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Hello TL, My apologies if this is too minor for a thread or if there already is a thread on this feature.
I'll keep it short and sweet. In the HOTS beta, I watched WhiteRa warping in DTs to harass qxc's mineral line just now. As you can see in the screenshot below, WhiteRa was able to see the radius of qxc's scans. This directly contributed to him warping in his next DT just outside the radius of the last scan, possibly saving this DT.
It also will more or less let you know what tech structures have been scanned, and allow cloaked units to get away from scans slightly more easily for those players who are not super gosu at knowing where the range of the scan ends. Like I said, its pretty minor, but there are a ton of these minor "features" in HOTS.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CAaiB.png)
On September 07 2012 05:16 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 04:53 SgtCoDFish wrote:On September 07 2012 04:39 Moonsalt wrote:On September 06 2012 11:38 dabom88 wrote:
You can't see how far the detection radius is for Missile Turrets, Spore Crawlers, Photon Cannons, Ravens, Overseers, or Observers.
Why do you get to see the detection radius for scans? I totally agree. 1) You can have many of these detectors, meaning there could be a lot of ugly lines everywhere, and they don't disappear after a set amount of time like scans do. 2) Scan is a scouting tool as well as a detector, and that's where this is most important. You know if your cloaked unit is detected (by scan or other detector) because things start shooting it. That's a normal interaction between units and is a gameplay thing. The scan texture not being as big as the sight given is a graphical/ui issue that adds uncertainty into the game. 3) Uncertainty isn't skill. The skill in reacting to a scan of your important tech structure comes from the decision of whether or not changing your tech would be wise and in knowing your opponent's likely reactions to what he saw. If you don't know if he saw it or not, it's a coinflippy clusterfuck. Starcraft thrives on vagueness. It's one of the reasons why Brood War was superior to Wings of Liberty, it's because people begged long and hard to make the game more about 'strategy', so all the really difficult mechanics were addressed. Heart of the Swarm simply takes this one step further, information is more clearly defined, easier to understand and utilize. From now on you do not have to get a feel for saturation numbers of for detection radius anymore. Blizzard now provides this information as input for your strategy. The problem is that strategy is rather boring. If you look at your typical game, then honestly most players play the same popular builds over and over again, since it's so easy to copy what successful players are doing. A lot of match-ups are quite trivial, especially zerg often 'just' has to turtle into brood lords and all the fuzzy feelings-based aspects to this game that allow players with superior game sense to do well are one by one eliminated just so that eventually everyone can execute the same rote strategy at the same level. I honestly think it's bizarre the community is still so obsessed with strategy, it's as if so many have so little respect for all the beauty inherent to paying attention to all the small little details and utilizing them correctly. There is so much more to this game than just strategy and unit control, it really is so much about a certain mystique where frequently you have no solid information and have to depend on visual processing or pattern recognition (i.e. game sense or 'feel'). Making everything clear and streamlined honestly won't make the game any more fun, it will just allow you to better execute your 2 base timing attacks without being bothered by the fact you have little experience with the game and lack essential cognitive skills. Imagine if during the development of DOTA2 Valve had decided that the game really needed to be about picking hero compositions, item choices and lane divisions. They could remove all skill-intensive abilities of the game (last kills, denying, aimed shots) so that it would again be more about strategy, all to reward the smarter player. But why is someone with knowledge and analytical skills superior to someone with the superior cognitive abilities required to excel at unit control and economy management?
Well said.
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Also tumors are nerfed a bit because of the animation. Before it was instant now it takes a bit longer to go down. Not huge but still a minor nerf.
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I actually like this quite a lot. There really is no reason not to be able to tell how far the scan can see. But I feel like the decals forming the circle are a little ugly.
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I'm a Protoss player and I hate this change. It didn't need to happen and it's just one more thing to add to the easierness? of the game.
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This is one of the few changes that I like (as opposed to auto mine, worker count, and pylon warp in change. Those are absolute shit!) This change should actually add to the spectator value and create more suspense. Before it was really hard to tell whether or not something was actually scanned or not, and now you can clearly see it. Should create for some interesting scenarios when a tech structure is just barely out of scan range or cloak units barely escape scan radius too 
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I like the change. Before there was a degree of guessing whether the scan saw your stuff or not, now you know for sure.
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Yea i think this is really dumb.. i mean we're lucky enough to see the big circle that tells theres a scan but now they have to go ahead and tell us EXACTLY how far they can see? ... why?
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how fucking stupid, it doesn't add anything to spectators becasue you simply can see what they saw via the fog after it finished scanning... This removes "suspsense" from the game "DID HE SEE THE DARK SHRINE, OMG OMG OMG" while the scans going, and the protoss gets to go "HOLY SHIT DID HE SEE MY DT" now it's "oh he didn't see it, damn... *snaps fingers*"
woohoo lets trash this game, the games not suppose to be "I see everything, I do everything, I get everything, the game helps me with everything" ...
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Yeah, I think this is actually a good change. It's pretty important to know what your opponent has seen with a scan.
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From a watching games point of view. I love this change. Its always hard to know what the range is on a scan when watching streams/casts.
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I dont like this change as Terran point of view. Like during ingame when I scan and saw a little tip of dark shrine I would immediately build turret to protect my base, now Toss can fuck that and expand while I turtle waiting for DT to come out -.-
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I like it. It's closer to how it worked in BW too. Don't like the line thingy tho. Maybe instead of that dashed line, they could just extend the existing scan circle animation to a much bigger radius, while reducing it's opaqueness a bit. It would look less artificial that way.
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If this were a spectator only thing I could get behind it, but not as a player...
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I like it. If blizzard just made the sweeping animation as big as the area that the terran was actually seeing it'd be nice too. It's stupid to have an animation that's smaller than what he's actually seeing.
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People are driving me crazy with their "it makes the game easier" mantra. This is just good for graphical consistency. I'd prefer Blizzard make the game harder in other areas (units with more micro potential)
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On September 06 2012 11:33 Infernal_dream wrote:
I like it. If blizzard just made the sweeping animation as big as the area that the terran was actually seeing it'd be nice too. It's stupid to have an animation that's smaller than what he's actually seeing.
A bigger problem is the effect 3D has on it. Because the animation is above the ground the scan swirl doesn't appear to be over the centre of the area revealed.
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You can't see how far the detection radius is for Missile Turrets, Spore Crawlers, Photon Cannons, Ravens, Overseers, or Observers.
Why do you get to see the detection radius for scans?
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I liked the uncertainty of the old scan.
When an Overlord enters your base and you kill it just in time that it doesn't see your stuff, there's a degree of uncertainty. Did it see or not? I don't see why scan can't be that way too. It's already a choice between a MULE and Scan, it SHOULD be powerful.
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This ruins the suspense of a game. There's lots of times when I'm playing TvT or PvT where I'll hide crucial tech in a corner of my base and then my opponent scans, and I have to quickly decide whether he scouted this or not. In the same way, this also applies to my opponents going into panic mode for me. There are plenty of times where a Terran will scan, and then all the caster needs to do is press either 1 or 2 to figure out if he saw the tech or not.
Same thing with ovies, and sniped observers.
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On September 06 2012 11:38 dabom88 wrote:
You can't see how far the detection radius is for Missile Turrets, Spore Crawlers, Photon Cannons, Ravens, Overseers, or Observers.
Why do you get to see the detection radius for scans?
Because it's pretty obvious when your cloaked unit gets attacked in range of a detector. It's not so obvious if you should abandon your strategy when the scan caught the edge and you are not sure if they saw whatever it was you are trying to hide.
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By the time Legacy of the Void comes out Starcraft will be Noobcraft.
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I really like it. This is a "serious" strategy game and strategy games should involve less luck elements. Proxy buildings are ok. Its a suprise element.
SC2 should be a decision making game not coin flip game. There is already dozens of build order wins. 1 less luck element is always better.
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On September 06 2012 11:26 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
how fucking stupid, it doesn't add anything to spectators becasue you simply can see what they saw via the fog after it finished scanning... This removes "suspsense" from the game "DID HE SEE THE DARK SHRINE, OMG OMG OMG" while the scans going, and the protoss gets to go "HOLY SHIT DID HE SEE MY DT" now it's "oh he didn't see it, damn... *snaps fingers*"
woohoo lets trash this game, the games not suppose to be "I see everything, I do everything, I get everything, the game helps me with everything" ...
If this how you react to scans, then I can't imagine how you react to everything else in the game.
EDIT: I think you can argue the other wise of the story also where now everyone can see the finite line. It creates a better suspense when the DT is trying to escape the scan range and everyone is holding their breath for the DT to pass the line where as previously there's a few seconds of unknown before it's confirmed that the scan can't see the DT. I'm not trying to promote the game to become easier, but something like this is fine with me.
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I think Blizzard did this, for the spectator value. Any person new to SC2's eSports scene or is (usually) Gold and under don't know this kind of stuff. So when there is like MLG or Dreamhack or NASL, the viewers will be able to know how large the scan radius is.
Also, it adds a little bit more intensity; say there is a single DT about to die, running to get out of the scan radius. If he is nearing the border but the Terran stims his bio, it makes the viewer be like "OMG WHATS GONNA HAPPEN".
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Another minor feature to dumb the game down, little by little.
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On September 06 2012 11:34 acrimoneyius wrote:
People are driving me crazy with their "it makes the game easier" mantra. This is just good for graphical consistency. I'd prefer Blizzard make the game harder in other areas (units with more micro potential)
Quoted for winning the truth.
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On September 06 2012 11:45 cHaNg-sTa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 11:26 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
how fucking stupid, it doesn't add anything to spectators becasue you simply can see what they saw via the fog after it finished scanning... This removes "suspsense" from the game "DID HE SEE THE DARK SHRINE, OMG OMG OMG" while the scans going, and the protoss gets to go "HOLY SHIT DID HE SEE MY DT" now it's "oh he didn't see it, damn... *snaps fingers*"
woohoo lets trash this game, the games not suppose to be "I see everything, I do everything, I get everything, the game helps me with everything" ... If this how you react to scans, then I can't imagine how you react to everything else in the game.
Very poorly actually ... Everything just is adding nothing and creating a non-interesting "this goes to this and this and this and the game ends" kind of game...
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On September 06 2012 11:22 Brutaxilos wrote:
I actually like this quite a lot. There really is no reason not to be able to tell how far the scan can see. But I feel like the decals forming the circle are a little ugly.
It's called skill. The less automated stuff and display stuff the easier it is for players to win by luck and chance. Now burrowed roach and other invisible stuff can easily go around.
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This is really good stuff. As a person who uses a lot of cloak units, it is essential to maximize my damage done to the opponent. Therefore, any sort of relevant cloaked units should show the limit for the opponent. This makes the game more challenging and micro-intensive for the player. Contrary to what people had said of how this would "simplify" the game, this would make it more challenging and rewarding.
Let the DTs, Cloak Banshees, and Cloaked Ghosts, as well as Protoss's observer realm supreme.
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On September 06 2012 11:48 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 11:34 acrimoneyius wrote:
People are driving me crazy with their "it makes the game easier" mantra. This is just good for graphical consistency. I'd prefer Blizzard make the game harder in other areas (units with more micro potential) Quoted for winning the truth.
Being able to tell where your opponent has vision is a pretty big deal, it also removes suspense... More data = easier.
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One day, and the boards are already spammed with "Things are changing, the world is coming to an end!"
It's going to be a very, very long beta...
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On September 06 2012 11:26 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
how fucking stupid, it doesn't add anything to spectators becasue you simply can see what they saw via the fog after it finished scanning... This removes "suspsense" from the game "DID HE SEE THE DARK SHRINE, OMG OMG OMG" while the scans going, and the protoss gets to go "HOLY SHIT DID HE SEE MY DT" now it's "oh he didn't see it, damn... *snaps fingers*"
woohoo lets trash this game, the games not suppose to be "I see everything, I do everything, I get everything, the game helps me with everything" ...
This hurts my head so much, jesus. People just can't be this stupid.
The fact that you can see allows you to make an informed decision that requires skill. Not knowing is the equivalent to rolling the dice/a guessing game. You could argue it adds suspense, but you could say the same thing for proxy BBS and tons of other things that are terrible for the game. It doesn't make it any easier, because if you aren't good at the game you can't make an informed decision that would utilize that as an advantage.
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i don't get why people are bull shiting about the auto mine. Seriously if you want a harder game ask for a manually put worker to mine change just like we had in BW...yeah i didn't think so, see my point?
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It removes some mystery and excitement from playing the game. Imo, competitive games like this should not be about definite yes/no things, but about 'feel'.
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On September 06 2012 11:22 FataLe wrote:I'm a Protoss player and I hate this change. It didn't need to happen and it's just one more thing to add to the easierness? of the game.
Your complaining about something that only helps you? Seems strange. Blizzard hates Terran it seems lol where are the buffs xD.
But in all real honestly this is a great change. Just these minor things make it such a better get IMO/.
@JKI if you want a harder game to play just play Brood War 
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It was bad user interface for players not to see the scan but not know whether or not it caught a key tech structure. There's no reason to make an ability less than 100% clear in its in-game effect. This is a clear improvement, and will take guess-work out of the game.
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Any change that improves the pro's ability to make appropriate decisions based on what he sees is good in my books. The scan range is far too large to guesstimate whether your units or buildings were in range, so there were bound to be mistakes made by pros in whether the enemy saw their buildings/units or not, and consequently how they should react. By knowing for sure whether or not the opponent is able to see certain units or buildings, pros will be able to confidently adapt their builds if something that shouldn't be have been seen gets spotted. So I'm all for it as it heightens the skill ceiling.
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I disagree with this change and every bodies opinion on this matter so far. Zerg players and protoss players are cheering, while terrans are not. This change doesn't follow logic in my opinion, why is this applied to scans and not overlords and observers?.
-- What if terrans always new what overlords and observers saw and what they didn't see? How would everyone feel about this?
-- What if this followed logic and applied to all detectors? How would you feel if spore crawlers, overlords, overseers, observers and cannons now showed their radius, and the player would see the radius before they got in range of being detected. Now every player could always avoid everything, always.
If this change only effected terran scans, whats the reasoning behind it? A scan is a detection, why is there not a visible radius for all forms of detection?
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On September 06 2012 11:56 Skwid1g wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 11:26 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
how fucking stupid, it doesn't add anything to spectators becasue you simply can see what they saw via the fog after it finished scanning... This removes "suspsense" from the game "DID HE SEE THE DARK SHRINE, OMG OMG OMG" while the scans going, and the protoss gets to go "HOLY SHIT DID HE SEE MY DT" now it's "oh he didn't see it, damn... *snaps fingers*"
woohoo lets trash this game, the games not suppose to be "I see everything, I do everything, I get everything, the game helps me with everything" ... This hurts my head so much, jesus. People just can't be this stupid. The fact that you can see allows you to make an informed decision that requires skill. Not knowing is the equivalent to rolling the dice/a guessing game. You could argue it adds suspense, but you could say the same thing for proxy BBS and tons of other things that are terrible for the game. It doesn't make it any easier, because if you aren't good at the game you can't make an informed decision that would utilize that as an advantage.
So calculating scan radius doesnt take skills at all? It does make it easier because you have to actually think and approximate where the scan had hit. But since they included this feature, it does the thinking for you.
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On September 06 2012 12:01 BWalma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 11:22 FataLe wrote:I'm a Protoss player and I hate this change. It didn't need to happen and it's just one more thing to add to the easierness? of the game. Your complaining about something that only helps you? Seems strange. Blizzard hates Terran it seems lol where are the buffs xD. But in all real honestly this is a great change. Just these minor things make it such a better get IMO/. @JKI if you want a harder game to play just play Brood War
i don't want a harder game. I actually like the changes made, as it gives us better time to think on things that matter such as macro, strategy, and general game plan. It sounds like you haven't even read my post properly...
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Not that big a deal, but does take away a lot of the tension and suspense both from the spectator's and player's perspectives.
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i don't get why people are bull shiting about the auto mine.
Seriously if you want a harder game ask for a manually put worker to mine change just like we had in BW...
yeah i didn't think so, see my point?
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On September 06 2012 12:03 jidolboy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 11:56 Skwid1g wrote:On September 06 2012 11:26 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
how fucking stupid, it doesn't add anything to spectators becasue you simply can see what they saw via the fog after it finished scanning... This removes "suspsense" from the game "DID HE SEE THE DARK SHRINE, OMG OMG OMG" while the scans going, and the protoss gets to go "HOLY SHIT DID HE SEE MY DT" now it's "oh he didn't see it, damn... *snaps fingers*"
woohoo lets trash this game, the games not suppose to be "I see everything, I do everything, I get everything, the game helps me with everything" ... This hurts my head so much, jesus. People just can't be this stupid. The fact that you can see allows you to make an informed decision that requires skill. Not knowing is the equivalent to rolling the dice/a guessing game. You could argue it adds suspense, but you could say the same thing for proxy BBS and tons of other things that are terrible for the game. It doesn't make it any easier, because if you aren't good at the game you can't make an informed decision that would utilize that as an advantage. So calculating scan radius doesnt take skills at all? It does make it easier because you have to actually think and approximate where the scan had hit. But since they included this feature, it does the thinking for you.
This word is the biggest problem here, when you consider that what a single scan sees can be game changing, making a player 'approximate' whether it is in or not is simply not good enough. Think about tennis and how they have machines to see whether the ball was in the line or not, they are there to increase the accuracy of the game because the referee's approximation isn't good enough in such high stakes games.
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I like it. I think that if you get scanned, you should be able to know what was seen and what wasn't. You could say that the old way allowed that too, you just had to extrapolate out from the animation. That's true. But unless you play terran fairly consistently you don't really get a feel for how big the radius is.
As a spectator it doesn't really change things. Whenever there's a 'did he see building X?' question, the casters and/or observer will tell you almost immediately by checking the vision anyway.
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On September 06 2012 11:42 Aceace wrote:
I really like it. This is a "serious" strategy game and strategy games should involve less luck elements. Proxy buildings are ok. Its a suprise element.
SC2 should be a decision making game not coin flip game. There is already dozens of build order wins. 1 less luck element is always better.
It's not luck. The scan has a set range. Knowing the vision of a scan is skill.
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Fantastic. Let's do the same with overlord vision too so we always know if they managed to scout something we were trying to hide.
Actually, let's do this with every air unit just to be safe. And workers too because they also scout.
You know what? Fuck it, dotted circles for every unit. Heaven forbid we have games with tension and uncertainty.
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On September 06 2012 11:38 dabom88 wrote:
You can't see how far the detection radius is for Missile Turrets, Spore Crawlers, Photon Cannons, Ravens, Overseers, or Observers.
Why do you get to see the detection radius for scans?
this one. you should learn as a player the detection range of everything
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Blegh. Might as well show how far siege tanks can shoot then.
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On September 06 2012 12:08 XenoX101 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 12:03 jidolboy wrote:On September 06 2012 11:56 Skwid1g wrote:On September 06 2012 11:26 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
how fucking stupid, it doesn't add anything to spectators becasue you simply can see what they saw via the fog after it finished scanning... This removes "suspsense" from the game "DID HE SEE THE DARK SHRINE, OMG OMG OMG" while the scans going, and the protoss gets to go "HOLY SHIT DID HE SEE MY DT" now it's "oh he didn't see it, damn... *snaps fingers*"
woohoo lets trash this game, the games not suppose to be "I see everything, I do everything, I get everything, the game helps me with everything" ... This hurts my head so much, jesus. People just can't be this stupid. The fact that you can see allows you to make an informed decision that requires skill. Not knowing is the equivalent to rolling the dice/a guessing game. You could argue it adds suspense, but you could say the same thing for proxy BBS and tons of other things that are terrible for the game. It doesn't make it any easier, because if you aren't good at the game you can't make an informed decision that would utilize that as an advantage. So calculating scan radius doesnt take skills at all? It does make it easier because you have to actually think and approximate where the scan had hit. But since they included this feature, it does the thinking for you. This word is the biggest problem here, when you consider that what a single scan sees can be game changing, making a player 'approximate' whether it is in or not is simply not good enough. Think about tennis and how they have machines to see whether the ball was in the line or not, they are there to increase the accuracy of the game because the referee's approximation isn't good enough in such high stakes games.
Do you play tennis? Because your analogy is really really bad. (for the record I'm awful at it and mostly hit them outside the court like a douche)
The accurate analogy is that now rather than a player estimating whether the ball lands in play or not, the tennis player knows specifically if it is in play, or is not in play. This is actually a pretty big skill, and you see players at various levels go after balls they shouldn't or don't go after balls they should. Due to having to judge angles, trajectories, etc. (well, not really etcetera, just those two things)
What you're trying to claim is some non-existent situation where the players would continue playing ambiguous as to whether or not the ball was in play, only to be later determined by some judge, which is wholly inaccurate.
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you know that it only shows the circle right in the moment of the scan, right?
its not shown afer the scan was done, so its not really a big deal i guess
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On September 06 2012 12:08 XenoX101 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 12:03 jidolboy wrote:On September 06 2012 11:56 Skwid1g wrote:On September 06 2012 11:26 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
how fucking stupid, it doesn't add anything to spectators becasue you simply can see what they saw via the fog after it finished scanning... This removes "suspsense" from the game "DID HE SEE THE DARK SHRINE, OMG OMG OMG" while the scans going, and the protoss gets to go "HOLY SHIT DID HE SEE MY DT" now it's "oh he didn't see it, damn... *snaps fingers*"
woohoo lets trash this game, the games not suppose to be "I see everything, I do everything, I get everything, the game helps me with everything" ... This hurts my head so much, jesus. People just can't be this stupid. The fact that you can see allows you to make an informed decision that requires skill. Not knowing is the equivalent to rolling the dice/a guessing game. You could argue it adds suspense, but you could say the same thing for proxy BBS and tons of other things that are terrible for the game. It doesn't make it any easier, because if you aren't good at the game you can't make an informed decision that would utilize that as an advantage. So calculating scan radius doesnt take skills at all? It does make it easier because you have to actually think and approximate where the scan had hit. But since they included this feature, it does the thinking for you. This word is the biggest problem here, when you consider that what a single scan sees can be game changing, making a player 'approximate' whether it is in or not is simply not good enough. Think about tennis and how they have machines to see whether the ball was in the line or not, they are there to increase the accuracy of the game because the referee's approximation isn't good enough in such high stakes games.
And not all tennis tournaments use Hawkeye (or its equivalent). I'm only diamond, i play terran and I know exactly how big that scan radius is without the help 99% of the time. I would make a rather sizeable bet that 99% of pros know how big the scan radius is too and know whether they got spotted or not.
All this does is 1) Make it easier to warp in DT's or other units just outside scan range or skate around the edge with roaches etc 2) let lower level players not have to learn how big scan radius is. basically it is helping both pros and non pros have an easier time.
All these little changes just make for a simpler game, a simpler game generally makes for less excitement. Can you imagine 100k people watching an Angry birds tourney? I certainly can't. Angry birds is a great game but is very simple for anyone with a bit of physics knowledge and some time on their hands. Spectators should be able to see the scan radius perfectly and how many workers are on a patch but all these little things just take another skill out of the game, one less thing to learn and worry about and thats not always a good thing.
Some of the changes make no difference, like the workers auto mining but some others are actually lowering the skill ceiling.
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and honestly, I don't even see why the opponent should know they were scanned at all, let alone the details of it.
and two things, i'm awful, and I don't play terran. so i'm not saying this because i want the buff or i'm so good, it wouldn't benfit me.
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For observing, it makes sense. For playing, it absolutely does not.
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On September 06 2012 12:08 XenoX101 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 12:03 jidolboy wrote:On September 06 2012 11:56 Skwid1g wrote:On September 06 2012 11:26 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
how fucking stupid, it doesn't add anything to spectators becasue you simply can see what they saw via the fog after it finished scanning... This removes "suspsense" from the game "DID HE SEE THE DARK SHRINE, OMG OMG OMG" while the scans going, and the protoss gets to go "HOLY SHIT DID HE SEE MY DT" now it's "oh he didn't see it, damn... *snaps fingers*"
woohoo lets trash this game, the games not suppose to be "I see everything, I do everything, I get everything, the game helps me with everything" ... This hurts my head so much, jesus. People just can't be this stupid. The fact that you can see allows you to make an informed decision that requires skill. Not knowing is the equivalent to rolling the dice/a guessing game. You could argue it adds suspense, but you could say the same thing for proxy BBS and tons of other things that are terrible for the game. It doesn't make it any easier, because if you aren't good at the game you can't make an informed decision that would utilize that as an advantage. So calculating scan radius doesnt take skills at all? It does make it easier because you have to actually think and approximate where the scan had hit. But since they included this feature, it does the thinking for you. This word is the biggest problem here, when you consider that what a single scan sees can be game changing, making a player 'approximate' whether it is in or not is simply not good enough. Think about tennis and how they have machines to see whether the ball was in the line or not, they are there to increase the accuracy of the game because the referee's approximation isn't good enough in such high stakes games.
The Hawkeye line technology isn't really a relevant comparison though. That's technically reviewing a point that's already been played out to see who won. A better analogy would be if they invented a device that is attached to your racket that pre-calculates the ball's trajectory and warns you if your opponent's ball is about to land outside the line. This would help you in the MIDDLE of the point and you wouldn't have to run after balls that you knew were going to land out, whereas you currently have to run after and play out all uncertain shots hit by your opponent because you don't know for sure whether or not the ball will land in.
edit Oops, I guess someone else already pointed out how bad an analogy you made.
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On September 06 2012 12:08 XenoX101 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 12:03 jidolboy wrote:On September 06 2012 11:56 Skwid1g wrote:On September 06 2012 11:26 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
how fucking stupid, it doesn't add anything to spectators becasue you simply can see what they saw via the fog after it finished scanning... This removes "suspsense" from the game "DID HE SEE THE DARK SHRINE, OMG OMG OMG" while the scans going, and the protoss gets to go "HOLY SHIT DID HE SEE MY DT" now it's "oh he didn't see it, damn... *snaps fingers*"
woohoo lets trash this game, the games not suppose to be "I see everything, I do everything, I get everything, the game helps me with everything" ... This hurts my head so much, jesus. People just can't be this stupid. The fact that you can see allows you to make an informed decision that requires skill. Not knowing is the equivalent to rolling the dice/a guessing game. You could argue it adds suspense, but you could say the same thing for proxy BBS and tons of other things that are terrible for the game. It doesn't make it any easier, because if you aren't good at the game you can't make an informed decision that would utilize that as an advantage. So calculating scan radius doesnt take skills at all? It does make it easier because you have to actually think and approximate where the scan had hit. But since they included this feature, it does the thinking for you. This word is the biggest problem here, when you consider that what a single scan sees can be game changing, making a player 'approximate' whether it is in or not is simply not good enough. Think about tennis and how they have machines to see whether the ball was in the line or not, they are there to increase the accuracy of the game because the referee's approximation isn't good enough in such high stakes games.
Umm. Just no.... Why must one calculating scan range not good enough? This is game of strategies where luck plays a role. According to your logic, should we not remove Fog of War since approximately guessing other players build is simply "not good enough"?.
+Also what others said. Why isnt there a turrent range ring so that the observer can safely go in without getting hit -.- This will surely be less "dice rolling" apparently
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On September 06 2012 11:38 dabom88 wrote:
You can't see how far the detection radius is for Missile Turrets, Spore Crawlers, Photon Cannons, Ravens, Overseers, or Observers.
Why do you get to see the detection radius for scans?
Yep. This. Not much else to say. This is another one of those "lets make the game so easy a caveman could do it" type change from Blizzard.
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I hate this change! Why does blizz keep making the game easier, Also I think that players should be able to estimate the scan radius. It is part of the fun to train your star sense. And this completely hinder that.
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for casting is fine. but gameplay. looks ugly also makes it too easy.
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Russian Federation484 Posts
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posting against this change in TL.net isnt going to help. If we want certain things not to be changed we need to come together and let blizzard know we fucking dont like shit like this in the battle.net forums. When the beta has been out much longer, it may be easier to simply gather all the things we dont like and collectively vote against it, blizzard usually listens
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On September 06 2012 12:27 recklessfire wrote:
posting against this change in TL.net isnt going to help. If we want certain things not to be changed we need to come together and let blizzard know we fucking dont like shit like this in the battle.net forums. When the beta has been out much longer, it may be easier to simply gather all the things we dont like and collectively vote against it, blizzard usually rarely listens
Fixed that for you.
I like the idea of pooling all the complaints into one central spot though.
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I think this is a good change, it makes the game have less uncertainty, it doesn't make the game easier, or lower the skill ceiling, it just makes it so people can actually play knowing whether or not the scan saw shit or not.
It's incredible how so many people just hate every change blizzard makes to the game, just because it's not what they are used to... *sigh*
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On September 06 2012 12:32 xeqwist wrote:
I think this is a good change, it makes the game have less uncertainty, it doesn't make the game easier, or lower the skill ceiling, it just makes it so people can actually play knowing whether or not the scan saw shit or not.
It's incredible how so many people just hate every change blizzard makes to the game, just because it's not what they are used to... *sigh*
So why not display the ranges of all units? Why not display the range that overlords, observers, turrets and spore crawlers can see? Why not show how far workers can see when they scout?
Why are we only showing how much Terran can see?
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They need an animation that looks less ugly. That thing looks hideous.
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On September 06 2012 12:34 NKexquisite wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 12:32 xeqwist wrote:
I think this is a good change, it makes the game have less uncertainty, it doesn't make the game easier, or lower the skill ceiling, it just makes it so people can actually play knowing whether or not the scan saw shit or not.
It's incredible how so many people just hate every change blizzard makes to the game, just because it's not what they are used to... *sigh* So why not display the ranges of all units? Why not display the range that overlords, observers, turrets and spore crawlers can see? Why not show how far workers can see when they scout? Why are we only showing how much Terran can see?
One of these things is not like the others. Seriously. Scan is an instant, area-of-effect, undeniable scout. I think they are pretty good reasons why it's a special case.
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Bad for the players, bad for the spectators. For the players, the element of surprise is gone. For the spectators, the element of suspense is gone. How many times have we seen it in the GSL where a player barely sees or misses on a scan, making the obs toggle between the players view?
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Finally! Been waiting for this change since WoL release when I switched from terran, unbelieveable it took them that long to fix this, the animation was never a good indication of how large it was and made a lot of scans like throwing dice.
For people that are against this, I suppose you would LOVE if we added a coin toss in the start, and whoever won it gets to start playing 10 seconds earlier than the other person, you know because that adds suspense and what other stupid things I have heard.
Why people want coin toss in this game is beyond me, they made a great game called WC3 for people that love coin toss scenarios.
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On September 06 2012 12:34 NKexquisite wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 12:32 xeqwist wrote:
I think this is a good change, it makes the game have less uncertainty, it doesn't make the game easier, or lower the skill ceiling, it just makes it so people can actually play knowing whether or not the scan saw shit or not.
It's incredible how so many people just hate every change blizzard makes to the game, just because it's not what they are used to... *sigh* So why not display the ranges of all units? Why not display the range that overlords, observers, turrets and spore crawlers can see? Why not show how far workers can see when they scout? Why are we only showing how much Terran can see?
People keep saying that we should put a visible range radius on all other things, but I think the key distinction is that a scan is the only one of the detectors that you can summon anywhere on the map, irrespective of defences, vision or anything.
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As a protoss, this obviously helps me. But I don't like the change.
If myself or a pro gamer (or any average player) gets scanned, but we're not 100% positive whether the terran saw a key tech structure, we might make an adjustment in our strategy. This adds an elements of guesswork sometimes, but I don't think it's a bad thing.
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On September 06 2012 11:19 TheFish7 wrote:Hello TL, My apologies if this is too minor for a thread or if there already is a thread on this feature. I'll keep it short and sweet. In the HOTS beta, I watched WhiteRa warping in DTs to harass qxc's mineral line just now. As you can see in the screenshot below, WhiteRa was able to see the radius of qxc's scans. This directly contributed to him warping in his next DT just outside the radius of the last scan, possibly saving this DT. It also will more or less let you know what tech structures have been scanned, and allow cloaked units to get away from scans slightly more easily for those players who are not super gosu at knowing where the range of the scan ends. Like I said, its pretty minor, but there are a ton of these minor "features" in HOTS.
I would like to say THANK YOU to Blizzard - this is a decent, smart feature - totally makes sense.
I've always loathed the scan range in WoL - it's so ridiculously obscenely wide and lasts so goddamn long so this is a welcome improvement.
EDIT: I'm a Protoss player, with a chip on my shoulder for scan range / duration!
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On September 06 2012 12:43 BoxingKangaroo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 12:34 NKexquisite wrote:On September 06 2012 12:32 xeqwist wrote:
I think this is a good change, it makes the game have less uncertainty, it doesn't make the game easier, or lower the skill ceiling, it just makes it so people can actually play knowing whether or not the scan saw shit or not.
It's incredible how so many people just hate every change blizzard makes to the game, just because it's not what they are used to... *sigh* So why not display the ranges of all units? Why not display the range that overlords, observers, turrets and spore crawlers can see? Why not show how far workers can see when they scout? Why are we only showing how much Terran can see? One of these things is not like the others. Seriously. Scan is an instant, area-of-effect, undeniable scout. I think they are pretty good reasons why it's a special case.
But isn't the point "so I know if they saw X"...
Why does it matter if its "deniable" or not. Why should I not know if the overlord that came flying in saw Y?
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On September 06 2012 12:34 NKexquisite wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 12:32 xeqwist wrote:
I think this is a good change, it makes the game have less uncertainty, it doesn't make the game easier, or lower the skill ceiling, it just makes it so people can actually play knowing whether or not the scan saw shit or not.
It's incredible how so many people just hate every change blizzard makes to the game, just because it's not what they are used to... *sigh* So why not display the ranges of all units? Why not display the range that overlords, observers, turrets and spore crawlers can see? Why not show how far workers can see when they scout? Why are we only showing how much Terran can see?
Why not display the ranges of all units? Cause it would unreasonably clog up the screen with a crapton of lines. Perhaps if you click on the unit, then it shows you the range but you would have to have vision of that unit in the first place of course. Thus, it would be applicable to overlords, observers, turrets, etc. Though it would be hilarious to have vision of an observer and see it's range and not be able to kill it.
The above also applies to workers if you have vision of them. If you have no vision of a worker, it would make no sense to see their range in the first place.
I would hazard a guess that the main reason it only applies to scan currently is because it fulfills the conditions of (1) not completely clogging up the screen with lines and (2) the opponent has "vision" of where the scan is being thrown down anyway.
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On September 06 2012 12:44 bucckevin wrote:
Bad for the players, bad for the spectators. For the players, the element of surprise is gone. For the spectators, the element of suspense is gone. How many times have we seen it in the GSL where a player barely sees or misses on a scan, making the obs toggle between the players view?
So as spectators we'll know where the scan saw a couple of seconds earlier... really struggling to see how that's bad.
As far as I'm concerned this is 100% good.
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Don't like this change. If this change applies, why not add in what can the enemy overlord, observer or a medivac can see?
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I can't see how this is bad. People always want something new to complain about.
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On September 06 2012 11:19 TheFish7 wrote:scans slightly more easily for those players who are not super gosu at knowing where the range of the scan ends.
Thats exactly the problem, it shouldnt be easier, another micro/game sense killing invention
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Ugh.. Blizzard should use HoTS to actually raise the skill ceiling, not decrease it.
This game shouldn't be about build orders, it should be about reactions, knowledge and ESPECIALLY mechanics.
As tedious as the manual "tell your worker to mine" aspect of Brood War, it did reward the player who had more apm and multitask than the one who didn't (there's a reason why foreigners couldn't beat Koreans in BW while the playing field has been leveled in SC2).
Anything that rewards the player who has the most knowledge (scan radius is one) and APM, while anything that tries to negate the luck factor of build order wins is a GOOD thing. Blizzard should go the hard way with this game.. they screwed all of their other franchises, they should at least get this one right.. At the moment, I am not happy with the way this game is going, and any initiatives to let Blizzard know that we want a HARD game which requires amazing skill gets my thumbs up.
Edit: In a more drastic point of view, I am all for higher supply cap (the current worker count and supply cap discourages macro heavy players), and 6 mineral fields bases. This game needs more dynamism, macro, and LURKERS.
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On September 06 2012 11:31 Sbuiko wrote:
I like it. It's closer to how it worked in BW too. Don't like the line thingy tho. Maybe instead of that dashed line, they could just extend the existing scan circle animation to a much bigger radius, while reducing it's opaqueness a bit. It would look less artificial that way.
Wtf. BW scan radius looked even smaller than sc2 did before this patch (incidentally I think it's stupid but that's besides the point). Seriously, where did you get this idea from? Did you just pull it out of your ass? Have you played broodwar? It's just so objectively wrong and no ones called him on it it's mindboggling.
Anyway, imo Blizzard has bigger problems then making problems out of nothing. Maybe by LotV protoss will be so evolved I'll just start my Starcraft up and my game will play itself while feeding me. Fuck if I know.
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On September 06 2012 11:31 Sbuiko wrote:
I like it. It's closer to how it worked in BW too. Don't like the line thingy tho. Maybe instead of that dashed line, they could just extend the existing scan circle animation to a much bigger radius, while reducing it's opaqueness a bit. It would look less artificial that way.
Why is it closer to how BW worked? If I remember correctly, the BW scan was just like a bunch of sparkly stars that definitely did not clearly show you the range of vision that the Terran saw. I actually liked that a lot better than a big yellow clock on the screen.
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On September 06 2012 12:59 teamamerica wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 11:31 Sbuiko wrote:
I like it. It's closer to how it worked in BW too. Don't like the line thingy tho. Maybe instead of that dashed line, they could just extend the existing scan circle animation to a much bigger radius, while reducing it's opaqueness a bit. It would look less artificial that way. Wtf. BW scan radius looked even smaller than sc2 did before this patch (incidentally I think it's stupid but that's besides the point). Seriously, where did you get this idea from? Did you just pull it out of your ass? Have you played broodwar? It's just so objectively wrong and no ones called him on it it's mindboggling. Anyway, imo Blizzard has bigger problems then making problems out of nothing. Maybe by LotV protoss will be so evolved I'll just start my Starcraft up and my game will play itself while feeding me. Fuck if I know.
Haha we both called that shit out at the same time
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On September 06 2012 12:14 FabledIntegral wrote:
Blegh. Might as well show how far siege tanks can shoot then.
You mean.. like a circle with the center being the seige tank that shows the range it can shoot?
+ Show Spoiler +
Nahhh, thats going to far...
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Well, this change was a bit retarded. There is no reason not to be able to know what has been scanned. I mean, for every unit, you can pretty much tell where their range ends and if they have or haven't seen your units. But that? Seriously, the scan animation is so small in comparison to the area, and only a small radius difference about what you think it sees and what it really sees can make a big difference on whether to stick with a strategy or not. I am not an expert on the subject, but I am pretty sure no pro on the planet can say for sure what is in the scanning range or not when it happens, especially in the heat of a game.
Not being able to see the scan radius added absolutely nothing to the mechanics of the game (unlike auto-mining or the 1-button army selection), but it only added an element of "luck", "chance" or "hope" if you prefer, in the manner of "I hope he hasn't seen my dark shrine" or "I hope he hasn't seen my unit moving over there" in so many scenarios. Elements that add luck aren't skill based and aren't needed in SC2. As I mentioned above, you just can't be 100% sure where the scan ends, and that was always a big flaw about the spell.
That being said, I find the the way they addressed the issue was a bit too drastic. What I would have done would have been to increase the scan animation to fill the whole detection range. That way, you can basically tell what the scans see, but you don't have ugly "rough" borders like the sensor tower's vision that basically make no sense and pulls away a little bit of the game (if that makes any sense?)...
EDIT:
On September 06 2012 13:01 Energizer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 12:14 FabledIntegral wrote:
Blegh. Might as well show how far siege tanks can shoot then. You mean.. like a circle with the center being the seige tank that shows the range it can shoot? + Show Spoiler +Nahhh, thats going to far...
I don't think the opponent can see this radius; only the Terran player can. Only the sensor tower have this "mechanic" already implemented. You have the same range for the static defenses when you are placing them as well. According to your comparison, you say it like if the Terran player couldn't see how far his scan was able to see before, which is completely inaccurate. A player has always been able to see how far his own units are able to shoot; the problem here is about whether the opponent should be able to know exactly how far the scan can see.
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On September 06 2012 11:39 Scufo wrote:
I liked the uncertainty of the old scan.
When an Overlord enters your base and you kill it just in time that it doesn't see your stuff, there's a degree of uncertainty. Did it see or not? I don't see why scan can't be that way too. It's already a choice between a MULE and Scan, it SHOULD be powerful.
I think you figured out why I'm falling out of love with this game. It all started with the cancel animation...
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That's kinda cool, I like the idea a lot.
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On September 06 2012 12:03 Armada Vega wrote:
I disagree with this change and every bodies opinion on this matter so far. Zerg players and protoss players are cheering, while terrans are not. This change doesn't follow logic in my opinion, why is this applied to scans and not overlords and observers?.
-- What if terrans always new what overlords and observers saw and what they didn't see? How would everyone feel about this?
-- What if this followed logic and applied to all detectors? How would you feel if spore crawlers, overlords, overseers, observers and cannons now showed their radius, and the player would see the radius before they got in range of being detected. Now every player could always avoid everything, always.
If this change only effected terran scans, whats the reasoning behind it? A scan is a detection, why is there not a visible radius for all forms of detection?
-- You can pretty much estimate what observers and overseers see because they have normal vision range, the scan however reveals a much larger area than the graphic itself portrays. That makes it almost impossible to tell exactly how much a scan saw.
-- I can say almost the same thing to your second point, all the said units and structures have normal detection range, so you know what you can expect and putting a little dotted circle around every detector would be inconvenient and would probably be more harmful than helpful, the scan once again stands out, because it's used for much more than just a detector, neither is it a stationary constant unit or structure and the range it reveals is once again much different from the others.
Your comparisons aren't really comparable. Do you see the difference now?
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Just try leaving it in for 6 months and then take it out if it's still a problem just so people (everyone) get a better sense of what the range is. My sense of it is still terrible.
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+ Show Spoiler +On September 06 2012 13:02 PatouPower wrote:Well, this change was a bit retarded. There is no reason not to be able to know what has been scanned. I mean, for every unit, you can pretty much tell where their range ends and if they have or haven't seen your units. But that? Seriously, the scan animation is so small in comparison to the area, and only a small radius difference about what you think it sees and what it really sees can make a big difference on whether to stick with a strategy or not. I am not an expert on the subject, but I am pretty sure no pro on the planet can say for sure what is in the scanning range or not when it happens, especially in the heat of a game. Not being able to see the scan radius added absolutely nothing to the mechanics of the game (unlike auto-mining or the 1-button army selection), but it only added an element of "luck", "chance" or "hope" if you prefer, in the manner of "I hope he hasn't seen my dark shrine" or "I hope he hasn't seen my unit moving over there" in so many scenarios. Elements that add luck aren't skill based and aren't needed in SC2. As I mentioned above, you just can't be 100% sure where the scan ends, and that was always a big flaw about the spell. That being said, I find the the way they addressed the issue was a bit too drastic. What I would have done would have been to increase the scan animation to fill the whole detection range. That way, you can basically tell what the scans see, but you don't have ugly "rough" borders like the sensor tower's vision that basically make no sense and pulls away a little bit of the game (if that makes any sense?)... EDIT: On September 06 2012 13:01 Energizer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 12:14 FabledIntegral wrote:
Blegh. Might as well show how far siege tanks can shoot then. You mean.. like a circle with the center being the seige tank that shows the range it can shoot? + Show Spoiler +Nahhh, thats going to far... I don't think the opponent can see this radius; only the Terran player can. Only the sensor tower have this "mechanic" already implemented. You have the same range for the static defenses when you are placing them as well. According to your comparison, you say it like if the Terran player couldn't see how far his scan was able to see before, which is completely inaccurate. A player has always been able to see how far his own units are able to shoot; the problem here is about whether the opponent should be able to know exactly how far the scan can see.
You realize that you can just click on your enemy's tanks to see its range, right..?
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I don't understand the claims that the current, WoL scan is a coinflip, because it's really only partially a coinflip, and this is something I really like in the game. If you are familiar with the range on a scan by the animation, which you CAN be, considering that the scan is always the same size and your screen should always be at the same zoom distance, you should be able to use this knowledge to tell whether or not your hiding tech has been scouted. It only truly becomes a coinflip if the player is unfamiliar with scan range, and I would say that they deserve a coinflip for lack of game knowledge. Imagine if I sent an overlord over a proxy starport just finishing a banshee, and the game told me that a banshee was on the way, without me ever moving my screen over to the starport to see it or even glancing at the minimap to see the little red blip leave my vision. Obviously if I were a better player, I would have seen the banshee immediately, yes? But clearly I'm a casual nooby player and the designers for HotS think I need to be handed my information on a silver platter.
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I don't like it because it's one less thing to learn through practice. If anything it could be a nice addition to an observer only view point though!
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On September 06 2012 11:41 seansye wrote:
By the time Legacy of the Void comes out Starcraft will be Noobcraft.
This man knows.
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Yeah, I really don't like it as well. I shouldn't know what they were able to see. Takes away another small metric of skill, knowing whether or not he saw my Dark Shrine/robotics/etc. While we're at it, why don't we put a circle around the overlord's range, so when zerg sac's and ovi, we know whether or not he scouted that building just at the edge of his vision. Hell, we should make it so it shows whether or not he clicked on it to see what it was in time. That way we'll know exactly what he saw!
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On September 06 2012 13:43 Leyra wrote:
Yeah, I really don't like it as well. I shouldn't know what they were able to see. Takes away another small metric of skill, knowing whether or not he saw my Dark Shrine/robotics/etc. While we're at it, why don't we put a circle around the overlord's range, so when zerg sac's and ovi, we know whether or not he scouted that building just at the edge of his vision. Hell, we should make it so it shows whether or not he clicked on it to see what it was in time. That way we'll know exactly what he saw!
Lets just play with no fog of war, that will fix it! (sarcasm)
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On September 06 2012 13:21 xeqwist wrote:Show nested quote ++ Show Spoiler +On September 06 2012 13:02 PatouPower wrote:Well, this change was a bit retarded. There is no reason not to be able to know what has been scanned. I mean, for every unit, you can pretty much tell where their range ends and if they have or haven't seen your units. But that? Seriously, the scan animation is so small in comparison to the area, and only a small radius difference about what you think it sees and what it really sees can make a big difference on whether to stick with a strategy or not. I am not an expert on the subject, but I am pretty sure no pro on the planet can say for sure what is in the scanning range or not when it happens, especially in the heat of a game. Not being able to see the scan radius added absolutely nothing to the mechanics of the game (unlike auto-mining or the 1-button army selection), but it only added an element of "luck", "chance" or "hope" if you prefer, in the manner of "I hope he hasn't seen my dark shrine" or "I hope he hasn't seen my unit moving over there" in so many scenarios. Elements that add luck aren't skill based and aren't needed in SC2. As I mentioned above, you just can't be 100% sure where the scan ends, and that was always a big flaw about the spell. That being said, I find the the way they addressed the issue was a bit too drastic. What I would have done would have been to increase the scan animation to fill the whole detection range. That way, you can basically tell what the scans see, but you don't have ugly "rough" borders like the sensor tower's vision that basically make no sense and pulls away a little bit of the game (if that makes any sense?)... EDIT: On September 06 2012 13:01 Energizer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 12:14 FabledIntegral wrote:
Blegh. Might as well show how far siege tanks can shoot then. You mean.. like a circle with the center being the seige tank that shows the range it can shoot? + Show Spoiler +Nahhh, thats going to far... I don't think the opponent can see this radius; only the Terran player can. Only the sensor tower have this "mechanic" already implemented. You have the same range for the static defenses when you are placing them as well. According to your comparison, you say it like if the Terran player couldn't see how far his scan was able to see before, which is completely inaccurate. A player has always been able to see how far his own units are able to shoot; the problem here is about whether the opponent should be able to know exactly how far the scan can see. You realize that you can just click on your enemy's tanks to see its range, right..?
Another winner! No you can only see your tank range. Or as an observer from 'everyone' perspective, you can see both. Nice sarcasm though! This thread is like a magnet for completely baseless statements about sc2.
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On September 06 2012 12:57 Patate wrote:
Ugh.. Blizzard should use HoTS to actually raise the skill ceiling, not decrease it.
This game shouldn't be about build orders, it should be about reactions, knowledge and ESPECIALLY mechanics.
These fancy new user friendly things are TOTALLY NEEDED in the game from a spectator standpoint.
SC2 needs to compete with DOTA2 which is just mind boggingly powerful as an esports game, as much as I don't like it, it's true.
We need the newbies to feel welcome to SC2 so they will one day evolve into pros.
Maybe this option should be disabled at grand master level or higher? (the scan)
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On September 06 2012 14:26 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 12:57 Patate wrote:
Ugh.. Blizzard should use HoTS to actually raise the skill ceiling, not decrease it.
This game shouldn't be about build orders, it should be about reactions, knowledge and ESPECIALLY mechanics.
These fancy new user friendly things are TOTALLY NEEDED in the game from a spectator standpoint. SC2 needs to compete with DOTA2 which is just mind boggingly powerful as an esports game, as much as I don't like it, it's true. We need the newbies to feel welcome to SC2 so they will one day evolve into pros. Maybe this option should be disabled at grand master level or higher? (the scan)
Maybe on the no-rush practice league..
People will want to grind the fuck out of a game that they love to watch. Being easy or not does influence it, but it's not the most important factor.
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I love it as a spectator.
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Protosses and Zergs here are complaining about not being able to know how much a scan revealed. Do terrans know how much vision overlords and observers have? Probably just a rough estimate. If you didn't know, scan vision radii don't change. Maybe if you take that small effort by playing Terran in single player to figure out the range, you will know the radius and make you a better player with better game sense? Just my thoughts. I believe all small things pile up in the end.
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On September 06 2012 14:26 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 12:57 Patate wrote:
Ugh.. Blizzard should use HoTS to actually raise the skill ceiling, not decrease it.
This game shouldn't be about build orders, it should be about reactions, knowledge and ESPECIALLY mechanics.
These fancy new user friendly things are TOTALLY NEEDED in the game from a spectator standpoint. SC2 needs to compete with DOTA2 which is just mind boggingly powerful as an esports game, as much as I don't like it, it's true. We need the newbies to feel welcome to SC2 so they will one day evolve into pros. Maybe this option should be disabled at grand master level or higher? (the scan)
There are so many bad statements in here.
For one thing, SC2 is a much easier game to follow than Dota if you don't know anything about either game. And while SC2 and Dota are both esports, in many respects they are not fighting over the same audience. Watching esports isn't mutually exclusive by any stretch, and people will want to watch whichever game appeals to them more. No small UI change that blizzard makes now is going to make any difference in that.
Dota as a game relies more on execution than SC2 does, in a sense. One teamfight can turn an almost lost game around, and 2 can even totally turn the game around, and the abilities are innately exciting in the game. In SC2, however, the game is more about information (note that both of these are important in both games, information is especially important in dota, please buy wards guys) and while giving that information to people studying replays will be greatly beneficial, from a spectator standpoint, we should be receiving less info. This is why many people would describe SC2 as a game with the strategy of chess and the information of poker. It created so much tension for me to see flash's scv in BW going across the map to scout a proxy in a ridiculous location, and in that time I'm just thinking that he's never going to see it, because the audience doesn't know where the scv is going to go until it gets there. In SC2 this tension will never exist because observers get to see the queued commands of scouts, so I'll know immediately whether or not he'll se it and the tension buildup just won't occur. So if the appeal of the game is about incomplete information, giving spectators more information would be counterproductive. Once again, in replays this stuff is gold, and can give you a lot of information about scout patterns, scan placements, and the like. And while that's all fine and dandy for people trying to learn from a game, it certainly makes watching a tournament less exciting.
Any player that wouldn't pick up this game because there wasn't a circle around the scan radius, any player so casual that the game as it is today doesn't appeal to them at all, will never be a pro player. They probably don't want to be a pro player, they probably don't like the game in the first place. Appealing to the casuals might be good for blizzard's profits, but in no way is it at all good for the pro scene.
The whole point of a competitive game is that you always start on the same playing field. Removing features for players once they've proven that they have some worth is a terrible idea.
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On the one hand it makes kinda sense, cause before that almost nobody could tell you how big the scan radius really is and what buildings your opponent saw when he scanned you.
On the other hand you are right that this takes that "uncertain" momentum out of the game. Now you know for sure what he saw and what not, and you are able to adjust your tactics.
I think i'll go with "I don't like it"
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I see this as more of a legacy art issue from WoL. The point of the art animation for scan should be to communicate the effect, obviously if it was the same size as the revealed space it would be so big that A) you wouldnt see what was underneath it easily and B) it would be distracting. This is an intelligent way to do what the art should do in the first place, clearly communicate an ability in the game.
I see it no differently than a siege tank having a different sound and particle effect when shooting in siege vs. non-siege mode.
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On September 06 2012 15:40 xajukx wrote:
I see this as more of a legacy art issue from WoL. The point of the art animation for scan should be to communicate the effect, obviously if it was the same size as the revealed space it would be so big that A) you wouldnt see what was underneath it easily and B) it would be distracting. This is an intelligent way to do what the art should do in the first place, clearly communicate an ability in the game.
I see it no differently than a siege tank having a different sound and particle effect when shooting in siege vs. non-siege mode.
Don't you see the game changing aspect of this? Before that you could only guess what your opponent saw when he scanned you. Now you KNOW it.
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I think this idea is so terrible. I don't know how to express how terrible it is.
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Great addition. Finally some clarity! Love HotS changes so far
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On September 06 2012 14:06 teamamerica wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 13:21 xeqwist wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 06 2012 13:02 PatouPower wrote:Well, this change was a bit retarded. There is no reason not to be able to know what has been scanned. I mean, for every unit, you can pretty much tell where their range ends and if they have or haven't seen your units. But that? Seriously, the scan animation is so small in comparison to the area, and only a small radius difference about what you think it sees and what it really sees can make a big difference on whether to stick with a strategy or not. I am not an expert on the subject, but I am pretty sure no pro on the planet can say for sure what is in the scanning range or not when it happens, especially in the heat of a game. Not being able to see the scan radius added absolutely nothing to the mechanics of the game (unlike auto-mining or the 1-button army selection), but it only added an element of "luck", "chance" or "hope" if you prefer, in the manner of "I hope he hasn't seen my dark shrine" or "I hope he hasn't seen my unit moving over there" in so many scenarios. Elements that add luck aren't skill based and aren't needed in SC2. As I mentioned above, you just can't be 100% sure where the scan ends, and that was always a big flaw about the spell. That being said, I find the the way they addressed the issue was a bit too drastic. What I would have done would have been to increase the scan animation to fill the whole detection range. That way, you can basically tell what the scans see, but you don't have ugly "rough" borders like the sensor tower's vision that basically make no sense and pulls away a little bit of the game (if that makes any sense?)... EDIT: On September 06 2012 13:01 Energizer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 12:14 FabledIntegral wrote:
Blegh. Might as well show how far siege tanks can shoot then. You mean.. like a circle with the center being the seige tank that shows the range it can shoot? + Show Spoiler +Nahhh, thats going to far... I don't think the opponent can see this radius; only the Terran player can. Only the sensor tower have this "mechanic" already implemented. You have the same range for the static defenses when you are placing them as well. According to your comparison, you say it like if the Terran player couldn't see how far his scan was able to see before, which is completely inaccurate. A player has always been able to see how far his own units are able to shoot; the problem here is about whether the opponent should be able to know exactly how far the scan can see. You realize that you can just click on your enemy's tanks to see its range, right..? Another winner! No you can only see your tank range. Or as an observer from 'everyone' perspective, you can see both. Nice sarcasm though! This thread is like a magnet for completely baseless statements about sc2.
You can see your enemys tank range, ingame while playing. Just click on it. Haha its true!!!
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On September 06 2012 11:26 theHubble wrote:
Yea i think this is really dumb.. i mean we're lucky enough to see the big circle that tells theres a scan but now they have to go ahead and tell us EXACTLY how far they can see? ... why?
I don't get people like you. What seems flawed to me in the first place is the misleading WoL scan animation. Ideally it should match whatever it is actually revealing to the Terran player.
This HotS thing is dumb however, in that instead of fixing the animation itself, they just added a horrible circumference that looks more like an aid than a fix. And then commences the brainless whining because of it.
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I guess I don't mind it too much. It takes an element of guessing away from the game. That is something I didn't really like...did he see my structure or not? Now I can make better strategy based decisions off of what happens during the game.
No one says chess isn't a serious strategy game and very difficult yet both players see everything.
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i dont like it. the decals look horrible, and they hopefully will be changed. still i dont think there is any reason to display scan range
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On September 06 2012 11:22 Brutaxilos wrote:
I actually like this quite a lot. There really is no reason not to be able to tell how far the scan can see. But I feel like the decals forming the circle are a little ugly.
There is no reason we don't have auto-mineral stacking on nearest mineral patches. There is no reason MM doesn't stim itself at appropriate times, there is no reason to...
Yes there is, it requires you to actually do something. In the case of scan LEARN where the borders are, which isn't actually that easy. Most people will take this new "feature" as a convenience or something, fuck. Blizzard adding in so many "features" it hurts my head.
I'm fine with MBS/max army selection/etc, those were put in because of previous UI limitations, this new stuff is just sad.
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I would be fine with the animation of the scan fitting the actual size of the scan, but this looks so aweful.
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On September 06 2012 17:29 Fjodorov wrote:
I would be fine with the animation of the scan fitting the actual size of the scan, but this looks so aweful.
With multiple scans in the same location, you can create a blind effect for some time. If the animation would be larger, you would be able to blind a larger part, this could be a balance issue under certain circumstances.
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This is another one of those things everyones going to bitch about and will have zero impact on how the majority enjoy this game as spectators or players....
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
I like this change. Makes it more like Broodwar (the animation covered the entire scan in BW)
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I like it. Spell animations usually covers the whole area of the spell, with scan it was just weird in WoL.
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On September 06 2012 19:06 Qikz wrote:
I like this change. Makes it more like Broodwar (the animation covered the entire scan in BW)
No it didn't. It just made some sparkly blue stars in the middle of the screen but the vision extended much further.
Here's a screenshot I just took:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/QhmAS.png)
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On September 06 2012 11:59 Grumbels wrote:
It removes some mystery and excitement from playing the game. Imo, competitive games like this should not be about definite yes/no things, but about 'feel'.
this. You can perfectly 'know' the range of scan if you watch it enough. This scan radius just destroys another aspect of the game.
Sc2 is making everything exact science, but it's not a good thing. It's constricting play and making it incredibly easy for anyone. You should be making these decisions based on experience you have with the game,knowledge you gathered from playing a lot. It's just like the in game timer clock. Every bronze noob now knows when to build his spore in time for the fastest cloak banshee on 1 base. It takes no actual skill or game sense any more. You just start building it at 6.30 and you're safe.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On September 06 2012 19:19 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 19:06 Qikz wrote:
I like this change. Makes it more like Broodwar (the animation covered the entire scan in BW) No it didn't. It just made some sparkly blue stars in the middle of the screen but the vision extended much further. Here's a screenshot I just took:
Well I'll be damned. Everything I've always believed was a lie.
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I say no to this.
maybe a clearer effect for scan be constant inclusion of "infographics" is not the way to go.
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Before the beta I was hoping that SCV number and other things were only for specs. I think it's bad for the game. I won't stop Sc2 for this but we don't need it.
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What confuses me is that they show the scan radius, but not the tank radius (like they do for the Terran player). I mean, where is the difference between the two? They both provide easy information that can be learned the hard way, and give a nice advantage to the defending player. To be honest, I don't mind these changes (it makes life easier for the bad players, and gives the pro players the possibility to spend their time on other things), what annoys me is the inconsistency in which they are applied.
Like the auto-mine feature that was introduced, and yet the first worker has to be build manually. It's just all so random.
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I always thought it was dumb to scan an area that is twice as bid as the animation. Don't know what I should think of this. Why didn't they just adjust the size of the animation to the actual scan size?
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On September 06 2012 20:25 regiment wrote:
I always thought it was dumb to scan an area that is twice as bid as the animation. Don't know what I should think of this. Why didn't they just adjust the size of the animation to the actual scan size?
I'd say the very simple reason they don't do that is because it'd look rather silly. The area is pretty much an entire screen, covering the entire screen in an animation isn't really a good idea.
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i think this is better, it'll actually add more stratergy.
You'll know which buildings the terran has/hasnt seen and which units they have/havent seen
now there'll never be any guessing as to weather or not the terran knows you've got mutas coming or collosus or whatever
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Good change, radius is so much bigger than animation. Now it's clear.
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Dont like it... but I'll get used to it.
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On September 06 2012 20:49 ThatGuy89 wrote:
i think this is better, it'll actually add more stratergy.
You'll know which buildings the terran has/hasnt seen and which units they have/havent seen
now there'll never be any guessing as to weather or not the terran knows you've got mutas coming or collosus or whatever
Yeah that sounds great... because those weren't huge enough game breakers already, stupid change, plus I love how everyone just assumes that scan sees EVERYTHING in your base entirely, theres a thing called putting building in odd locations to avoid scouting, now I guess you don't even really need to worry about that as well... dumbing the game down more and more
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On September 06 2012 20:25 regiment wrote:
I always thought it was dumb to scan an area that is twice as bid as the animation. Don't know what I should think of this. Why didn't they just adjust the size of the animation to the actual scan size?
Maybe because overlapping scans hide the background?
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I dislike this. It's not due to the skill cap or anything but when a T scans you then it's always a "Did they see this?" and now there's no doubt in what they saw.
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I really do think this thread has reached the point of absurdity.
I mean really, whining about scan radius matching its actual radius, and pretending to be serious about it?
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I think it is a good change. Either this or make the scan animation accurately reflect its radius. Blizzard has talked before about the balance between the artistic side vs making the game logical and objective. Psi storm would probably look cooler if it covered half the screen but it isn't realistic; all other AoE abilitiy animations reflect the actual area they effect and scan should be no different.
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On September 06 2012 19:38 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 19:19 forsooth wrote:On September 06 2012 19:06 Qikz wrote:
I like this change. Makes it more like Broodwar (the animation covered the entire scan in BW) No it didn't. It just made some sparkly blue stars in the middle of the screen but the vision extended much further. Here's a screenshot I just took: Well I'll be damned. Everything I've always believed was a lie.
Just another case of people believing shit they didn't look into. It's ok, most of TL are in the same boat as you.
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On September 06 2012 11:22 FataLe wrote:I'm a Protoss player and I hate this change. It didn't need to happen and it's just one more thing to add to the easierness? of the game.
if anythng it helps you, dont you see whitera warping in DTS? the scanning player of course knows where his vision is but it helps the player being scanned to know just how far he sees.
I dont like the idea because it makes no sense: how can the player being scanned know the radius? Do the other races have scan detection technology the is not explicitly mentioned?
No big deal though. I think its a cool added feature. But is there some tech??? haha
what i mean is, how does zerg and protoss know about the scan? There was already a swirling animation. Do they have a technology to explain the feature?
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If they cant explain how an opponent can see the limit of the scan then there should be no outline. It is cool when it is like broodwar where the scan is only shown with blue stars. You only know of the scan really and have to guess about what it saw in the area. That is what makes a professional is knowing what was scanned without the assistance of outlines.
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it's basically the same shit as in heroes of newerth where they added tower range. Takes away skill from the game. You should know by feeling how far the range is, it takes more skill and is another aspect to differentiate a worse player from a more experienced one.
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The scanned area in SC2 is much bigger than in BW. And due to the scanning animation it's too hard to tell where the scanning radius ends. I would have preferred a scanning animation where it's very clear where the scanning range ends, but this does the job too, good addition.
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I think this is great, very fair.
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On September 06 2012 19:54 Conti wrote:
What confuses me is that they show the scan radius, but not the tank radius (like they do for the Terran player). I mean, where is the difference between the two? They both provide easy information that can be learned the hard way, and give a nice advantage to the defending player. To be honest, I don't mind these changes (it makes life easier for the bad players, and gives the pro players the possibility to spend their time on other things), what annoys me is the inconsistency in which they are applied.
Like the auto-mine feature that was introduced, and yet the first worker has to be build manually. It's just all so random.
That's not random; that's a choice (though one rarely taken). If you're 6-pooling, being forced to spend 50 minerals on a Drone you don't want is having choices taken away from you.
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On September 06 2012 11:31 Sbuiko wrote:
I like it. It's closer to how it worked in BW too. Don't like the line thingy tho. Maybe instead of that dashed line, they could just extend the existing scan circle animation to a much bigger radius, while reducing it's opaqueness a bit. It would look less artificial that way.
I'm Protoss player and really really like this idea. Remove that ugly circle denoting the radius of the scan, and just make the initial sparkle scan animation large enough to show the entire area that was actually scanned.
PLEASE, THIS!!
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+1 for this change, the scan animation was always misleading and how many times did u hear the following from casters: "oh, go check his vision if he saw xy with that scan"
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On September 06 2012 11:38 dabom88 wrote:
You can't see how far the detection radius is for Missile Turrets, Spore Crawlers, Photon Cannons, Ravens, Overseers, or Observers.
Why do you get to see the detection radius for scans?
I totally agree.
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On September 07 2012 04:39 Moonsalt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 11:38 dabom88 wrote:
You can't see how far the detection radius is for Missile Turrets, Spore Crawlers, Photon Cannons, Ravens, Overseers, or Observers.
Why do you get to see the detection radius for scans? I totally agree.
1) You can have many of these detectors, meaning there could be a lot of ugly lines everywhere, and they don't disappear after a set amount of time like scans do.
2) Scan is a scouting tool as well as a detector, and that's where this is most important. You know if your cloaked unit is detected (by scan or other detector) because things start shooting it. That's a normal interaction between units and is a gameplay thing. The scan texture not being as big as the sight given is a graphical/ui issue that adds uncertainty into the game.
3) Uncertainty isn't skill. The skill in reacting to a scan of your important tech structure comes from the decision of whether or not changing your tech would be wise and in knowing your opponent's likely reactions to what he saw. If you don't know if he saw it or not, it's a coinflippy clusterfuck.
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I like this change. There was a rather large degree of guessing to whether or not he saw certain tech structures with his scan. Adding this is like making the camera in a third person shooter better. Sure, it makes the game easier, but it's the good kind of easier, the kind that is removing stuff that is annoying and not just difficult.
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On September 07 2012 04:53 SgtCoDFish wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 04:39 Moonsalt wrote:On September 06 2012 11:38 dabom88 wrote:
You can't see how far the detection radius is for Missile Turrets, Spore Crawlers, Photon Cannons, Ravens, Overseers, or Observers.
Why do you get to see the detection radius for scans? I totally agree. 1) You can have many of these detectors, meaning there could be a lot of ugly lines everywhere, and they don't disappear after a set amount of time like scans do. 2) Scan is a scouting tool as well as a detector, and that's where this is most important. You know if your cloaked unit is detected (by scan or other detector) because things start shooting it. That's a normal interaction between units and is a gameplay thing. The scan texture not being as big as the sight given is a graphical/ui issue that adds uncertainty into the game. 3) Uncertainty isn't skill. The skill in reacting to a scan of your important tech structure comes from the decision of whether or not changing your tech would be wise and in knowing your opponent's likely reactions to what he saw. If you don't know if he saw it or not, it's a coinflippy clusterfuck.
Starcraft thrives on vagueness. It's one of the reasons why Brood War was superior to Wings of Liberty, it's because people begged long and hard to make the game more about 'strategy', so all the really difficult mechanics were addressed. Heart of the Swarm simply takes this one step further, information is more clearly defined, easier to understand and utilize. From now on you do not have to get a feel for saturation numbers of for detection radius anymore. Blizzard now provides this information as input for your strategy.
The problem is that strategy is rather boring. If you look at your typical game, then honestly most players play the same popular builds over and over again, since it's so easy to copy what successful players are doing. A lot of match-ups are quite trivial, especially zerg often 'just' has to turtle into brood lords and all the fuzzy feelings-based aspects to this game that allow players with superior game sense to do well are one by one eliminated just so that eventually everyone can execute the same rote strategy at the same level. I honestly think it's bizarre the community is still so obsessed with strategy, it's as if so many have so little respect for all the beauty inherent to paying attention to all the small little details and utilizing them correctly. There is so much more to this game than just strategy and unit control, it really is so much about a certain mystique where frequently you have no solid information and have to depend on visual processing or pattern recognition (i.e. game sense or 'feel'). Making everything clear and streamlined honestly won't make the game any more fun, it will just allow you to better execute your 2 base timing attacks without being bothered by the fact you have little experience with the game and lack essential cognitive skills.
Imagine if during the development of DOTA2 Valve had decided that the game really needed to be about picking hero compositions, item choices and lane divisions. They could remove all skill-intensive abilities of the game (last kills, denying, aimed shots) so that it would again be more about strategy, all to reward the smarter player. But why is someone with knowledge and analytical skills superior to someone with the superior cognitive abilities required to excel at unit control and economy management?
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On September 07 2012 04:53 SgtCoDFish wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 04:39 Moonsalt wrote:On September 06 2012 11:38 dabom88 wrote:
You can't see how far the detection radius is for Missile Turrets, Spore Crawlers, Photon Cannons, Ravens, Overseers, or Observers.
Why do you get to see the detection radius for scans? I totally agree. 1) You can have many of these detectors, meaning there could be a lot of ugly lines everywhere, and they don't disappear after a set amount of time like scans do. 2) Scan is a scouting tool as well as a detector, and that's where this is most important. You know if your cloaked unit is detected (by scan or other detector) because things start shooting it. That's a normal interaction between units and is a gameplay thing. The scan texture not being as big as the sight given is a graphical/ui issue that adds uncertainty into the game. 3) Uncertainty isn't skill. The skill in reacting to a scan of your important tech structure comes from the decision of whether or not changing your tech would be wise and in knowing your opponent's likely reactions to what he saw. If you don't know if he saw it or not, it's a coinflippy clusterfuck.
If uncertainty is not skill why not give total map vision to everyone so their is no uncertainty to what anyone is doing or where they have moved their army the idea that removing uncertainty from the game is good is flawed and leads to interesting strategy and decisions during games.
If you remove uncertainty you also remove the ability to gamble such as I'm gambling that scan did not see my Dark shrine so I'm not going to cancel it. If you know for certain though it removes that from the game completely and Skill and a good understanding of the game counts for less as even if the Dark shrine is not seen by the scan a look at what the scan does see can give you an idea of what you may have missed by the unit count and what type of units etc (protoss has mined a lot of gas but their aren't allot of stalker sentry their but their is allot of zealots where did that gas go)
The change is dumb and removes certain elements from the game which don't need removing and punishes Terran only and only benefits the other races.
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On September 07 2012 04:53 SgtCoDFish wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 04:39 Moonsalt wrote:On September 06 2012 11:38 dabom88 wrote:
You can't see how far the detection radius is for Missile Turrets, Spore Crawlers, Photon Cannons, Ravens, Overseers, or Observers.
Why do you get to see the detection radius for scans? I totally agree. 1) You can have many of these detectors, meaning there could be a lot of ugly lines everywhere, and they don't disappear after a set amount of time like scans do. 2) Scan is a scouting tool as well as a detector, and that's where this is most important. You know if your cloaked unit is detected (by scan or other detector) because things start shooting it. That's a normal interaction between units and is a gameplay thing. The scan texture not being as big as the sight given is a graphical/ui issue that adds uncertainty into the game. 3) Uncertainty isn't skill. The skill in reacting to a scan of your important tech structure comes from the decision of whether or not changing your tech would be wise and in knowing your opponent's likely reactions to what he saw. If you don't know if he saw it or not, it's a coinflippy clusterfuck.
1. Doesn't matter, the argument is for consistency here.
2. The whole point of Observers are as Scouting Tools as well as Detectors. Overseers are also used for both Scouting and Detection, though obviously they aren't as effective for Scouting, they still are used for both. And unlike them, Scans are temporary.
3. Look at previous responses for this one.
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As terran i like this change. If you recall, in bw, you would always hear the sounds of a comsat scan, so you would always know when a scan was placed anywhere.
and the animation in sc2 is bullshitty compared to the range of the scan
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On September 07 2012 05:35 Warpath wrote:
As terran i like this change. If you recall, in bw, you would always hear the sounds of a comsat scan, so you would always know when a scan was placed anywhere.
and the animation in sc2 is bullshitty compared to the range of the scan
SC2 gives you a sound too and the animation is so much more obnoxious and obvious than the sparkly stars of brood war
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On September 07 2012 05:39 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 05:36 redemption wrote:On September 07 2012 05:35 Warpath wrote:
As terran i like this change. If you recall, in bw, you would always hear the sounds of a comsat scan, so you would always know when a scan was placed anywhere.
and the animation in sc2 is bullshitty compared to the range of the scan SC2 gives you a sound too and the animation is so much more obnoxious and obvious than the sparkly stars of brood war Obnoxious? lol...
Whether or not you agree with the word choice of "obnoxious", it is undoubtedly more obvious than the sparkly stars.
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On September 07 2012 05:16 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 04:53 SgtCoDFish wrote:On September 07 2012 04:39 Moonsalt wrote:On September 06 2012 11:38 dabom88 wrote:
You can't see how far the detection radius is for Missile Turrets, Spore Crawlers, Photon Cannons, Ravens, Overseers, or Observers.
Why do you get to see the detection radius for scans? I totally agree. 1) You can have many of these detectors, meaning there could be a lot of ugly lines everywhere, and they don't disappear after a set amount of time like scans do. 2) Scan is a scouting tool as well as a detector, and that's where this is most important. You know if your cloaked unit is detected (by scan or other detector) because things start shooting it. That's a normal interaction between units and is a gameplay thing. The scan texture not being as big as the sight given is a graphical/ui issue that adds uncertainty into the game. 3) Uncertainty isn't skill. The skill in reacting to a scan of your important tech structure comes from the decision of whether or not changing your tech would be wise and in knowing your opponent's likely reactions to what he saw. If you don't know if he saw it or not, it's a coinflippy clusterfuck. Starcraft thrives on vagueness. It's one of the reasons why Brood War was superior to Wings of Liberty, it's because people begged long and hard to make the game more about 'strategy', so all the really difficult mechanics were addressed. Heart of the Swarm simply takes this one step further, information is more clearly defined, easier to understand and utilize. From now on you do not have to get a feel for saturation numbers of for detection radius anymore. Blizzard now provides this information as input for your strategy. The problem is that strategy is rather boring. If you look at your typical game, then honestly most players play the same popular builds over and over again, since it's so easy to copy what successful players are doing. A lot of match-ups are quite trivial, especially zerg often 'just' has to turtle into brood lords and all the fuzzy feelings-based aspects to this game that allow players with superior game sense to do well are one by one eliminated just so that eventually everyone can execute the same rote strategy at the same level. I honestly think it's bizarre the community is still so obsessed with strategy, it's as if so many have so little respect for all the beauty inherent to paying attention to all the small little details and utilizing them correctly. There is so much more to this game than just strategy and unit control, it really is so much about a certain mystique where frequently you have no solid information and have to depend on visual processing or pattern recognition (i.e. game sense or 'feel'). Making everything clear and streamlined honestly won't make the game any more fun, it will just allow you to better execute your 2 base timing attacks without being bothered by the fact you have little experience with the game and lack essential cognitive skills. Imagine if during the development of DOTA2 Valve had decided that the game really needed to be about picking hero compositions, item choices and lane divisions. They could remove all skill-intensive abilities of the game (last kills, denying, aimed shots) so that it would again be more about strategy, all to reward the smarter player. But why is someone with knowledge and analytical skills superior to someone with the superior cognitive abilities required to excel at unit control and economy management?
Most of that is typical "sc2 isn't bw!!" stuff.
That's your own feeling on what the game should be. Personally, I have nothing against mechanics (and I think it's important to include them in the game, and wouldn't necessarily be against more in SC2) but I despise limiting the player with a bad ui. The UI, as with every other UI, should be a clear and responsive way for the user to interface with the game.
The thing with scan is it's not a unit. That's the main sticking point and the thing people aren't taking into consideration. If an overseer comes into your base to scout, it's down to your knowledge of the overseer's vision range so you know what it saw. The other player controls the unit to try to get the information they want, and you control space with your units to deny it. It's a unit with which you can interact. It's a gameplay thing.
Scans are not like that at all, and that's why I took issue with them being compared to units in-game. There's nothing you can do to stop a scan going off in your base. There's no "good play" involved in stopping them; they'll see what they're going to see whether you're MVP or a bronze scrub. Sure you can hide stuff, but that's nothing to do with scans.
That's why scans should have their vision range shown. If you can't use good play to deny its vision, you should have knowledge of what it saw, because after it fires it's a UI thing, not a gameplay thing.
To clarify, because I know this is wordy:
If an overlord/overseer/obs/whatever gets in your base and scouts a vital tech structure, it's your own fault for not denying that. There's a strategic process of placing units which can deny scouts in the right place, and a mechanical process of controlling your units to do the actual denying (stutterstepping marines/stalkers/queens to shoot down the overlord, for example). If you don't care what they see, you made a strategic decision to not deny them and that's fine too. Or you're bad, which is also fine because it's something you can improve on.
If a scan goes off in your base, not only is it no longer controlled by the terran that fired it off, it's static and you can't deny it. It makes sense to show what it sees.
This is only talking about scans as a scout. Scans as a detector are similar.
Edit: And please don't compare game mechanics between sc2 an dota2, they're completely different games and as such gameplay comparisons are at best invalid and at worst a waste of everyone's time.
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On September 07 2012 05:16 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 04:53 SgtCoDFish wrote:On September 07 2012 04:39 Moonsalt wrote:On September 06 2012 11:38 dabom88 wrote:
You can't see how far the detection radius is for Missile Turrets, Spore Crawlers, Photon Cannons, Ravens, Overseers, or Observers.
Why do you get to see the detection radius for scans? I totally agree. 1) You can have many of these detectors, meaning there could be a lot of ugly lines everywhere, and they don't disappear after a set amount of time like scans do. 2) Scan is a scouting tool as well as a detector, and that's where this is most important. You know if your cloaked unit is detected (by scan or other detector) because things start shooting it. That's a normal interaction between units and is a gameplay thing. The scan texture not being as big as the sight given is a graphical/ui issue that adds uncertainty into the game. 3) Uncertainty isn't skill. The skill in reacting to a scan of your important tech structure comes from the decision of whether or not changing your tech would be wise and in knowing your opponent's likely reactions to what he saw. If you don't know if he saw it or not, it's a coinflippy clusterfuck. Starcraft thrives on vagueness. It's one of the reasons why Brood War was superior to Wings of Liberty, it's because people begged long and hard to make the game more about 'strategy', so all the really difficult mechanics were addressed. Heart of the Swarm simply takes this one step further, information is more clearly defined, easier to understand and utilize. From now on you do not have to get a feel for saturation numbers of for detection radius anymore. Blizzard now provides this information as input for your strategy. The problem is that strategy is rather boring. If you look at your typical game, then honestly most players play the same popular builds over and over again, since it's so easy to copy what successful players are doing. A lot of match-ups are quite trivial, especially zerg often 'just' has to turtle into brood lords and all the fuzzy feelings-based aspects to this game that allow players with superior game sense to do well are one by one eliminated just so that eventually everyone can execute the same rote strategy at the same level. I honestly think it's bizarre the community is still so obsessed with strategy, it's as if so many have so little respect for all the beauty inherent to paying attention to all the small little details and utilizing them correctly. There is so much more to this game than just strategy and unit control, it really is so much about a certain mystique where frequently you have no solid information and have to depend on visual processing or pattern recognition (i.e. game sense or 'feel'). Making everything clear and streamlined honestly won't make the game any more fun, it will just allow you to better execute your 2 base timing attacks without being bothered by the fact you have little experience with the game and lack essential cognitive skills. Imagine if during the development of DOTA2 Valve had decided that the game really needed to be about picking hero compositions, item choices and lane divisions. They could remove all skill-intensive abilities of the game (last kills, denying, aimed shots) so that it would again be more about strategy, all to reward the smarter player. But why is someone with knowledge and analytical skills superior to someone with the superior cognitive abilities required to excel at unit control and economy management?
Great post.
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Can you (the opponent that is) see the yellow circle on the minimap like the sensor tower?
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On September 07 2012 05:47 SgtCoDFish wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 05:16 Grumbels wrote:On September 07 2012 04:53 SgtCoDFish wrote:On September 07 2012 04:39 Moonsalt wrote:On September 06 2012 11:38 dabom88 wrote:
You can't see how far the detection radius is for Missile Turrets, Spore Crawlers, Photon Cannons, Ravens, Overseers, or Observers.
Why do you get to see the detection radius for scans? I totally agree. 1) You can have many of these detectors, meaning there could be a lot of ugly lines everywhere, and they don't disappear after a set amount of time like scans do. 2) Scan is a scouting tool as well as a detector, and that's where this is most important. You know if your cloaked unit is detected (by scan or other detector) because things start shooting it. That's a normal interaction between units and is a gameplay thing. The scan texture not being as big as the sight given is a graphical/ui issue that adds uncertainty into the game. 3) Uncertainty isn't skill. The skill in reacting to a scan of your important tech structure comes from the decision of whether or not changing your tech would be wise and in knowing your opponent's likely reactions to what he saw. If you don't know if he saw it or not, it's a coinflippy clusterfuck. Starcraft thrives on vagueness. It's one of the reasons why Brood War was superior to Wings of Liberty, it's because people begged long and hard to make the game more about 'strategy', so all the really difficult mechanics were addressed. Heart of the Swarm simply takes this one step further, information is more clearly defined, easier to understand and utilize. From now on you do not have to get a feel for saturation numbers of for detection radius anymore. Blizzard now provides this information as input for your strategy. The problem is that strategy is rather boring. If you look at your typical game, then honestly most players play the same popular builds over and over again, since it's so easy to copy what successful players are doing. A lot of match-ups are quite trivial, especially zerg often 'just' has to turtle into brood lords and all the fuzzy feelings-based aspects to this game that allow players with superior game sense to do well are one by one eliminated just so that eventually everyone can execute the same rote strategy at the same level. I honestly think it's bizarre the community is still so obsessed with strategy, it's as if so many have so little respect for all the beauty inherent to paying attention to all the small little details and utilizing them correctly. There is so much more to this game than just strategy and unit control, it really is so much about a certain mystique where frequently you have no solid information and have to depend on visual processing or pattern recognition (i.e. game sense or 'feel'). Making everything clear and streamlined honestly won't make the game any more fun, it will just allow you to better execute your 2 base timing attacks without being bothered by the fact you have little experience with the game and lack essential cognitive skills. Imagine if during the development of DOTA2 Valve had decided that the game really needed to be about picking hero compositions, item choices and lane divisions. They could remove all skill-intensive abilities of the game (last kills, denying, aimed shots) so that it would again be more about strategy, all to reward the smarter player. But why is someone with knowledge and analytical skills superior to someone with the superior cognitive abilities required to excel at unit control and economy management? Most of that is typical "sc2 isn't bw!!" stuff. That's your own feeling on what the game should be. Personally, I have nothing against mechanics (and I think it's important to include them in the game, and wouldn't necessarily be against more in SC2) but I despise limiting the player with a bad ui. The UI, as with every other UI, should be a clear and responsive way for the user to interface with the game. The thing with scan is it's not a unit. That's the main sticking point and the thing people aren't taking into consideration. If an overseer comes into your base to scout, it's down to your knowledge of the overseer's vision range so you know what it saw. The other player controls the unit to try to get the information they want, and you control space with your units to deny it. It's a unit with which you can interact. It's a gameplay thing. Scans are not like that at all, and that's why I took issue with them being compared to units in-game. There's nothing you can do to stop a scan going off in your base. There's no "good play" involved in stopping them; they'll see what they're going to see whether you're MVP or a bronze scrub. Sure you can hide stuff, but that's nothing to do with scans. That's why scans should have their vision range shown. If you can't use good play to deny its vision, you should have knowledge of what it saw, because after it fires it's a UI thing, not a gameplay thing. To clarify, because I know this is wordy: If an overlord/overseer/obs/whatever gets in your base and scouts a vital tech structure, it's your own fault for not denying that. There's a strategic process of placing units which can deny scouts in the right place, and a mechanical process of controlling your units to do the actual denying (stutterstepping marines/stalkers/queens to shoot down the overlord, for example). If you don't care what they see, you made a strategic decision to not deny them and that's fine too. Or you're bad, which is also fine because it's something you can improve on. If a scan goes off in your base, not only is it no longer controlled by the terran that fired it off, it's static and you can't deny it. It makes sense to show what it sees. This is only talking about scans as a scout. Scans as a detector are similar. Edit: And please don't compare game mechanics between sc2 an dota2, they're completely different games and as such gameplay comparisons are at best invalid and at worst a waste of everyone's time.
Not being able to stop it is a tradeoff for:
1. The scan being temporary. The detection is temporary. And you essentially give up 300 minerals to use it every time.
2. The scan not having any guarantee of seeing anything important. It's guesswork, so you can take the time to put tech structures where the Terran is less likely to scan.
The tradeoffs are enough so that at the very least you can take the time to learn the range of the scan. Observers have the tradeoff for being Cloaked, I guess we should make the cloak easier to see so it's easier to take them down I guess.
Most Terran players would trade Observers for Scans any day of the week. Most Zergs would probably do the same for Overseers. Yet you don't get to see the Observer's detection and vision range. There is no more point in taking less skill out of the game to deal with Scan.
I'd argue that's really what it comes down to. Learning the range of the scan is a comparable skill to learning to spot the distortion of cloaked Observers. Learning the range of the scan is the easier skill to learn, yet that's the one Blizzard chooses to make easier.
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On September 06 2012 11:22 FataLe wrote:I'm a Protoss player and I hate this change. It didn't need to happen and it's just one more thing to add to the easierness? of the game.
Easierness?? Honestly: By making the rules of a game easier to understand, you don't make winning easier!
Football has simple rules, but the effort it takes to win is always determined by the opposition.
The game should display information to the player adequatly. With this, players can now see the radius. This was always intended, otherwise: Why should the enemy see you scanner sweep at all?
Blizzard has balanced this (very strong) ability in the mindset, that the opponent can see what is scanned.
I honestly have no idea why some people here act so ultra-conservative. SC1 is still there to play, if you really think extrem hard to control interface is good for the game.
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On September 07 2012 05:16 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 04:53 SgtCoDFish wrote:On September 07 2012 04:39 Moonsalt wrote:On September 06 2012 11:38 dabom88 wrote:
You can't see how far the detection radius is for Missile Turrets, Spore Crawlers, Photon Cannons, Ravens, Overseers, or Observers.
Why do you get to see the detection radius for scans? I totally agree. 1) You can have many of these detectors, meaning there could be a lot of ugly lines everywhere, and they don't disappear after a set amount of time like scans do. 2) Scan is a scouting tool as well as a detector, and that's where this is most important. You know if your cloaked unit is detected (by scan or other detector) because things start shooting it. That's a normal interaction between units and is a gameplay thing. The scan texture not being as big as the sight given is a graphical/ui issue that adds uncertainty into the game. 3) Uncertainty isn't skill. The skill in reacting to a scan of your important tech structure comes from the decision of whether or not changing your tech would be wise and in knowing your opponent's likely reactions to what he saw. If you don't know if he saw it or not, it's a coinflippy clusterfuck. Starcraft thrives on vagueness. It's one of the reasons why Brood War was superior to Wings of Liberty, it's because people begged long and hard to make the game more about 'strategy', so all the really difficult mechanics were addressed. Heart of the Swarm simply takes this one step further, information is more clearly defined, easier to understand and utilize. From now on you do not have to get a feel for saturation numbers of for detection radius anymore. Blizzard now provides this information as input for your strategy. The problem is that strategy is rather boring. If you look at your typical game, then honestly most players play the same popular builds over and over again, since it's so easy to copy what successful players are doing. A lot of match-ups are quite trivial, especially zerg often 'just' has to turtle into brood lords and all the fuzzy feelings-based aspects to this game that allow players with superior game sense to do well are one by one eliminated just so that eventually everyone can execute the same rote strategy at the same level. I honestly think it's bizarre the community is still so obsessed with strategy, it's as if so many have so little respect for all the beauty inherent to paying attention to all the small little details and utilizing them correctly. There is so much more to this game than just strategy and unit control, it really is so much about a certain mystique where frequently you have no solid information and have to depend on visual processing or pattern recognition (i.e. game sense or 'feel'). Making everything clear and streamlined honestly won't make the game any more fun, it will just allow you to better execute your 2 base timing attacks without being bothered by the fact you have little experience with the game and lack essential cognitive skills. Imagine if during the development of DOTA2 Valve had decided that the game really needed to be about picking hero compositions, item choices and lane divisions. They could remove all skill-intensive abilities of the game (last kills, denying, aimed shots) so that it would again be more about strategy, all to reward the smarter player. But why is someone with knowledge and analytical skills superior to someone with the superior cognitive abilities required to excel at unit control and economy management?
This
When will people realize that it's not THIS change in particular that is bothering us, it's the actual direction that blizzard is taking with the overall difficulty of the game? This thing in particulars makes a difference between someone who knows the actual scan radius, and someone who don't, so the guy who actually do know the radius has an advantage. Know how we call this? Skill cap.
Same thing with workers rallied to minerals doing auto mining at WoL... yes the BW war is tedious, but it rewards the guy with the extra apm to go back to his nexus faster to tell the new probes to mines. It actually makes a difference where in WoL, that difference is gone.
I said earlier in the thread that this game is mostly about build order wins, compared to actual mechanics. That is a little more FINE in BO5 and BO7, but guess what? ladder are BO1 (they never thought about implementing a BO3 and BO5 ladder option though... but that arcade garbage is fine..)
There is just overall frustration with many "hardcore" starcraft fans, who don't really want BW2, they just want a real successor to Brood War. Please try to understand this.. if we wanted an easy game, we'd play MOBA. I'm tired of seeing maxed out armies deciding the outcome of the game in one big fight, I want ingame harassment, lots of bases, and no 1 base allin or 2 base timings.
And that frustration is multiplicated when we know Blizzard DOESN'T listen.
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On September 07 2012 07:20 Patate wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 05:16 Grumbels wrote:On September 07 2012 04:53 SgtCoDFish wrote:On September 07 2012 04:39 Moonsalt wrote:On September 06 2012 11:38 dabom88 wrote:
You can't see how far the detection radius is for Missile Turrets, Spore Crawlers, Photon Cannons, Ravens, Overseers, or Observers.
Why do you get to see the detection radius for scans? I totally agree. 1) You can have many of these detectors, meaning there could be a lot of ugly lines everywhere, and they don't disappear after a set amount of time like scans do. 2) Scan is a scouting tool as well as a detector, and that's where this is most important. You know if your cloaked unit is detected (by scan or other detector) because things start shooting it. That's a normal interaction between units and is a gameplay thing. The scan texture not being as big as the sight given is a graphical/ui issue that adds uncertainty into the game. 3) Uncertainty isn't skill. The skill in reacting to a scan of your important tech structure comes from the decision of whether or not changing your tech would be wise and in knowing your opponent's likely reactions to what he saw. If you don't know if he saw it or not, it's a coinflippy clusterfuck. Starcraft thrives on vagueness. It's one of the reasons why Brood War was superior to Wings of Liberty, it's because people begged long and hard to make the game more about 'strategy', so all the really difficult mechanics were addressed. Heart of the Swarm simply takes this one step further, information is more clearly defined, easier to understand and utilize. From now on you do not have to get a feel for saturation numbers of for detection radius anymore. Blizzard now provides this information as input for your strategy. The problem is that strategy is rather boring. If you look at your typical game, then honestly most players play the same popular builds over and over again, since it's so easy to copy what successful players are doing. A lot of match-ups are quite trivial, especially zerg often 'just' has to turtle into brood lords and all the fuzzy feelings-based aspects to this game that allow players with superior game sense to do well are one by one eliminated just so that eventually everyone can execute the same rote strategy at the same level. I honestly think it's bizarre the community is still so obsessed with strategy, it's as if so many have so little respect for all the beauty inherent to paying attention to all the small little details and utilizing them correctly. There is so much more to this game than just strategy and unit control, it really is so much about a certain mystique where frequently you have no solid information and have to depend on visual processing or pattern recognition (i.e. game sense or 'feel'). Making everything clear and streamlined honestly won't make the game any more fun, it will just allow you to better execute your 2 base timing attacks without being bothered by the fact you have little experience with the game and lack essential cognitive skills. Imagine if during the development of DOTA2 Valve had decided that the game really needed to be about picking hero compositions, item choices and lane divisions. They could remove all skill-intensive abilities of the game (last kills, denying, aimed shots) so that it would again be more about strategy, all to reward the smarter player. But why is someone with knowledge and analytical skills superior to someone with the superior cognitive abilities required to excel at unit control and economy management? This When will people realize that it's not THIS change in particular that is bothering us, it's the actual direction that blizzard is taking with the overall difficulty of the game? This thing in particulars makes a difference between someone who knows the actual scan radius, and someone who don't, so the guy who actually do know the radius has an advantage. Know how we call this? Skill cap. Same thing with workers rallied to minerals doing auto mining at WoL... yes the BW war is tedious, but it rewards the guy with the extra apm to go back to his nexus faster to tell the new probes to mines. It actually makes a difference where in WoL, that difference is gone. I said earlier in the thread that this game is mostly about build order wins, compared to actual mechanics. That is a little more FINE in BO5 and BO7, but guess what? ladder are BO1 (they never thought about implementing a BO3 and BO5 ladder option though... but that arcade garbage is fine..) There is just overall frustration with many "hardcore" starcraft fans, who don't really want BW2, they just want a real successor to Brood War. Please try to understand this.. if we wanted an easy game, we'd play MOBA. I'm tired of seeing maxed out armies deciding the outcome of the game in one big fight, I want ingame harassment, lots of bases, and no 1 base allin or 2 base timings. And that frustration is multiplicated when we know Blizzard DOESN'T listen.
Showing more game information isn't going to make the game "easier" at a level that matters. It's going to make the game less "volatile". I know that volatility can be an exciting factor, but some people would rather see the best play be rewarded.
And being a "hardcore" Starcraft fan doesn't necessitate that we all feel the same way you do. We can disagree.
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Northern Ireland25875 Posts
On September 07 2012 07:30 urashimakt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 07:20 Patate wrote:On September 07 2012 05:16 Grumbels wrote:On September 07 2012 04:53 SgtCoDFish wrote:On September 07 2012 04:39 Moonsalt wrote:On September 06 2012 11:38 dabom88 wrote:
You can't see how far the detection radius is for Missile Turrets, Spore Crawlers, Photon Cannons, Ravens, Overseers, or Observers.
Why do you get to see the detection radius for scans? I totally agree. 1) You can have many of these detectors, meaning there could be a lot of ugly lines everywhere, and they don't disappear after a set amount of time like scans do. 2) Scan is a scouting tool as well as a detector, and that's where this is most important. You know if your cloaked unit is detected (by scan or other detector) because things start shooting it. That's a normal interaction between units and is a gameplay thing. The scan texture not being as big as the sight given is a graphical/ui issue that adds uncertainty into the game. 3) Uncertainty isn't skill. The skill in reacting to a scan of your important tech structure comes from the decision of whether or not changing your tech would be wise and in knowing your opponent's likely reactions to what he saw. If you don't know if he saw it or not, it's a coinflippy clusterfuck. Starcraft thrives on vagueness. It's one of the reasons why Brood War was superior to Wings of Liberty, it's because people begged long and hard to make the game more about 'strategy', so all the really difficult mechanics were addressed. Heart of the Swarm simply takes this one step further, information is more clearly defined, easier to understand and utilize. From now on you do not have to get a feel for saturation numbers of for detection radius anymore. Blizzard now provides this information as input for your strategy. The problem is that strategy is rather boring. If you look at your typical game, then honestly most players play the same popular builds over and over again, since it's so easy to copy what successful players are doing. A lot of match-ups are quite trivial, especially zerg often 'just' has to turtle into brood lords and all the fuzzy feelings-based aspects to this game that allow players with superior game sense to do well are one by one eliminated just so that eventually everyone can execute the same rote strategy at the same level. I honestly think it's bizarre the community is still so obsessed with strategy, it's as if so many have so little respect for all the beauty inherent to paying attention to all the small little details and utilizing them correctly. There is so much more to this game than just strategy and unit control, it really is so much about a certain mystique where frequently you have no solid information and have to depend on visual processing or pattern recognition (i.e. game sense or 'feel'). Making everything clear and streamlined honestly won't make the game any more fun, it will just allow you to better execute your 2 base timing attacks without being bothered by the fact you have little experience with the game and lack essential cognitive skills. Imagine if during the development of DOTA2 Valve had decided that the game really needed to be about picking hero compositions, item choices and lane divisions. They could remove all skill-intensive abilities of the game (last kills, denying, aimed shots) so that it would again be more about strategy, all to reward the smarter player. But why is someone with knowledge and analytical skills superior to someone with the superior cognitive abilities required to excel at unit control and economy management? This When will people realize that it's not THIS change in particular that is bothering us, it's the actual direction that blizzard is taking with the overall difficulty of the game? This thing in particulars makes a difference between someone who knows the actual scan radius, and someone who don't, so the guy who actually do know the radius has an advantage. Know how we call this? Skill cap. Same thing with workers rallied to minerals doing auto mining at WoL... yes the BW war is tedious, but it rewards the guy with the extra apm to go back to his nexus faster to tell the new probes to mines. It actually makes a difference where in WoL, that difference is gone. I said earlier in the thread that this game is mostly about build order wins, compared to actual mechanics. That is a little more FINE in BO5 and BO7, but guess what? ladder are BO1 (they never thought about implementing a BO3 and BO5 ladder option though... but that arcade garbage is fine..) There is just overall frustration with many "hardcore" starcraft fans, who don't really want BW2, they just want a real successor to Brood War. Please try to understand this.. if we wanted an easy game, we'd play MOBA. I'm tired of seeing maxed out armies deciding the outcome of the game in one big fight, I want ingame harassment, lots of bases, and no 1 base allin or 2 base timings. And that frustration is multiplicated when we know Blizzard DOESN'T listen. Showing more game information isn't going to make the game "easier" at a level that matters. It's going to make the game less "volatile". I know that volatility can be an exciting factor, but some people would rather see the best play be rewarded. And being a "hardcore" Starcraft fan doesn't necessitate that we all feel the same way you do. We can disagree.
It's not that, it feeds back into how the game is designed. There is a lot more emphasis on hard unit counters, so perfect information will make for bad games. For example ghosts for templar play, or vikings vs collosi.
These kind of timing attacks generally exploit people being in the dark, and have a risk/reward aspect to them. While it's not an argument against the scan radius being visible, it's something that should be taken into account.
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On September 07 2012 07:30 urashimakt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 07:20 Patate wrote:On September 07 2012 05:16 Grumbels wrote:On September 07 2012 04:53 SgtCoDFish wrote:On September 07 2012 04:39 Moonsalt wrote:On September 06 2012 11:38 dabom88 wrote:
You can't see how far the detection radius is for Missile Turrets, Spore Crawlers, Photon Cannons, Ravens, Overseers, or Observers.
Why do you get to see the detection radius for scans? I totally agree. 1) You can have many of these detectors, meaning there could be a lot of ugly lines everywhere, and they don't disappear after a set amount of time like scans do. 2) Scan is a scouting tool as well as a detector, and that's where this is most important. You know if your cloaked unit is detected (by scan or other detector) because things start shooting it. That's a normal interaction between units and is a gameplay thing. The scan texture not being as big as the sight given is a graphical/ui issue that adds uncertainty into the game. 3) Uncertainty isn't skill. The skill in reacting to a scan of your important tech structure comes from the decision of whether or not changing your tech would be wise and in knowing your opponent's likely reactions to what he saw. If you don't know if he saw it or not, it's a coinflippy clusterfuck. Starcraft thrives on vagueness. It's one of the reasons why Brood War was superior to Wings of Liberty, it's because people begged long and hard to make the game more about 'strategy', so all the really difficult mechanics were addressed. Heart of the Swarm simply takes this one step further, information is more clearly defined, easier to understand and utilize. From now on you do not have to get a feel for saturation numbers of for detection radius anymore. Blizzard now provides this information as input for your strategy. The problem is that strategy is rather boring. If you look at your typical game, then honestly most players play the same popular builds over and over again, since it's so easy to copy what successful players are doing. A lot of match-ups are quite trivial, especially zerg often 'just' has to turtle into brood lords and all the fuzzy feelings-based aspects to this game that allow players with superior game sense to do well are one by one eliminated just so that eventually everyone can execute the same rote strategy at the same level. I honestly think it's bizarre the community is still so obsessed with strategy, it's as if so many have so little respect for all the beauty inherent to paying attention to all the small little details and utilizing them correctly. There is so much more to this game than just strategy and unit control, it really is so much about a certain mystique where frequently you have no solid information and have to depend on visual processing or pattern recognition (i.e. game sense or 'feel'). Making everything clear and streamlined honestly won't make the game any more fun, it will just allow you to better execute your 2 base timing attacks without being bothered by the fact you have little experience with the game and lack essential cognitive skills. Imagine if during the development of DOTA2 Valve had decided that the game really needed to be about picking hero compositions, item choices and lane divisions. They could remove all skill-intensive abilities of the game (last kills, denying, aimed shots) so that it would again be more about strategy, all to reward the smarter player. But why is someone with knowledge and analytical skills superior to someone with the superior cognitive abilities required to excel at unit control and economy management? This When will people realize that it's not THIS change in particular that is bothering us, it's the actual direction that blizzard is taking with the overall difficulty of the game? This thing in particulars makes a difference between someone who knows the actual scan radius, and someone who don't, so the guy who actually do know the radius has an advantage. Know how we call this? Skill cap. Same thing with workers rallied to minerals doing auto mining at WoL... yes the BW war is tedious, but it rewards the guy with the extra apm to go back to his nexus faster to tell the new probes to mines. It actually makes a difference where in WoL, that difference is gone. I said earlier in the thread that this game is mostly about build order wins, compared to actual mechanics. That is a little more FINE in BO5 and BO7, but guess what? ladder are BO1 (they never thought about implementing a BO3 and BO5 ladder option though... but that arcade garbage is fine..) There is just overall frustration with many "hardcore" starcraft fans, who don't really want BW2, they just want a real successor to Brood War. Please try to understand this.. if we wanted an easy game, we'd play MOBA. I'm tired of seeing maxed out armies deciding the outcome of the game in one big fight, I want ingame harassment, lots of bases, and no 1 base allin or 2 base timings. And that frustration is multiplicated when we know Blizzard DOESN'T listen. Showing more game information isn't going to make the game "easier" at a level that matters. It's going to make the game less "volatile". I know that volatility can be an exciting factor, but some people would rather see the best play be rewarded. And being a "hardcore" Starcraft fan doesn't necessitate that we all feel the same way you do. We can disagree.
I used the hardcore term as in "not casual".
This isn't showing more game information. A pro player should know up to where the scan is showing the map. Therefore, the one who knows it has an advantage.
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Please revert this change.
Being able to differentiate things like this are the subtle things that distinguish great players from amazing players. That's the amazing part of all it. Little things add up.
Blizzard taking these opportunities away is so disheartening, because it makes us know deep down inside that we can't have faith in the dev team. It's likely a bunch of white collar men who don't understand these things but are on the team because they have degrees, and Browder/Kim.
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On September 07 2012 08:29 monkybone wrote:
No, pro players do not know where the boundaries of the current scan is.
I think the criticism of this change has less to do with what it actually changes, and more with that it is actually a change. And people don't like changes.
Given that many "top zergs" hotkey their infestors with the rest of their army (everything on 1 key), a-move, and then have their infestors waddle by tanks I'd wager that they don't. There's a lot of things pro players don't do correctly.
The scan radius being visible to opponents is hand-holding, and a bad change. It stops people from being rewarded for their knowledge, and makes lesser players equal with smarter ones.
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On September 06 2012 12:03 Armada Vega wrote:
I disagree with this change and every bodies opinion on this matter so far. Zerg players and protoss players are cheering, while terrans are not. This change doesn't follow logic in my opinion, why is this applied to scans and not overlords and observers?.
-- What if terrans always new what overlords and observers saw and what they didn't see? How would everyone feel about this?
-- What if this followed logic and applied to all detectors? How would you feel if spore crawlers, overlords, overseers, observers and cannons now showed their radius, and the player would see the radius before they got in range of being detected. Now every player could always avoid everything, always.
If this change only effected terran scans, whats the reasoning behind it? A scan is a detection, why is there not a visible radius for all forms of detection?
As a Terran player, in TvT I often left-click on my opponent's siege tanks to determine exactly the maximum range which he can fire(the game shows his dotted line). I can then creep my own siege tanks forward just inside his maximum range, make sure he has no air spotters, and go at it.
But for a long time I didn't know this. So I just creeped forward "by feel" and "knew" where his maximum range was.
I am guessing that zerg and protoss players can do that as well - to figure out "OK, where's his maximum range" and plan accordingly. Point I'm making here is, this "feature" has already applied to sieged up tanks. But nobody raised any fuss about it during beta.
So as a result I'm of two minds regarding this. Yes I agree that it's more "strategic" to both players to know exactly who saw what. At the same time...it's slightly arbitary in the sense that it, so far, is only applying to Terran technologies.
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I would like blizzard to change observers that are still to be visible in the sense that i can see its there, but have to scan to kill it. That why i can be "strategic" and make an "informed" decision whether to pay the price and kill it or not. Otherwise its just "guessing" and "arbitrary", maybe the protoss is watching me the whole time, maybe not.
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On September 06 2012 17:06 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 14:06 teamamerica wrote:On September 06 2012 13:21 xeqwist wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 06 2012 13:02 PatouPower wrote:Well, this change was a bit retarded. There is no reason not to be able to know what has been scanned. I mean, for every unit, you can pretty much tell where their range ends and if they have or haven't seen your units. But that? Seriously, the scan animation is so small in comparison to the area, and only a small radius difference about what you think it sees and what it really sees can make a big difference on whether to stick with a strategy or not. I am not an expert on the subject, but I am pretty sure no pro on the planet can say for sure what is in the scanning range or not when it happens, especially in the heat of a game. Not being able to see the scan radius added absolutely nothing to the mechanics of the game (unlike auto-mining or the 1-button army selection), but it only added an element of "luck", "chance" or "hope" if you prefer, in the manner of "I hope he hasn't seen my dark shrine" or "I hope he hasn't seen my unit moving over there" in so many scenarios. Elements that add luck aren't skill based and aren't needed in SC2. As I mentioned above, you just can't be 100% sure where the scan ends, and that was always a big flaw about the spell. That being said, I find the the way they addressed the issue was a bit too drastic. What I would have done would have been to increase the scan animation to fill the whole detection range. That way, you can basically tell what the scans see, but you don't have ugly "rough" borders like the sensor tower's vision that basically make no sense and pulls away a little bit of the game (if that makes any sense?)... EDIT: On September 06 2012 13:01 Energizer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 12:14 FabledIntegral wrote:
Blegh. Might as well show how far siege tanks can shoot then. You mean.. like a circle with the center being the seige tank that shows the range it can shoot? + Show Spoiler +Nahhh, thats going to far... I don't think the opponent can see this radius; only the Terran player can. Only the sensor tower have this "mechanic" already implemented. You have the same range for the static defenses when you are placing them as well. According to your comparison, you say it like if the Terran player couldn't see how far his scan was able to see before, which is completely inaccurate. A player has always been able to see how far his own units are able to shoot; the problem here is about whether the opponent should be able to know exactly how far the scan can see. You realize that you can just click on your enemy's tanks to see its range, right..? Another winner! No you can only see your tank range. Or as an observer from 'everyone' perspective, you can see both. Nice sarcasm though! This thread is like a magnet for completely baseless statements about sc2. You can see your enemys tank range, ingame while playing. Just click on it. Haha its true!!!
Really? You sure?
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I also don't like this change
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I liked it at first but after seeing some points in this thread I kind of have to agree with the general consensus that it does remove a certain thrill factor from the game. My view has morphed from it being a good idea to being something more than unnecessary.
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