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Just to start a discussion that maybe was here at some point but since I am still a beginner... why is there no advantage rule in basketball? I understand that intentional fouls are about posession late in the game but often even the team with a small lead can do it to gain posession and hope for potential 1pt free throw instead of 2 point plays.
Pretty sure everyone has seen situations like it. Is that a big topic in the community? No topic at all? Whats your opinion? I dont mind it either way I just found it a bit strange
Like in football. If the play is advantageous towards the attacker its being played out. I.e passing across court to a free player of you that can simply dunk and score 2. The foul on the other site prevents that and only grants chance for 2 with freethrows
On September 02 2017 22:00 Twinkle Toes wrote: You mean offside?
No. If an foul occurs away from the ball the game will continue in soccer when there is still the advantage with the attacker. There could be a potential goal. In basketball even though the player might only need to lay the ball in, it gets called off and you get potential possession / freethrows which basically punishes the offence.
On September 02 2017 22:00 Twinkle Toes wrote: You mean offside?
No. If an foul occurs away from the ball the game will continue in soccer when there is still the advantage with the attacker. There could be a potential goal. In basketball even though the player might only need to lay the ball in, it gets called off and you get potential possession / freethrows which basically punishes the offence.
I don't think the concept of advantage play, as it exists in football/soccer currently, can be applied to basketball. (There is some kind of advantage mechanism already in place in basketball, the possibility of an and one, which is executed quite generously by NBA refs)
To address your points: "advantage with the attacker": In football, the advantage play works so well because a single goal can be extremely decisive and defending teams are incentivized to foul during counters, because free kicks somewhere on the pitch seldom lead to goals. In basketball, however, scoring is so ubiquitous (and fouls can result in free throws), so the advantage of a single extra score is not really there. "punishes the offence": That's actually not the case since foul calls always halt the clock or even put the shot clock back to 14. In fact, the defending team is punished (comparatively more effective than in football) as any player committing a foul can only do so 6 times before being ejected.
Hence, I don't see why such a rule would be helpful.
On September 02 2017 22:00 Twinkle Toes wrote: You mean offside?
No. If an foul occurs away from the ball the game will continue in soccer when there is still the advantage with the attacker. There could be a potential goal. In basketball even though the player might only need to lay the ball in, it gets called off and you get potential possession / freethrows which basically punishes the offence.
I don't think the concept of advantage play, as it exists in football/soccer currently, can be applied to basketball. (There is some kind of advantage mechanism already in place in basketball, the possibility of an and one, which is executed quite generously by NBA refs)
To address your points: "advantage with the attacker": In football, the advantage play works so well because a single goal can be extremely decisive and defending teams are incentivized to foul during counters, because free kicks somewhere on the pitch seldom lead to goals. In basketball, however, scoring is so ubiquitous (and fouls can result in free throws), so the advantage of a single extra score is not really there. "punishes the offence": That's actually not the case since foul calls always halt the clock or even put the shot clock back to 14. In fact, the defending team is punished (comparatively more effective than in football) as any player committing a foul can only do so 6 times before being ejected.
Hence, I don't see why such a rule would be helpful.
I guess my statement is a bit wonky in terms of basketball. Maybe this makes it more clear:
Its about the clear path foul. I personally don't want to break down a huge discussion but in my experience or in my opinion lets assume a clear path foul occurs and your team is rewarded 2 free throws and possession - I simply do not think that this is advantageous to the attacker. While I agree with you that 2 points in basketball are way less important compared to football - those might just be the two points with a 0.4 clock that you needed. Two free throws are cool - but even the best shooter might miss one, hell even two if the pressure gets to him while the initial attack would have been 2 points already.
Thats the only thing I wanted to know - if people actually are split liking/disliking it. As for why there is this rule and not another ruling - its just how it is, I dont mind. Was just curious
Excuse my double post - anyone knows when the season pass will be available for purchase? Currently the only option I see is buying for the previous season / summer season. Not for the 2017/18 season. In addition it does say "monthly" 29,99 instead of yearly for me :S
On September 02 2017 22:00 Twinkle Toes wrote: You mean offside?
No. If an foul occurs away from the ball the game will continue in soccer when there is still the advantage with the attacker. There could be a potential goal. In basketball even though the player might only need to lay the ball in, it gets called off and you get potential possession / freethrows which basically punishes the offence.
I don't think the concept of advantage play, as it exists in football/soccer currently, can be applied to basketball. (There is some kind of advantage mechanism already in place in basketball, the possibility of an and one, which is executed quite generously by NBA refs)
To address your points: "advantage with the attacker": In football, the advantage play works so well because a single goal can be extremely decisive and defending teams are incentivized to foul during counters, because free kicks somewhere on the pitch seldom lead to goals. In basketball, however, scoring is so ubiquitous (and fouls can result in free throws), so the advantage of a single extra score is not really there. "punishes the offence": That's actually not the case since foul calls always halt the clock or even put the shot clock back to 14. In fact, the defending team is punished (comparatively more effective than in football) as any player committing a foul can only do so 6 times before being ejected.
Hence, I don't see why such a rule would be helpful.
I guess my statement is a bit wonky in terms of basketball. Maybe this makes it more clear:
Its about the clear path foul. I personally don't want to break down a huge discussion but in my experience or in my opinion lets assume a clear path foul occurs and your team is rewarded 2 free throws and possession - I simply do not think that this is advantageous to the attacker. While I agree with you that 2 points in basketball are way less important compared to football - those might just be the two points with a 0.4 clock that you needed. Two free throws are cool - but even the best shooter might miss one, hell even two if the pressure gets to him while the initial attack would have been 2 points already.
Thats the only thing I wanted to know - if people actually are split liking/disliking it. As for why there is this rule and not another ruling - its just how it is, I dont mind. Was just curious
Well, I don't see the clear path rule as an important part of the game in need of tweaking, compared with, say, Hack-a-Shaq and James Harden getting bullshit calls.
Returning to the clear path foul, then, what is your proposed remedy? 1. Not calling the foul and letting the situation play out? This would encourage defenders to foul though, so you'd need to retroactively punish them (like it's possible in football). 2. Extending the definition of what constitutes a clear path foul, but retaining the punishment? Basically the position argued by the guy whose video you linked. 3. Extending the punishment of two free throws and possession, since you " [...] do not think that this is advantageous to the attacker."? They already changed it up to two free throws from one because the expected points from open dunks are higher than those of free throws. I still think that the punishment is enough, defender gets a foul + opportunity for two points + possession. Alternatively, what should be the "appropriate" punishment? Three free throws + possession? Treating the foul as a kind of goal tend + possession? Calling technicals or flagrants?
The video you posted, I am a fan of Harden. I agree that its bullshit. Actually I think it is smart by him but most situations obviously should not result in free throws. Its really akward since the rules are pretty clear and he is abusing it, maybe the wording needs to be changed.
As far as the clear path goes - I would do the following:
- have it played out - scoring two points grants two points and possession goes to defender. Player that comitted the foul now has +1 personal foul to not encourage fouling as it will put you in the bonus
- not scoring will result in the call of the foul and two freethrows as well as the +1 personal.
For me its not a big deal yet when I watched basketball I saw some games where the +2pts that were 100% got shut down and the free throws missed resulting in the team not evening out the game. So I simply found it a bit strange but not outrageous
That might have the unintended effect of causing defenders to commit harder fouls. It might become a safety issue. Even non-flagrant fouls could lead to injury.
The clear path foul used to only award one free throw. NBA teams on average score roughly every other possession so the expected value of the extra possession could be very roughly estimated as 1 point. Since free throws aren't automatic, one free throw is worth less than one point on average so it was still advantageous to foul with that rule. They have since changed that to 2 free throws. NBA games feature a lot of scoring so the percentages hew closer to their expected value.
On a potential "advantage" rule, I also think it's better if the defenders don't have to foul excessively to stop a guy from scoring. With an advange rule, defenders would have to really demolish somebody like Lebron because you're not preventing him from getting to the basket in transition otherwise. It works better in football for multiple reasons (size of the field, difficulty of the offense in general, etc...)
Is this the year the hype for the wolves becomes real with butler or am I going to have to hear more talk about how they need to grow and gain more experience?
On September 13 2017 17:27 H wrote: Just wanted to mention that Kyrie Irving might be the dumbest motherfucker I've ever seen given a microphone. Jesus christ.
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