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Northern Ireland26918 Posts
On September 07 2012 07:30 urashimakt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 07:20 Patate wrote:On September 07 2012 05:16 Grumbels wrote:On September 07 2012 04:53 SgtCoDFish wrote:On September 07 2012 04:39 Moonsalt wrote:On September 06 2012 11:38 dabom88 wrote:
You can't see how far the detection radius is for Missile Turrets, Spore Crawlers, Photon Cannons, Ravens, Overseers, or Observers.
Why do you get to see the detection radius for scans? I totally agree. 1) You can have many of these detectors, meaning there could be a lot of ugly lines everywhere, and they don't disappear after a set amount of time like scans do. 2) Scan is a scouting tool as well as a detector, and that's where this is most important. You know if your cloaked unit is detected (by scan or other detector) because things start shooting it. That's a normal interaction between units and is a gameplay thing. The scan texture not being as big as the sight given is a graphical/ui issue that adds uncertainty into the game. 3) Uncertainty isn't skill. The skill in reacting to a scan of your important tech structure comes from the decision of whether or not changing your tech would be wise and in knowing your opponent's likely reactions to what he saw. If you don't know if he saw it or not, it's a coinflippy clusterfuck. Starcraft thrives on vagueness. It's one of the reasons why Brood War was superior to Wings of Liberty, it's because people begged long and hard to make the game more about 'strategy', so all the really difficult mechanics were addressed. Heart of the Swarm simply takes this one step further, information is more clearly defined, easier to understand and utilize. From now on you do not have to get a feel for saturation numbers of for detection radius anymore. Blizzard now provides this information as input for your strategy. The problem is that strategy is rather boring. If you look at your typical game, then honestly most players play the same popular builds over and over again, since it's so easy to copy what successful players are doing. A lot of match-ups are quite trivial, especially zerg often 'just' has to turtle into brood lords and all the fuzzy feelings-based aspects to this game that allow players with superior game sense to do well are one by one eliminated just so that eventually everyone can execute the same rote strategy at the same level. I honestly think it's bizarre the community is still so obsessed with strategy, it's as if so many have so little respect for all the beauty inherent to paying attention to all the small little details and utilizing them correctly. There is so much more to this game than just strategy and unit control, it really is so much about a certain mystique where frequently you have no solid information and have to depend on visual processing or pattern recognition (i.e. game sense or 'feel'). Making everything clear and streamlined honestly won't make the game any more fun, it will just allow you to better execute your 2 base timing attacks without being bothered by the fact you have little experience with the game and lack essential cognitive skills. Imagine if during the development of DOTA2 Valve had decided that the game really needed to be about picking hero compositions, item choices and lane divisions. They could remove all skill-intensive abilities of the game (last kills, denying, aimed shots) so that it would again be more about strategy, all to reward the smarter player. But why is someone with knowledge and analytical skills superior to someone with the superior cognitive abilities required to excel at unit control and economy management? This When will people realize that it's not THIS change in particular that is bothering us, it's the actual direction that blizzard is taking with the overall difficulty of the game? This thing in particulars makes a difference between someone who knows the actual scan radius, and someone who don't, so the guy who actually do know the radius has an advantage. Know how we call this? Skill cap. Same thing with workers rallied to minerals doing auto mining at WoL... yes the BW war is tedious, but it rewards the guy with the extra apm to go back to his nexus faster to tell the new probes to mines. It actually makes a difference where in WoL, that difference is gone. I said earlier in the thread that this game is mostly about build order wins, compared to actual mechanics. That is a little more FINE in BO5 and BO7, but guess what? ladder are BO1 (they never thought about implementing a BO3 and BO5 ladder option though... but that arcade garbage is fine..) There is just overall frustration with many "hardcore" starcraft fans, who don't really want BW2, they just want a real successor to Brood War. Please try to understand this.. if we wanted an easy game, we'd play MOBA. I'm tired of seeing maxed out armies deciding the outcome of the game in one big fight, I want ingame harassment, lots of bases, and no 1 base allin or 2 base timings. And that frustration is multiplicated when we know Blizzard DOESN'T listen. Showing more game information isn't going to make the game "easier" at a level that matters. It's going to make the game less "volatile". I know that volatility can be an exciting factor, but some people would rather see the best play be rewarded. And being a "hardcore" Starcraft fan doesn't necessitate that we all feel the same way you do. We can disagree.
It's not that, it feeds back into how the game is designed. There is a lot more emphasis on hard unit counters, so perfect information will make for bad games. For example ghosts for templar play, or vikings vs collosi.
These kind of timing attacks generally exploit people being in the dark, and have a risk/reward aspect to them. While it's not an argument against the scan radius being visible, it's something that should be taken into account.
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On September 07 2012 07:30 urashimakt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 07:20 Patate wrote:On September 07 2012 05:16 Grumbels wrote:On September 07 2012 04:53 SgtCoDFish wrote:On September 07 2012 04:39 Moonsalt wrote:On September 06 2012 11:38 dabom88 wrote:
You can't see how far the detection radius is for Missile Turrets, Spore Crawlers, Photon Cannons, Ravens, Overseers, or Observers.
Why do you get to see the detection radius for scans? I totally agree. 1) You can have many of these detectors, meaning there could be a lot of ugly lines everywhere, and they don't disappear after a set amount of time like scans do. 2) Scan is a scouting tool as well as a detector, and that's where this is most important. You know if your cloaked unit is detected (by scan or other detector) because things start shooting it. That's a normal interaction between units and is a gameplay thing. The scan texture not being as big as the sight given is a graphical/ui issue that adds uncertainty into the game. 3) Uncertainty isn't skill. The skill in reacting to a scan of your important tech structure comes from the decision of whether or not changing your tech would be wise and in knowing your opponent's likely reactions to what he saw. If you don't know if he saw it or not, it's a coinflippy clusterfuck. Starcraft thrives on vagueness. It's one of the reasons why Brood War was superior to Wings of Liberty, it's because people begged long and hard to make the game more about 'strategy', so all the really difficult mechanics were addressed. Heart of the Swarm simply takes this one step further, information is more clearly defined, easier to understand and utilize. From now on you do not have to get a feel for saturation numbers of for detection radius anymore. Blizzard now provides this information as input for your strategy. The problem is that strategy is rather boring. If you look at your typical game, then honestly most players play the same popular builds over and over again, since it's so easy to copy what successful players are doing. A lot of match-ups are quite trivial, especially zerg often 'just' has to turtle into brood lords and all the fuzzy feelings-based aspects to this game that allow players with superior game sense to do well are one by one eliminated just so that eventually everyone can execute the same rote strategy at the same level. I honestly think it's bizarre the community is still so obsessed with strategy, it's as if so many have so little respect for all the beauty inherent to paying attention to all the small little details and utilizing them correctly. There is so much more to this game than just strategy and unit control, it really is so much about a certain mystique where frequently you have no solid information and have to depend on visual processing or pattern recognition (i.e. game sense or 'feel'). Making everything clear and streamlined honestly won't make the game any more fun, it will just allow you to better execute your 2 base timing attacks without being bothered by the fact you have little experience with the game and lack essential cognitive skills. Imagine if during the development of DOTA2 Valve had decided that the game really needed to be about picking hero compositions, item choices and lane divisions. They could remove all skill-intensive abilities of the game (last kills, denying, aimed shots) so that it would again be more about strategy, all to reward the smarter player. But why is someone with knowledge and analytical skills superior to someone with the superior cognitive abilities required to excel at unit control and economy management? This When will people realize that it's not THIS change in particular that is bothering us, it's the actual direction that blizzard is taking with the overall difficulty of the game? This thing in particulars makes a difference between someone who knows the actual scan radius, and someone who don't, so the guy who actually do know the radius has an advantage. Know how we call this? Skill cap. Same thing with workers rallied to minerals doing auto mining at WoL... yes the BW war is tedious, but it rewards the guy with the extra apm to go back to his nexus faster to tell the new probes to mines. It actually makes a difference where in WoL, that difference is gone. I said earlier in the thread that this game is mostly about build order wins, compared to actual mechanics. That is a little more FINE in BO5 and BO7, but guess what? ladder are BO1 (they never thought about implementing a BO3 and BO5 ladder option though... but that arcade garbage is fine..) There is just overall frustration with many "hardcore" starcraft fans, who don't really want BW2, they just want a real successor to Brood War. Please try to understand this.. if we wanted an easy game, we'd play MOBA. I'm tired of seeing maxed out armies deciding the outcome of the game in one big fight, I want ingame harassment, lots of bases, and no 1 base allin or 2 base timings. And that frustration is multiplicated when we know Blizzard DOESN'T listen. Showing more game information isn't going to make the game "easier" at a level that matters. It's going to make the game less "volatile". I know that volatility can be an exciting factor, but some people would rather see the best play be rewarded. And being a "hardcore" Starcraft fan doesn't necessitate that we all feel the same way you do. We can disagree.
I used the hardcore term as in "not casual".
This isn't showing more game information. A pro player should know up to where the scan is showing the map. Therefore, the one who knows it has an advantage.
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Please revert this change.
Being able to differentiate things like this are the subtle things that distinguish great players from amazing players. That's the amazing part of all it. Little things add up.
Blizzard taking these opportunities away is so disheartening, because it makes us know deep down inside that we can't have faith in the dev team. It's likely a bunch of white collar men who don't understand these things but are on the team because they have degrees, and Browder/Kim.
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On September 07 2012 08:29 monkybone wrote:
No, pro players do not know where the boundaries of the current scan is.
I think the criticism of this change has less to do with what it actually changes, and more with that it is actually a change. And people don't like changes.
Given that many "top zergs" hotkey their infestors with the rest of their army (everything on 1 key), a-move, and then have their infestors waddle by tanks I'd wager that they don't. There's a lot of things pro players don't do correctly.
The scan radius being visible to opponents is hand-holding, and a bad change. It stops people from being rewarded for their knowledge, and makes lesser players equal with smarter ones.
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On September 06 2012 12:03 Armada Vega wrote:
I disagree with this change and every bodies opinion on this matter so far. Zerg players and protoss players are cheering, while terrans are not. This change doesn't follow logic in my opinion, why is this applied to scans and not overlords and observers?.
-- What if terrans always new what overlords and observers saw and what they didn't see? How would everyone feel about this?
-- What if this followed logic and applied to all detectors? How would you feel if spore crawlers, overlords, overseers, observers and cannons now showed their radius, and the player would see the radius before they got in range of being detected. Now every player could always avoid everything, always.
If this change only effected terran scans, whats the reasoning behind it? A scan is a detection, why is there not a visible radius for all forms of detection?
As a Terran player, in TvT I often left-click on my opponent's siege tanks to determine exactly the maximum range which he can fire(the game shows his dotted line). I can then creep my own siege tanks forward just inside his maximum range, make sure he has no air spotters, and go at it.
But for a long time I didn't know this. So I just creeped forward "by feel" and "knew" where his maximum range was.
I am guessing that zerg and protoss players can do that as well - to figure out "OK, where's his maximum range" and plan accordingly. Point I'm making here is, this "feature" has already applied to sieged up tanks. But nobody raised any fuss about it during beta.
So as a result I'm of two minds regarding this. Yes I agree that it's more "strategic" to both players to know exactly who saw what. At the same time...it's slightly arbitary in the sense that it, so far, is only applying to Terran technologies.
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I would like blizzard to change observers that are still to be visible in the sense that i can see its there, but have to scan to kill it. That why i can be "strategic" and make an "informed" decision whether to pay the price and kill it or not. Otherwise its just "guessing" and "arbitrary", maybe the protoss is watching me the whole time, maybe not.
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On September 06 2012 17:06 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 14:06 teamamerica wrote:On September 06 2012 13:21 xeqwist wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 06 2012 13:02 PatouPower wrote:Well, this change was a bit retarded. There is no reason not to be able to know what has been scanned. I mean, for every unit, you can pretty much tell where their range ends and if they have or haven't seen your units. But that? Seriously, the scan animation is so small in comparison to the area, and only a small radius difference about what you think it sees and what it really sees can make a big difference on whether to stick with a strategy or not. I am not an expert on the subject, but I am pretty sure no pro on the planet can say for sure what is in the scanning range or not when it happens, especially in the heat of a game. Not being able to see the scan radius added absolutely nothing to the mechanics of the game (unlike auto-mining or the 1-button army selection), but it only added an element of "luck", "chance" or "hope" if you prefer, in the manner of "I hope he hasn't seen my dark shrine" or "I hope he hasn't seen my unit moving over there" in so many scenarios. Elements that add luck aren't skill based and aren't needed in SC2. As I mentioned above, you just can't be 100% sure where the scan ends, and that was always a big flaw about the spell. That being said, I find the the way they addressed the issue was a bit too drastic. What I would have done would have been to increase the scan animation to fill the whole detection range. That way, you can basically tell what the scans see, but you don't have ugly "rough" borders like the sensor tower's vision that basically make no sense and pulls away a little bit of the game (if that makes any sense?)... EDIT: On September 06 2012 13:01 Energizer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 12:14 FabledIntegral wrote:
Blegh. Might as well show how far siege tanks can shoot then. You mean.. like a circle with the center being the seige tank that shows the range it can shoot? + Show Spoiler +Nahhh, thats going to far... I don't think the opponent can see this radius; only the Terran player can. Only the sensor tower have this "mechanic" already implemented. You have the same range for the static defenses when you are placing them as well. According to your comparison, you say it like if the Terran player couldn't see how far his scan was able to see before, which is completely inaccurate. A player has always been able to see how far his own units are able to shoot; the problem here is about whether the opponent should be able to know exactly how far the scan can see. You realize that you can just click on your enemy's tanks to see its range, right..? Another winner! No you can only see your tank range. Or as an observer from 'everyone' perspective, you can see both. Nice sarcasm though! This thread is like a magnet for completely baseless statements about sc2. You can see your enemys tank range, ingame while playing. Just click on it. Haha its true!!!
Really? You sure?
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I also don't like this change
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I liked it at first but after seeing some points in this thread I kind of have to agree with the general consensus that it does remove a certain thrill factor from the game. My view has morphed from it being a good idea to being something more than unnecessary.
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