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Greetings, I'd like to discuss something that I found rather jarring in WoL's campaign and it was the whole killing the Tal'darim thing. I think this makes Raynor sort of a murderer after all.
The facts are:
> The only reason he did it was money. The artifacts and terrazim gas were of no importance to Raynor other than as merchandise for Tosh and the Moebius Foundation. Only until the last char mission did they turn out to be important, but that doesn't justify the original intent and decision.
> The artifacts and terrazim gas were the Tal'darim's stuff. Just because you want/need someone else's stuff doesn't justify stealing and killing just so you can get what you want (money, in this case).
> Instead of using diplomacy, Raynor first meets them once his army is deployed and already engaged in the whole stealing business. Even if diplomacy wouldn't work, that doesn't justify armed conflict since, again, it's THEIR stuff.
> The Tal'darim are depicted as ok to kill because they are fanatics. In the first mission briefing where you fight them Tychus says "don't get teary-eyed because they are not your regular Protoss pals, they are fanatics" thus implying "these Protoss are ok to kill, it's open season on them". Which is bullshit, because if someone's not directly attacking you, you have no reason to open fire on them just because you don't like them.
In conclusion, meeting the owners of something with an army and slaughtering them if they refuse to give you what you want is a pretty heinous act.
Blizzard should have written this part much better, because the overall theme puts a lot of effort in painting Raynor as some sort of idealistic, flawless hero and infallible good man (even the choices you make change the past so you end up right), but these missions introduce a lot of cognitive dissonance by trying to sweep under the rug this murderous spree.
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Here's why I don't have a problem with it:
1. Raynor isn't a saint. He's murdered before to get what he wants. He's part of a terrorist organization whose main goal (outside of the storyline of WoL) is to depose of the current, legitimate ruler of the Dominion.
2. The Tal'darim aren't completely innocent, either. If I remember correctly, they're a splinter group from the Aiur Protoss who don't want unification with the Dark Templar. Since Raynor was (and perhaps still is, due to his friendship with Zeratul) a friend to the Dark Templar and the Aiur refugees, it's natural that he'd have been the enemy of the Tal-darim simply by his past associations without "stealing" from them.
3. At the end of the day, why should the rules of ownership and etiquette apply to an alien race? What if the planet had been held by the Zerg? What if the Zerg decided they "owned" the planet and didn't want to let the Terrans take the terrazine? Would you have expected Raynor to negotiate with them? How come you're not up in arms about Raynor stealing minerals for Tosh from areas clearly "owned" by the Zerg on Redstone?
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@1: I don't have a problem with Raynor not being a saint, but with the hypocrisy of the game trying to convince me so at every single damn turn. WoL tries hard in every mission, cinematic, dramatic scene and overblown music composition to tell you what to think about the characters.
Contrast with the original SC if you will, which narrates things pretty much matter of fact and doesn't try to sell you any ideas.
@2: I think this is the main problem, this way of thinking that it's ok to wrong other people if you don't like them or any number of excuses such as "well, they aren't really using their land/stuff well" (original US settlers regarding native americans) or "they weren't so innocent after all" (colonial nations justifying their slaughter and oppression by citing crimes committed by previous regime).
Even in this case where they have supposedly committed crimes against other Protoss (and this is never exposed in WoL), no one's asking Raynor to, of all things, use the bluntest of instruments (war) to make things "better".
@3: Doesn't apply, the Zerg are an evil race against which everyone's currently at war. The Zerg are not really even sentient, and even if they were, their past slaughters and current goals of annihilation does justify declaring open season on them.
Also, the rules of ownership and etiquette apply between every sentient race, not just humans. Otherwise you would have un-ending war.
Anyways, Blizzard should have come up with a real reason to fight Protoss other than "I like money!!!". This weakens their characterization even more.
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It's Raynor's Raiders. Raiders steal things. You attack the raiders - you die.
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SC1 and SC2 are completely different games. You don't have a choice over Raynor's actions in SC1, but you do have a limited amount of choice in his actions in SC2. He's definitely supposed to be a good guy, but I don't think that you can read into it more than that.
I think this is the main problem, this way of thinking that if you don't like someone it's ok to wrong them.
Doesn't apply, the Zerg are an evil race against which everyone's currently at war. The Zerg are not really even sentient, and even if they were, their past slaughters and current goals of annihilation does make it open season on them.
You don't see the logical disconnect here? Raynor doesn't agree with the Tal'darim on a very basic level -- the Tal'darim want his Dark Templar friends dead and anybody who associates with them. It's not some friendly ideological dispute -- they're enemies! The Tal'darim are evil in Raynor's opinion. But it's not okay to wrong somebody because you don't agree with them (e.g., because you think they're evil) ...
And then we have the Zerg who want to achieve perfection through infesting all other races and incorporating them into the swarm. Raynor and the Zerg are enemies! The Zerg are evil in Raynor's opinion. But it's not okay to wrong somebody because you don't agree with them (e.g., because you think they're evil) ...
I guess it all comes down to sentience for you. Is the Queen of Blades sentient? Was the overmind sentient? You'd have to agree that they are, in as much as humans or Protoss are. Since Zerg share consciousness, wouldn't that mean that every Zerg in contact with Kerrigan is sentient (or at least an extension of her sentience)?
Also, the rules of ownership and etiquette apply between every sentient race, not just humans.
You're splitting hairs, here. There's no definite proof that the Zerg can't be considered sentient. Furthermore, it's rather arbitrary to say that it's only wrong to do evil things against sentient creatures (you're also basically saying that animal cruelty [non-sentient creatures] isn't morally wrong if this is your argument). Finally, I'd refute your claim that rules of ownership and etiquette are universal in the Starcraft universe (or beyond):
1. Even WITHIN human cultures, they aren't. For example, native Americans for long periods of time had no comparable concept of land ownership that immigrant Europeans had. Another example: slavery -- for some cultures it was okay to own ANOTHER HUMAN BEING as property for much of our history, and it wasn't abolished universally at the same time either.
2. In the Starcraft universe, the Protoss glassed Mar Sara and Chau Sara simply because of the threat of Zerg infestation without caring or considering that the planets had been claimed and colonized by Terrans for decades. They simply didn't respect Terran claims of ownership (or etiquette, considering they killed all the Terrans on the surface to eradicate the Zerg as well).
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Morals don't count when you're the "good guy."
Yes, the irony is both recognized and intended.
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I agree with OP. I do feel it is very out of character for Jim Raynor for me. As I see it, Blizzard seems to "fix" the unnaturalness by making his new character change explainable away by references that we never experienced in previous materials. They should have continued on his character from Brood War and make us experience his character development.
It feels unnatural of Raynor when he decided to make enemies of the Tal`darim who were minding their business guarding the artifaces in a snap decision after just only a little talk with them rather than trying to negotiate a little longer. Previously, he would be the type that crack jokes but still respect his peers and understand when not to in a serious situation. The change to his SC2 character just projects out his lacking in principles to me which contradicts with the honourable thief/robber (who became a sheriff) they were trying to portray as.
In other words, this is Jim Raynor only in name with a new character. Hmm.. now that I think about it, it would have been better(and maybe perfect) if it was Valerian Mengsk(original plan?) and they'd just modify some missions and portrayals a bit. Blizzard should patch this retcon. It makes much better sense considering what I read about him in the books. To me.
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I can see where you're coming from Ghostunit, but i agree with Toxigen because you're not applying the same rules to everyone, in your point of view it's ok to take from the zerg because they don't think for themselves, they don't know any better. In anycase, if your going to protect 1 person, you have to protect all of them. Basis of American society today, everyone has the same rights (or so we like to hope....)
On October 09 2010 04:14 Toxigen wrote:
3. At the end of the day, why should the rules of ownership and etiquette apply to an alien race? What if the planet had been held by the Zerg? What if the Zerg decided they "owned" the planet and didn't want to let the Terrans take the terrazine? Would you have expected Raynor to negotiate with them? How come you're not up in arms about Raynor stealing minerals for Tosh from areas clearly "owned" by the Zerg on Redstone?
Also Pat 965 had another good point. They are Raynor's Raiders. They are pirates/terrorists. They take shit for their own gain.
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Sometime to achieve the greater goal, certain sacrifice has to be made. Sure, Raynor did a lot of morally dubious stuff but he definitely think that it is worth it for the greater 'good'/goal. This kind of things make the game more realistic than the normal black and white good guy/bad guy stuff 
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The Taldar'im are a fanatical protoss tribe that were under the control of the hybrid/dark voice. you learn about this during Zeratul's liberation of the 3 prophets...
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Which doesn`t mean anything.
This is not about whether it was objectively ok to attack them, but about Jim Raynors character.
For Jim Raynor, the only motivation to attack the Taldarim in the first place was just money. He wanted to steal the artifact from them, because he would be paid for it. Since i generally don`t read books-to-games, because they usually suck, i don`t know whether he has any backstory with them that makes them his enemy. Unless this is the cause, that is a bit out of character.
Raynor is known to be a friend of non-insane protoss, and generally accept them as a different kind of people instead of "strange aliens". Also, Raynor is not known for running around and stealing stuff from random people. He is more or less depicted as a Robin Hood type of character, who steals from evil people to support good people. And now he randomly attacks some guys because they have an artifact he wants. Of course, if he has some backstory with them, this might be different, but from what you see in game, it felt pretty strage to see him do this.
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1. Raynor isn't saint.He's not considered to be a "good guy" because he doesn't do anything bad. If it was so, he would be some kind of Jesus Christ, Mahatma Ghandi or something like that. He wouldn't fight against anyone (forget about Zerg - what about all the Dominion troops he killed?) - instead he would spread word of love, peace and equality...
2. It's not that he's stealing the artifacts "just for money". Let me remind you that there was a zerg invasion going on - an unspeakable thread. Almost a certain annihilation.
To have at least a bit of chance of surviving it (and we talk about survival of the mankind) he had to build up a decent military force. And to do it he needed money! It doesn't turn stealing into something moral, but what choice did he get?
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On October 09 2010 06:04 NastyMarine wrote:
The Taldar'im are a fanatical protoss tribe that were under the control of the hybrid/dark voice. you learn about this during Zeratul's liberation of the 3 prophets...
This answers your question's man! and I think that if you read the novels those tal'darim guys are evil drug addicts that can't be rehabilitated.
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You all got it wrong, Raynor only attacked the Tal'darim because they possess weapons of mass destruction.
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Well, but killing people because you want their stuff is one of the most universally ethically wrong things. And in the face of a very grim zerg invasion, is the ideal choice really to make additional enemies?
While Raynor might not be a saint, he is still pictured as a person with an intact moral compass, who should realize that killing people and stealing from their remains is not a very good thing to do. However, in the campaign, he doesn`t even seem to think about it a second time, he has no moral with it. And this seems really out of character. I mean, in the campaign, every decision of Raynors turns out to be the right one anyways, which is pretty strange anyways.
Also, it does not matter whether or not they ARE evil. The relevant fact is whether Raynor KNOWS that they are evil, or just goes there, kills them, and is lucky that they turn out evil afterwards. This is just to make the player feel that it is ethically no problem that he killed those guys, since they are evil. But the player is not an entity within the system, so his knowledge is not relevant. The point is that inside the system, Raynor made the decision to attack the Taldarim, kill them, and steal their sacred relicts.
To my knowledge, he has at that point no information about those guys except that they have an artifact, and that he will get money if he delivers that artifact. He needs money to buy weapons to fight evil zerg. But that is not a justification to kill random people and take their money, as he surely knows. Which is exactly what he does there, unless i am missing some piece of information here.
It just feels like a really strange decision
"Hm, so Zerg are invading all of the dominionspace. Also, Mengsk is still ruling the dominion, and i do not like him at all. So, what should i do? Ah, lets attack some protoss on some random world, because i want their money!"
Those guys are pretty much only there so that the campaign is not only TvT and TvZ. At least that is the feel one gets here.
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I think Raynor is sort of the Chaotic Good alignment while the Tal'darim are sort of the Lawful Evil alignment. Raynor is of course by no means a saint but he's on the side of "good" so to speak, evil being The Dark Voice that wants to burn the whole galaxy. In other words, as far as Raynor is concerned, the end justifies the means. He'll do anything he has to do to save the galaxy.
Notice how he killed one of his oldest best friends just to save Kerrigan, and even though he's supposed to have feelings for her, I think the main reason he did it was because of what Zeratul told him that she has to survive.
I really don't see a problem with Raynor having to fight and kill the Tal'darim in order to progress with his missions. He's no saint as it's been said in this thread several times but he's on the side of good so far in the story.
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On October 09 2010 07:36 Simberto wrote:
The relevant fact is whether Raynor KNOWS that they are evil, or just goes there, kills them, and is lucky that they turn out evil afterwards.
This is really the only thing that really matters. Raynor knows the Zerg are evil, so he has no problem killing them pretty indiscriminately. What about the Tal'darim? It's a little bit more vague. Tychus tells Raynor not to worry about fighting them -- they aren't his usual Protoss buddies. This doesn't necessarily mean that this is Raynor's introduction to the Tal'darim, if anything it only indicates that Tychus doesn't know exactly how much Raynor knows or doesn't know about the Protoss (which should be considerable if you remember how much time he spent with them in the Brood War).
To my knowledge, he has at that point no information about those guys except that they have an artifact, and that he will get money if he delivers that artifact. He needs money to buy weapons to fight evil zerg. But that is not a justification to kill random people and take their money, as he surely knows. Which is exactly what he does there, unless i am missing some piece of information here.
Again, it's possible he already knows who the Tal'darim are. Remember, ever since he went looking for Kerrigan on Char in SC1 up until the death of Fenix in BW, he pretty much was hanging out with Protoss non-stop. All through Tassadar and Zeratul on Char. All the way through the Zerg invasion and fighting the Conclave on Aiur. He was even part of the exodus to Shakuras (but stayed on the Aiur side of the gate to shut it down, where the Tal'darim subsequently develop).
Also, in the Terrazine mission, the Protoss throw the first punch when Raynor (reasonably) says all he wants is the terrazine and then he'll leave. Why should Raynor respect some random, fringe-group Protoss' claim to anything? They weren't willing to listen to reason or negotiate.
If you're talking about the mission to retrieve the artifact, isn't he racing to acquire it before Kerrigan takes it from the Protoss? Wouldn't that still count towards the greater goal of stopping Kerrigan's domination of the Koprulu sector if it meant stepping on some Protoss toes along the way?
But if Raynor didn't know who the Tal'darim were and didn't care, is he no longer a "good" guy?
Why is it wrong for a Terran to take what he wants from Protoss he doesn't know? I mean, he's friends with Zeratul, Artanis and Fenix -- he wouldn't betray his friends. But some random Protoss guy? Screw you, buddy -- I don't even know you! Why does Raynor have to be this paragon of virtue and justice? I mean, you can choose to betray Tosh if you want. You can choose to help the Protoss eradicate the infected colonists. Both those choices are pretty questionable. The difference is that I don't see these actions conflicting with Raynor's character in any other part of SC2.
If anything, the campaign portrays Raynor as a tired, broken-down, has-been drunk who can't stop the cycle of vengeance he's embroiled in. He hates the Queen of Blades for killing the woman he loved (Sarah Kerrigan) and his best friend (Fenix), but then still can't bring himself to try and stop her because of the fleeting chance he could save Sarah. He hates Mengsk more for betraying Kerrigan (and making her what she is now) in his grab for power than he hates Mengsk for currently being a dictator. I mean -- he'd rather make a deal with Valerian to solidify his position in the Dominion as heir and save Kerrigan than finish off the Mengsks' rule of the Dominion. I'd still call him a "good" guy -- despite his failures and character flaws, he still generally tries to help people (read: Terrans) and do what's right (in his eyes).
However, he's not a saint. In a fair world, with Kerrigan weakened, she deserved to die (let's disregard the prophecy for the moment -- they might already have put it in jeopardy by killing the Queen of Blades by bringing Sarah back). She was partly responsible for the deaths of millions, perhaps billions. He didn't necessarily have to kill Tychus to save her, but his (selfish) love for her was way more important than Tychus' life in his estimation -- he didn't even hesitate.
If anything, Matt Horner is the "white knight" that everybody in this thread is wishing that Jim Raynor was. But I think that's entirely intentional. Jim Raynor isn't trying to be a hero and probably doesn't want to be. He's not out to bring justice and order to the universe. He's out to kill Arcturus and save Sarah Kerrigan (or kill her as the Queen of Blades) and pretty much doesn't care about anything else.
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Baa?21244 Posts
Hey man, the overmind died saving all of you nerds, lay off the Zerg. >: (
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Why would people complain about Raynors morals? He didn't mind using the psi emitters for Arcturus against the confederate outpost.
As for the Tal'Darim...
He did try to reason with them on the terrazine mission. And it's optional, so you don't have to do it.
You don't attack the Tal'Darim for the artifacts. They attack you first, and this is after Jim confirmed that the Zerg want the artifacts. That one time on Mar Sara may have been luck, but twice in a row is hardly a cooincidence
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I also was a bit disturbed while playing this, but it fits Raynor, who seems pretty much like a pragmatist. I would have liked to see more consequences for doing it though. Sure you get your money but all subsequent missions have extra enemy protoss, for example. The way it was written was kind of lame, trying to justify it morally.
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