EPTOMG I just realized how epic this post was. Thanks.
Dubious morals of the Raynor/Tal'darim affair - Page 6
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Hesmyrr
Canada5776 Posts
OMG I just realized how epic this post was. Thanks. | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On October 09 2010 07:14 101TFP wrote: You all got it wrong, Raynor only attacked the Tal'darim because they possess weapons of mass destruction. and totally not because of the taldarims gas reserves | ||
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Billy_
461 Posts
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Geovu
Estonia1344 Posts
On October 11 2010 03:23 kojinshugi wrote: See, Raynor has a moral code. He won't kill innocents, and he won't attack unarmed people. His moral code has no room in it for "sacred gas" or "sacred artifacts". As far as he is concerned, anyone opposed to him taking gas because of random spiritual mumbo-jumbo doesn't have an opinion worth considering past "can I get away with it without these nutjobs actually hurting me?". He's a space redneck. That's a perfectly reasonable position for a space redneck to hold, even one that's pretty morally upright. *Cut to the entire prophesy plot* OWAIT- There's a bunch of magical hunks of metal apparently have enough spiritual mumbo jumbo juice in them to save his GF-that-wasn't-really-his-GF-until-blizzard-wanted-the-most-sappy-and-retarded-character-interaction-possible and can also blast apart unlimited amounts of zerg. Not to mention the whole prophesy is kind of just thrown into the plot to add a greater enemy than the zerg, and there's a lot better and more creative ways to toss in new enemies. Remember the UED? If he really did think half the crap the protoss are saying is bull then the writers should have indicated so. Then the whole "do I kill kerrigan or do I not" issue might not have been totally moot. What if Tosh instead of needing sacred plot juice wanted the khala? You know, the hunk of crystal that is responsible for all protoss society? I am pretty sure Raynor knows enough about the protoss that he realizes objects that are considered 'sacred' are probably considered as such for a reason. The Tal'darim state that they have had the gas for a time far longer than the terrans have travelled among the stars. This either indicates that: a)The Tal'darim have been around for a very long time and because they are nuts they decide to all of a sudden worship some useless gas, which I don't think is how it worked, because otherwise there would simply HAVE to be some indication of their existance in SC1 (EG the council/aldaris mentioning them to be outcasts or whatever). This is not really possible unless Blizzard really has the most douchey writers ever. or b)The Tal'darim were recently formed and just happened to take possession of that planet from whatever the 'good' protoss faction is now (you know, the one with artanis, selendis, zeratul, etc). Protoss have had that gas for a long time and must have played a significant role in their race's development as a whole for the gas to be considered sacred. This seems like the far more logical option. If this is so, then the Tal'darim were 100% justified in attempting to protect the gas with their lives. If the 'goodguy' protis faction were there they would have had the exact same response to this human taking away part of who the protoss are in the same way the khala is. In conclusion, the Tal'darim were actually protecting the gas not because they are nuts but because they wish to protect an object important to their entire race. | ||
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Hinanawi
United States2250 Posts
Anyone who has played WoW or kept up with WoW lore knows exactly what I'm talking about. | ||
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Billy_
461 Posts
There's a bunch of magical hunks of metal apparently have enough spiritual mumbo jumbo juice in them to save his GF-that-wasn't-really-his-GF-until-blizzard-wanted-the-most-sappy-and-retarded-character-interaction-possible and can also blast apart unlimited amounts of zerg. Not to mention the whole prophesy is kind of just thrown into the plot to add a greater enemy than the zerg, and there's a lot better and more creative ways to toss in new enemies. Remember the UED? If he really did think half the crap the protoss are saying is bull then the writers should have indicated so. Then the whole "do I kill kerrigan or do I not" issue might not have been totally moot. You're making an awfully big deal out of plot devices. Are you saying that the WoL plot would be improved by using more sci-fi elements and less fantasy? Would it really be so much better if WoL ended by hitting her with some kind of a serum like the UED did to the overmind and not some magical rocks? Would the original have been better without all of it's fantasy elements like the overminds holy rock and temple? Whats it matter if Blizzards latest cardboard cut out greater evil is prophisised when it currently appears to be serving in the precise same role of the UED and the legion which is to give Blizzard an excuse to churn out a sequel? | ||
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Seam
United States1093 Posts
For those of you who don't know, in said quests you slaughter innocents, and even kill one of your best friends. | ||
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Humga
Australia43 Posts
YES it is wrong to steal...but if you are a robber stealing from some guys house is it ok for the owner of the house to try to kill you? and if he did that wouldn't you try to defend? Raynor needed the artifacts to create a good world, he just wanted to grab the artifacts and get the fuck out of there. The Taldarim tries to kill Raynor...Raynor defends. Nothing wrong with that. | ||
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undyinglight
United States611 Posts
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ghostunit
61 Posts
Please read the original post, looks like you didn't. Anyways, YES it is wrong to steal...but if you are a robber stealing from some guys house is it ok for the owner of the house to try to kill you? and if he did that wouldn't you try to defend? Yeah, it's like you suddenly found someone in your house who's armed to the teeth (just picture this in your house, would you not shoot someone who breaks into your family house carrying an assault rifle?). So anyways, you actually tell him first to get the fuck out of your house but he replies "sure, just let me take some of your stuff and make some room here so that my also armed-to-the-teeth buddies can also stay while I steal from you, k?". Yeah, that's totally like a recipe for peaceful diplomatic discussion and not at all for armed retaliation. Besides, think about it the other way. If some alien species did that in a game to humans, the game would be all about the human heroes defending against the evil, greedy alien robbers. I think Raynor was acting for the "greater good" when he attacked the Tal'darim. By making money by fighting them and taking their stuff Raynor can fight more against Mengsk. I am sure Mengsk has/will kill more Protoss than Raynor, so ultimately Raynor is helping save Protoss. Mental gymnastics. Also, Mengsk and the Protoss have never cared for each other, at all. Also, if Raynor cared about Protoss lives, he would have tried some sort of diplomacy first, other than dropping in with a whole army all of a sudden. As said above, you can't have a discussion with someone who suddenly shows up inside your house bearing a shotgun. The only exchange possible becomes "get the fuck out of my house or I shoot you". | ||
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Birthday
17 Posts
On November 06 2010 20:24 Seam wrote: This reminds me of the Drama the Deathknight quests on WoW started up. For those of you who don't know, in said quests you slaughter innocents, and even kill one of your best friends. Wow, that's almost as if Death Knights were some kind of anti-paladins. oh wait | ||
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thehitman
1105 Posts
I think its a mistake on the part of Blizzard and they've proven they've made numerous mistakes in making the whole story. | ||
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Billy_
461 Posts
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xarthaz
1704 Posts
On October 09 2010 04:04 ghostunit wrote: Greetings, I'd like to discuss something that I found rather jarring in WoL's campaign and it was the whole killing the Tal'darim thing. I think this makes Raynor sort of a murderer after all. The facts are: > The only reason he did it was money. The artifacts and terrazim gas were of no importance to Raynor other than as merchandise for Tosh and the Moebius Foundation. Only until the last char mission did they turn out to be important, but that doesn't justify the original intent and decision. > The artifacts and terrazim gas were the Tal'darim's stuff. Just because you want/need someone else's stuff doesn't justify stealing and killing just so you can get what you want (money, in this case). > Instead of using diplomacy, Raynor first meets them once his army is deployed and already engaged in the whole stealing business. Even if diplomacy wouldn't work, that doesn't justify armed conflict since, again, it's THEIR stuff. > The Tal'darim are depicted as ok to kill because they are fanatics. In the first mission briefing where you fight them Tychus says "don't get teary-eyed because they are not your regular Protoss pals, they are fanatics" thus implying "these Protoss are ok to kill, it's open season on them". Which is bullshit, because if someone's not directly attacking you, you have no reason to open fire on them just because you don't like them. In conclusion, meeting the owners of something with an army and slaughtering them if they refuse to give you what you want is a pretty heinous act. Blizzard should have written this part much better, because the overall theme puts a lot of effort in painting Raynor as some sort of idealistic, flawless hero and infallible good man (even the choices you make change the past so you end up right), but these missions introduce a lot of cognitive dissonance by trying to sweep under the rug this murderous spree. Are you an anarchist? Because only anarchists can use the non-aggression argument without contradicting themselves. | ||
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Shockk
Germany2269 Posts
On November 06 2010 14:18 Hinanawi wrote: Blizzard has a long and illustrious history of making you fight someone/some group of people because "they went crazy". That's it. They're just crazy fanatics, get to it hero! Anyone who has played WoW or kept up with WoW lore knows exactly what I'm talking about. This can only be highlighted. Whenever convenient and especially in WoW, Blizzard has justified killing people or fractions because they have become "insane", "corrupted", "twisted" - or in this case, "fanatic". However, most of the time the slaughter was for some kind of greater good - usually protecting someone from the raging minions of the insanecorruptedtwistedfanatic overlord. The Taldarim may be fanatics of some kind, but it's not exactly like they're threatenin the future of the universe. They just sit there with their artifacts and Jimmy murders them for money. Yet another example for the atrocious WoL storytelling. | ||
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undyinglight
United States611 Posts
On November 12 2010 21:11 Shockk wrote: This can only be highlighted. Whenever convenient and especially in WoW, Blizzard has justified killing people or fractions because they have become "insane", "corrupted", "twisted" - or in this case, "fanatic". However, most of the time the slaughter was for some kind of greater good - usually protecting someone from the raging minions of the insanecorruptedtwistedfanatic overlord. The Taldarim may be fanatics of some kind, but it's not exactly like they're threatenin the future of the universe. They just sit there with their artifacts and Jimmy murders them for money. Yet another example for the atrocious WoL storytelling. To both of you Blizzard is a masterful storyteller, there stories are some of the greatest in existence. You shouldn't call a storyline bad just because you can't understand the drive of one of the characters. Raynor did what he did because he needed to get the Artifacts for money to fight Mengsk. | ||
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Gak2
Canada418 Posts
That whole wiping the zerg from a planet thing is probably just a secondary ability. How do I know? Because Dr. Narud is the leader of the moebius foundation which wants to collect them all. And we all know who Dr. Narud is. | ||
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teekesselchen
Germany886 Posts
On November 06 2010 10:23 Hesmyrr wrote: OMG I just realized how epic this post was. Thanks. Hahahahahaha :D Aye and a year later Kerrigan says "If I was Raynor, I had found the weapons" (I hope anyone remembers this great quote in it's original :D) Well, I've no problem with Raynor beeing not a flawless hero, but this really goes pretty much against any reasoning, nice opening post. Well, if they had sticked to this kind of character - cruel and smashing anything in his way regardless of any kind of ethics - I wouldn't have any problem with this issue. But as other points and actions he makes totally go the other way, this Tal'darim issue just is totally inconsistent about his character. One Example: In Save Haven story, he either tries to do the morally justified thing and to do everything to keep the settlers alive or he assists wiping them out but under huge qualms and also only to do the right thing for the sake of the universe and other humans. He acts altruistic either way an action fitting to egoistic/qualmless character would be totally ignoring what's happening and turn tail. | ||
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Nightfall.589
Canada766 Posts
Given that, killing people, err Protoss because he wants to pawn their stuff can't be a big stretch for him. | ||
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Yukidasu
Australia125 Posts
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