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On January 23 2011 14:03 BasilPesto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 07:45 [F_]aths wrote:
3) If someone cite a quote of a character of a previous game, they assume that the character spoke the truth. But the character could have been misinformed, or he could try to deceive you. May be the character forgot some things he said a long time ago. Cut him some slack, please! This just sounds like a weak excuse for an inconsistent plot/story. Everything in the past is then questionable, nothing is concrete. Maybe Character A's memory is sketchy, maybe he was being mind controlled, maybe he was joking, maybe he was lying, maybe he's plain stupid. Show nested quote +The story does include many cliches and many cheesy dialog. Why would Chris Metzen and his team dare to not ask us how exactly the story should develop? Oh wait … it’s their franchise. Aimed for a 2010 audience. Instead of giving some die-hard SC1 fans exactly what they want, they dare to go into mainstream to attract new fans to the franchise. Imagine – noobs playing Starcraft! This is the end of the world, because it belongs to us! We liked it like it was. We want back the talking heads. We want back the weird Broodwar mission. And we want back the “original” story of a rebellion leader who turned out to be a dictator himself and betrayed his friend. There's nothing daring about dumbing down your franchise in order to make more money. There's nothing daring in being unoriginal.
SC1's story is not original
read "Animal Farm" from George Orwell
There is the same theme there:
Someone fights along his friends to take down a dictator, and the person who did most of the work gets the down end of all things. The one who didn't do any of the work becomes the new dictator, power corrupts, etc ...............
Light Protoss and Dark Protoss, who have had divergences over the years/millenia, now have to unite and work together in the thread of a common enemy, .....etc
And the list can continue. Nothing in SC1's story is original. You can say SC1's story is a cliche. StarCraft did not go where it is today because of it's story, but because of it's gameplay.
People got on Youtube and Gomtv to see BoXeR's MM micro, JaeDong's muta play controlling multiple groups, Bisu's reaver/shuttle micro, Flash's excellent macro, etc. Gameplay is what SC1 is all about.
Don't worry abt people who criticise WoL's story. They are flaw finders. The fact is Starcraft2 is the best thing that happened to the RTS scene since the release of SC1. Some say it's better, some say it's not, but Blizzard's RTS are better than any RTS games out there.
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On January 24 2011 21:24 Tyree wrote:
All this says, is that Blizzard wants a pretty, hot, woman on the cover of HotS, thus they need to turn Kerrigan "face" (meaning GOOD), so that they have a character in the Zerg campaign that the players can stare at her ass (look up Miranda in ME2). Kerrigan could still be heel. It's fun to play an evil role (like Arthas as Death Knight in WC3.)
On January 24 2011 21:24 Tyree wrote:
The story however has alot of issues, like how they are reclying the tired "races band together to fight off the big evil" (see Warcraft 3). This is nothing but an assumption. Just because a prophecy foretold a greater evil, it does not mean that all races team up.
On January 24 2011 21:24 Tyree wrote:
Again i need to stop myself because i can go on and on about this, but from a pure gameplay view SC2 is a excellent game and missions are very varied and fun to do, moreso than any RTS game ever made, and trust me, ive played them all since Dune. After I played Dune 1 and 2, I read the book. I can recommend it to anyone.
I really think that if SC1 would have told the story of SC2 and now we would have the SC1 story in WoL, everyone would complain about lack of originality and damn the poor writing and how out-of-character all characters act and so on.
Is the SC2 story exceptionally good? I don't think so. But neither was the SC1 story. Again: You join a rebel leader who turns out to be even a greater evil than the regime he overthrew, and then the UED comes into play (deus ex machina, anyone?)
While Raynor's story in WoL is a western story full of clichees, at least Blizzard gave us a proper soundtrack. *Humming* Shotgun ... zerg ... and You ... *humming*
Should the story improve in HotS and LotV? Yes, definitively. Blizzard has a chance to tie some loose ends together, fill some holes and give us a deeper, yet more consistent story.
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On January 23 2011 22:11 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 16:22 Jibba wrote:
Since when was Raynor in love with Kerrigan? He had the hots for her, but Blizzard went the easy (and lame) route by making it a love story. It worked for me. During the SC1 campaign I always felt that she is his girl. In the light of the events (his girl got infested and so on) of course his feelings did not had highest priority. As the infested Kerrigan spared Jim's life, I knew that there is something more between those two than the campaign revealed.
This means you completely failed to understand the story mode in the first game, not that you "got" the vanilla/BW story and others didn't.
I guess you could chalk it up to a matter of opinion. With the extensive politicking, alliances, and betrayals in space sounding more like an Asimov novel and the cliched love story in space resembling something Knaack wrote.
I mean if you like Knaack, more power to you.
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It's true. A lot of people just miss how enjoyable the campaign is, even if the story is a little... tired.
A cheesy story is effective, in much the same way as a cheesy strat. But hey, if that doesn't rope everyone in, then you can always just throw in some achievement points and that'll make everyone play it.
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On January 24 2011 23:20 Offhand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 22:11 [F_]aths wrote:On January 23 2011 16:22 Jibba wrote:
Since when was Raynor in love with Kerrigan? He had the hots for her, but Blizzard went the easy (and lame) route by making it a love story. It worked for me. During the SC1 campaign I always felt that she is his girl. In the light of the events (his girl got infested and so on) of course his feelings did not had highest priority. As the infested Kerrigan spared Jim's life, I knew that there is something more between those two than the campaign revealed. This means you completely failed to understand the story mode in the first game, not that you "got" the vanilla/BW story and others didn't. How can you tell if someone got the (real) story and others don't?
I noticed that in american movie culture, love on first sight is used as hint that someone found his true love. So I assumed that "Here is Jimmy" found his true love at he looked as Sarah the first time. (Yes, so much cliché here. But this is Sparta Starcraft.) As the infested Kerrigan spared Raynor's life later in the campaign, even though she already was depictured as a ruthless monster, I assumed that she has real feeling for him, too.
Now you probably say "Gosh, you got it all wrong. Starcraft is not the story of Jimmy ♥ Sarah." But I see the relationship as a driving force in the Starcraft story. That makes no SF story of course, so we need the aliens. Bring the aliens on!
edit: As I read my posting again, I see it is more sarcastic than intended. Still, Blizzard totally sold me with this love story in WoL.
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btw guys Dr Narud is Duran spelled backwards. Just throwin that out there.
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Let's be honest, if you come to a computer game expecting an engrossing, well-written story, you're barking up the wrong tree. Some games have good stories that are poorly written, some games have well-written stories that are boring, but only very rarely to they meet in the middle (unless it's poorly-written boring stories, i guess  ).
The best you can really hope for is something like WoW, where the background story and the setting is pretty compelling and if you want to read the novels (which i have) you'll just have to lower your expectations. It's kinda like anime, except less paedophillia.
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On January 25 2011 00:26 [F_]aths wrote:
How can you tell if someone got the (real) story and others don't?
Because at no point in 60 some mission of the first game was it implied that Raynor and Kerrigan were in love. Saying Kerrigan spared Raynor once is proof otherwise is grasping at straws. Raynor even vows to kill her.
You clearly didn't understand the story of the first game, this is largely O.K. because SC2's story may as well be set in a separate universe.
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On January 25 2011 03:42 Offhand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 00:26 [F_]aths wrote:
How can you tell if someone got the (real) story and others don't?
Because at no point in 60 some mission of the first game was it implied that Raynor and Kerrigan were in love. Saying Kerrigan spared Raynor once is proof otherwise is grasping at straws. Raynor even vows to kill her. You clearly didn't understand the story of the first game, this is largely O.K. because SC2's story may as well be set in a separate universe.
Pot, kettle.
Go back and play the Terran mission where Mensk abandons Kerrigan to the Zerg in the vanilla SC Terran campaign. There's clearly something developing between Raynor and Kerrigan in their dialogue exchange prior/during the mission. She was one of the main reasons Raynor broke from Mensk.
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On January 24 2011 22:16 MindRush wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 14:03 BasilPesto wrote:On January 23 2011 07:45 [F_]aths wrote:
3) If someone cite a quote of a character of a previous game, they assume that the character spoke the truth. But the character could have been misinformed, or he could try to deceive you. May be the character forgot some things he said a long time ago. Cut him some slack, please! This just sounds like a weak excuse for an inconsistent plot/story. Everything in the past is then questionable, nothing is concrete. Maybe Character A's memory is sketchy, maybe he was being mind controlled, maybe he was joking, maybe he was lying, maybe he's plain stupid. The story does include many cliches and many cheesy dialog. Why would Chris Metzen and his team dare to not ask us how exactly the story should develop? Oh wait … it’s their franchise. Aimed for a 2010 audience. Instead of giving some die-hard SC1 fans exactly what they want, they dare to go into mainstream to attract new fans to the franchise. Imagine – noobs playing Starcraft! This is the end of the world, because it belongs to us! We liked it like it was. We want back the talking heads. We want back the weird Broodwar mission. And we want back the “original” story of a rebellion leader who turned out to be a dictator himself and betrayed his friend. There's nothing daring about dumbing down your franchise in order to make more money. There's nothing daring in being unoriginal. SC1's story is not original read "Animal Farm" from George OrwellThere is the same theme there: Someone fights along his friends to take down a dictator, and the person who did most of the work gets the down end of all things. The one who didn't do any of the work becomes the new dictator, power corrupts, etc ............... Light Protoss and Dark Protoss, who have had divergences over the years/millenia, now have to unite and work together in the thread of a common enemy, .....etc And the list can continue. Nothing in SC1's story is original. You can say SC1's story is a cliche. StarCraft did not go where it is today because of it's story, but because of it's gameplay. People got on Youtube and Gomtv to see BoXeR's MM micro, JaeDong's muta play controlling multiple groups, Bisu's reaver/shuttle micro, Flash's excellent macro, etc. Gameplay is what SC1 is all about. Don't worry abt people who criticise WoL's story. They are flaw finders. The fact is Starcraft2 is the best thing that happened to the RTS scene since the release of SC1. Some say it's better, some say it's not, but Blizzard's RTS are better than any RTS games out there.
SC1 copies from Animal Farm? Fine with me. I'd much prefer a story copying from a decent work of literature than a story that copies from cheap sci-fi B action movies and previous games made by the same company.
If SC1 is mildly unoriginal, then SC2 is blatantly and shamelessly unoriginal. It doesn't even bother hiding the fact that it's basically cutting and pasting the plot of WC3 (unite against the Burning Legion, evil race was actually corrupted, etc.). I fail to see how pointing out obvious flaws in the story makes me a nitpicker.
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On January 25 2011 03:42 Offhand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 00:26 [F_]aths wrote:
How can you tell if someone got the (real) story and others don't?
Because at no point in 60 some mission of the first game was it implied that Raynor and Kerrigan were in love. Saying Kerrigan spared Raynor once is proof otherwise is grasping at straws. Raynor even vows to kill her.Do you actually mean anything you say? Did you made anything you ever said? Raynor was angry, so angry that he said that he would kill her. (By some strange twist, this still could be true, that Raynor at one time actually kills Kerrigan.)
That doesn't mean that he has no feelings for her.
On January 25 2011 03:42 Offhand wrote:You clearly didn't understand the story of the first game, this is largely O.K. because SC2's story may as well be set in a separate universe. I explained two or three times in thread why I assumed a love in my original SC playthrough.
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On January 25 2011 03:55 Newbistic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 03:42 Offhand wrote:On January 25 2011 00:26 [F_]aths wrote:
How can you tell if someone got the (real) story and others don't?
Because at no point in 60 some mission of the first game was it implied that Raynor and Kerrigan were in love. Saying Kerrigan spared Raynor once is proof otherwise is grasping at straws. Raynor even vows to kill her. You clearly didn't understand the story of the first game, this is largely O.K. because SC2's story may as well be set in a separate universe. Pot, kettle. Go back and play the Terran mission where Mensk abandons Kerrigan to the Zerg in the vanilla SC Terran campaign. There's clearly something developing between Raynor and Kerrigan in their dialogue exchange prior/during the mission. She was one of the main reasons Raynor broke from Mensk.
Really I've seen more logical arguments presented on fanfiction.net...
EDIT: I mean, come on, is this ever hinted at in any of the novels? It wasn't in Liberty's Crusade, which is probably the most relevant in terms a character associations. Or do you mean to tell me that all the pulp writers forgot and left that one out?
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On January 25 2011 04:20 Spawkuring wrote:
If SC1 is mildly unoriginal, then SC2 is blatantly and shamelessly unoriginal. It doesn't even bother hiding the fact that it's basically cutting and pasting the plot of WC3 (unite against the Burning Legion, evil race was actually corrupted, etc.). I fail to see how pointing out obvious flaws in the story makes me a nitpicker. SC1 is already very unoriginal. The races are just copied from inspired by Warhammer 40000. They added some from the "Alien" series "inspired" own design.
Read some reviews written at the release of Starcraft. Rarely someone praised the story.
The zerg are not a noble race like the Orcs.
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Sorry everyone, but I think it's time to embrace the fact that SC2 barely raises to the level of a fanfic, nothing more.
SC2 was a crushingly bland butter sandwich to SC1's glorious meatball footlong.
So ok, you've given them your money and time already, so now you think you have to justify your investment, but really... SC2's story was total crap. Just accept that SC lore's dead and move on.
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By all that is right and Zerg-y in the universe, I hope this is the case:
And no, the zerg are not a misunderstood race. Zerg are still a vile and mean and thirsty for blood. Just because they were used does not mean they are in fact a noble race...
I have no problem with the Dark Voice (Burning Legion) using the Zerg (Orcs) for his own nefarious schemes as long as the Zerg come out the other end as still a race bent on consuming the universe.
I mean... the whole drive for perfection by assimilating other races doesn't seem like it'll mesh well with a peaceful coexistence philosophy.
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On January 25 2011 05:26 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 04:20 Spawkuring wrote:
If SC1 is mildly unoriginal, then SC2 is blatantly and shamelessly unoriginal. It doesn't even bother hiding the fact that it's basically cutting and pasting the plot of WC3 (unite against the Burning Legion, evil race was actually corrupted, etc.). I fail to see how pointing out obvious flaws in the story makes me a nitpicker. SC1 is already very unoriginal. The races are just copied from inspired by Warhammer 40000. They added some from the "Alien" series "inspired" own design. Read some reviews written at the release of Starcraft. Rarely someone praised the story. The zerg are not a noble race like the Orcs.
Reviewers didn't praise SC's story, but they didn't bash it either. At the very least, it served its purpose and made for an entertaining experience. Compare that to SC2, where the story quality was low enough that reviewers specifically made segments just to slam it. Remember that reviewers are notorious for ass-kissing big name companies like Blizzard, yet even they had to voice their dislike of it.
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You can find SC2 reviews which criticize the story. You can find other reviews which praise the story. Most reviews do mention some action movie silliness, but that does not mean that they condemn the story as a whole.
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Who the hell cares about why Taldarim use stalkers.
The disgrace that they committed to all the important characters is what actually pisses me off. All the characters just didn't have character. At all.
Was there even a story in WoL? Well, yes, there were a few "things that happened"... but not a whole lot that the characters actually did.
Kerrigan was a pussy that got pwnt without doing anything.
Tychus was a pussy that never got relevant.
Mengsk was a pussy that got Tychus in the game, and that's "not doing anything" taken to the level of a fine art.
Zerathul was a superstitious pussy that just came to whine to Raynor.
Raynor was a pussy that got used, and the character for which I am most pissed.
He should have wanted to either save or kill Kerrigan with all his heart, not be focused on the irrelevant Mengsk. He should have actively sought a way for that, not just be given it on a plate by Valerian and tricked/forced to use it.
The new addition, Valerian, ended up to be the only character with a character in WoL, the only one that wasn't a pussy. Too bad he visually looks like one 
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I didn't know Jimmy loved Kerrigan. I thought he carried her away at the end of the game because she was semi-conscious and couldn't really walk. It's the delusional who romanticize their relationship. He just wanted to bang her and never got to because she got captured by the zerg and transformed into a power-hungry maniac.
Either way, I have no complaints about the story. Tychus' betrayal was predictable, and Dr. Hanson's infection was a pleasant surprise. I guess when you compare the books to the game, like when you compare books to movies, some things are left out and some things don't appease the story whores. I guess it's too bad. Maybe they should get an important job at blizzard so they can call the shots...
At the end of the day, I still love playing this game online and enjoyed the story. Easily the best RTS available at the moment. QQ about story line is QQ.
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Your argument is a pretty flimsy argument. You are basically saying, "Yea, there are problems. Just ignore them."
That's not even a flimsy argument - that's a terrible argument. It's perfectly possible to write a story without contractions or plot holes. Hell, that wasn't even the main problem with WoL - the main problem is that the actual execution of telling the story was absolutely horrific. We've all seen cliche stories before - almost everything is a cliche. The thing that sets stories apart from one another is how they're told, and WoL completely and utterly failed when compared to its predecessor or anything else.
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EPT
