Didn't this happen before? Should've given Lynch the chance tbh.
The defense in that situation was quite a bit different than it was on the final play, actually.
They rushed 6 on that play versus 7 on the final play.
Also, that play is probably a big part of the reason that they ran the play they did. Gave a similar look with a different result. This is another reason I think PA is the best call in this situation.
On February 03 2015 15:28 DannyJ wrote: Speaking of Wilson, overall he has the least amount of criticism imaginable for a QB that threw a pick to lose a Super Bowl.
Tom Brady threw 2 picks, and yet is being hailed as possible GOAT now, and won MVP, the only difference being one more pick and on the winning side. And him being on the winning side came down to a rookie playing on the defense which he doesn't even play in. Lets not forget one of brady's picks cost a TD AND conceded possesion, Wilson only cost a TD, also Wilson shouldn't have been in that position in the first place. Unlike brady's TD missing pick there was a receiver in sight, Lockette, who should have done better than bounce off a rookie. Even if Wilson throws it perfectly, which obviously he didnt, Lockette still has to make 1~1/2yard with both Butler AND Brandon Browner in the way, so its not even a necessarily a TD, so something went wrong there too. Brady obviously was awesome but the attempt to try and trash Wilson, even people going as far as defending Pete Carroll's play call lol, is crazy
EDIT:
On February 03 2015 22:48 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote: + Show Spoiler +
On February 03 2015 07:35 Jibba wrote: They had plenty of reasons to go for it.
Just because ex-NFL players (typically idiots, even when it comes to football) don't like it doesn't mean the OC made a mistake. He got them the look they needed to win the game, and if Wilson were a better QB they would have.
Lynch is hard to take down but he's not the goal line beast everyone is thinking - there was nothing automatic about a 1 yard run up the middle and the stats prove it.
Watch the whole last series again, and you'll see most of the blame should be put in Wilson. He horribly mismanaged the clock and then put the ball in the worst possible spot without recognizing Butler coming in.
No one wants to put the blame on the franchise QB they're about to throw money at, but he really cost them and dumb luck didn't bail him out this time.
Well, he didn't mismanage the clock, really. At least, I didn't think so. That's a very difficult situation to play in. On one hand, he has to burn as much time as he can, so that they don't give the Patriots another shot at scoring. On the other hand, if they're not moving down field fast enough, he has to make sure he doesn't run out of time. As it stands, they would have left the Pats about 20 seconds and two time outs. I'd take an 80 yard field with that defense, feeling confident that they wouldn't get more than 3.
That said, you're right about the pass. It was off target. If the ball is 42" to the right, it's a TD, or they're right on the goal line. I think you're wrong in saying that it wasn't a mistake, though. Given the run that Lynch had the play before, I'd run him again right there. The pass has too high of a potential to get messed up. But, I will say this: I think it was a mistake because I don't think that Wilson is a very good pocket passer. He's incredible when plays break down, and his WRs adjust their routes probably better than any group in the league, but there is not a chance in hell I would have put the game in his hands down there. I don't think that I've ever said that I think he's a high level passer on here, and I know that I've argued this with friends and coworkers countless times. I've said this since the middle of last season, and I've added that I think he'll have the shortest career of the good, young QBs in the league right now because of his inability to pass from the pocket, and what appears to be a lack of development there. If nothing else, he really is too short to pass from the pocket effectively. The game plan for Wilson is always to stop the rush and contain him to the pocket. Why? Because he's not very effective from the pocket. That's easier said than done, but Carroll handed it to the Patriots on a fucking silver platter on that play. He intentionally put his QB in a position that least utilizes his skill set, and actually highlights his weakness. That's why it's a mistake.
I just watched the play like six times (heart breaking every time, too), and I think that if Wilson is a better QB, it's a very good play call. The Patriots are definitely rushing 7, but one LB comes off of the blitz to cover Lynch on the flat route. If the ball is placed at the right hash, then 21 has to go through another DB and WR to get at the ball: the pick was set perfectly. A brilliant call would have had Wilson faking the hand off to Lynch up the gut, keeping the same setup otherwise. Why? It would have diverted the DBs attention just enough that the pass could have been slightly off and it would not have made a difference. They were expecting a run, which is why this was a good call, but that they only had to recognize that it wasn't a run made it too easy for the DBs, imo. I think PA is the most underused strategy at the goal line, especially from teams that have powerful HBs. I know there's an inherent risk that the D won't bite, and that they'll take a sack, but they had 20 seconds and a time out to handle a 3-5 yard loss. It makes the passing game a little easier, too, since it forces the DBs to cover more field.
I would have liked a back shoulder to the tall WR whose name I can't remember because he never caught a ball before the Super Bowl too. A fade is the obvious throw, so the DB is probably going to play off of him a bit and wait for the jump ball. It's a simple read though. If the DB comes down, throw the fade, if the DB stays high, throw the back shoulder. If he gets doubled, throw it out of bounds and play another down.
I don't know... the only thing I'm sure of is that all of our discussions will never make a difference, and that fucker Tom Brady got his fourth. I hope you're happy, DK! (If you're reading this.) And I know that I am sad as can be over that.
Your right that the call had the advantage of catching them out, the issue here is that the element of surprise does not a) outweigh the risks, b) Outweigh Beast-Mode having 3 attempts to make 1/2 a fucking yard!
On February 03 2015 15:28 DannyJ wrote: Speaking of Wilson, overall he has the least amount of criticism imaginable for a QB that threw a pick to lose a Super Bowl.
Tom Brady threw 2 picks, and yet is being hailed as possible GOAT now, and won MVP, the only difference being one more pick and on the winning side. And him being on the winning side came down to a rookie playing on the defense which he doesn't even play in. Lets not forget one of brady's picks cost a TD AND conceded possesion, Wilson only cost a TD, also Wilson shouldn't have been in that position in the first place. Unlike brady's TD missing pick there was a receiver in sight, Lockette, who should have done better than bounce off a rookie. Even if Wilson throws it perfectly, which obviously he didnt, Lockette still has to make 1~1/2yard with both Butler AND Brandon Browner in the way, so its not even a necessarily a TD, so something went wrong there too. Brady obviously was awesome but the attempt to try and trash Wilson, even people going as far as defending Pete Carroll's play call lol, is crazy
On February 03 2015 22:48 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote: + Show Spoiler +
On February 03 2015 07:35 Jibba wrote: They had plenty of reasons to go for it.
Just because ex-NFL players (typically idiots, even when it comes to football) don't like it doesn't mean the OC made a mistake. He got them the look they needed to win the game, and if Wilson were a better QB they would have.
Lynch is hard to take down but he's not the goal line beast everyone is thinking - there was nothing automatic about a 1 yard run up the middle and the stats prove it.
Watch the whole last series again, and you'll see most of the blame should be put in Wilson. He horribly mismanaged the clock and then put the ball in the worst possible spot without recognizing Butler coming in.
No one wants to put the blame on the franchise QB they're about to throw money at, but he really cost them and dumb luck didn't bail him out this time.
Well, he didn't mismanage the clock, really. At least, I didn't think so. That's a very difficult situation to play in. On one hand, he has to burn as much time as he can, so that they don't give the Patriots another shot at scoring. On the other hand, if they're not moving down field fast enough, he has to make sure he doesn't run out of time. As it stands, they would have left the Pats about 20 seconds and two time outs. I'd take an 80 yard field with that defense, feeling confident that they wouldn't get more than 3.
That said, you're right about the pass. It was off target. If the ball is 42" to the right, it's a TD, or they're right on the goal line. I think you're wrong in saying that it wasn't a mistake, though. Given the run that Lynch had the play before, I'd run him again right there. The pass has too high of a potential to get messed up. But, I will say this: I think it was a mistake because I don't think that Wilson is a very good pocket passer. He's incredible when plays break down, and his WRs adjust their routes probably better than any group in the league, but there is not a chance in hell I would have put the game in his hands down there. I don't think that I've ever said that I think he's a high level passer on here, and I know that I've argued this with friends and coworkers countless times. I've said this since the middle of last season, and I've added that I think he'll have the shortest career of the good, young QBs in the league right now because of his inability to pass from the pocket, and what appears to be a lack of development there. If nothing else, he really is too short to pass from the pocket effectively. The game plan for Wilson is always to stop the rush and contain him to the pocket. Why? Because he's not very effective from the pocket. That's easier said than done, but Carroll handed it to the Patriots on a fucking silver platter on that play. He intentionally put his QB in a position that least utilizes his skill set, and actually highlights his weakness. That's why it's a mistake.
I just watched the play like six times (heart breaking every time, too), and I think that if Wilson is a better QB, it's a very good play call. The Patriots are definitely rushing 7, but one LB comes off of the blitz to cover Lynch on the flat route. If the ball is placed at the right hash, then 21 has to go through another DB and WR to get at the ball: the pick was set perfectly. A brilliant call would have had Wilson faking the hand off to Lynch up the gut, keeping the same setup otherwise. Why? It would have diverted the DBs attention just enough that the pass could have been slightly off and it would not have made a difference. They were expecting a run, which is why this was a good call, but that they only had to recognize that it wasn't a run made it too easy for the DBs, imo. I think PA is the most underused strategy at the goal line, especially from teams that have powerful HBs. I know there's an inherent risk that the D won't bite, and that they'll take a sack, but they had 20 seconds and a time out to handle a 3-5 yard loss. It makes the passing game a little easier, too, since it forces the DBs to cover more field.
I would have liked a back shoulder to the tall WR whose name I can't remember because he never caught a ball before the Super Bowl too. A fade is the obvious throw, so the DB is probably going to play off of him a bit and wait for the jump ball. It's a simple read though. If the DB comes down, throw the fade, if the DB stays high, throw the back shoulder. If he gets doubled, throw it out of bounds and play another down.
I don't know... the only thing I'm sure of is that all of our discussions will never make a difference, and that fucker Tom Brady got his fourth. I hope you're happy, DK! (If you're reading this.) And I know that I am sad as can be over that.
Your right that the call had the advantage of catching them out, the issue here is that the element of surprise does not a) outweigh the risks, b) Outweigh Beast-Mode having 3 attempts to make 1/2 a fucking yard!
It was a full yard AND with 30 seconds and only 1 TO they only get 2 attempts.
As others are saying it wasn't a bad call - it was poorly played by the WR and QB and perfectly played by the CB.
It's hard to even argue it was the wrong call when it gave them a great look and (barring the almost freak INT) gave them the best chance to get 3 plays (including Lynch on 3rd and 4th downs with the TO to prepare for 4th down).
On February 03 2015 07:35 Jibba wrote: They had plenty of reasons to go for it.
Just because ex-NFL players (typically idiots, even when it comes to football) don't like it doesn't mean the OC made a mistake. He got them the look they needed to win the game, and if Wilson were a better QB they would have.
Lynch is hard to take down but he's not the goal line beast everyone is thinking - there was nothing automatic about a 1 yard run up the middle and the stats prove it.
Watch the whole last series again, and you'll see most of the blame should be put in Wilson. He horribly mismanaged the clock and then put the ball in the worst possible spot without recognizing Butler coming in.
No one wants to put the blame on the franchise QB they're about to throw money at, but he really cost them and dumb luck didn't bail him out this time.
For some reason, you've really been a Wilson hater recently.
The fact is that he has reliable stats, is extremely confident with the ball, making good decisions and accurate throws, and is great at running the ball without being a liability like RG3.
Wilson is a good QB, even if you want to be a hater. He's not like Brady or Rodgers, but he's definitely a quality QB. He didn't mismanaged the clock at all on that last drive and he was actually playing fairly well. The last play was a really bad throw but that entire drive was horribly managed from a playcalling perspective, which lands on the coaching staff.
I'm saying it exactly for the reason stated below your post. He's about to get paid, and he just threw a game-losing interception in the SB. We know he's not a great pocket passer, but even in that situation he had a huge passing lane provided by his OL.
The clock mismanagement was on both him and Carroll. You can say "he's got to listen to his coach" but we've seen plenty of other young QBs like Stafford or young Brady make that decision for themselves, at least to get to the line quickly.
And Wilson and Lynch are the only two Seahawks I can stand. I hate Pete Carroll and would love to rip into him, but I don't think he or Bevell fucked up on the play call. On the clock management after Lynch's run, yes.
Jibba, how was the clock mismanaged? They were intentionally letting time run off of it, and they managed to save a time out. I think they had to burn one pretty early in the half too, didn't they? I'm not sure where this clock mismangement idea is coming from right now.
I'm completely at a loss for how the drive, up to that point, was poorly called too (Stratos_speAr said that). How? Can someone please qualify these statements? In my opinion, it was well-played, and here's why:
They got to the one yard-line, ran the clock to about 30 seconds passed the ball. Logically, they're not thinking they'll get picked off. They figure for an incomplete, at worst, thereby leaving about 23 seconds. They'd come out in the same formation on 3rd down, and although the Patriots probably sell out on the run, they do not know what to expect; maybe the DBs and/or LBs hesitate for half of a second, giving Lynch enough room to plow into the end zone, leaving maybe 17-18 seconds on the clock for Brady. If they run on third, and don't get the touchdown, they have a time out in their pocket to stop the clock.
If they complete the pass on second down and fail to score, they can either call the time out, or hurry to run another play. Irrespective of how they use their time out, there are about 20 seconds left to run two plays if the pass is thrown to the right team.
How is that mismanaging the game? And how is the drive mismanaged from a play calling perspective when they're at the one yard line with 40 seconds to go?
On February 03 2015 15:28 DannyJ wrote: Speaking of Wilson, overall he has the least amount of criticism imaginable for a QB that threw a pick to lose a Super Bowl.
Tom Brady threw 2 picks, and yet is being hailed as possible GOAT now, and won MVP, the only difference being one more pick and on the winning side. And him being on the winning side came down to a rookie playing on the defense which he doesn't even play in. Lets not forget one of brady's picks cost a TD AND conceded possesion, Wilson only cost a TD, also Wilson shouldn't have been in that position in the first place. Unlike brady's TD missing pick there was a receiver in sight, Lockette, who should have done better than bounce off a rookie. Even if Wilson throws it perfectly, which obviously he didnt, Lockette still has to make 1~1/2yard with both Butler AND Brandon Browner in the way, so its not even a necessarily a TD, so something went wrong there too. Brady obviously was awesome but the attempt to try and trash Wilson, even people going as far as defending Pete Carroll's play call lol, is crazy
EDIT:
On February 03 2015 22:48 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote: + Show Spoiler +
On February 03 2015 07:35 Jibba wrote: They had plenty of reasons to go for it.
Just because ex-NFL players (typically idiots, even when it comes to football) don't like it doesn't mean the OC made a mistake. He got them the look they needed to win the game, and if Wilson were a better QB they would have.
Lynch is hard to take down but he's not the goal line beast everyone is thinking - there was nothing automatic about a 1 yard run up the middle and the stats prove it.
Watch the whole last series again, and you'll see most of the blame should be put in Wilson. He horribly mismanaged the clock and then put the ball in the worst possible spot without recognizing Butler coming in.
No one wants to put the blame on the franchise QB they're about to throw money at, but he really cost them and dumb luck didn't bail him out this time.
Well, he didn't mismanage the clock, really. At least, I didn't think so. That's a very difficult situation to play in. On one hand, he has to burn as much time as he can, so that they don't give the Patriots another shot at scoring. On the other hand, if they're not moving down field fast enough, he has to make sure he doesn't run out of time. As it stands, they would have left the Pats about 20 seconds and two time outs. I'd take an 80 yard field with that defense, feeling confident that they wouldn't get more than 3.
That said, you're right about the pass. It was off target. If the ball is 42" to the right, it's a TD, or they're right on the goal line. I think you're wrong in saying that it wasn't a mistake, though. Given the run that Lynch had the play before, I'd run him again right there. The pass has too high of a potential to get messed up. But, I will say this: I think it was a mistake because I don't think that Wilson is a very good pocket passer. He's incredible when plays break down, and his WRs adjust their routes probably better than any group in the league, but there is not a chance in hell I would have put the game in his hands down there. I don't think that I've ever said that I think he's a high level passer on here, and I know that I've argued this with friends and coworkers countless times. I've said this since the middle of last season, and I've added that I think he'll have the shortest career of the good, young QBs in the league right now because of his inability to pass from the pocket, and what appears to be a lack of development there. If nothing else, he really is too short to pass from the pocket effectively. The game plan for Wilson is always to stop the rush and contain him to the pocket. Why? Because he's not very effective from the pocket. That's easier said than done, but Carroll handed it to the Patriots on a fucking silver platter on that play. He intentionally put his QB in a position that least utilizes his skill set, and actually highlights his weakness. That's why it's a mistake.
I just watched the play like six times (heart breaking every time, too), and I think that if Wilson is a better QB, it's a very good play call. The Patriots are definitely rushing 7, but one LB comes off of the blitz to cover Lynch on the flat route. If the ball is placed at the right hash, then 21 has to go through another DB and WR to get at the ball: the pick was set perfectly. A brilliant call would have had Wilson faking the hand off to Lynch up the gut, keeping the same setup otherwise. Why? It would have diverted the DBs attention just enough that the pass could have been slightly off and it would not have made a difference. They were expecting a run, which is why this was a good call, but that they only had to recognize that it wasn't a run made it too easy for the DBs, imo. I think PA is the most underused strategy at the goal line, especially from teams that have powerful HBs. I know there's an inherent risk that the D won't bite, and that they'll take a sack, but they had 20 seconds and a time out to handle a 3-5 yard loss. It makes the passing game a little easier, too, since it forces the DBs to cover more field.
I would have liked a back shoulder to the tall WR whose name I can't remember because he never caught a ball before the Super Bowl too. A fade is the obvious throw, so the DB is probably going to play off of him a bit and wait for the jump ball. It's a simple read though. If the DB comes down, throw the fade, if the DB stays high, throw the back shoulder. If he gets doubled, throw it out of bounds and play another down.
I don't know... the only thing I'm sure of is that all of our discussions will never make a difference, and that fucker Tom Brady got his fourth. I hope you're happy, DK! (If you're reading this.) And I know that I am sad as can be over that.
Your right that the call had the advantage of catching them out, the issue here is that the element of surprise does not a) outweigh the risks, b) Outweigh Beast-Mode having 3 attempts to make 1/2 a fucking yard!
It was a full yard AND with 30 seconds and only 1 TO they only get 2 attempts.
As others are saying it wasn't a bad call - it was poorly played by the WR and QB and perfectly played by the CB.
It's hard to even argue it was the wrong call when it gave them a great look and (barring the almost freak INT) gave them the best chance to get 3 plays (including Lynch on 3rd and 4th downs with the TO to prepare for 4th down).
It's not a bad call if the QB is better, but he's not, so it's kind of a bad call. It's about knowing your personnel, and how to best utilize it. Carroll failed to put his players in the best possible situation on that play.
If so many of us here can so easily critique Wilson's pocket passing, I think we can all agree that Carroll and co. see that weakness even better than us. It's the wrong call because it's the wrong guy throwing the ball. When the game is on the line, you let your best players make plays, and their best player wasn't even used as a decoy.
On February 03 2015 08:46 oneofthem wrote: it was no gain/intercepted because it actually never surprised the patriots at all.
“It’s man-to-man, you stack receivers like this,” he said, putting one fist in front of the other. “And boom!, you try to pick the guy. They had a good play, but we knew them, we watched them for two weeks.”
Butler had seen the stacked-receiver look in practice, where he’d been beaten on the play by Josh Boyce. “I didn’t let it happen again,” he said.
So what tipped Butler off on a quick slant in a situation where everyone was expecting run?
“They called goal-line three receivers; goal-line usually has two receivers,” he said. “You still could pass either way, but three receivers? That’s kind of letting you know something. I’m a pass defender first, and I just jumped the route.
“I don’t even remember who I was on. 83? I just knew it was stack and I jumped the route and that was the ball game.”
Honestly, you don't even need the explanation from the Butler. You can see it very easily without it: they dropped 5 into coverage. If they feared the run on that play, they would have had 7-8 committed to the run. I am not one to break down film at all, but it was very clear to me (after watching the replay a couple of times) that they were anticipating a throw. That said, it doesn't matter how they anticipate it if Wilson puts it on the guy's chest instead of where he'd need to stretch for it... and the WR should damn well have stretched for it, he may have knocked the ball down.
He's probably talking about the deep shots they took at 2 minutes instead of intermediate throws?
They burned a timeout (1 play after the 2 minute warning) and 45~ seconds to go 11 yards. Maybe we're just used to seeing a normal 2 minute offense work methodically down the field, and they weren't leaving much time for that. They were basically just going boom or bust, and Kearse made that ridiculous play.
EDIT: Actually both timeouts were pretty bad. Watching it again, that was just a horrible 2 minute offense. 2 minutes, 3 timeouts from the Pats' 49. You've got to do more than hope for lucky bombs.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--60BxHW7h--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/n6d2zx9kxkyuoktyogku.gif)
