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On November 13 2010 22:01 Yukidasu wrote:
Essentially it's a somewhat grating plot hole that's a result of blizzard feeling that the protoss need to play a role in a story whose premise doesn't involve them at all. Otherwise, why are they in the game?
Legacy is about tribal diplomacy according to the old wiki link. Zeratul is the Protoss protagonist. The Tal'darim don't like the Dark Templars very much, and they also worship the mysterious Xel'Naga. So yes, they're kind of a hint for things to come. But I guess the main thing that they did was provide a narrative framework for fun missions and for somewhere to shove all of the Kerrigan related cinematics and dialogue which had come with each artifact piece.
I guess that the purpose of the Tal'Darim from WoL could be retroactively fleshed out more fully in the Protoss expansion where it belongs? We already know a little bit about them from the Terran only campaign. They're crazy worshippers who huff terrazine, and are disloyal to the Dark Templars. If we weren't going to fight Tal'Darim for it then how would it have gone? The zerg wanted it for themselves or to destroy them. If the Dominion had them, then why would they need Jim at all? The Protoss have a history with mystical magical rock since the original Zerg campaign, so yeah...
I guess you can chalk it up to Blizzard artificially extended the single player game. It's a common practice that certain developers (Hello Bioware) do in excess.
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On November 13 2010 18:54 undyinglight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2010 21:11 Shockk wrote:On November 06 2010 14:18 Hinanawi wrote:
Blizzard has a long and illustrious history of making you fight someone/some group of people because "they went crazy". That's it. They're just crazy fanatics, get to it hero!
Anyone who has played WoW or kept up with WoW lore knows exactly what I'm talking about. This can only be highlighted. Whenever convenient and especially in WoW, Blizzard has justified killing people or fractions because they have become "insane", "corrupted", "twisted" - or in this case, "fanatic". However, most of the time the slaughter was for some kind of greater good - usually protecting someone from the raging minions of the insanecorruptedtwistedfanatic overlord. The Taldarim may be fanatics of some kind, but it's not exactly like they're threatenin the future of the universe. They just sit there with their artifacts and Jimmy murders them for money. Yet another example for the atrocious WoL storytelling. To both of you Blizzard is a masterful storyteller, there stories are some of the greatest in existence. You shouldn't call a storyline bad just because you can't understand the drive of one of the characters. Raynor did what he did because he needed to get the Artifacts for money to fight Mengsk.
Blizzard's stories and plots are pretty good, considering we're talking about video games. They aren't "masterful", though. Blizzard excels at creating the right atmosphere and the mechanics to transport their story, but there are few games that truly have a "masterfully told" story (Planescape Torment comes to mind).
And I'm not calling WoL's storyline "bad". I'm calling it atrocius. And not only because of Raynor, because of everything that's been done to the oh-so promising original StarCraft setting.
But enough de-railing.
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Sorry to hear that.
To WoL's credit, it did bridge gaps in the SC1 narrative which, until now, were huge gaping plot-holes. Why did the Overmind take a physical form on Aiur where it would be vulnerable to attack? Maybe because it wanted to die. Why did it leave Kerrigan, raising whom it had made such a top priority, back on Char? Maybe because her importance was in outliving it and, eventually, bringing the Zerg back to their roots. Whether or not these things needed filling depends on who you ask.... I had assumed the Overmind simply changed the game plan once Zeratul murdered Zasz and decided that Kerrigan should deal with the DT since she wasn't a vulnerable blob of brains, so you know, I just kind of dismissed it as a change of strategy. Overminds decision to land on Auir with the knowledge that the protoss could end it's life confused me at the time, and it was even more confusing that the Zerg were steamrolling the Protoss during the Zerg campaign, but then just kind of get defeated even after Aldaris declares war on Tassadar which would most likely have ensured victory for the Zerg. Now that I've played WoL it makes sense.
Also, we really aren't clear yet on to what extent that anything is been retconned. We just got some prophetic message from a ghost, and these things are generally vague as a general rule of thumb. WoL has only scratched the surface, are you sure that calling it atrocious isn't premature? I haven't actually read the SCI manual, so I don't know how much SCII has gone against that.
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On November 14 2010 00:21 Billy_ wrote:
Sorry to hear that.
To WoL's credit, it did bridge gaps in the SC1 narrative which, until now, were huge gaping plot-holes. Why did the Overmind take a physical form on Aiur where it would be vulnerable to attack? Maybe because it wanted to die. Why did it leave Kerrigan, raising whom it had made such a top priority, back on Char? Maybe because her importance was in outliving it and, eventually, bringing the Zerg back to their roots. Whether or not these things needed filling depends on who you ask.... I had assumed the Overmind simply changed the game plan once Zeratul murdered Zasz and decided that Kerrigan should deal with the DT since she wasn't a vulnerable blob of brains, so you know, I just kind of dismissed it as a change of strategy. Overminds decision to land on Auir with the knowledge that the protoss could end it's life confused me at the time, and it was even more confusing that the Zerg were steamrolling the Protoss during the Zerg campaign, but then just kind of get defeated even after Aldaris declares war on Tassadar which would most likely have ensured victory for the Zerg. Now that I've played WoL it makes sense.
Also, we really aren't clear yet on to what extent that anything is been retconned. We just got some prophetic message from a ghost, and these things are generally vague as a general rule of thumb. WoL has only scratched the surface, are you sure that calling it atrocious isn't premature? I haven't actually read the SCI manual, so I don't know how much SCII has gone against that.
And if i say that the Overmind went to Aiur knowing the protoss there cant really kill him? Maybe because the dark templars are banished from Aiur?
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On November 14 2010 00:21 Billy_ wrote:
Sorry to hear that.
To WoL's credit, it did bridge gaps in the SC1 narrative which, until now, were huge gaping plot-holes. Why did the Overmind take a physical form on Aiur where it would be vulnerable to attack? Maybe because it wanted to die. Why did it leave Kerrigan, raising whom it had made such a top priority, back on Char? Maybe because her importance was in outliving it and, eventually, bringing the Zerg back to their roots. Whether or not these things needed filling depends on who you ask.... I had assumed the Overmind simply changed the game plan once Zeratul murdered Zasz and decided that Kerrigan should deal with the DT since she wasn't a vulnerable blob of brains, so you know, I just kind of dismissed it as a change of strategy. Overminds decision to land on Auir with the knowledge that the protoss could end it's life confused me at the time, and it was even more confusing that the Zerg were steamrolling the Protoss during the Zerg campaign, but then just kind of get defeated even after Aldaris declares war on Tassadar which would most likely have ensured victory for the Zerg. Now that I've played WoL it makes sense.
Also, we really aren't clear yet on to what extent that anything is been retconned. We just got some prophetic message from a ghost, and these things are generally vague as a general rule of thumb. WoL has only scratched the surface, are you sure that calling it atrocious isn't premature? I haven't actually read the SCI manual, so I don't know how much SCII has gone against that.
The Overmind had to go to Aiur so the Zerg could assimilate the Protoss. What, are you just going to bring the Protoss race all back to Char?
And Kerrigan specifically stayed behind to kill the remaining Protoss.
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I have a question, if the Tal'darim hate the Dark Templar... why do they use Stalkers? Stalkers are Dark Templar fused into those mechanical shells. So, why do they use Stalkers?
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Raynor is clearly the aggressor, but there are some atenuating circumstances:
*Raynor only wanted their stuff, not to exterminate the Tal'Darim
*Tal'Darim were not willing to talk, negotiate or barter. They reduced Raynor's options to 'GTFO' or 'Fight'
*Raynor did not go around slaughtering Tal'Darim, he only cut down those who openly wanted to fight him and even then he picked up and left as soon as he got what he wanted.
*Looking at the way the Tal'Darim behaved, Raynor was probably a lot more reasonable and merciful than the Tal'Darim would've been, were their roles reversed.
*Raynor was fighting for a good cause (i.e. opposing Mengsk's tyranny). The ends don't justify the means, I know, but it's a consideration.
Raynor's actions were not morally impeccable, to be sure. But it's not like he was violating some previously accepted social contract and gravely wronging the Tal'Darim- if there are no preestablished terms for dialogue and dealing with one another, then you make up the terms of engagement as you go- and the Tal'Darim weren't exactly cooperating towards a peaceful arrangement.
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On November 17 2010 09:21 Aegis Runestone wrote:
I have a question, if the Tal'darim hate the Dark Templar... why do they use Stalkers? Stalkers are Dark Templar fused into those mechanical shells. So, why do they use Stalkers?
Good point there!
Maybe they fused their own zealots...
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Canada13407 Posts
On November 18 2010 08:20 FinestHour wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 09:21 Aegis Runestone wrote:
I have a question, if the Tal'darim hate the Dark Templar... why do they use Stalkers? Stalkers are Dark Templar fused into those mechanical shells. So, why do they use Stalkers? Good point there! Maybe they fused their own zealots...
I think that Blizzard just simply ignored the lore on this one though hopefully they don't make the same mistake in the future. we need an SC2 red shirt guy on our side to make sure our lore doesn't get messed up either. Red shirt FTW
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On November 17 2010 09:21 Aegis Runestone wrote:
I have a question, if the Tal'darim hate the Dark Templar... why do they use Stalkers? Stalkers are Dark Templar fused into those mechanical shells. So, why do they use Stalkers?
In the book, the Tal'darim have been so brainwashed by Ulrezaj (A dark archon fused with 7 dark templar) that they themselves did not notice that they had become dark templar.
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Then why do they have immortals? Or better yet: why do they have access to all those new tecnology created in Shakuras (Void Ray, Stalker, Immortal, Warp Prism), when they never went there?
Colossi: fine.
Mothership: fine.
VR? Stalker? Immortal? Doesn't make sense, IMO.
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It is an unacceptable plothole and it has made the whole of WoL incoherent. Blizz deserve to have a horde of Zerglings unleashed upon them for this travesty, yes.
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On November 18 2010 23:48 Billy_ wrote:
It is an unacceptable plothole and it has made the whole of WoL incoherent. Blizz deserve to have a horde of Zerglings unleashed upon them for this travesty, yes.
whoop, here's Billy the fanboy coming in to defend everything about WoL. Right on time too.
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On November 18 2010 15:44 Reaper9 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 09:21 Aegis Runestone wrote:
I have a question, if the Tal'darim hate the Dark Templar... why do they use Stalkers? Stalkers are Dark Templar fused into those mechanical shells. So, why do they use Stalkers? In the book, the Tal'darim have been so brainwashed by Ulrezaj (A dark archon fused with 7 dark templar) that they themselves did not notice that they had become dark templar.
Ah... that makes sense. Thanks.
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On November 10 2010 03:23 ghostunit wrote:@Humga and @undyinglight Please read the original post, looks like you didn't. Anyways, Show nested quote +YES it is wrong to steal...but if you are a robber stealing from some guys house is it ok for the owner of the house to try to kill you? and if he did that wouldn't you try to defend? Yeah, it's like you suddenly found someone in your house who's armed to the teeth (just picture this in your house, would you not shoot someone who breaks into your family house carrying an assault rifle?). So anyways, you actually tell him first to get the fuck out of your house but he replies "sure, just let me take some of your stuff and make some room here so that my also armed-to-the-teeth buddies can also stay while I steal from you, k?". Yeah, that's totally like a recipe for peaceful diplomatic discussion and not at all for armed retaliation. Besides, think about it the other way. If some alien species did that in a game to humans, the game would be all about the human heroes defending against the evil, greedy alien robbers. Show nested quote +I think Raynor was acting for the "greater good" when he attacked the Tal'darim. By making money by fighting them and taking their stuff Raynor can fight more against Mengsk. I am sure Mengsk has/will kill more Protoss than Raynor, so ultimately Raynor is helping save Protoss. Mental gymnastics. Also, Mengsk and the Protoss have never cared for each other, at all. Also, if Raynor cared about Protoss lives, he would have tried some sort of diplomacy first, other than dropping in with a whole army all of a sudden. As said above, you can't have a discussion with someone who suddenly shows up inside your house bearing a shotgun. The only exchange possible becomes "get the fuck out of my house or I shoot you".
What makes you think i didn't read the original post? How would i know what to talk about if i didn't?
In regards to your opinion. I do not believe so. I think and the courts would agree with me, that killing is not the right way to deal with someone stealing.
I can totally understand why the Taldarim would try to defend the relics to the death, it's there religion. Jim Raynor however does not obviously believe in the Taldarim religion therefore when he tries to steal something and is fired upon, it is justifiable to defend himself.
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Not to intrude on this discussion,but isn't the first canonical actual meeting with the Tal'darim.The Dig.Raynor goes down to the planet,not knowing what cleared the science expedition.
There the Taldarim greet him with."More terran thieves,you will pay for youre transgressions with you're life"Im not sure,thou those are the main missions.
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EPT
