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Playing the AI won't really help you beyond gold level though, I think people aren't really giving players at that level enough credit.
I was watching a gold level caster playing some ladder on his youtube earlier today, and gold is just awful. I mean I don't claim to be a good player, I'm low diamond, but this was just absurd. He was on 2 bases.. then he says "ok.. 3000 minerals, gotta spend spend spend here.." and as he did that, he queued 5 tanks into his factory. He was also in the top 10 in his division. It seems to me people in gold have no clue how to play.
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On May 18 2011 08:03 Noelani wrote:Show nested quote +Playing the AI won't really help you beyond gold level though, I think people aren't really giving players at that level enough credit. I was watching a gold level caster playing some ladder on his youtube earlier today, and gold is just awful. I mean I don't claim to be a good player, I'm low diamond, but this was just absurd. He was on 2 bases.. then he says "ok.. 3000 minerals, gotta spend spend spend here.." and as he did that, he queued 5 tanks into his factory. He was also in the top 10 in his division. It seems to me people in gold have no clue how to play.
wow, gold league has really gotten a lot better it's sounding. He actually knew to keep his money down during a game and not just while posting on TL.
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No it doesn't matter
Also, the Insane is incomparable because it cheats. You could say you need to be Bronze or even Diamond -- you will need to do some really weird shit like cheese in order to beat it.
A Very Hard AI plays like a goldish platinum. Unless I'm mistaken, AIs almost always do some kind of early-ish push, so that gets stale quickly.
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In my opinion very hard is SO TRIVIAL. I don't even play starcraft 2, and I beat the AI easily in a straight up macro game. I'm low silver btw, but might be in part because I have 20 games played.
Insane AI has so many cheats... but it is still completely beatable. If you have solid macro and game sense, it is quite doable.
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OP: This question is a non-starter, because the AI is really not comparable to BNet in any way. anything below Very Hard is barely BARELY comparable to low bronze. More importantly, the AI will never:
* 6pool/cannon rush/3 rax you (favored at the lower levels), thus not punishing you for bad scouting.
* Never initiate a base-trade with you because it will always withdraw the whole army home if any force is attacking (e.g. 1 mutalisk)
* Is totally predictable, i.e. always does a big 1 base attack and never techs in unusual ways or does the truly strong sub-10 minute all-ins (i.e. Raven/Tank/Marine, 6 gate Warpgate bust, Roach/ling Losira bust)
* Doesn't actually macro; either cheats (INSANE) or moves very slowly to take bases. Doesn't teach you how to manage the game by understanding your opponent's economy.
* Doesn't punish you (or reward you) for creative play, e.g. double-expanding, playing mindgames by cancelling a nexus or hiding tech, etc.
* Doesn't relentlessly attack and throw you into brutal micro battles that challenge you to macro while trying to stay alive by the skin of your teeth
Basically... go get on Bnet and have a lot more fun! Few things are more satisfying than getting stomped by a creative and seemingly imba build, reviewing a replay, refining your reaction, and murdering it the next time you see it on ladder.
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On May 18 2011 08:03 Noelani wrote:Show nested quote +Playing the AI won't really help you beyond gold level though, I think people aren't really giving players at that level enough credit. I was watching a gold level caster playing some ladder on his youtube earlier today, and gold is just awful. I mean I don't claim to be a good player, I'm low diamond, but this was just absurd. He was on 2 bases.. then he says "ok.. 3000 minerals, gotta spend spend spend here.." and as he did that, he queued 5 tanks into his factory. He was also in the top 10 in his division. It seems to me people in gold have no clue how to play.
Yes we're all terrible o.o
I play random so I'm a 3 race gold player. I don't play more than 20-30 games a week. And most of all- I'm only a mediocre player.
But i'm not effing terrible :O
On topic- AI =/= Living Breathing People.
Hard will send like 7 roaches and 2 lings to you at 8 minutes or so exactly. Every time.
Bronze-GM you'll get cheesed then 2 base all in'd then macro game'd then ...
You just can't compare it. However versing the AI is a good way to get comfortable with producing workers, the timing of a build order and when you can or can't multitask during it AND you can get supply blocked without looking silly.
But you're not learning any competitive ladder skills unfortunately.
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The AI plays way more predictably than somebody on BNET. Online, somebody can make a Dark Shrine and then just attack without Dark Templars at all. The AI actually makes use of everything in the same ways just about every game. They even attack at around the same times each game, unlike a real game.
And then you have to note that a cannon rush can beat Insane AI...
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The AI works for learning the basics, anything beyond that is pointless.
Insane, without cheesing, you can as T win against 4 Z opponents on some maps due to siege tanks. You won't do it every time, but it is possible. VS 3 insane Z on some maps it is always possible. VS 2 insane it isn't possible on some maps, but it is on most.
Winning against one insane in a straight up macro game is very possible due to their bad unit control.
So I would rate hard and below as bronze. Where you basically learn one strat and execute it. With some prior RTS experience you can beat all of them pretty easily.
Very hard is probably mid bronze level, mostly since you know what the possible options are and how easy it is to cheese.
The cheating insane is probably gold level since you know what you are facing. The tenth game on you should be winning most of your games already.
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No comparison. Very easy-hard is just same exact build every time. Just different timings due to the cap of workers. (very easy caps at like 10 or something O.o) But Very hard actually adapts a little and plays like a low gold player I would say. But Insane is just different. if you play straight up (no cheese no glitchign the AI by agroing with like 2 drones) then they SHOULD win just because they actually have a faster collection rate I believe (unless your macro is impeccable and you are just that boss at micro...)
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my friend who is like 2-10 in bronze can beat very hard.... so no, AI are much much worse than BNET
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All I know is, it is always easier to play against the AI because he does a limited amount of strategies.
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I find i can outmacro a Very Hard AI, and win ( ZvP), but i've never tried insane.
As long as you scout what's coming the Very Hard AI doesn't reinforce very well so as long as you've macroed well you can simply just keep producing and overwhelm the AI.
Insane would be interesting, I think Terran might also be the more difficult race to beat.
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Can't really compare AI to humans, as when you find the 'abuse' that lets you beat the AI it doesn't matter how skilled you are, you can beat the AI anytime.
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You can beat an insane AI like this:
As zerg, bring one or two drones into his base
Build extractors, and then cancelling and then immediately rebuilding
Sometimes (seems like sometimes they won 't do it though), the AI will pull all his workers to attack your extractor, in which case he will have zero income and will die as soon as you make anything
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Take it from someone who's played hundreds of AI games - it's a no.
>Very easy sends about 2-3 units for its first attack. A baby could defend and win.
>Medium sends a half-decent amount of units but if you're Silver League or above you will never lose.
>Hard sends a fair challenge of units but most standard openings will crush it.
>Very Hard can be challenging but a Platinum player will almost always defeat it.
Tactics (or lack thereof)
>All AIs attack without fail at the exact same time every game: 6:30-7:00.
>You can either defend this and push back for a win, or tech up and defend the second attack at ~12:00, then win.
>I've never played a game that went to a third, because I'll always win after that point.
>All AIs play standard army ball with no other tactics. They do not use harass or stealth tactics.
>They stay on one base for a very long time and all attacks are a-moves.
>If AI units are attacked from up a cliff and there is a wall, they will turn tail and run unless it deems the force strong enough to push in.
>If an AI army is attacking, sneaking any units into their base to attack their structures will make the WHOLE ARMY drop its attack and come back to defend.
You will not learn anything other than basic macro and control when playing against AIs. If anything, it's a good warmup before playing against real people. If you're beyond Gold League, it isn't worth it.
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Hi there!
I'd say you should definatly buy it. Playing online is nothing like playing against a computer, and won't be for quite some time I believe! It's a complete different story with multiplayer and that's what makes the game incredible!
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As others have said, the fact that you know you are playing the AI and it behaves in a predictable fashion makes things a lot easier. For a proper test of the AI's actual strength you would need to get people to play the AI without knowing they are playing an AI. For example, putting the AIs onto the ladder and seeing how they fare.
Regarding insane AI, it is perfectly possible to beat it straight up, simply because it makes poor decisions and has awful micro.
In any case, I wouldn't worry so much about difficulty. The great thing about the ladder is that it automatically matches you against people of your own skill level.
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By survivability Insane is grandmaster for sure. I think playing Z vs insane can't be won w/o abusing AI.
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I think I accurately say what level of skill one needs to beat the various levels, as I was myself a bronze and now top silver who had played AI a lot. This is what rank I was when I finally beat the different levels of AI
Very easy: Absolute Beginner
Easy: Bottom Bronze
Medium: Bottom-Mid Bronze
Hard: Mid-High Bronze
Very hard: Bottom-Mid Silver
Insane: ?? Haven't beaten it yet
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To beat insane AI, pick T, P can work as well. Make sure enemy ai is Z (since it is by far the weakest). Make static defence for first attack wave. Defend it, tech up. Let the teched units handle wave two behind static defence, get a natural if you couldn't before attack 1. Defend it.
If you are lucky you get a third. Most map layouts stop you from getting one though. Now defend until the opponent mines out or you get a large enough tier 3 air force to win.
OR cheese.
Some maps with island expansions you can play T vs Z and defend your main with a small choke and float CCs over, giving you enough resources to win with BC while defending your main to keep the opponent army in check.
If you aren't playing vs a Z insane then you are in for a real fight that is hard to win for most people.
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EPT
