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On December 13 2017 03:06 BlackJack wrote:
LeBron is easily already top 5 and arguably top 2. Changing teams in the offseason won't somehow demote him from that. People that still have Kobe ahead of LeBron are a dying breed. When LeBron's legacy is set in stone the only thing we will be asking ourselves is if he is the GOAT or the #2 greatest player of all time.
There seems to be misunderstanding with my LBJ as not top 5 comment. I made that statement with the condition "if LBJ form or joins another superteam next season", then his standing needs to be reevaluated. But if he sticks it out, and as it stands now, LBJ is sure top 2, very arguably top 2. If you include the oldies, KAJ has a serious case for top 2. If you limit to modern NBA (Jordan and beyond era), Kobe has a strong case for number 2 or 2.5 with him.
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Classic classy Pop:
I made an error in trying to change him too much. That might sound odd, but he’d been in the league nine years and there’s one way he plays on the offensive end and feels comfortable with.
- on LaMarcus Aldridge's struggles to start his career in San Antonio
Still, something wasn’t right; anyone could see that. Aldridge requested a summertime meeting with Popovich and came with demands. On the surface, that might seem a risky strategy, given the coach’s credentials vs. someone without a single title, and Aldridge knew he was walking on eggshells.
“I didn’t know how it would go because he’s Gregg Popovich. I didn’t know how he’d take me saying things. I didn’t know what to expect, with me coming at a person a different way but I was very honest and I think he could tell this was maybe different from what he was used to. But I was not disrespectful. I was trying to express how I was feeling and he was very receptive to it. We kept talking and things got better. I was pleasantly surprised.”
Popovich said: “We broke bread a few times, talked about it, laughed about it, discussed what we thought needed to happen, and frankly 95 percent of it fell on me because I made an error in trying to change him too much. That might sound odd, but he’d been in the league nine years and there’s one way he plays on the offensive end and feels comfortable with. I tried to turn him into Jack Sikma, told him I was going to teach you how to play on the elbow, go on the wing, face up. It was confusing for him. It really didn’t fit his style of play. I was guilty of over coaching in a sense.
“We came to an agreement on what had to happen. Well, on defense, I told him ‘I’m going to get on you like I do everyone else. But on offense, I don’t even want to talk to you. When they double you, kick it. Other than that, you be LaMarcus Aldridge.’ You see the result right now. He’s happy, confident and kicking everybody’s butt.”
tldr: GOAT Coach
http://www.nba.com/article/2017/12/08/kawhi-leonard-out-lamarcus-aldridge-all-star-form-san-antonio-spurs#/
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On December 13 2017 07:17 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2017 07:13 Twinkle Toes wrote:On December 13 2017 03:06 BlackJack wrote:
LeBron is easily already top 5 and arguably top 2. Changing teams in the offseason won't somehow demote him from that. People that still have Kobe ahead of LeBron are a dying breed. When LeBron's legacy is set in stone the only thing we will be asking ourselves is if he is the GOAT or the #2 greatest player of all time. There seems to be misunderstanding with my LBJ as not top 5 comment. I made that statement with the condition "if LBJ form or joins another superteam next season", then his standing needs to be reevaluated. But if he sticks it out, and as it stands now, LBJ is sure top 2, very arguably top 2. If you include the oldies, KAJ has a serious case for top 2. If you limit to modern NBA (Jordan and beyond era), Kobe has a strong case for number 2 or 2.5 with him. I don't agree that changing teams makes you less of player. Why does that matter? The same reason I don't think being good on social media or not matters.
Social media thing was nitpicking. But changing teams (translate: forming superteams by hand picking players according to his own demands with the goal of chasing rings) changes the entire landscape. It proves that he is nowehere in the level of MJ and Kobe who didnt need to artificially create a championship superteam but went through the "organic" process of team building - drafting, developing, acquiring another superstar during the trade deadline when needed, etc etc (compared to conspiring with fellow superstars or forcing management to bend to it. Note: I am also aware of the player vs. management polecon dimension of this, and I wrote about this somewhere in the Preseason thread). And when you look at his championship wins, it becomes clear that he wilts in pressure and relies on others to seal the deal. This does not mean he is not great. He is great. He gets 30-40 points in the finals. But he is not GOAT great.
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On December 13 2017 06:46 andrewlt wrote:
I've never been a big fan of OKC's management. They did the Philly thing before Philly did it.
OKC management is really intent on pushing their small market narrative. They made it clear that they "couldn't" afford three superstars in a small market like OKC, even though they willingly moved there and they paid Ibaka like a third superstar. Wouldn't surprised me if they made the trade to keep the narrative.
Lol. Their owners are notorious scumbags for that.
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On December 13 2017 07:13 Twinkle Toes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2017 03:06 BlackJack wrote:
LeBron is easily already top 5 and arguably top 2. Changing teams in the offseason won't somehow demote him from that. People that still have Kobe ahead of LeBron are a dying breed. When LeBron's legacy is set in stone the only thing we will be asking ourselves is if he is the GOAT or the #2 greatest player of all time. There seems to be misunderstanding with my LBJ as not top 5 comment. I made that statement with the condition "if LBJ form or joins another superteam next season", then his standing needs to be reevaluated. But if he sticks it out, and as it stands now, LBJ is sure top 2, very arguably top 2. If you include the oldies, KAJ has a serious case for top 2. If you limit to modern NBA (Jordan and beyond era), Kobe has a strong case for number 2 or 2.5 with him.
In my opinion you are putting wayyyyyyy too much emphasis on what players do off the basketball court when determining your top 5. We're talking about basketball greatness. Why do players personalities or their aptitude on social media matter so much in your rankings?
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On December 13 2017 08:09 JimmiC wrote:
There was nothing organic about how the lakers were built. They bought/traded for super stars. Do you really think if KOBE didn't think he could win in LA he would have stayed? He threatened to leave many times he just got his way.
Not only did MJ not play in a era where people changed teams, but he had super team around him already. Pippen was often called the second best player in the league so yeah he didn't leave for a super team, he was on the super team.
Lakers did what was status quo at the time, although they had more clout and money that they can arm-twist other teams to their desire more successfully.
Kobe-Shaq wasn't a superteam, they were a superduo. Which is very different from how Lebron deliberately recruited Wade and Bosh to form the Heatles, and later joined Kyrie and demanded Love. No other prime player did this, and this is where LBJ is different. MJ-Pip, Stockton-Malone, Kobe-Shaq, Hakeem-whoever he had at Houston then. And think about all the post Jordan teams, KG Wolves, AI sixers, TMac and yeah Carter, name them all here. So different. And please don't bring up Barkley, Pippen, Drexler Blazers, I don't want to have to discuss that. (The first real superteam was the Nets: Kidd, Kittles, Van Horn, Marion, Martin :D).
To simplify, did fans or players then think Jordan or any team in the 90s were superteams? I don't think so.
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On December 13 2017 08:10 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2017 07:37 Twinkle Toes wrote:On December 13 2017 07:17 JimmiC wrote:On December 13 2017 07:13 Twinkle Toes wrote:On December 13 2017 03:06 BlackJack wrote:
LeBron is easily already top 5 and arguably top 2. Changing teams in the offseason won't somehow demote him from that. People that still have Kobe ahead of LeBron are a dying breed. When LeBron's legacy is set in stone the only thing we will be asking ourselves is if he is the GOAT or the #2 greatest player of all time. There seems to be misunderstanding with my LBJ as not top 5 comment. I made that statement with the condition "if LBJ form or joins another superteam next season", then his standing needs to be reevaluated. But if he sticks it out, and as it stands now, LBJ is sure top 2, very arguably top 2. If you include the oldies, KAJ has a serious case for top 2. If you limit to modern NBA (Jordan and beyond era), Kobe has a strong case for number 2 or 2.5 with him. I don't agree that changing teams makes you less of player. Why does that matter? The same reason I don't think being good on social media or not matters. Social media thing was nitpicking. But changing teams (translate: forming superteams by hand picking players according to his own demands with the goal of chasing rings) changes the entire landscape. It proves that he is nowehere in the level of MJ and Kobe who didnt need to artificially create a championship superteam but went through the "organic" process of team building - drafting, developing, acquiring another superstar during the trade deadline when needed, etc etc (compared to conspiring with fellow superstars or forcing management to bend to it. Note: I am also aware of the player vs. management polecon dimension of this, and I wrote about this somewhere in the Preseason thread). And when you look at his championship wins, it becomes clear that he wilts in pressure and relies on others to seal the deal. This does not mean he is not great. He is great. He gets 30-40 points in the finals. But he is not GOAT great. I mean there is no right answer to GOAT, everyone can have their pick and we can all argue about why we rank how we do!
If we need objective ranking and stats and advanced analytics, we need JJ for that
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On December 13 2017 09:49 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2017 07:13 Twinkle Toes wrote:On December 13 2017 03:06 BlackJack wrote:
LeBron is easily already top 5 and arguably top 2. Changing teams in the offseason won't somehow demote him from that. People that still have Kobe ahead of LeBron are a dying breed. When LeBron's legacy is set in stone the only thing we will be asking ourselves is if he is the GOAT or the #2 greatest player of all time. There seems to be misunderstanding with my LBJ as not top 5 comment. I made that statement with the condition "if LBJ form or joins another superteam next season", then his standing needs to be reevaluated. But if he sticks it out, and as it stands now, LBJ is sure top 2, very arguably top 2. If you include the oldies, KAJ has a serious case for top 2. If you limit to modern NBA (Jordan and beyond era), Kobe has a strong case for number 2 or 2.5 with him. In my opinion you are putting wayyyyyyy too much emphasis on what players do off the basketball court when determining your top 5. We're talking about basketball greatness. Why do players personalities or their aptitude on social media matter so much in your rankings?
Disregard the social media stuff I wrote (they were personal digs at LBJ's incompatible on court dominance), and the rest still holds. LBJ wilted when it mattered most, competed in a totally weak Eastern conference which explains his finals streak, but when faced with equal competition, other he needs (at least 2) other superstars to seal the deal. His changing team once again next season put this into perspective.
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Pippen, Longley(?), Kerr(?), Kukoc(?), Rodman(?), Harper(?) were superstars because of Jordan.
Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love were legit superstars without Lebron.
Malone, Payton LA falls in the same category as Barkley, Pippen Blazers, superstars past their prime, so another conversation.
Russell and KAJ I didn't witness personally and couldn't make a really informed opinion on what was the consensus at the time, so no comment.
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On December 13 2017 11:35 Twinkle Toes wrote:
Pippen, Longley(?), Kerr(?), Kukoc(?), Rodman(?), Harper(?) were superstars because of Jordan.
Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love were legit superstars without Lebron.
Malone, Payton LA falls in the same category as Barkley, Pippen Blazers, superstars past their prime, so another conversation.
Russell and KAJ I didn't witness personally and couldn't make a really informed opinion on what was the consensus at the time, so no comment.
The year Jordan was playing baseball Scottie Pippen finished 3rd in MVP voting, 4th in DPOY voting, won the all-star game MVP, and led the Bulls to the 3rd best record in the East and a nice playoff run. Does Jordan get credit for that too?
Rodman was a great defender and averaged 18+ rebounds a game his last 2 years in Detroit, what exactly did Jordan do for him that made him a superstar?
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JimmiC and BlackJack, yes we agree on Pippen, as you see I did not put a (?) on his name. Rodman is tricky though because I read somewhere a long time ago that he and his stats benefitted greatly from the Bulls triangle, and his post Bulls career at LA and Mavs was a disaster to the team as he was intent on nothing but stat chasing and padding his rebound numbers, destroying the defensive scheme of the teams. If you insist on it, I will try to look for the source, but I think it was an internet article too, early 2000s (ancient by internet age), or a magazine article or book. I can't remember, but I'll try.
On the others, Longley etc., I think there is no disagreement, right?
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best part about Rodman was he was in the nWo
some really entertaining games tonight... both overtime games were great fun to watch.
Atlantic Division keeps on rolling... it was 3-0 tonight 
Simmons cut back through 3 timberwolves tonight and went in untouched for the game tying slam dunk...
Teague, Wiggins and Towns were all staring at each other... as Simmons waltzed through the key.
they should shave Wiggins head and call him Curly. Teague can be Moe, and Towns can be Larry.
Philly really misses Covington.
it was great to see what Kyle Anderson could do given full time minutes, but i guess that is now over.
Why is LMA having a much better year offensively? welp,
Greg Popovich acknowledged he made a mistake with LMA and was guilty of "over coaching" him last year.
http://www.nba.com/article/2017/12/08/kawhi-leonard-out-lamarcus-aldridge-all-star-form-san-antonio-spurs#/
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On December 13 2017 13:19 Twinkle Toes wrote:
JimmiC and BlackJack, yes we agree on Pippen, as you see I did not put a (?) on his name. Rodman is tricky though because I read somewhere a long time ago that he and his stats benefitted greatly from the Bulls triangle, and his post Bulls career at LA and Mavs was a disaster to the team as he was intent on nothing but stat chasing and padding his rebound numbers, destroying the defensive scheme of the teams. If you insist on it, I will try to look for the source, but I think it was an internet article too, early 2000s (ancient by internet age), or a magazine article or book. I can't remember, but I'll try.
On the others, Longley etc., I think there is no disagreement, right?
Yeah, of course. Longley, Harper, Kerr, etc. were never superstars. Not even all-stars. The point is, as Shaq would say, you need a 1-2 punch to win championships. Shaq had Kobe, Duncan had Robinson and then Manu/Parker, Kobe had Gasol/Bynum, and LeBron had Wade/Bosh and Love/Kyrie.
Let's look at what Jordan had:
Phil Jackson - arguably the best head coach of all time and certainly of that era
Scottie Pippen - legit superstar, one of the best defenders and consistently finished in top 5 for DPOY
Dennis Rodman - won the rebounding title every year of the 2nd 3-peat, also top 5 in DPOY
Toni Kukoc - '96 6th man of the year; one of the best back-up players in the league
Steve Kerr - most accurate 3 point shooter of all time
Pretty great supporting cast if you ask me. Of course Kobe/Jordan didn't need to leave and artificially create a great team. They were already on great teams. So your argument for Kobe/Jordan is that they were able to win championships in Chicago/LA with other HOFers and LeBron couldn't do the same in Cleveland playing with literally nobody?
You can't knock LeBron for not winning a ring without a great team around him when Jordan and Kobe never did either.
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EPT
