|
If Warhound isn't massively redesigned (not just buffed/nerfed), it will be a sad day for Terran mech and Starcraft 2.
The Warhound could provide a cool function of protecting siege tanks from immortals - but having an autocast spell is just...bad, and it's honestly too fast and too good - why should it be stuck protecting something when all you need is to move out with Battle Hellions, Thors and Warhounds?
It needs to be slowed, and haywire missile needs to turn into some sort of cool-down option and something you select to use on an individual unit to help against immortals but not be the most boring unit ever.
|
On September 06 2012 10:46 DrowSwordsman wrote:
If Warhound isn't massively redesigned (not just buffed/nerfed), it will be a sad day for Terran mech and Starcraft 2.
The Warhound could provide a cool function of protecting siege tanks from immortals - but having an autocast spell is just...bad, and it's honestly too fast and too good - why should it be stuck protecting something when all you need is to move out with Battle Hellions, Thors and Warhounds?
It needs to be slowed, and haywire missile needs to turn into some sort of cool-down option and something you select to use on an individual unit to help against immortals but not be the most boring unit ever.
Fuckin hilarious to see stalkers running away from warhounds and being shot by haywire missiles the entire time. And by hilarious I mean absolutely retarded. Auto fire while walking and with a longer range than the normal attack? Lolz.
|
On September 06 2012 10:08 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
There is no question, it is the "colossus" for Terran. No it doesn't have the range, nor does it have the same overall goal but basically it is "I attack, I move it back, I attack again" T.T mech is about siege lines and positioning, you win by dominating them like chess, not massing this ball together and pushing through. Mech wins becuase it is stronger stationary, not because it is stronger mobile T.T
It's weird to think about; I had no problem with simple micro units (as you say, you just attack with them or move them back) in the past in both BW and War3, but they really make SC2 more lackluster for some reason. Maybe it's just the better pathing, the smaller unit size, or the rapidity with which things die, but this type of micro doesn't entertain me nearly as much in SC2.
|
Zergs and Protoss have a good number of very good A + move units (some of them even require less micro than the warhound). Is that a reason to give terran a good A+move unit? Definitely not. However, a unit like the Warhound may attract more players to the terran race, which is something that needs to happen rather soon. This is sad, but a reason why Terran is losing players is because of how micro intensive it is. The Warhound can make the race more manageable for a lot of players. I know that from the perspective of top players this isn't reason enough to add this unit, but from the perspective of lower league players it is a good reason, and blizzard may be sensitive to it.
|
On September 06 2012 10:37 LgNKami wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 10:31 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On September 06 2012 10:24 LgNKami wrote:
Dont mean to start an argument but...
Isn't mech a deathball in general? You sit behind tanks, turrets, PF's, and sensor towers until you have a maxed out deathball and then you move out.
sure you siege and unsiege every now and then but in general its just attack move. There are no spells to cast, no real micro besides siege and unsiege, and the person that makes a mistake first loses the game.
Just playing devils advocate. I dunno how you cam to this conclusion but I will argue from a BW perspective leading into SC2 In BW mech was relatively about positioning, you cut the map with "less" units that could hold positions against bigger armies and then eventually you either win the war of attrition or you create a big enough army to push (usually leap frog) across the map and win. In SC2 mech has turned a lot more into a "deathball" and it kind of defeats the purpose mainly because tanks a) can't hold the positions they could in BW against armies that are frankly stronger than BW armies and b) you don't have positional mines (not these new stupid mines) that can hold areas for long periods of time so that protoss would have to clear the fields before moving foward giving you time to reposition etc etc. Now with SC2 mech, it's going from a mix between "positional" and "deathball" to pure deathball, who would make tanks in TvP and if you do it won't be many because they blow and then you'll just get this giant ball of warhound/batltehellion/thor/scvs and move around the map... T.T thats what im saying though. in sc2 whenever I see anyone play mech, they play "positional" mech until they max out and then just attack move. I have yet to see a full out positional mech game. Even in the GSL. If we were talking Marine Tank, that would be completely different but only in TvT as marine tank isn't an option vs toss and its starting to die out vs zerg as people are starting to use Mech or pure bio.
Ok well I agree, the "tank" is the issue here because it does like 30-35 dmg? You get to 100 shot a colossus down, in BW it was 2 shot on 3-4 clumped dragoons but in SC2 you'd be lucky to kill a stalker with that many shots...
I really don't know though, they're taking the game in the wrong direction though with mech and turning it into the 200/200 protoss deathball with humans instead of aliens.
I feel like the longevity of the game will be what kills esports, not the industry. It'd be like having a professional league based around checkers or something, there are only so many "balanced" moves you can make ...
|
Leave them alone. I want to win some games in Hots
|
On September 06 2012 10:55 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 10:37 LgNKami wrote:On September 06 2012 10:31 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On September 06 2012 10:24 LgNKami wrote:
Dont mean to start an argument but...
Isn't mech a deathball in general? You sit behind tanks, turrets, PF's, and sensor towers until you have a maxed out deathball and then you move out.
sure you siege and unsiege every now and then but in general its just attack move. There are no spells to cast, no real micro besides siege and unsiege, and the person that makes a mistake first loses the game.
Just playing devils advocate. I dunno how you cam to this conclusion but I will argue from a BW perspective leading into SC2 In BW mech was relatively about positioning, you cut the map with "less" units that could hold positions against bigger armies and then eventually you either win the war of attrition or you create a big enough army to push (usually leap frog) across the map and win. In SC2 mech has turned a lot more into a "deathball" and it kind of defeats the purpose mainly because tanks a) can't hold the positions they could in BW against armies that are frankly stronger than BW armies and b) you don't have positional mines (not these new stupid mines) that can hold areas for long periods of time so that protoss would have to clear the fields before moving foward giving you time to reposition etc etc. Now with SC2 mech, it's going from a mix between "positional" and "deathball" to pure deathball, who would make tanks in TvP and if you do it won't be many because they blow and then you'll just get this giant ball of warhound/batltehellion/thor/scvs and move around the map... T.T thats what im saying though. in sc2 whenever I see anyone play mech, they play "positional" mech until they max out and then just attack move. I have yet to see a full out positional mech game. Even in the GSL. If we were talking Marine Tank, that would be completely different but only in TvT as marine tank isn't an option vs toss and its starting to die out vs zerg as people are starting to use Mech or pure bio. Ok well I agree, the "tank" is the issue here because it does like 30-35 dmg? You get to 100 shot a colossus down, in BW it was 2 shot on 3-4 clumped dragoons but in SC2 you'd be lucky to kill a stalker with that many shots... I really don't know though, they're taking the game in the wrong direction though with mech and turning it into the 200/200 protoss deathball with humans instead of aliens. I feel like the longevity of the game will be what kills esports, not the industry. It'd be like having a professional league based around checkers or something, there are only so many "balanced" moves you can make ...
That's why we make maps.
|
On September 06 2012 11:00 EatThePath wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 10:55 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On September 06 2012 10:37 LgNKami wrote:On September 06 2012 10:31 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On September 06 2012 10:24 LgNKami wrote:
Dont mean to start an argument but...
Isn't mech a deathball in general? You sit behind tanks, turrets, PF's, and sensor towers until you have a maxed out deathball and then you move out.
sure you siege and unsiege every now and then but in general its just attack move. There are no spells to cast, no real micro besides siege and unsiege, and the person that makes a mistake first loses the game.
Just playing devils advocate. I dunno how you cam to this conclusion but I will argue from a BW perspective leading into SC2 In BW mech was relatively about positioning, you cut the map with "less" units that could hold positions against bigger armies and then eventually you either win the war of attrition or you create a big enough army to push (usually leap frog) across the map and win. In SC2 mech has turned a lot more into a "deathball" and it kind of defeats the purpose mainly because tanks a) can't hold the positions they could in BW against armies that are frankly stronger than BW armies and b) you don't have positional mines (not these new stupid mines) that can hold areas for long periods of time so that protoss would have to clear the fields before moving foward giving you time to reposition etc etc. Now with SC2 mech, it's going from a mix between "positional" and "deathball" to pure deathball, who would make tanks in TvP and if you do it won't be many because they blow and then you'll just get this giant ball of warhound/batltehellion/thor/scvs and move around the map... T.T thats what im saying though. in sc2 whenever I see anyone play mech, they play "positional" mech until they max out and then just attack move. I have yet to see a full out positional mech game. Even in the GSL. If we were talking Marine Tank, that would be completely different but only in TvT as marine tank isn't an option vs toss and its starting to die out vs zerg as people are starting to use Mech or pure bio. Ok well I agree, the "tank" is the issue here because it does like 30-35 dmg? You get to 100 shot a colossus down, in BW it was 2 shot on 3-4 clumped dragoons but in SC2 you'd be lucky to kill a stalker with that many shots... I really don't know though, they're taking the game in the wrong direction though with mech and turning it into the 200/200 protoss deathball with humans instead of aliens. I feel like the longevity of the game will be what kills esports, not the industry. It'd be like having a professional league based around checkers or something, there are only so many "balanced" moves you can make ... That's why we make maps.
What do you mean? Making maps won't increase the viablity of the tank... It may balance specific styles of play or races but in the long term if we just keep seeing "well he opened up FFE into stargate again while the zerg opened 3hatch into X again" for the first 10 minutes I can't see the interest staying. Maybe I'm biased because although BW had a lot of that, the viability of different styles and play were there because even tho they had "x counters y" that y could still be effective if used properly against the x unit. In this game, I made tank/marauder to counter your ultra army that actually transitioned in 30 seconds to a mass BL army? well let's start the next game ^^
|
would overlap with thor's role, and if you want mech to not have to get any vikings (if you want warhounds to do well against units like voids/carriers) then you could go pure mech (except maybe some ghosts), and blizz doesn't seem to want you to be able to go pure anymore (which is not a bad thing, since unit compositions are more diversified now and so terran can transition from 1 tech tree to another more easily -- example, look at bio in TvZ, you get tanks and usually vehicle attack, then when you max 3/3 on bio and you have 3/0 tanks you can start adding more and more mech as you get the defense upgrades too)
|
Whats the speed on warhounds?? I'm watching whitera's stream right now and it seems barely slower than a stalker o_O
|
The warhound is really poor at the moment too much hp, too much damage and all for 2 supply. The only thing that makes it any way balanced is that it can't shoot up but still it would take ages for muta to kill them and thors are still a thing so it means thor warhound is pretty much uncounterable at the moment. Like ive seen on the streams people try a lot of compositions, hydra ling, hydra roach, infestor swarmhost and a few hydra and none that ive seen can handle it. Broodlords are the only thing that works.
As for the design its very much 1a and I think terran of all of the races should get a unit with micro like an additional spellcaster or a unit that makes the skill ceiling higher than it is currently. As a Zerg player im happy with the choices they have given me and I believe the skill cap was raised for us but seeing what they did for Terran makes me kinda angry about the design choices they are making. It just seems like they wanted to make specific things viable in HoTS and gave a unit that took 15 minutes and they went cool ship it.
|
On September 06 2012 08:46 Zenbrez wrote:
Watching Drewbie rush Warhounds to (very easily and quickly) pick off Stephano's queens was a bit disheartening. They're strong as fu
Why shouldn't a 150/75 tier 2 attacking unit smash a tier 1 150 macro unit?
On September 06 2012 09:00 Shadow_Dog wrote:
PhD. Avilo going to work! But seriously though, yeah I was watching Ret's stream earlier and his roaches could not do anything to the mass of warhounds.
Why shouldn't a 150/75 tier 2 unit smash a 75/25 tier 1.5 unit?
Has Z or P tried any of there new junk? Seems like all new units are OP...
On September 06 2012 11:06 FlukyS wrote:
As for the design its very much 1a and I think terran of all of the races should get a unit with micro like an additional spellcaster or a unit that makes the skill ceiling higher than it is currently. As a Zerg player im happy with the choices they have given me and I believe the skill cap was raised for us but seeing what they did for Terran makes me kinda angry about the design choices they are making. It just seems like they wanted to make specific things viable in HoTS and gave a unit that took 15 minutes and they went cool ship it.
Seeing as how only Korean Terrans and Thorzain have only shown winning results Terran should be made harder?
|
On September 06 2012 11:06 Zealot Lord wrote:
Whats the speed on warhounds?? I'm watching whitera's stream right now and it seems barely slower than a stalker o_O
it's also almost the same price and does a lot of dmg ^^ It's like a stalker that has features of a marauder
|
maybe this will be read by blizzard. i dont think the warhounds role fits in this game at all, i dislike it strongly and i dont want it to be implemented :/
|
On September 06 2012 11:07 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 11:06 Zealot Lord wrote:
Whats the speed on warhounds?? I'm watching whitera's stream right now and it seems barely slower than a stalker o_O it's also almost the same price and does a lot of dmg ^^ It's like a stalker that has features of a marauder
lol thats what it looks like to me at the moment hahaha ^_^
|
On September 06 2012 11:07 Instigata wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 08:46 Zenbrez wrote:
Watching Drewbie rush Warhounds to (very easily and quickly) pick off Stephano's queens was a bit disheartening. They're strong as fu Why shouldn't a 150/75 tier 2 attacking unit smash a tier 1 150 macro unit? Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 09:00 Shadow_Dog wrote:
PhD. Avilo going to work! But seriously though, yeah I was watching Ret's stream earlier and his roaches could not do anything to the mass of warhounds. Why shouldn't a 150/75 tier 2 unit smash a 75/25 tier 1.5 unit? Has Z or P tried any of there new junk? Seems like all new units are OP...
issue with going non-roach in TvZ (specifically talking about your second example) is that ling/infestor or more over ling/muta/bling can become very obsolete very fast against a 140-180 mech army and when you rush up to those you leave room for quick warhounds etc to snipe third/queens because lings can't get to them due to battle hellions/hellions covering, roaches are usually required to combat mech (though not always!)
|
This should be implemented and the Thor should be removed. Problem solved. This would also solve a fair amount of the mobility issues mech faces as well, since you aren't waiting for asthmatic Thors to catch up or stay with your army. I really hope Blizzard pulls their heads out of the sand on this.
|
it's a unit that can make mech play more Active to watch rather than simply turtling and securing bases and push out with a maxed mech.
But I do think that there are other ways to make more interesting than just making these relatively strong a move units because it makes mech style similar to a slightly slower, stronger mobile bio
|
Honestly warhounds need to be cut completely.
They LOOK terrible. Their aesthetics are stupid, and don't feel starcraft-y at all. With speed hellions and warhounds, mech is ACTUALLY FASTER THAN NON STIMMED BIO.
|
On September 06 2012 10:55 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 10:37 LgNKami wrote:On September 06 2012 10:31 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On September 06 2012 10:24 LgNKami wrote:
Dont mean to start an argument but...
Isn't mech a deathball in general? You sit behind tanks, turrets, PF's, and sensor towers until you have a maxed out deathball and then you move out.
sure you siege and unsiege every now and then but in general its just attack move. There are no spells to cast, no real micro besides siege and unsiege, and the person that makes a mistake first loses the game.
Just playing devils advocate. I dunno how you cam to this conclusion but I will argue from a BW perspective leading into SC2 In BW mech was relatively about positioning, you cut the map with "less" units that could hold positions against bigger armies and then eventually you either win the war of attrition or you create a big enough army to push (usually leap frog) across the map and win. In SC2 mech has turned a lot more into a "deathball" and it kind of defeats the purpose mainly because tanks a) can't hold the positions they could in BW against armies that are frankly stronger than BW armies and b) you don't have positional mines (not these new stupid mines) that can hold areas for long periods of time so that protoss would have to clear the fields before moving foward giving you time to reposition etc etc. Now with SC2 mech, it's going from a mix between "positional" and "deathball" to pure deathball, who would make tanks in TvP and if you do it won't be many because they blow and then you'll just get this giant ball of warhound/batltehellion/thor/scvs and move around the map... T.T thats what im saying though. in sc2 whenever I see anyone play mech, they play "positional" mech until they max out and then just attack move. I have yet to see a full out positional mech game. Even in the GSL. If we were talking Marine Tank, that would be completely different but only in TvT as marine tank isn't an option vs toss and its starting to die out vs zerg as people are starting to use Mech or pure bio. Ok well I agree, the "tank" is the issue here because it does like 30-35 dmg? You get to 100 shot a colossus down, in BW it was 2 shot on 3-4 clumped dragoons but in SC2 you'd be lucky to kill a stalker with that many shots... I really don't know though, they're taking the game in the wrong direction though with mech and turning it into the 200/200 protoss deathball with humans instead of aliens. I feel like the longevity of the game will be what kills esports, not the industry. It'd be like having a professional league based around checkers or something, there are only so many "balanced" moves you can make ...
Agreed, Blizzard needs to bring back the Siege Tank. In BW Terran was all about the tanks, and that's what made the race really unique.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
