the shittest.
I totally agree with the first part of your post. It's so so true that the reason why protoss harass is not "good" is simply because it delays important tech like twilight council upgrades, colossus tech, templar tech, forge upgrades, etc by eating gas. I don't think anyone can question the validity of whether or not an immortal drop or a sentry drop are effective, the question is "at what cost?"
That being said, I don't exactly agree with the oracle being too much gas. The idea behind the oracle is to give "free" harassment in that you won't be losing units in the exchange (unless the keep the oracle like the old warp prism). Your source of harassment is not the oracle running in, killing stuff, and running out, possibly getting sniped like a banshee. It's a free, unlimited harass all the way into lategame based off of energy. When you pay 200 gas + 100 gas for a cloaked banshee, you have to do damage, but the cloaked banshee loses its effectiveness in time; the oracle, on the other hand, assuming it doesn't get killed by buildings that don't move, has unlimited potential harass for the one-time fee of 200 gas.
However, in its current state, it's quite obvious that entomb needs some tweaking and possibly the oracle's health needs to be buffed, etc. But as I was saying in my earlier post, the use of oracle doesn't deviate too broadly from what will become "normal play" as protoss, which makes it a highly successful unit EVEN WITH THE GAS COST.
On September 14 2012 03:12 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +The goal of the oracle is to give protoss a harassing unit that deals a good amount of harass without costing too much or deviating from "normal play" too much, or at least, from what will become "normal play". Well if that's the case, the I guess they were successful because the Oracle really played it safe in not changing normal too much. The Protoss core army composition is virtually untouched. However, they also said, they wanted to break up the death ball a bit, but if that's the case, they're playing way too cautious.
I think that we've only seen a little bit of the game, but I predict that stargate openings will become quite common, especially if the tempest is changed around to be useful. I see oracle/phoenix harass followed by quick 3 bases in the future of protoss. In addition, I think we'll be seeing at least 3-4ish tempests sprinkled in with lategame protoss armies.
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OK, this could be a pretty crazy idea, but how about offensive cloaking for the Oracle? The Oracle temporarily cloaks enemy units and structures, cloaked objects cannot be targeted, given orders, or attack without detection to allow them to be selected, with any affected objects losing their detection abilities for the duration of the spell. You either wait out the ability or you bring over a detector/use a scan. Turrets wouldn't work since any competent player would make sure they cloak those too.
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EPT
