EPT2015 UFC/MMA Discussion Thread - Page 72
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CorsairHero
Canada9491 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16710 Posts
On November 20 2015 06:29 Jetaap wrote: if I remember well it ended being 950k buys or something like that. 825,000 for UFC 189. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16710 Posts
it would not surprise me at all if someone from Jackson-Winkeljohn got in Ronda's ear JUST BEFORE the weigh-in.. and that is why she went ballistic during the weigh in and on instagram. it wouldn't surprise me at all if they were threatening to out details of her relationship with Travis Browne...and then Ronda flew off the handle. Ariel and Winklejohn are laughing about how they fucked with ronda's mind at about 90 seconds.  | ||
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mikodrak
Czech Republic78 Posts
I got into watching MMA about three years ago. I rewatched most of the great matches and saw all the UFC's during the last two years. From my POW it seems like grappling and BJJ is on a decline. There are currently not many finishes by armbars, triangles and such. In case there is a "grappling finish", it seems to be by a rear naked choke. Otherwise, a lot of ground finishes are ground and pound. Do you feel the same way? Why do you think this happened? Is it because fighters learned to how to defend these? Is the ground game just a requirement (that you're able to defend) and because of that, it's becoming less powerful at the highest levels cuz people are more familiar with it? No offense here at all, I'd just love to know what you guys think about that and I'm hoping to get a good answer to help me understand. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16710 Posts
most guys have to know several martial arts disciplines plus boxing, kick-boxing and some wrestling to get into the top 8 of their weight class. defensive BJJ is a lot easier for these multi-discipline jack-of-all-trades guys to master. they can nullify offensive grappling techniques and they sort of stop at that level; it takes way too much of their limited time to become really good at the offensive aspects of BJJ. in short.. defense is a lot easier to get pretty good at than offense. so we now have many top guys on the roster who are basically "all defense" when it comes to grappling and submissions. one of the best JJ-based submission artists in the world ( Rousimar Palhares ) keeps getting himself DQ-ed by holding his submissions too long. the UFC also cuts grappling specialists like Jake Shields when they are easily top 15 in the world in their division because they view his style as tough to sell to fans. i don't know if right-now this very second if Jake Shields is a top-15 in the world guy. However, the day Shields was cut by the UFC he was a top 15 guy. as a dumb fan who doesn't know much ( the exact customer the UFC wants ) Shield's style puts me to sleep. maybe if i understood BJJ and wrestling better.. maybe i would think Shield's is fascinating. The UFC ain't going to spend even $1 of their marketing budget trying to turn guys like me into being even slightly knowledgeable about BJJ, Wrestling and Grappling. The UFC just wants morons like me to look in awe and wonder when a Holly Holm head kick removes the champion from the consciosness of this earth. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On November 25 2015 00:49 mikodrak wrote: Hi Guys! Honest question here. I got into watching MMA about three years ago. I rewatched most of the great matches and saw all the UFC's during the last two years. From my POW it seems like grappling and BJJ is on a decline. There are currently not many finishes by armbars, triangles and such. In case there is a "grappling finish", it seems to be by a rear naked choke. Otherwise, a lot of ground finishes are ground and pound. Do you feel the same way? Why do you think this happened? Is it because fighters learned to how to defend these? Is the ground game just a requirement (that you're able to defend) and because of that, it's becoming less powerful at the highest levels cuz people are more familiar with it? No offense here at all, I'd just love to know what you guys think about that and I'm hoping to get a good answer to help me understand. Disclaimer: MMA-Fan since Pride days, also a BJJ dude. The judges favor top control when it comes to the ground, as it's seen as a more "dominant" position. All the top wrestlers are doing great in the UFC; DC, Chad Mendes, Edgar, etc etc. BJJ's cornerstone has always been working off the back (guard), however due to the way judging works, it's almost impossible for judges to ever give a point off a guy who works off his back (mostly due to shitty boxing judging system, and god awful state-commissioned judges, who don't do martial arts). It also has to do with the fact that UFC tends to cut "boring" fighters. BJJ can be pretty boring to watch in MMA, it doesn't have the excitement of explosive striking, or top control. BJJ knowledge for casuals is god-awful too. Pretty much all the casual fan base thinks you can just "get out" of someone's guard, as if you can just stand up in some dude's guard and walk away, and have very little idea of how ground grappling works. The cage also makes it difficult to work out positions, as the cage provides pretty restricted ground movements. We saw a lot less of this problem in Pride due to the boxing ring, vs cage. Timelimit and position reset favors the striker. If someone plays guard, the ref will automatically stand it up if the fighter standing doesn't want to approach into it. Also round by round resets the possible dominant ground position someone might get at the end of the round. As far as modern BJJ guys, Damian Maia is a key guy to watch out for. He's the gatekeeper for 170, and 185 for top 10 guys. Also there's a ton of super elite BJJ guys that are at the tail end of their BJJ career, and lookign to move into MMA. Garry Tonan, Kron Gracie, Ryan Hall, Roger Gracie, etc. etc. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16710 Posts
the first 5 minutes of the podcast is just filled with Sonnen yapping away with advertising so you can skip that. GSP is taking Condit over Lawler. A comeback is partly based on whether or not GSP can keep the fun part of MMA in his career. if its UFC fights become all stress and no fun he probably wants to avoid a comeback. http://www.podcastone.com/pg/jsp/program/episode.jsp?programID=706&pid=568435 | ||
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Ultraliskhero
Canada249 Posts
On November 25 2015 00:49 mikodrak wrote: Hi Guys! Honest question here. I got into watching MMA about three years ago. I rewatched most of the great matches and saw all the UFC's during the last two years. From my POW it seems like grappling and BJJ is on a decline. There are currently not many finishes by armbars, triangles and such. In case there is a "grappling finish", it seems to be by a rear naked choke. Otherwise, a lot of ground finishes are ground and pound. Do you feel the same way? Why do you think this happened? Is it because fighters learned to how to defend these? Is the ground game just a requirement (that you're able to defend) and because of that, it's becoming less powerful at the highest levels cuz people are more familiar with it? No offense here at all, I'd just love to know what you guys think about that and I'm hoping to get a good answer to help me understand. There's definitely less armbar and triangle finishes nowadays in the UFC. On top of that, many of the RNC finishes come after a guy has pretty much already been beat, either after he got dominated or was hurt from strikes. I agree with the previous posts on the reason for this. That fans/UFC like exciting standup guys, and that judging tend to not favour BJJ in many situations. All of this gives the incentive for guys to just work on their grappling defence, while spending most of their time training standup. Also in many situations, going for a submission puts you at risk of losing a good position, so many guys will rather keep their position than go for the submission. Sometimes you'll see guys only go for a submission near the end of a round for this reason. However, I think you shouldn't always evaluate grappling in MMA by how many submissions people are getting. Perhaps the essence of grappling/BJJ is not all in the submissions, but in obtaining/keeping dominant position, and escaping bad positions. If Demian Maia uses his BJJ to mount a guy and pounds his face to get a TKO victory, the key was still his BJJ that got him to the dominant position. There's definitely still many good BJJ guys in MMA. The Ireland card a few weeks ago had Smolka vs Holohan that had some nice grappling exchanges. I'm hoping to see some good grappling from Maia vs Nelson on the Mcgregor Aldo card. Also Rockhold has some solid grappling aswell, plus Jacare is on that card too. (dam its stacked) | ||
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CorsairHero
Canada9491 Posts
conor is an american now rofl rofl reebok is so pathetic | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23237 Posts
On November 26 2015 07:46 Ultraliskhero wrote: There's definitely less armbar and triangle finishes nowadays in the UFC. On top of that, many of the RNC finishes come after a guy has pretty much already been beat, either after he got dominated or was hurt from strikes. I agree with the previous posts on the reason for this. That fans/UFC like exciting standup guys, and that judging tend to not favour BJJ in many situations. All of this gives the incentive for guys to just work on their grappling defence, while spending most of their time training standup. Also in many situations, going for a submission puts you at risk of losing a good position, so many guys will rather keep their position than go for the submission. Sometimes you'll see guys only go for a submission near the end of a round for this reason. However, I think you shouldn't always evaluate grappling in MMA by how many submissions people are getting. Perhaps the essence of grappling/BJJ is not all in the submissions, but in obtaining/keeping dominant position, and escaping bad positions. If Demian Maia uses his BJJ to mount a guy and pounds his face to get a TKO victory, the key was still his BJJ that got him to the dominant position. There's definitely still many good BJJ guys in MMA. The Ireland card a few weeks ago had Smolka vs Holohan that had some nice grappling exchanges. I'm hoping to see some good grappling from Maia vs Nelson on the Mcgregor Aldo card. Also Rockhold has some solid grappling aswell, plus Jacare is on that card too. (dam its stacked) That's a good point about the ground work in general. A lot of the positioning for striking on the ground comes from BJJ. Judging is so damn terrible not sure how much longer people can pretend there's not something terribly wrong going on with all that. Fan's have gotten better (cheering guard passes, as opposed to not even realizing someone had been choked out) but people love their KO punches and kicks. Funny GSP came up as he had exciting fights when he was coming up but after he secured the belt his lay and pray fights became the most boring around imo. I don't think he's coming back because he would want to win (to go from arguably the GOAT to the official GOAT) and the fans would want a fight. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16710 Posts
On November 26 2015 10:40 JimmiC wrote: I think the Serra fight taught him his weakness. His chin, so he realized, if I can dominate them without taking punishment why not. He had heart though, anyone who isn't sure on that can check out the Hendrix fight. he covers this issue extensively in the November 24 interview with Sonnen that i posted.\ if you 're a GSP fan i recommend the interview .. it is very insightful. | ||
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mikodrak
Czech Republic78 Posts
For me, as a "casual" fan, it was definitely more fun to see guys punch/kick their way to victory, as it's something that's kind of natural for a like-me-audience to understand. Anyway, once I got more into it, I've gotta say that grappling is really exciting, and the actual danger of a perfect ground game makes it exciting even more. And that's what MMA should be about, I guess. More styles, more options, more great moments. That said, I get that it's all business, and it's much more mainstream to watch Holm head kick the shit out of Rousey than to see two guys just "roll on the ground" for fifteen minutes. Also, the points about grappling being not that effective when you consider the rules or the time you need to get really good at offense explains a lot; as well as BJJ being behind the takedowns that lead to victories. Thanks again for educating me! I learned something today. TL is just an awesome community. And sorry for my bad english  | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23237 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16710 Posts
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Hier
2391 Posts
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CorsairHero
Canada9491 Posts
On November 27 2015 12:17 Hier wrote: That's quite an impressive analysis. By the way, who is Holly fighting at 2:00? 'Cos that looks like a guy. Katie Merrill | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23237 Posts
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SkyyCatt
Canada1 Post
On November 25 2015 00:49 mikodrak wrote: Hi Guys! Honest question here. I got into watching MMA about three years ago. I rewatched most of the great matches and saw all the UFC's during the last two years. From my POW it seems like grappling and BJJ is on a decline. There are currently not many finishes by armbars, triangles and such. In case there is a "grappling finish", it seems to be by a rear naked choke. Otherwise, a lot of ground finishes are ground and pound. Do you feel the same way? Why do you think this happened? Is it because fighters learned to how to defend these? Is the ground game just a requirement (that you're able to defend) and because of that, it's becoming less powerful at the highest levels cuz people are more familiar with it? No offense here at all, I'd just love to know what you guys think about that and I'm hoping to get a good answer to help me understand. Disclaimer: BJJ White belt 3 years and long time fan When I first started watching it the knockouts were exciting but the ground game was really what got me hooked. In terms of whether BJJ is on a decline you can see it in two different ways. One which was mentioned before, the defensive ability and point scoring, which give the fighter on to more of an advantage. The other one is that the level of the fighter's BJJ background may not be as high as it is in BJJ circles for obvious reasons. Lets take Demian Maia for example. When he first started most of his fights were won by submission because he cam from that background of BJJ competitions. This gave him an edge over everyone else because he could actually attack off of his back and make opponents think twice about going to the ground with him. As the sport grew BJJ became a prerequisite if you really wanted to stay save against a guy like Demian Maia who saw it all. To become at that sort of level at anything would take years so just being able to defend seemed like the much better option to some fighters. Then we have some fighters that have BJJ black belts but have never really competed in well know international tournaments.This time we will take Kenny Florian as an example; He has compete in BJJ tournaments but not big name international ones. His jiujitsu game, while still head and shoulders above most fighters in the UFC, had trouble against really good wrestlers or even better jiujitsu guys. If more jiujitsu practitioners that have competed at the level where Demian Maia has and been successful then we can see a resurgence of submissions. PS. I love KenFlo and Maia but I just used them because their names came to my head first. | ||
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SF-Fork
Russian Federation1401 Posts
I watch less and less MMA events nowadays, as standup kickboxing seems to be the way to go. If there are no punch-takedown combinations or sub attempts I usually fast forward. Some blame the rules, but I have to agree with the idea of defensive BJJ being easier to master. As a competition purple belt, it is not that I have a hard time grappling vs pro MMA guys, it is that our matches or sparring sessions are always boring. I want to engage in complex guards which they try to avoid, and they usually want to stall, keep it tight and explode if I overcommit. If they do not let me establish funky guards and I do not over-commit, basically nothing happens. Boring as hell. | ||
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