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On June 18 2023 23:07 Pandemona wrote:
From what i have seen i see Nkunku as a hazard like player and Kai needed to play off a striker, he got that chance with Lukaku and still rarely scored that season as well.
Kai is a good player without a position, he could potentially play as a 10 and maybe the Arsenal system will help him with the high 8 role he will play but im not sure. He also is struggling to find a position in the Germany set up as well.
Next season we are going with strikers and then Nkunku as 10. Kai isn't a striker so he would be competing for that spot with Nkunku so that why he might see himself not playing as much. He didn't play there before because we didn't have any striker and our silly coaches kept putting him there lol.
Yeah I see what you mean. But its just that to me Nkunku is not on par....but hey i've been wrong a lot before so what do I know.
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Havertz is definitely better than nkunku yeah but frenchies are the latest craze atm hehe
Havertz is a generational talent for Germany imo and they should build a team around him if not gundogan
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Well for the last 2 years the team under Flick was with Kai and they haven't done much have they. But yeah we shall see.
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Northern Ireland27200 Posts
On June 19 2023 00:41 sharkie wrote:
Havertz is definitely better than nkunku yeah but frenchies are the latest craze atm hehe
Havertz is a generational talent for Germany imo and they should build a team around him if not gundogan
He’s a generational talent few seem to know what to do with.
His ceiling may be higher, equally I can see Nkunku being more effective and hit the ground running given you don’t really need to build a whole team around him.
I hope somebody does crack the puzzle as he’s clearly a very classy operator with a pretty unique toolkit
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On June 19 2023 02:18 Pandemona wrote:
Well for the last 2 years the team under Flick was with Kai and they haven't done much have they. But yeah we shall see.
Yeah but thats because Flick didnt build the team around him.
Flick keeps trying to build the team around Kimmich
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On June 18 2023 05:49 Hildegard wrote:
Germany hasn't had a real striker since Klose. Ever since he retired, Germany has had huge problems against teams that park the bus. Against teams like Spain, that go for possession, too, Germany is much stronger.
Fwiw, Klose was in some way past his prime in 2014 and might not have played all that much had Gomez not missed out on the tournament due to injuries. Iirc before the tournament Gomez missing out was seen as a major dent to the hopes of the team.
But that doesnt change anything about the current situation. And while obviously an out-and-out striker would be a major asset, I dont think that is (or at least has been in qatar) the only issue. Against japan in particular, but really in all 3 games at the world cup, if the whole team had converted their chances into goals at just a slightly below regular rate, this striker problem would be just a minor inconvenience instead of a footballing existential crisis.
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Whilst the meta has evolved in recent years, a traditional no 9 is definitely a key to success at the highest level. The main difference is that the no 9 has to be more dynamic. Able to be patient and efficient enough to score goals with half chances and minimal touches. But also flexible enough to drop deep, hold up play, and make runs to open up space. In modern football, every role requires technical ability (including keepers and defenders). Being a goal poacher is not enough. Gone are the days of Inzaghis and Shearers.
Today, the ideal no 9 needs to be a complete forward. Elite players like CR7, Benzema, Haaland, Zlatan, Lewandowski, and maybe even Mbappe (the 'maybe' is not to diminish his quality but because his qualities are more rounded, like Messi). And a notch below, players like Kane, Salah and Chiesa. For some reason, not many players seem to want to develop into this role. Maybe it's just too small of a pool and high of risk? Statistically, a player has a better chance of earning a spot in a team by playing wide roles or central midfield. It's just a theory, but maybe pragmatism even at the grassroots is the main cause of shortage of world class strikers/forwards.
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haaland to me isnt the modern day "perfect" no. 9.
hes actually way more old fashioned in the way he plays but his finishing is just so lethal that he makes up for his shortages. if his finishing was on par with say, lukaku, he would be literally no different to lukaku. haaland isnt good at dropping deep nor is he as good as benzema/lewandowski/zlatan/kane at involving himself in build up. hes a pure finisher
its probably one of the reasons why i wouldnt put my vote on haaland for ballon dor or why i would actually rate mbappe above him. there are a number of players who are far better rounded than haaland.
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The shortage of world class strikers is because it is the hardest position in the field. Almost every kid dreams to be a forward but hardly anyone makes it. You also do not really need a world class striker on a national team to win. Klose was good but never world-class on a club level.
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On June 20 2023 15:19 RvB wrote:
The shortage of world class strikers is because it is the hardest position in the field. Almost every kid dreams to be a forward but hardly anyone makes it. You also do not really need a world class striker on a national team to win. Klose was good but never world-class on a club level.
Klose definitely was world class in the national team though. He held up play, was a very good link-up and scored lots of goals. If Gomez had been Germany's striker in 2014 they wouldnt have won the world cup
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David Villa was also pivotal to Spain's success in the WC and Euros.
Lautaro Martinez is phenomenal for Inter past few seasons plus this season. His dip in form at the WC was rather unfortunate and anomalous. Surprising not many clubs are courting him. Way better than Lukaku. A great forward ala Suarez.
Of course, Haaland isn't at the level of CR7 or Mbappe. But he definitely has the talent in terms of technical attribute. It's just that coaches prefer to take advantage of his built and physicality by playing up him far upfront behind enemy lines. He's a level above Inzaghi and Shearer for sure. He's very much like Zlatan.
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On June 20 2023 15:21 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2023 15:19 RvB wrote:
The shortage of world class strikers is because it is the hardest position in the field. Almost every kid dreams to be a forward but hardly anyone makes it. You also do not really need a world class striker on a national team to win. Klose was good but never world-class on a club level. Klose definitely was world class in the national team though. He held up play, was a very good link-up and scored lots of goals. If Gomez had been Germany's striker in 2014 they wouldnt have won the world cup
yeah Klose always overperformed for the national team. Same with Podolski. Somehow they were always able to show their best for Germany.
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Norway28854 Posts
I think zlatan with speed and a tad less score impossible goals is a great description of haaland. His goal against dortmund this season could have been scored by exactly one other player, zlatan, and nobody else.
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Exactly, Haaland scores impossible goals out of half chances and nothing. That's the hallmark of a modern no 9.
Ironically, Pep couldn't get along with Zlatan but can somehow get Haaland to click into his tiki-taka setup. Maybe Haaland is still young and hasn't develop the ruthless selfishness that comes almost naturally from all elite no 9 like Zlatan and CR7. Or maybe Haaland has this special Zen-like patience and resilience (eg doesn't mind not touching the ball for long stretches and doesn't scream at teammates for a pass). Although he may not have scored or contributed directly much in the FA Cup and CL final, his sheer presence and threat in the final third opens up space for other players to score instead. He's the missing piece of the puzzle that Man City has been lacking all these past seasons since Aguero aged and left (but don't get me wrong, the other stars like Gundagon, Rodri, de Bruyne, Stones, Ederson, etc equally played a major role in the treble).
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Northern Ireland27200 Posts
Bit harsh on Shearer lad! Otherwise yeah agreed
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On June 19 2023 04:54 Mafe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2023 05:49 Hildegard wrote:
Germany hasn't had a real striker since Klose. Ever since he retired, Germany has had huge problems against teams that park the bus. Against teams like Spain, that go for possession, too, Germany is much stronger. Fwiw, Klose was in some way past his prime in 2014 and might not have played all that much had Gomez not missed out on the tournament due to injuries. Iirc before the tournament Gomez missing out was seen as a major dent to the hopes of the team. But that doesnt change anything about the current situation. And while obviously an out-and-out striker would be a major asset, I dont think that is (or at least has been in qatar) the only issue. Against japan in particular, but really in all 3 games at the world cup, if the whole team had converted their chances into goals at just a slightly below regular rate, this striker problem would be just a minor inconvenience instead of a footballing existential crisis.
While I agree that Klose was nowhere near the level of Messi, Ronaldo, Haaland or Mbappé, he scored 16 world cup goals in 24 matches (13 in 26 for Messi), which is the very definition of world class. National teams aren't on the same level as clubs for obvious reasons, but the world cup is the biggest stage, maybe in all of sports and culture combined.
My hope for Germany is that Moukoko will become our future number 9, but he needs more playtime.
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Norway28854 Posts
Klose is one of very, very few strikers who has more goals per game for NT than club teams over a large sample size. I'm sure they exist but I literally can't think of anybody else.
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On June 20 2023 23:56 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Klose is one of very, very few strikers who has more goals per game for NT than club teams over a large sample size. I'm sure they exist but I literally can't think of anybody else.
Podolski?
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Norway28854 Posts
Podolski is close, his average with koln beats nt handily but he was worse at bayern. However for bayern his average play time pee game was only about 50 minutes, so I think per minute he scored more there. If you look at the four clubs he played the most for then he had a better ratio for clubs than national team overall, but yeah, it's pretty close, so good suggestion.
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EPT
