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On September 06 2012 06:54 DrowSwordsman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 06:42 Duncaaaaaan wrote:On September 06 2012 06:35 DrowSwordsman wrote:On September 06 2012 06:20 Duncaaaaaan wrote:
Terran = the new A move race.
No thought required, make battle hellions, make warhounds, make vikings, A move, win game.
So this is how Dustin Bowder thought of making mech more viable in TvP? Just turn mech into bio in big metal boxes with legs?
Fuck this shit. I can stand changes like worker auto mine and not being able to click on enemies or mineral patches, but I cannot stand the way the terran game is shifting.
I've been watching ForGG and all he's done every single match is make those two units and just tried to out-upgrade and out-concave his opponent, absolutely zero skill involved compared to making tanks or going bio.
Wait, you can't click on enemy units to see their upgrades? Or click enemy resources to see how much gas they've mined?? I think you can still click on geysers to check, but you cannot click on mineral patches, period. Not even your own. Meh, it's not going to ruin it for me. How are you supposed to know how many minerals are left in a patch, and how many probes are worth keeping at a mining base? Wow that is terrible.
Someone said something about being able to toggle this in options.
If you can't though, doesn't really break the game, I can tell how many minerals there are left approximately in a patch by just taking a glance, and I'll peel a few workers off and send them to a different expansion.
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They are trying to solve a problem (tank stalemate TvT) that doesn't exist.
This game is littered with their dumb ideas, and a ton of gimmick units that are only useful for the first X minutes.
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On September 06 2012 06:53 Duncaaaaaan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 06:52 Jaegeru wrote:
Warhounds seem slightly too fast for mech units imo, but I like it since it gives you a good way for dealing with roach harass playing mech since hellions are garbage at dealing with it and tanks are far too slow - so making 5 - 6 warhounds tvz to deal with roach harass is good. What's wrong with marauders or banshees? You don't have to go hellion + thor in every TvZ you know...
The problem with going marauders or banshees is that weapons and armour upgrades to mech wouldn't benifit bio or air. Unlike how protoss upgrade affect their WHOLE army and zerg upgrades only worry about GROUND and AIR upgrades.
In this case if you have 3/3 upgrades on mech and 1/0 on bio and the zerg is building roaches. Most terran would prefer to get warhound, tanks, or thors instead of marauders or banshees (banshees are more of a harras unit than an army vs army unit)
TL;DR when Terran goes bio, mech, air its because they are upgrading those things and you'll most likely see little of anything else in the compositions.
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On September 06 2012 06:50 architecture wrote:
If you want to split hairs and not consider DOTA a RTS, then you should know this:
The market for RTS is really small. Most people these days are not interested in a pure RTS a la AOE2/SC1.
So if you don't want to consider DOTA an extension of RTS, then we can safely say RTS is dead.
It's not about splitting hairs. DOTA is closer to an MMORPG than an RTS (leveling up, controlling only one unit, spells, items, the social aspect...). MOBA games are not RTS.
That said, Terran's new units look kind of boring. War Hound doesn't really seem to fit the terran arsenal.
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On September 06 2012 07:14 kaokentake wrote:
starcraft 2 is MMA
dota 2 is basketball
sadly, one is more impressive, and one is more popular
i watch MMA, dont watch popular
however, on a flip side, most people probably give GSP or Junior Dos Santos or Cain Velasquez more respect than Ron Artest
but basketballs biggest star kobe bryant / Jordan gets more respect (or should i say recognition) than MMA stars
A ranking was done by ESPN a while ago where experts ranked the difficulty of sports: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/sportSkills.
While of course it's opinions, and I don't agree with everything, you see that MMA is pretty high so it's not like it's disregarded in comparison to Basketball. Hell, Boxing is #1. And while I do think Boxing is harder than mma (more technical, more dangerous, and more endurance-taxing), I think the activity of an MMA match is harder than Basketball, but becoming an NBA star is harder than MMA because several more million people are trying to do the same thing than as mma.
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On September 06 2012 05:53 GinDo wrote:This is MechBlizzard come on. Why cater so much to the the extreme casual wing? When you do that you not only lose the hard-core wing, but you lose alot of moderates as well. + Show Spoiler +I think the issue is that although Hardcore players stay around, the casuals are larger in number and buy more games, though none of my nub SC friends still play.
Flash's OSL match raked up 3k viewers from foreign fans TODAY(!), while a standard MOBA clone rakes up five-ten times that amount for a standard tournament match. That is just scary numbers. The Star2 guys that were cheering for BW's death in the forums some month ago already left the sinking ship playing MOBA or some other fluke. Left are those of us who wanted to watch RTS, but saw BW killed by the "new" Blizzard. What do we have left? A completely dead BW scene killed by "fans" and "Blizzard", and a train wreck of a game that dared to brand itself Starcraft 2.
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I don't understand why Blizzard say they want to fix the "problem" of the siege tank's power in TvT. Do they not realise that the siege tank is what TvT revolves around? Literally almost everything in tvt from start to finish is linked to the siege tank (exemple: air switch as an answer to mass tank lines). And yet it is the best mirror MU, and arguably the 2nd best MU in the game to watch.
Normal mech requires very thoughtful positioning and excellent decision making: how to set up your defence, timing your expansions/factories/upgrades, spending your gas correctly, anticipating your opponent's moves... A mech army is supposed to require some time to get in an optimal position (siege mode), and needs a lot of babysetting and careful movements.
Instead, we get the warhound, which was openly made as an "a-move" unit, and specifically designed to crush siege tanks. Rather than have epic mech TvTs like Mvp vs TOP, we'll get bio vs bio or two huge warhound armies ramming against each other...
I know it's only the beta, but the whole premise of the unit seems flawed. Mech doesn't need a marauder without stim, and TvT does not need siege tanks to be weaker.
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the warhound is ok imo, they need to nerf its hp a bit i think because of its strength in the early game.
I think the thor needs a complete role change. Make it a Ground to Air fighter, and thats all it specializes in. it could change modes, one mode does bonus to light, the other does bonus to armored, and it could even require it to be stationary like a tank to do this. essentially, make it a completely new unit with a new model/skin and everything. thoughts?
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Warhound will not be ok as long as it makes Meching ignores positionnal play.
Zerg Swarm Host composition is more mech than TvX HoTS mech.
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It's a retardedly 1a unit. It should be changed. It's a mech marauder, but even more 1a.
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On September 06 2012 07:26 Crusifics wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 06:53 Duncaaaaaan wrote:On September 06 2012 06:52 Jaegeru wrote:
Warhounds seem slightly too fast for mech units imo, but I like it since it gives you a good way for dealing with roach harass playing mech since hellions are garbage at dealing with it and tanks are far too slow - so making 5 - 6 warhounds tvz to deal with roach harass is good. What's wrong with marauders or banshees? You don't have to go hellion + thor in every TvZ you know... The problem with going marauders or banshees is that weapons and armour upgrades to mech wouldn't benifit bio or air. Unlike how protoss upgrade affect their WHOLE army and zerg upgrades only worry about GROUND and AIR upgrades. In this case if you have 3/3 upgrades on mech and 1/0 on bio and the zerg is building roaches. Most terran would prefer to get warhound, tanks, or thors instead of marauders or banshees (banshees are more of a harras unit than an army vs army unit) TL;DR when Terran goes bio, mech, air its because they are upgrading those things and you'll most likely see little of anything else in the compositions.
Except this is completely wrong.
If you're going bio mech, mech upgrades don't have priority. The tanks are just there as area denial, long range bombardment and basically making your opponent stop sitting in the same spot. You need 3/3 marines as soon as possible. Even then, you can still afford to upgrade mech, and with siege tanks all you need is + weapon attack. You don't need more armour. In fact it's pretty pointless, if your tanks are attacked first by another siege tank, it will die.
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On September 06 2012 07:14 kaokentake wrote:
starcraft 2 is MMA
dota 2 is basketball
sadly, one is more impressive, and one is more popular
i watch MMA, dont watch popular
however, on a flip side, most people probably give GSP or Junior Dos Santos or Cain Velasquez more respect than Ron Artest
but basketballs biggest star kobe bryant / Jordan gets more respect (or should i say recognition) than MMA stars
I like Starcraft alot better than MOBAs, but in reference to your analogy I must say that in general team games are more impressive to me than individual sports.
To me personally, and to many more I suspect, a non-violent teamsport is more interesting than a cage fight any day of the week.
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Feels like a Marauder that is built from the Factory tbh
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I think its fine. Keep it
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On September 06 2012 07:23 architecture wrote:
They are trying to solve a problem (tank stalemate TvT) that doesn't exist.
This game is littered with their dumb ideas, and a ton of gimmick units that are only useful for the first X minutes.
The game is entirely their ideas. Honestly sometimes I am surprised at the hate that Blizzard seems to get and the rehashing of ideas that gets thrown about. Blizzard comes up with these things, playtests these original ideas and sometimes make changes. They have the vision to see a change with a view to the entire game. They make their decisions with the ideas that players shouldn't have an infinite amount of menial tasks, should employ foresight, should be able to produce fun and enjoyable games. Sometimes they are wrong, but they seem to be mostly right (hey we are watching sc2 aren't we?).
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The main problem with the warhound is basically it's an easymode unit that does a few things that are very bad for the game design and balance-wise:
a) it's a marauder in a mech suit. It plays exactly like a bio unit does, not a mech unit.
b) now this is the interesting part - you can say it completely makes the siege tank pointless, or you can say it highlights how much the siege tank actually sucks. Blizzard should be promoting siege tank usage with heart of the swarm, the warhound simply is better than the tank in every way.
c) another ground to ground only unit. Terran's mech weakness is heavily due to lack of anti-air.
A proposal / idea. Get rid of the warhound in it's current form, buff the siege tank / widow mine (widow mine is completely suck right now because they pre-emptively nerfed it before beta started due to forum noob balance whining).
Change the warhound to be a similar "siege mode" unit like the siege tank and battle hellion are. What I mean is give it a seconday mode where it is able to have a long range solid anti-air attack similar to the goliath or to the original proposed anti-air role of the warhound but make it be completely immobile like the siege tank in this "siege mode."
What this does is it gives the unit depth like the siege tank. You now have a very capable anti-air factory option with the warhound, but it requires good usage in managing it's "siege mode" just like siege tanks in siege mode are different than in non siege mode. It also makes Terran require a higher skill cap because then you not only have to know when to siege it up for anti-air but you also have to POSITION it is the main point I will make, and on top of that you now have to perfectly manage 3 different mech units that go into "siege mode" - the siege tank, the warhound, the battle hellion.
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Its bad because it doesn't "feel" like mech? WTF people thinking theres something wrong with a game that someone else made because it doesn't "feel" the way they want it to?
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On September 06 2012 08:29 superbarnie wrote:
Its bad because it doesn't "feel" like mech? WTF people thinking theres something wrong with a game that someone else made because it doesn't "feel" the way they want it to?
Faster than unstimmed bio,insane DPS, 2 food cheap unit. Its like a roach on crack that crushes mechanical units.
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Yea, for all the reasons stated so far, warhound's gotta go. Which sucks because I really wanted more than bio in TvP. But they have to fix it, not just nerf it's damage, but like, remove it and buff tanks or something.
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On September 06 2012 08:29 superbarnie wrote:
Its bad because it doesn't "feel" like mech? WTF people thinking theres something wrong with a game that someone else made because it doesn't "feel" the way they want it to?
It's bad because SC2 is unrecognizable from BW (the undisputed superior game). Mech isn't "mech". Mech is supposed to be about positioning, harrass, and strategy. Not a moving warhounds as if it was just a bio unit.
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EPT
