EPTThe only mission versus the Tal'Darim Iwhich I had a problem with was the terrazine gas mission, which was because at the time I had no clues as to why Jim would risk making enemies with them for cash. But then I fought them again in the next mission while competing with the Zerg to get the second artifact piece, so I thought to myself that the terrazine mission didn't change anything in the overall scheme of the plot.
Dubious morals of the Raynor/Tal'darim affair - Page 4
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Billy_
461 Posts
The only mission versus the Tal'Darim Iwhich I had a problem with was the terrazine gas mission, which was because at the time I had no clues as to why Jim would risk making enemies with them for cash. But then I fought them again in the next mission while competing with the Zerg to get the second artifact piece, so I thought to myself that the terrazine mission didn't change anything in the overall scheme of the plot. | ||
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.Aar
2177 Posts
"All I ever wanted was for folks to live free." That's supposed to be the defining quote for Raynor. Murdering Protoss for items he doesn't necessarily need doesn't quite jive with that. | ||
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Billy_
461 Posts
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kojinshugi
Estonia2559 Posts
On October 11 2010 15:44 .Aar wrote: You guys present long arguments about Raynor having to do what he has to do, but.. "All I ever wanted was for folks to live free." That's supposed to be the defining quote for Raynor. Murdering Protoss for items he doesn't necessarily need doesn't quite jive with that. Religious fanatics aren't "folks". And taking some gas and leaving isn't impinging on anyone's freedoms. Again, Raynor is a redneck. His notion of "freedom" means "not forced to do what you don't want to do by the gummint". He has no capacity for culturally sensitive, diplomatic nuance, and he doesn't care about alien religious taboos anymore than Burt Reynolds characters care for speed limits. He's Jim Raynor, not Jean-Luc Picard. | ||
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strongwind
United States862 Posts
SC2 Raynor = Redneck Cowboy Redneck Cowboys = dumb, culturally insensitive, and amoral Funny, I never thought of SC1 Raynor in such a negative light. I guess a lot can change in 12 years! | ||
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kojinshugi
Estonia2559 Posts
On October 11 2010 16:31 strongwind wrote: I guess the concensus is that SC2 Raynor = Redneck Cowboy Redneck Cowboys = dumb, culturally insensitive, and amoral Funny, I never thought of SC1 Raynor in such a negative light. I guess a lot can change in 12 years! But Raynor isn't amoral. He's very morally upright about some things (hurting innocents, breaking his word). Other things, not so much. Me, personally, I wouldn't give two shits about what the Tal'darim consider sacred. It's gas. I want it. Take your prophecies and shove em. Just because you have a belief doesn't mean I have to respect it above all else. It's not like he broke into their houses and stole their furniture and now their children have nowhere to sleep. He went to a planet and took a little bit of natural resources. He didn't stripmine the place - there's no rational reason for the Tal'darim to object. And the artifacts weren't even made by the Tal'darim, they belong to the Xel'naga. | ||
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bigjenk
United States1543 Posts
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Tracil
Australia505 Posts
It is raiding and piracy of a group of people who have done you no wrong and you have no reason to expect will in the future, for what amounts to petty cash. Whether this is IC for Raynor or not, I cannot see this as being morally upright in the slightest, and is in fact a pretty brutal, murderous things to do. The moral dissonance comes from the story literally bending over backwards to show Raynor in the best possible way, and we're supposed to accept this as an okay thing to do! | ||
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PhoenixM1
United States178 Posts
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Billy_
461 Posts
On October 11 2010 17:54 PhoenixM1 wrote: It's amazing how the character Jim Raynor is able to spawn an entire ethics debate! It doesn't even end there! We've got people bringing up slavery, animal rights, Terrorists and insulting "redneck cowboys" as a whole! Truly amazing. I agree. Well, he was alright with attacking Korhal to get some dirt on Mengsk. The news cast indicated that a lot of innocent people died that day. And he didn't mind either betraying Tosh who was nothing but helpful. Or releasing thousands of potentially murderers, rapists, drug dealers and other criminal scum. And don't give me that shit about the game validating your choice with Matts "we did the right thing" conversation, there is NO WAY that they could be sure that everyone on the manifest were not an immoral terrorist or thug. New Folsom could have had a hundered Tycheses for every politcal prisoner. He also cooperated with Arcturus to lure the Zerg onto the confederate outpost in SCI. Can't remember if they had innocents or not, but it just seems like Jim was only in it because of gratitude for breaking him out of jail. If he had a reason to hate the confederates so much I didn't see it, and he was just one man in an already large army. But that's okay, educate me please. | ||
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PhoenixM1
United States178 Posts
On October 11 2010 18:04 Billy_ wrote: I agree. Well, he was alright with attacking Korhal to get some dirt on Mengsk. The news cast indicated that a lot of innocent people died that day. And he didn't mind either betraying Tosh who was nothing but helpful. Or releasing thousands of potentially murderers, rapists, drug dealers and other criminal scum. And don't give me that shit about the game validating your choice with Matts "we did the right thing" conversation, there is NO WAY that they could be sure that everyone on the manifest were not an immoral terrorist or thug. New Folsom could have had a hundered Tycheses for every politcal prisoner. He also cooperated with Arcturus to lure the Zerg onto the confederate outpost in SCI. Can't remember if they had innocents or not, but it just seems like Jim was only in it because of gratitude for breaking him out of jail. If he had a reason to hate the confederates so much I didn't see it, and he was just one man in an already large army. But that's okay, educate me please. Your post makes sense just fine. All except the end quote there. To whom are you are you talking to? You quoted what I said but that certainly couldn't have been directed at me because nothing you said was in any way a rebuttal to what I said. So who is it exactly that is planning on educating you? | ||
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kojinshugi
Estonia2559 Posts
On October 11 2010 17:48 Tracil wrote: Man, so people don't actually question the morality of killing a bunch of people to get at natural resources they possess, with the simple second-hand justification of 'oh they're just fanatics' being enough reason to waive any rights they may have had? The hell are you talking about? Raynor told them "we're just here to get some gas, we're not looking for trouble". The Tal'darim attacked them, not for taking a small amount of natural resources, but for sacrilege. | ||
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specs
United States22 Posts
The mission where the zerg are invading and trying to get the artifact cant even be put to a moral standard because the toss were losing badly and if jim didnt take it the zerg would have. and lets not forget what happened on haven. Although i guess haven wasnt the tal darim, but it demonstrates how well the protoss negotiate. | ||
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Licmyobelisk
Philippines3682 Posts
On October 10 2010 05:02 hellokitty[hk] wrote: If you don't want to "kill" people, don't play starcraft/video games. I find this too funny that hello kitty just told this guy to bugger off  | ||
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Toxigen
United States390 Posts
On October 10 2010 13:45 yrag89 wrote: I know this is the lore. But funny how we can see Stalkers and Void Ray in the Taldarim Army when they hate Dark Templars. I personally hated this part of it too, because even the campaign is even complicit with it -- when you're doing that first Smash and Grab mission, the mission even advises you to "watch how the marauders handle those stalkers" or some garbage. Would it really have been that hard to have old-school dragoons designs for those couple of missions, Blizzard? Were void rays really necessary when you already went old school with the scouts in Welcome to the Jungle? Lazy, lazy, lazy ... no other explanation. | ||
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Toxigen
United States390 Posts
On October 11 2010 15:44 .Aar wrote: You guys present long arguments about Raynor having to do what he has to do, but.. "All I ever wanted was for folks to live free." That's supposed to be the defining quote for Raynor. Murdering Protoss for items he doesn't necessarily need doesn't quite jive with that. Protoss aren't "folks." They obviously don't count. If anything, Raynor is less a murderer and more a species-ist (not really racist, I guess). | ||
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wollhandkrabbe
Germany97 Posts
Seriously, people seem to ignore that the whole premise of SC or any RTS for that matter is armed conflict aka war. Thats why the stories of most RTS games are quite phoney - the reasons why two factions shoot at each other are not limitless. After a few missions they all sound lame and made up. Replay BW and you will probably find similarities. I actually didn't care about Raynor being all FU whoever stands in my way. The hair implant took away a lot of his white knight-cred I guess. | ||
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Mataza
Germany5364 Posts
The Taldarim have artifacts the zerg swarm is after. It is quite elaborated that the Protoss who are not the Dark Templar die like flies to them. That is from smash&grab onward always the case. The Terrazin business however was kinda mean. On the other hand they shot first. The notion that they´re fanatics was to imply they won´t negotiate. | ||
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Madkipz
Norway1643 Posts
On October 11 2010 18:04 Billy_ wrote: I agree. Well, he was alright with attacking Korhal to get some dirt on Mengsk. The news cast indicated that a lot of innocent people died that day. And he didn't mind either betraying Tosh who was nothing but helpful. Or releasing thousands of potentially murderers, rapists, drug dealers and other criminal scum. And don't give me that shit about the game validating your choice with Matts "we did the right thing" conversation, there is NO WAY that they could be sure that everyone on the manifest were not an immoral terrorist or thug. New Folsom could have had a hundered Tycheses for every politcal prisoner. He also cooperated with Arcturus to lure the Zerg onto the confederate outpost in SCI. Can't remember if they had innocents or not, but it just seems like Jim was only in it because of gratitude for breaking him out of jail. If he had a reason to hate the confederates so much I didn't see it, and he was just one man in an already large army. But that's okay, educate me please. The game makes it a right choice regardless of what you choose. If you release the people in new folsom they are all good guys. if you betray tosh his ghosts are all bad guys. as for sc1, he cooperated because there was no other choice but he did not morally agree, it caused a divide between them. | ||
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dukethegold
Canada5645 Posts
Don't you find it RIDICULOUS that Raynor would sacrifice his raider boys for some artifact raid against some Protoss who never lifted a finger against Raynor for some CASH? I mean, it's not only the Protoss who are losing their lives over the entire affair, Raynor is sending his own boys out there to death for some MONEY! | ||
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