LeBron has free tickets to the finals every year, why would he want to go to the Western Conference. I think he stays in Cleveland honestly. Kevin Love is going to hit his prime next season.
If LBJ decides to form or join another superteam (like Houston or Sixers), I think his championships, and even career, will forever be tainted and he is disqualified from any goat or even top 5 conversation. He will be akin to a less obvious egotistic stat-padding Westbrook who is super athletic who can get his numbers at will. But unlike Westbrook, he and his PR have done a good job in managing his image.
On December 11 2017 23:07 JimmiC wrote: Imagine how hood okc would have been if they traded westbrook and not harden. They would have got way more for westbrook. Tgen durrant and harden woukd have meshed so well.
What was the justification why they let go of Harden instead of Westbrook? Is it because they thought Westbrook was better?
Yeah it was before big threes were common and harden was more unknown as the third option on okc. So they thought they couldnt afford all 3/were not sure if harden was looking good because of the otherb2 more established super stars or himself.
Tbh i dont think externally there was even much discussion about which 2 they should keep just that they didnt thonk thwy could afford harden so best get something for him.
OKCs front office was dumb. It's as simple as that.
On December 11 2017 23:07 JimmiC wrote: Imagine how hood okc would have been if they traded westbrook and not harden. They would have got way more for westbrook. Tgen durrant and harden woukd have meshed so well.
What was the justification why they let go of Harden instead of Westbrook? Is it because they thought Westbrook was better?
Yeah it was before big threes were common and harden was more unknown as the third option on okc. So they thought they couldnt afford all 3/were not sure if harden was looking good because of the otherb2 more established super stars or himself.
Tbh i dont think externally there was even much discussion about which 2 they should keep just that they didnt thonk thwy could afford harden so best get something for him.
OKCs front office was dumb. It's as simple as that.
And IIRC when all the financial aspect of it were settled, the total cap savings from dumping Harden was merely 1 million.
Although I doubt Westbrook Durant Harden would have worked, Westbrook would have killed both of their games. Durant and Harden though, yummy!
On December 11 2017 23:07 JimmiC wrote: Imagine how hood okc would have been if they traded westbrook and not harden. They would have got way more for westbrook. Tgen durrant and harden woukd have meshed so well.
What was the justification why they let go of Harden instead of Westbrook? Is it because they thought Westbrook was better?
Yeah it was before big threes were common and harden was more unknown as the third option on okc. So they thought they couldnt afford all 3/were not sure if harden was looking good because of the otherb2 more established super stars or himself.
Tbh i dont think externally there was even much discussion about which 2 they should keep just that they didnt thonk thwy could afford harden so best get something for him.
OKCs front office was dumb. It's as simple as that.
And IIRC when all the financial aspect of it were settled, the total cap savings from dumping Harden was merely 1 million.
Although I doubt Westbrook Durant Harden would have worked, Westbrook would have killed both of their games. Durant and Harden though, yummy!
Its not that hard really. Each of them only needs to play 30 MPG in the regular season, and you play those 3 + a big + a 3 pt shooter in playoff crunch time with Harden running the point (generally) and running KD/Harden + Russ screens and exploiting any switch that ends up happening. Or, you know, just feed Durant.
The biggest problem with losing Harden is they also lost leverage over Westbrook, who you could have benched for Harden at any time if he didn't play within the offense.
On December 12 2017 12:11 Twinkle Toes wrote: If LBJ decides to form or join another superteam (like Houston or Sixers), I think his championships, and even career, will forever be tainted and he is disqualified from any goat or even top 5 conversation. He will be akin to a less obvious egotistic stat-padding Westbrook who is super athletic who can get his numbers at will. But unlike Westbrook, he and his PR have done a good job in managing his image.
there was a pretty long post on reddit regarding the harden trade and it was due to a lot of different circumstances that added to why they didn't keep harden i'm a huge rockets fan so i'm not really complaining, but it didn't seem it was as simple as the ownership being too cheap, it was certainly more than $1m, it was multiple repeater taxes and so on.
also, there is no way lebron's legacy gets tainted to join another superteam, he is easily top 5 already and nothing is changing that.
It's funny how many people not from Cleveland/Ohio decide to focus almost solely on his team jumps as though they supersede actual stats and performance.
On December 12 2017 12:11 Twinkle Toes wrote: If LBJ decides to form or join another superteam (like Houston or Sixers), I think his championships, and even career, will forever be tainted and he is disqualified from any goat or even top 5 conversation. He will be akin to a less obvious egotistic stat-padding Westbrook who is super athletic who can get his numbers at will. But unlike Westbrook, he and his PR have done a good job in managing his image.
In what world is Lebron not top 5?
In a world where he is in another superteam next year. And I say this as a once die hard LBJ fan, but now only a moderate LBJ fan. If he does this, it's clear that:
he is at beast a freak athlete 6'8, 240 lbs, who can run and finish strong;
he has learned or maximize these natural ability to be a statistical front runner in many categories;
he has managed his image well enough (except for "The Decision");
but he cannot be the center-piece of a championship win formed out of a team of handpicked superstars. Consider, 2012 was Wade's hero run. In 2013, his reputation as a choker was erased by Allen's 3 and some mini-controversy over the review and inbound play sequence (see: Kerr and Nunn). In 2016, he was literally rolling over ready to die when a) Green made the biggest mistake of his basketball career b) Curry was playing like a rookie with all the forced bricks and crucial turn overs at the end of Games 6 and 7 (behind the back pass at the most tense and crucial moment seriously) c) Kyrie playing like a god
he has the nasty habit of wilting under pressure;
and jumping ship when things don't favor him and destroying the team in the process (as he did to Heat and he is bound to do to the Cavs next year)
EDIT: Flopper, but thank god he has stopped doing that. 6'8 240 pounds flopping was really disgraceful
EDIT: Whiner on non-calls.
he has a cringey social media/interview personality (#striveforgreatness);
(this one I realized very recently when me and my friends were watching Agent Zero talk about his offense and discussed it afterwards in detail. There are two parts to this) [part 1]: He is not a deadly/clutch player. I would be more afraid if Manu, Kawhi, Lillard, Kyrie, or even Bradley. Note that these are not lights out shooters, but players who seem to relish and perform better when under pressure.
[part 2]: he is a very limited offensive player skillwise. Yes he can score 30-40 at will, but they come mostly from him steamrolling his way to the rim (more on this point later). He has not developed a solid low post game, nor a killer shooting game. When you compare him to other superstars like Kobe, KD, Kyrie, Curry, Harden, Kawhi, he looks like a one trick pony. And one more thing that me and my friends realized, ask yourselves, when you are playing basketball, do you ever do any Lebron moves? MJ has his fade away, Kobe has everything MJ has plus his self-oop and shimmy, Kidd has his ridiculous court vision passes, Kyrie has his handles, Iverson had the crossover, Harden has the lazy looking but deadly stepback and "stepside"shots of all varieties, and recently, KD has the fuck you three. So unless you do alleyoop dunks and chase down blocks, there is no Lebron move to speak of.
but having said all this, Lebron seems like a genuinely good guy, self-conscious but good
he knows his strengths, and he seems committed to achieving his goals
he does good work for the community
he is improving his offense, and I think he is having the best season of his career
Top 5 would be:
MJ 6-0. Perfect NBA career. Had a Westbrookish early career, overcame bullheadedness and became legit. Overcame nemesis, and embraced the competition against contemporary superstars, and made them look silly. Also, nice timing pre social media era so his assholeness never went publicly wild.
KAJ Best basketball career from HS, college, to NBA. Longevity. 6x MVP, a record 19-time All-Star. 6 NBA titles. Mostly dismissed because of snubbish and gritty personality.
Bill Russell 11 NBA titles in 13 seasons. Overall nice guy. But league was different back then.
Kobe 5 titles. Consummate professional and "cold blooded killer". Offensive genius. Rose as the lone superstar in an era of superstars - McGrady, Carter, Iverson. Was competitive until the very last day of his career (before achilles, and farewell year didn't count). Went from universally hated asshole to most beloved basketball ambassador. But, rape accusations, ballhog, and Shaq feud (which history is favoring Kobe more and more)
Tim Duncan 5 championships. Consummate professional, team leader, role model. No negatives.
Somewhere in the 6+: Wilt, Robertson, West, Lebron, Shaq. Magic, Bird
On December 12 2017 12:11 Twinkle Toes wrote: If LBJ decides to form or join another superteam (like Houston or Sixers), I think his championships, and even career, will forever be tainted and he is disqualified from any goat or even top 5 conversation. He will be akin to a less obvious egotistic stat-padding Westbrook who is super athletic who can get his numbers at will. But unlike Westbrook, he and his PR have done a good job in managing his image.
In what world is Lebron not top 5?
In a world where he is in another superteam next year. And I say this as a once die hard LBJ fan, but now only a moderate LBJ fan. If he does this, it's clear that:
he is at beast a freak athlete 6'8, 240 lbs, who can run and finish strong;
he has learned or maximize these natural ability to be a statistical front runner in many categories;
he has managed his image well enough (except for "The Decision");
but he cannot be the center-piece of a championship win formed out of a team of handpicked superstars. Consider, 2012 was Wade's hero run. In 2013, his reputation as a choker was erased by Allen's 3 and some mini-controversy over the review and inbound play sequence (see: Kerr and Nunn). In 2016, he was literally rolling over ready to die when a) Green made the biggest mistake of his basketball career b) Curry was playing like a rookie with all the forced bricks and crucial turn overs at the end of Games 6 and 7 (behind the back pass at the most tense and crucial moment seriously) c) Kyrie playing like a god
he has the nasty habit of wilting under pressure;
and jumping ship when things don't favor him and destroying the team in the process (as he did to Heat and he is bound to do to the Cavs next year)
he has a cringey social media/interview personality (#striveforgreatness);
(this one I realized very recently when me and my friends were watching Agent Zero talk about his offense and discussed it afterwards in detail. There are two parts to this) [part 1]: He is not a deadly/clutch player. I would be more afraid if Manu, Kawhi, Lillard, Kyrie, or even Bradley. Note that these are not lights out shooters, but players who seem to relish and perform better when under pressure.
[part 2]: he is a very limited offensive player skillwise. Yes he can score 30-40 at will, but they come mostly from him steamrolling his way to the rim (more on this point later). He has not developed a solid low post game, nor a killer shooting game. When you compare him to other superstars like Kobe, KD, Kyrie, Curry, Harden, Kawhi, he looks like a one trick pony. And one more thing that me and my friends realized, ask yourselves, when you are playing basketball, do you ever do any Lebron moves? MJ has his fade away, Kobe has everything MJ has plus his self-oop and shimmy, Kidd has his ridiculous court vision passes, Kyrie has his handles, Iverson had the crossover, Harden has the lazy looking but deadly stepback and "stepside"shots of all varieties, and recently, KD has the fuck you three. So unless you do alleyoop dunks and chase down blocks, there is no Lebron move to speak of.
but having said all this, Lebron seems like a genuinely good guy, self-conscious but good
he knows his strengths, and he seems committed to achieving his goals
he does good work for the community
he is improving his offense, and I think he is having the best season of his career
Top 5 would be:
MJ 6-0. Perfect NBA career. Had a Westbrookish early career, overcame bullheadedness and became legit. Overcame nemesis, and embraced the competition against contemporary superstars, and made them look silly. Also, nice timing pre social media era so his assholeness never went publicly wild.
KAJ Best basketball career from HS, college, to NBA. Longevity. 6x MVP, a record 19-time All-Star. 6 NBA titles. Mostly dismissed because of snubbish and gritty personality.
Bill Russell 11 NBA titles in 13 seasons. Overall nice guy. But league was different back then.
Kobe 5 titles. Consummate professional and "cold blooded killer". Offensive genius. Rose as the lone superstar in an era of superstars - McGrady, Carter, Iverson. Was competitive until the very last day of his career (before achilles, and farewell year didn't count). Went from universally hated asshole to most beloved basketball ambassador. But, rape accusations, ballhog, and Shaq feud (which history is favoring Kobe more and more)
Tim Duncan 5 championships. Consummate professional, team leader, role model. No negatives.
Somewhere in the 6+: Wilt, Robertson, West, Lebron, Shaq. Magic, Bird
Fight me! :D
'
1 yes that is a plus not a negative, if you don't think that MJ KAJ Russel Duncan (and to a lesser degree KOBE) were all physical freaks for their era you are smokin the good stuff.
2. Again not a down side, Jordan for example never said anything remotely political or about social justice so he could maximize his earning and shoe sales.
3.4. He did win championships. Part of Lebrons greatness IMO is he is willing to let other superstars and players play. It is exactly what you are complaining westbrook doesn't do. I remember when young lbj on cle got eliminated because he set up Donell marshall for a wide open corner three and people were like he shouldn't do that he's the super star he should take a worse shot himself. WTF? I love a guy who makes the right play. Clutch passes matter too, And lets not forget he was often not with superstars and still going deep and to the finals. PG bubby gibson any one?
5. Kobe complained like hell wanting to leave to get his way, and that was the lakers. KAJ didn't stay his whole career with the bucks. Jordan retired to play baseball and left his team high and dry, Its all perspective.
6.Kobe when social media just started insulted shaq on video, who knows that else he would have done if it was around when he was younger, same with all the other dudes. (except timmy D we all know he would have had the most vanilla account ever.)
7. he's like the least limited player on your list. Thats like saying all kareem did was sky hook and dunk. I mean russel could only post up. Come on man He's probably the most efficient wing in the history of bball. He's pretty damn good offensively, and way better passer then Joke Jordan Kareem Russell
Top 5's are near impossible because of era comparisons, If you have him 6th instead of 4th oh well. But Kobe wouldn't be in my top 5. And Russel I would have to do way more research I mean yeah he had tons of titles but he played on a the all star super team of all star super teams, when BBall was totally different.
To give context, numbers 1 to 9 are things that Lebron "will just be" if he once again forms or joins another team next season. Numbers 1-3 in particular are plus points for Lebron, so there is no need to point that out. Now on specific points
Kobe complained like hell wanting to leave to get his way, and that was the lakers. KAJ didn't stay his whole career with the bucks. Jordan retired to play baseball and left his team high and dry, Its all perspective.
Kobe wanted the Lakers management to discipline Shaq or to choose between Shaq and him. As I said, history is looking more kindly to Kobe now than Shaq, after Shaq's petulant petty immaturity is becoming obvious. Plus, Kobe never said anything during the entire ordeal, it was Shaq who did all the talking. I won't comment on KAJ and MJ being on other teams and sports because I don't see how that has anything to do with our discussion. Correct me if there is actually a point of discussion here.
6.Kobe when social media just started insulted shaq on video, who knows that else he would have done if it was around when he was younger, same with all the other dudes. (except timmy D we all know he would have had the most vanilla account ever.)
You will agree with me that it is unfair to compare Kobe's social media presence to Lebron. I was trying to be fair and made sure to include their negatives as well. We can discuss Kobe's social media presence (or whatever the equivalent of it is in the late 90s) to his contemporaries, like AI, TMac, etc. LBJ should be compared to his contemporaries as well in this case. I can't name any other NBA star or superstar who does occasional cringey stuff like he does on social media. Again, correct me if I'm wrong.
7. he's like the least limited player on your list. Thats like saying all kareem did was sky hook and dunk. I mean russel could only post up. Come on man He's probably the most efficient wing in the history of bball. He's pretty damn good offensively, and way better passer then Joke Jordan Kareem Russell
Again, I think in this case comparison with contemporaries is important, or else, we might as well compare Jerry West's dribling skills to Kyrie's. I am not talking about effeciency. I am talking about offensive talent/skills. Durant/Kobe/MJ/Harden can shoot and score anywhere in whatever fashion. Lebron cannot. But the things he does, he does well, no question about that. And by the way, who is "Joke"? Kobe? hehe
3.4. He did win championships. Part of Lebrons greatness IMO is he is willing to let other superstars and players play. It is exactly what you are complaining westbrook doesn't do. I remember when young lbj on cle got eliminated because he set up Donell marshall for a wide open corner three and people were like he shouldn't do that he's the super star he should take a worse shot himself. WTF? I love a guy who makes the right play. Clutch passes matter too, And lets not forget he was often not with superstars and still going deep and to the finals. PG bubby gibson any one?
We disagree on the clutch and superstar responsibility then. Also, you may remember there was a detailed post in the Preseason thread about Kobe being being a better passer and finisher (clutch) than LBJ. And analysis on how LBJ makes crucial error of choosing to pass to teammates in finals seconds when he is literally 5 feet away from the rim already. And LBJ's forms his team to maximize his drive and kick game. Let's not pretend that he is a great passer in the traditional sense of great passers like Sotckton, Kidd, and Nash. If you put a team with Jordan and Stojakovic, Muller, Horry, and all the great shooters, he would also be a great passer, which he already ease, despite the triangle system generating balanced assist opportunities for all players on the floor.
Top 5's are near impossible because of era comparisons, If you have him 6th instead of 4th oh well. But Kobe wouldn't be in my top 5. And Russel I would have to do way more research I mean yeah he had tons of titles but he played on a the all star super team of all star super teams, when BBall was totally different.
On December 11 2017 23:07 JimmiC wrote: Imagine how hood okc would have been if they traded westbrook and not harden. They would have got way more for westbrook. Tgen durrant and harden woukd have meshed so well.
What was the justification why they let go of Harden instead of Westbrook? Is it because they thought Westbrook was better?
Yeah it was before big threes were common and harden was more unknown as the third option on okc. So they thought they couldnt afford all 3/were not sure if harden was looking good because of the otherb2 more established super stars or himself.
Tbh i dont think externally there was even much discussion about which 2 they should keep just that they didnt thonk thwy could afford harden so best get something for him.
OKCs front office was dumb. It's as simple as that.
I'm pretty sure the trade was after the Miami-OKC Finals where Harden was just horrible. Easy to laugh at it in hindsight, but they also wanted to keep Ibaka at the time.
On December 11 2017 23:07 JimmiC wrote: Imagine how hood okc would have been if they traded westbrook and not harden. They would have got way more for westbrook. Tgen durrant and harden woukd have meshed so well.
What was the justification why they let go of Harden instead of Westbrook? Is it because they thought Westbrook was better?
Yeah it was before big threes were common and harden was more unknown as the third option on okc. So they thought they couldnt afford all 3/were not sure if harden was looking good because of the otherb2 more established super stars or himself.
Tbh i dont think externally there was even much discussion about which 2 they should keep just that they didnt thonk thwy could afford harden so best get something for him.
OKCs front office was dumb. It's as simple as that.
And IIRC when all the financial aspect of it were settled, the total cap savings from dumping Harden was merely 1 million.
Although I doubt Westbrook Durant Harden would have worked, Westbrook would have killed both of their games. Durant and Harden though, yummy!
They went to the Finals with all 3 still years away from their primes. Every Harden pairing had a positive plus minus. OKC management was just that dumb.
On December 12 2017 12:11 Twinkle Toes wrote: If LBJ decides to form or join another superteam (like Houston or Sixers), I think his championships, and even career, will forever be tainted and he is disqualified from any goat or even top 5 conversation. He will be akin to a less obvious egotistic stat-padding Westbrook who is super athletic who can get his numbers at will. But unlike Westbrook, he and his PR have done a good job in managing his image.
In what world is Lebron not top 5?
In a world where he is in another superteam next year. And I say this as a once die hard LBJ fan, but now only a moderate LBJ fan. If he does this, it's clear that:
he is at beast a freak athlete 6'8, 240 lbs, who can run and finish strong;
he has learned or maximize these natural ability to be a statistical front runner in many categories;
he has managed his image well enough (except for "The Decision");
but he cannot be the center-piece of a championship win formed out of a team of handpicked superstars. Consider, 2012 was Wade's hero run. In 2013, his reputation as a choker was erased by Allen's 3 and some mini-controversy over the review and inbound play sequence (see: Kerr and Nunn). In 2016, he was literally rolling over ready to die when a) Green made the biggest mistake of his basketball career b) Curry was playing like a rookie with all the forced bricks and crucial turn overs at the end of Games 6 and 7 (behind the back pass at the most tense and crucial moment seriously) c) Kyrie playing like a god
he has the nasty habit of wilting under pressure;
and jumping ship when things don't favor him and destroying the team in the process (as he did to Heat and he is bound to do to the Cavs next year)
he has a cringey social media/interview personality (#striveforgreatness);
(this one I realized very recently when me and my friends were watching Agent Zero talk about his offense and discussed it afterwards in detail. There are two parts to this) [part 1]: He is not a deadly/clutch player. I would be more afraid if Manu, Kawhi, Lillard, Kyrie, or even Bradley. Note that these are not lights out shooters, but players who seem to relish and perform better when under pressure.
[part 2]: he is a very limited offensive player skillwise. Yes he can score 30-40 at will, but they come mostly from him steamrolling his way to the rim (more on this point later). He has not developed a solid low post game, nor a killer shooting game. When you compare him to other superstars like Kobe, KD, Kyrie, Curry, Harden, Kawhi, he looks like a one trick pony. And one more thing that me and my friends realized, ask yourselves, when you are playing basketball, do you ever do any Lebron moves? MJ has his fade away, Kobe has everything MJ has plus his self-oop and shimmy, Kidd has his ridiculous court vision passes, Kyrie has his handles, Iverson had the crossover, Harden has the lazy looking but deadly stepback and "stepside"shots of all varieties, and recently, KD has the fuck you three. So unless you do alleyoop dunks and chase down blocks, there is no Lebron move to speak of.
but having said all this, Lebron seems like a genuinely good guy, self-conscious but good
he knows his strengths, and he seems committed to achieving his goals
he does good work for the community
he is improving his offense, and I think he is having the best season of his career
Top 5 would be:
MJ 6-0. Perfect NBA career. Had a Westbrookish early career, overcame bullheadedness and became legit. Overcame nemesis, and embraced the competition against contemporary superstars, and made them look silly. Also, nice timing pre social media era so his assholeness never went publicly wild.
KAJ Best basketball career from HS, college, to NBA. Longevity. 6x MVP, a record 19-time All-Star. 6 NBA titles. Mostly dismissed because of snubbish and gritty personality.
Bill Russell 11 NBA titles in 13 seasons. Overall nice guy. But league was different back then.
Kobe 5 titles. Consummate professional and "cold blooded killer". Offensive genius. Rose as the lone superstar in an era of superstars - McGrady, Carter, Iverson. Was competitive until the very last day of his career (before achilles, and farewell year didn't count). Went from universally hated asshole to most beloved basketball ambassador. But, rape accusations, ballhog, and Shaq feud (which history is favoring Kobe more and more)
Tim Duncan 5 championships. Consummate professional, team leader, role model. No negatives.
Somewhere in the 6+: Wilt, Robertson, West, Lebron, Shaq. Magic, Bird
Fight me! :D
'
1 yes that is a plus not a negative, if you don't think that MJ KAJ Russel Duncan (and to a lesser degree KOBE) were all physical freaks for their era you are smokin the good stuff.
2. Again not a down side, Jordan for example never said anything remotely political or about social justice so he could maximize his earning and shoe sales.
3.4. He did win championships. Part of Lebrons greatness IMO is he is willing to let other superstars and players play. It is exactly what you are complaining westbrook doesn't do. I remember when young lbj on cle got eliminated because he set up Donell marshall for a wide open corner three and people were like he shouldn't do that he's the super star he should take a worse shot himself. WTF? I love a guy who makes the right play. Clutch passes matter too, And lets not forget he was often not with superstars and still going deep and to the finals. PG bubby gibson any one?
5. Kobe complained like hell wanting to leave to get his way, and that was the lakers. KAJ didn't stay his whole career with the bucks. Jordan retired to play baseball and left his team high and dry, Its all perspective.
6.Kobe when social media just started insulted shaq on video, who knows that else he would have done if it was around when he was younger, same with all the other dudes. (except timmy D we all know he would have had the most vanilla account ever.)
7. he's like the least limited player on your list. Thats like saying all kareem did was sky hook and dunk. I mean russel could only post up. Come on man He's probably the most efficient wing in the history of bball. He's pretty damn good offensively, and way better passer then Joke Jordan Kareem Russell
Top 5's are near impossible because of era comparisons, If you have him 6th instead of 4th oh well. But Kobe wouldn't be in my top 5. And Russel I would have to do way more research I mean yeah he had tons of titles but he played on a the all star super team of all star super teams, when BBall was totally different.
To give context, numbers 1 to 9 are things that Lebron "will just be" if he once again forms or joins another team next season. Numbers 1-3 in particular are plus points for Lebron, so there is no need to point that out. Now on specific points
Kobe complained like hell wanting to leave to get his way, and that was the lakers. KAJ didn't stay his whole career with the bucks. Jordan retired to play baseball and left his team high and dry, Its all perspective.
Kobe wanted the Lakers management to discipline Shaq or to choose between Shaq and him. As I said, history is looking more kindly to Kobe now than Shaq, after Shaq's petulant petty immaturity is becoming obvious. Plus, Kobe never said anything during the entire ordeal, it was Shaq who did all the talking. I won't comment on KAJ and MJ being on other teams and sports because I don't see how that has anything to do with our discussion. Correct me if there is actually a point of discussion here.
6.Kobe when social media just started insulted shaq on video, who knows that else he would have done if it was around when he was younger, same with all the other dudes. (except timmy D we all know he would have had the most vanilla account ever.)
You will agree with me that it is unfair to compare Kobe's social media presence to Lebron. I was trying to be fair and made sure to include their negatives as well. We can discuss Kobe's social media presence (or whatever the equivalent of it is in the late 90s) to his contemporaries, like AI, TMac, etc. LBJ should be compared to his contemporaries as well in this case. I can't name any other NBA star or superstar who does occasional cringey stuff like he does on social media. Again, correct me if I'm wrong.
7. he's like the least limited player on your list. Thats like saying all kareem did was sky hook and dunk. I mean russel could only post up. Come on man He's probably the most efficient wing in the history of bball. He's pretty damn good offensively, and way better passer then Joke Jordan Kareem Russell
Again, I think in this case comparison with contemporaries is important, or else, we might as well compare Jerry West's dribling skills to Kyrie's. I am not talking about effeciency. I am talking about offensive talent/skills. Durant/Kobe/MJ/Harden can shoot and score anywhere in whatever fashion. Lebron cannot. But the things he does, he does well, no question about that. And by the way, who is "Joke"? Kobe? hehe
3.4. He did win championships. Part of Lebrons greatness IMO is he is willing to let other superstars and players play. It is exactly what you are complaining westbrook doesn't do. I remember when young lbj on cle got eliminated because he set up Donell marshall for a wide open corner three and people were like he shouldn't do that he's the super star he should take a worse shot himself. WTF? I love a guy who makes the right play. Clutch passes matter too, And lets not forget he was often not with superstars and still going deep and to the finals. PG bubby gibson any one?
We disagree on the clutch and superstar responsibility then. Also, you may remember there was a detailed post in the Preseason thread about Kobe being being a better passer and finisher (clutch) than LBJ. And analysis on how LBJ makes crucial error of choosing to pass to teammates in finals seconds when he is literally 5 feet away from the rim already. And LBJ's forms his team to maximize his drive and kick game. Let's not pretend that he is a great passer in the traditional sense of great passers like Sotckton, Kidd, and Nash. If you put a team with Jordan and Stojakovic, Muller, Horry, and all the great shooters, he would also be a great passer, which he already ease, despite the triangle system generating balanced assist opportunities for all players on the floor.
Top 5's are near impossible because of era comparisons, If you have him 6th instead of 4th oh well. But Kobe wouldn't be in my top 5. And Russel I would have to do way more research I mean yeah he had tons of titles but he played on a the all star super team of all star super teams, when BBall was totally different.
Who's your top 5 and why?
So that guy that made that detailed post in the preseason thread about Kobe being a better passer and finisher than LeBron in the clutch was basically full of shit. If you read my replies to him on the next couple pages of that thread you will see that I gathered my own statistics and found that his were bullshit. When I called him out on it he basically said he gathered his statistics from watching old games on youtube and checking game longs and nba.com and recording what players did in the last couple minutes. Basically his data was incomplete and worthless. The actual numbers show that Kobe bricked more game winners than anyone and we only remember him for the ones he made.
LeBron is easily already top 5 and arguably top 2. Changing teams in the offseason won't somehow demote him from that. People that still have Kobe ahead of LeBron are a dying breed. When LeBron's legacy is set in stone the only thing we will be asking ourselves is if he is the GOAT or the #2 greatest player of all time.
On December 11 2017 23:07 JimmiC wrote: Imagine how hood okc would have been if they traded westbrook and not harden. They would have got way more for westbrook. Tgen durrant and harden woukd have meshed so well.
What was the justification why they let go of Harden instead of Westbrook? Is it because they thought Westbrook was better?
Yeah it was before big threes were common and harden was more unknown as the third option on okc. So they thought they couldnt afford all 3/were not sure if harden was looking good because of the otherb2 more established super stars or himself.
Tbh i dont think externally there was even much discussion about which 2 they should keep just that they didnt thonk thwy could afford harden so best get something for him.
OKCs front office was dumb. It's as simple as that.
I'm pretty sure the trade was after the Miami-OKC Finals where Harden was just horrible. Easy to laugh at it in hindsight, but they also wanted to keep Ibaka at the time.
OKC management couldn't be thinking like that. They made it to the Finals off of Harden going supernova and erasing the Spurs. That and his season long offensive dominance should have overshadowed his Finals performance.
You may not remember but when the trade happened I broke down on this very forum why the trade was bad and how Harden was one of the most historically gifted scorers in league history.
And I'm sure OKC has better analytics at their disposal than some random guy on the internet using publicly available information. They fucked up. Big time. You never let below market stars leave.
I've never been a big fan of OKC's management. They did the Philly thing before Philly did it.
OKC management is really intent on pushing their small market narrative. They made it clear that they "couldn't" afford three superstars in a small market like OKC, even though they willingly moved there and they paid Ibaka like a third superstar. Wouldn't surprised me if they made the trade to keep the narrative.
EPT![[image loading]](https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/D2fujtun26tDRV5sPCsxJseWeHY=/0x0:3000x2000/920x613/filters:focal(1300x550:1780x1030)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/57933119/lebron_rockets_getty_ringer.0.jpg)
