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On September 06 2012 11:31 Sbuiko wrote:
I like it. It's closer to how it worked in BW too. Don't like the line thingy tho. Maybe instead of that dashed line, they could just extend the existing scan circle animation to a much bigger radius, while reducing it's opaqueness a bit. It would look less artificial that way.
Why is it closer to how BW worked? If I remember correctly, the BW scan was just like a bunch of sparkly stars that definitely did not clearly show you the range of vision that the Terran saw. I actually liked that a lot better than a big yellow clock on the screen.
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On September 06 2012 12:59 teamamerica wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 11:31 Sbuiko wrote:
I like it. It's closer to how it worked in BW too. Don't like the line thingy tho. Maybe instead of that dashed line, they could just extend the existing scan circle animation to a much bigger radius, while reducing it's opaqueness a bit. It would look less artificial that way. Wtf. BW scan radius looked even smaller than sc2 did before this patch (incidentally I think it's stupid but that's besides the point). Seriously, where did you get this idea from? Did you just pull it out of your ass? Have you played broodwar? It's just so objectively wrong and no ones called him on it it's mindboggling. Anyway, imo Blizzard has bigger problems then making problems out of nothing. Maybe by LotV protoss will be so evolved I'll just start my Starcraft up and my game will play itself while feeding me. Fuck if I know.
Haha we both called that shit out at the same time
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On September 06 2012 12:14 FabledIntegral wrote:
Blegh. Might as well show how far siege tanks can shoot then.
You mean.. like a circle with the center being the seige tank that shows the range it can shoot?
+ Show Spoiler +
Nahhh, thats going to far...
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Well, this change was a bit retarded. There is no reason not to be able to know what has been scanned. I mean, for every unit, you can pretty much tell where their range ends and if they have or haven't seen your units. But that? Seriously, the scan animation is so small in comparison to the area, and only a small radius difference about what you think it sees and what it really sees can make a big difference on whether to stick with a strategy or not. I am not an expert on the subject, but I am pretty sure no pro on the planet can say for sure what is in the scanning range or not when it happens, especially in the heat of a game.
Not being able to see the scan radius added absolutely nothing to the mechanics of the game (unlike auto-mining or the 1-button army selection), but it only added an element of "luck", "chance" or "hope" if you prefer, in the manner of "I hope he hasn't seen my dark shrine" or "I hope he hasn't seen my unit moving over there" in so many scenarios. Elements that add luck aren't skill based and aren't needed in SC2. As I mentioned above, you just can't be 100% sure where the scan ends, and that was always a big flaw about the spell.
That being said, I find the the way they addressed the issue was a bit too drastic. What I would have done would have been to increase the scan animation to fill the whole detection range. That way, you can basically tell what the scans see, but you don't have ugly "rough" borders like the sensor tower's vision that basically make no sense and pulls away a little bit of the game (if that makes any sense?)...
EDIT:
On September 06 2012 13:01 Energizer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 12:14 FabledIntegral wrote:
Blegh. Might as well show how far siege tanks can shoot then. You mean.. like a circle with the center being the seige tank that shows the range it can shoot? + Show Spoiler +Nahhh, thats going to far...
I don't think the opponent can see this radius; only the Terran player can. Only the sensor tower have this "mechanic" already implemented. You have the same range for the static defenses when you are placing them as well. According to your comparison, you say it like if the Terran player couldn't see how far his scan was able to see before, which is completely inaccurate. A player has always been able to see how far his own units are able to shoot; the problem here is about whether the opponent should be able to know exactly how far the scan can see.
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On September 06 2012 11:39 Scufo wrote:
I liked the uncertainty of the old scan.
When an Overlord enters your base and you kill it just in time that it doesn't see your stuff, there's a degree of uncertainty. Did it see or not? I don't see why scan can't be that way too. It's already a choice between a MULE and Scan, it SHOULD be powerful.
I think you figured out why I'm falling out of love with this game. It all started with the cancel animation...
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That's kinda cool, I like the idea a lot.
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On September 06 2012 12:03 Armada Vega wrote:
I disagree with this change and every bodies opinion on this matter so far. Zerg players and protoss players are cheering, while terrans are not. This change doesn't follow logic in my opinion, why is this applied to scans and not overlords and observers?.
-- What if terrans always new what overlords and observers saw and what they didn't see? How would everyone feel about this?
-- What if this followed logic and applied to all detectors? How would you feel if spore crawlers, overlords, overseers, observers and cannons now showed their radius, and the player would see the radius before they got in range of being detected. Now every player could always avoid everything, always.
If this change only effected terran scans, whats the reasoning behind it? A scan is a detection, why is there not a visible radius for all forms of detection?
-- You can pretty much estimate what observers and overseers see because they have normal vision range, the scan however reveals a much larger area than the graphic itself portrays. That makes it almost impossible to tell exactly how much a scan saw.
-- I can say almost the same thing to your second point, all the said units and structures have normal detection range, so you know what you can expect and putting a little dotted circle around every detector would be inconvenient and would probably be more harmful than helpful, the scan once again stands out, because it's used for much more than just a detector, neither is it a stationary constant unit or structure and the range it reveals is once again much different from the others.
Your comparisons aren't really comparable. Do you see the difference now?
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Just try leaving it in for 6 months and then take it out if it's still a problem just so people (everyone) get a better sense of what the range is. My sense of it is still terrible.
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+ Show Spoiler +On September 06 2012 13:02 PatouPower wrote:Well, this change was a bit retarded. There is no reason not to be able to know what has been scanned. I mean, for every unit, you can pretty much tell where their range ends and if they have or haven't seen your units. But that? Seriously, the scan animation is so small in comparison to the area, and only a small radius difference about what you think it sees and what it really sees can make a big difference on whether to stick with a strategy or not. I am not an expert on the subject, but I am pretty sure no pro on the planet can say for sure what is in the scanning range or not when it happens, especially in the heat of a game. Not being able to see the scan radius added absolutely nothing to the mechanics of the game (unlike auto-mining or the 1-button army selection), but it only added an element of "luck", "chance" or "hope" if you prefer, in the manner of "I hope he hasn't seen my dark shrine" or "I hope he hasn't seen my unit moving over there" in so many scenarios. Elements that add luck aren't skill based and aren't needed in SC2. As I mentioned above, you just can't be 100% sure where the scan ends, and that was always a big flaw about the spell. That being said, I find the the way they addressed the issue was a bit too drastic. What I would have done would have been to increase the scan animation to fill the whole detection range. That way, you can basically tell what the scans see, but you don't have ugly "rough" borders like the sensor tower's vision that basically make no sense and pulls away a little bit of the game (if that makes any sense?)... EDIT: On September 06 2012 13:01 Energizer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 12:14 FabledIntegral wrote:
Blegh. Might as well show how far siege tanks can shoot then. You mean.. like a circle with the center being the seige tank that shows the range it can shoot? + Show Spoiler +Nahhh, thats going to far... I don't think the opponent can see this radius; only the Terran player can. Only the sensor tower have this "mechanic" already implemented. You have the same range for the static defenses when you are placing them as well. According to your comparison, you say it like if the Terran player couldn't see how far his scan was able to see before, which is completely inaccurate. A player has always been able to see how far his own units are able to shoot; the problem here is about whether the opponent should be able to know exactly how far the scan can see.
You realize that you can just click on your enemy's tanks to see its range, right..?
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I don't understand the claims that the current, WoL scan is a coinflip, because it's really only partially a coinflip, and this is something I really like in the game. If you are familiar with the range on a scan by the animation, which you CAN be, considering that the scan is always the same size and your screen should always be at the same zoom distance, you should be able to use this knowledge to tell whether or not your hiding tech has been scouted. It only truly becomes a coinflip if the player is unfamiliar with scan range, and I would say that they deserve a coinflip for lack of game knowledge. Imagine if I sent an overlord over a proxy starport just finishing a banshee, and the game told me that a banshee was on the way, without me ever moving my screen over to the starport to see it or even glancing at the minimap to see the little red blip leave my vision. Obviously if I were a better player, I would have seen the banshee immediately, yes? But clearly I'm a casual nooby player and the designers for HotS think I need to be handed my information on a silver platter.
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I don't like it because it's one less thing to learn through practice. If anything it could be a nice addition to an observer only view point though!
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On September 06 2012 11:41 seansye wrote:
By the time Legacy of the Void comes out Starcraft will be Noobcraft.
This man knows.
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Yeah, I really don't like it as well. I shouldn't know what they were able to see. Takes away another small metric of skill, knowing whether or not he saw my Dark Shrine/robotics/etc. While we're at it, why don't we put a circle around the overlord's range, so when zerg sac's and ovi, we know whether or not he scouted that building just at the edge of his vision. Hell, we should make it so it shows whether or not he clicked on it to see what it was in time. That way we'll know exactly what he saw!
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On September 06 2012 13:43 Leyra wrote:
Yeah, I really don't like it as well. I shouldn't know what they were able to see. Takes away another small metric of skill, knowing whether or not he saw my Dark Shrine/robotics/etc. While we're at it, why don't we put a circle around the overlord's range, so when zerg sac's and ovi, we know whether or not he scouted that building just at the edge of his vision. Hell, we should make it so it shows whether or not he clicked on it to see what it was in time. That way we'll know exactly what he saw!
Lets just play with no fog of war, that will fix it! (sarcasm)
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On September 06 2012 13:21 xeqwist wrote:Show nested quote ++ Show Spoiler +On September 06 2012 13:02 PatouPower wrote:Well, this change was a bit retarded. There is no reason not to be able to know what has been scanned. I mean, for every unit, you can pretty much tell where their range ends and if they have or haven't seen your units. But that? Seriously, the scan animation is so small in comparison to the area, and only a small radius difference about what you think it sees and what it really sees can make a big difference on whether to stick with a strategy or not. I am not an expert on the subject, but I am pretty sure no pro on the planet can say for sure what is in the scanning range or not when it happens, especially in the heat of a game. Not being able to see the scan radius added absolutely nothing to the mechanics of the game (unlike auto-mining or the 1-button army selection), but it only added an element of "luck", "chance" or "hope" if you prefer, in the manner of "I hope he hasn't seen my dark shrine" or "I hope he hasn't seen my unit moving over there" in so many scenarios. Elements that add luck aren't skill based and aren't needed in SC2. As I mentioned above, you just can't be 100% sure where the scan ends, and that was always a big flaw about the spell. That being said, I find the the way they addressed the issue was a bit too drastic. What I would have done would have been to increase the scan animation to fill the whole detection range. That way, you can basically tell what the scans see, but you don't have ugly "rough" borders like the sensor tower's vision that basically make no sense and pulls away a little bit of the game (if that makes any sense?)... EDIT: On September 06 2012 13:01 Energizer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 12:14 FabledIntegral wrote:
Blegh. Might as well show how far siege tanks can shoot then. You mean.. like a circle with the center being the seige tank that shows the range it can shoot? + Show Spoiler +Nahhh, thats going to far... I don't think the opponent can see this radius; only the Terran player can. Only the sensor tower have this "mechanic" already implemented. You have the same range for the static defenses when you are placing them as well. According to your comparison, you say it like if the Terran player couldn't see how far his scan was able to see before, which is completely inaccurate. A player has always been able to see how far his own units are able to shoot; the problem here is about whether the opponent should be able to know exactly how far the scan can see. You realize that you can just click on your enemy's tanks to see its range, right..?
Another winner! No you can only see your tank range. Or as an observer from 'everyone' perspective, you can see both. Nice sarcasm though! This thread is like a magnet for completely baseless statements about sc2.
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On September 06 2012 12:57 Patate wrote:
Ugh.. Blizzard should use HoTS to actually raise the skill ceiling, not decrease it.
This game shouldn't be about build orders, it should be about reactions, knowledge and ESPECIALLY mechanics.
These fancy new user friendly things are TOTALLY NEEDED in the game from a spectator standpoint.
SC2 needs to compete with DOTA2 which is just mind boggingly powerful as an esports game, as much as I don't like it, it's true.
We need the newbies to feel welcome to SC2 so they will one day evolve into pros.
Maybe this option should be disabled at grand master level or higher? (the scan)
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On September 06 2012 14:26 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 12:57 Patate wrote:
Ugh.. Blizzard should use HoTS to actually raise the skill ceiling, not decrease it.
This game shouldn't be about build orders, it should be about reactions, knowledge and ESPECIALLY mechanics.
These fancy new user friendly things are TOTALLY NEEDED in the game from a spectator standpoint. SC2 needs to compete with DOTA2 which is just mind boggingly powerful as an esports game, as much as I don't like it, it's true. We need the newbies to feel welcome to SC2 so they will one day evolve into pros. Maybe this option should be disabled at grand master level or higher? (the scan)
Maybe on the no-rush practice league..
People will want to grind the fuck out of a game that they love to watch. Being easy or not does influence it, but it's not the most important factor.
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I love it as a spectator.
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Protosses and Zergs here are complaining about not being able to know how much a scan revealed. Do terrans know how much vision overlords and observers have? Probably just a rough estimate. If you didn't know, scan vision radii don't change. Maybe if you take that small effort by playing Terran in single player to figure out the range, you will know the radius and make you a better player with better game sense? Just my thoughts. I believe all small things pile up in the end.
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On September 06 2012 14:26 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 12:57 Patate wrote:
Ugh.. Blizzard should use HoTS to actually raise the skill ceiling, not decrease it.
This game shouldn't be about build orders, it should be about reactions, knowledge and ESPECIALLY mechanics.
These fancy new user friendly things are TOTALLY NEEDED in the game from a spectator standpoint. SC2 needs to compete with DOTA2 which is just mind boggingly powerful as an esports game, as much as I don't like it, it's true. We need the newbies to feel welcome to SC2 so they will one day evolve into pros. Maybe this option should be disabled at grand master level or higher? (the scan)
There are so many bad statements in here.
For one thing, SC2 is a much easier game to follow than Dota if you don't know anything about either game. And while SC2 and Dota are both esports, in many respects they are not fighting over the same audience. Watching esports isn't mutually exclusive by any stretch, and people will want to watch whichever game appeals to them more. No small UI change that blizzard makes now is going to make any difference in that.
Dota as a game relies more on execution than SC2 does, in a sense. One teamfight can turn an almost lost game around, and 2 can even totally turn the game around, and the abilities are innately exciting in the game. In SC2, however, the game is more about information (note that both of these are important in both games, information is especially important in dota, please buy wards guys) and while giving that information to people studying replays will be greatly beneficial, from a spectator standpoint, we should be receiving less info. This is why many people would describe SC2 as a game with the strategy of chess and the information of poker. It created so much tension for me to see flash's scv in BW going across the map to scout a proxy in a ridiculous location, and in that time I'm just thinking that he's never going to see it, because the audience doesn't know where the scv is going to go until it gets there. In SC2 this tension will never exist because observers get to see the queued commands of scouts, so I'll know immediately whether or not he'll se it and the tension buildup just won't occur. So if the appeal of the game is about incomplete information, giving spectators more information would be counterproductive. Once again, in replays this stuff is gold, and can give you a lot of information about scout patterns, scan placements, and the like. And while that's all fine and dandy for people trying to learn from a game, it certainly makes watching a tournament less exciting.
Any player that wouldn't pick up this game because there wasn't a circle around the scan radius, any player so casual that the game as it is today doesn't appeal to them at all, will never be a pro player. They probably don't want to be a pro player, they probably don't like the game in the first place. Appealing to the casuals might be good for blizzard's profits, but in no way is it at all good for the pro scene.
The whole point of a competitive game is that you always start on the same playing field. Removing features for players once they've proven that they have some worth is a terrible idea.
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